From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 29-JUN-1996 06:32:16.34 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606D" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 06:11:37 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:04:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: References Fred Leise wrote: >I'm indexing a biography and under the heading for the subject have many >sub-headings with many sub-sub-headings. > >I know that the standard format for leading readers to subheadings is "see xx >under yy." However, is there any better format for references from one >subheading to another subheading, bother under the same heading? Many years ago, before I knew the "correct" method to do this, I created my own format: Woolf, Virginia relationship with Leonard Woolf [many subsubheadings] -------separated by many other subheadings romantic life ^see also^ relationship with Leonard Woolf OR Woolf, Virginia relationship with mother, 12-14, 22, 24, 36; ^see also^ relationship with parents ....other subheadings relationships with parents, 11, 15-18, 25, 118; ^see also^ relationship with mother The ^see also^ was all lower case and preceded by a semicolon, to distinguish it from a regular ^See also^ cross-reference, which was preceded by a period. I assumed the index user would figure out the difference, just by scanning the subentries. Then I found out this was not done by anyone else, so I stopped. I still think it's a decent answer to the problem, however, and one that takes up less space than repeating the main heading. But I feel less willing to "make up" my own rules! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: References Elinor, Thanks for letting me know how you solved the problem of see also references to other subheads within a main heading. I like your solution of using lower case and introducing the phrase with a semicolon rather than a period. And after all, things only became "rules" because so many people used the same solution that it became the norm. I say we resurrect your method and make it the rule for referring to other subheadings under one heading. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:55:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: References Fred writes: > >I know that the standard format for leading readers to subheadings is "see xx >under yy." However, is there any better format for references from one >subheading to another subheading, bother under the same heading? Hi Fred. I do this only in the strange government document indexes I do (pages of subheads down to three levels). The form for it is "see xx (the subheading) above (or below." Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 03:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: expanding Hello out there all you full timers, I have been working as a part-time freelance indexer and editor for the last 4 years, and for 3 years before that I was an in-house editor in a college textbook division of a good-sized pub. company. I am presently faced with the prossible (probable and possible) need to go full time. Because I have been working only part time, I never really had to worry about expanding my business, and was pretty casual about contacts(but never about indexes). I have a few regulars who keep me moderately busy, but I am going to need to expand. Do any of you have any advice on looking, advertising, etc.? I would appreciate it very much if you could share it with me. Feel free to email me directly if you think no one else on the list would like to hear it. Thanks very much, Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services San Diego, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:06:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --OAA106696.835381135/rs8.loc.gov Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: --OAA106696.835381135/rs8.loc.gov Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-ID: Content-Description: Return-Path: sand@loc.gov Received: from localhost (sand@localhost) by rs8.loc.gov (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA130759 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:18:55 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:18:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Sam Andrusko Reply-To: Sam Andrusko To: index-l@bingvbm.cc.binghampton.edu Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri In-Reply-To: <960621101318_139845219@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, Larry and Dave and everyone else, Thanks for the replies. Spent my lunch hour in the law library looking up copyright law and think I am half-right (as usual). Whether one considers an index or a thesaurus to be merely a "factual compilation" or a non-literary work (similar to a history or biography), what appears to be copyrightable in these cases is limited to the "particular selection or arrangement, not to the facts themselves," which sounds like hair-splitting to me. (Fortunately, I doubt if anyone would ever steal an index or get rich if he did so, so we have nothing to worry about). Dave, You mentioned propietary thesauri which cannot be used without permission. Can you give me an example? If I purchase a thesaurus in book form and use it to process (index/abstract/summarize) a certain kind of material, how does the copyright holder of the published thesaurus know I am using it to begin with, even if I were producing an online product? Does one have to sign an agreement before purchasing the thesaurus? Jeesh, and I thought software companies were pirates for "licensing" their products to businesses. Wonder if it (a case involving a proprietary thesaurus) would hold up in court. Larry, I agree 100% that indexing is creative, intellectually demanding, etc. and results in a new and (quasi) separate work, but I guess what I saw in first contemplating this (in light of the Supreme Court decision) was an arrangement of non-unique words and therefore more a "sweat of the brow" kind of work--but the research I did during lunch allows me to see the "creative, original" arrangement and selection side of the argument too. But as I said above, I doubt if there is much infringement involving indexes to begin with. (There were none in any indexes of the books I looked at). Cheers! Sam Andrusko FYI: The Supreme Court case was: Feist Publications, Inc. vs. Rural Telephone Service Co. and can be found in 111 S.Ct. 1282 (1991). --OAA106696.835381135/rs8.loc.gov-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:42:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Hamilton, Beth" Subject: FW: CD-ROM Text Software This came over the tech writing list. I thought you'd be interested too, so I've cross-posted this with Tim's permission. Beth Hamilton elham@dbsoftware.com <> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:49:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Future Conference FYI Just for everybody's information The 1997 Annual Conference of the Association of American Publishers, Professional/Scholarly Publishing Division, will take place in the DC area, on February 12-14, 1997, at the Loew's L'Enfant Plaza Hotel, Washington DC. The postcard I got gives the phone number 212-255-0200, x224 for info. Good opportunity for all of you in that area. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:55:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri In a message dated 96-06-24 08:09:13 EDT, Sam wrote: > Whether one considers an index or a thesaurus to be merely a >"factual compilation" or a non-literary work (similar to a history or >biography), what appears to be copyrightable in these cases is limited to >the "particular selection or arrangement, not to the facts themselves," >which sounds like hair-splitting to me. (Fortunately, I doubt if anyone >would ever steal an index or get rich if he did so, so we have nothing to >worry about). Hi Sam, Another reason we don't really have to worry about anyone stealing our indexes is that we indexers often explicitly cede our copyright to them to the publisher when we sign "work for hire" agreements. So, if someone rips off the index, it's the publisher's worry. Come to think of it, the fact that publishers take pains to include this in "work for hire" agreements is a strong indication that their legal departments consider indexes, in themselves, to be copyrightable. (I've also heard of a strategy to ensure payment where the indexer retains the copyright to the index until the publisher pays for the index. That's why I look at "work for hire" agreements as a pre-emptive strike on the part of publishers to prevent us from using this strategy.) Of course, this doesn't address the issue of thesauri per se. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:56:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: References In a message dated 96-06-23 15:37:36 EDT, Fred wrote to Elinor: >Thanks for letting me know how you solved the problem of see also references >to other subheads within a main heading. I like your solution of using lower >case and introducing the phrase with a semicolon rather than a period. I hope this doesn't sound like just a me-too posting, but I'm so glad to see this thread. I've wrestled with this problem on occasion, never having a solution for it! To date, I've always inadequately "solved" it by rewording some subentries to almost useless vagueness so that I could just tack a locator onto them or shoehorn a subsub under them that really belonged elsewhere in the listing--hating myself for doing it in the process. Another tactic I've employed is creating an abysmally contrived See also reference from the main heading to a main entry created expressly for this purpose. Ugly. (I had never dared to try referencing a sub or subsubentry under the same heading.) So, I'm printing out Elinor's and Terri's wonderfully elegant solutions for future reference. (And thanks, Fred, for asking this question in the first place!) > >And after all, things only became "rules" because so many people used the >same solution that it became the norm. I say we resurrect your method and >make it the rule for referring to other subheadings under one heading. I agree. Not every publisher will accept it, as some forbid "See under" references, really tying our hands here. But, if it started showing up more frequently in indexes, we could elevate it to the level of "standard indexing practice". ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 11:29:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daveream@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri Sam, The example of an "in-house" thesaurus came from working for a medical publisher some years back. They wanted to use the same term classification in some of their books that was used by another group for their publications. Here's were I may be fuzzy: I think it was the ASHP or American Society of Hospital Pharmacists. Maybe they were just being extra careful, but I think we had to get permission to re-use (possibly even a royalty) their hierarchy in our books. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:41:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: references/copyright Re references: Thanks for the reinforcement, folks--sure is nice to be able to float ideas like this. I liked Do Mi's method, too. Re copyright issues: An issue that might apply to us is reuse--electronically, in subsequent editions, etc. Lynn is correct--we sign away those rights when we sign work-for-hire agreements. See the index to back issues of Key Words--references to the copyright articles (the numbers are issue numbers, from before the volume/issue method was used): under copyright for indexes criteria for, (107):11-13 filing for, (93):4-6, (95):6-8, (96):12 indexer's rights, (98):10, (108):25 Supreme Court ruling of 1989, (92):1, 7-9 university presses' view, 1(7):23 (The last entry would be Volume 1 No. 7, which must have been July/Aug 1993. under Mulvany, Nancy: (92):1, 7-9; (93):4-6; (95):6; (107):11-13. These would have been around 1991-1992 (I think). I would check INDEXING BOOKS as well, but I'm afraid it's under a pile at the moment and I can't get to it until I finish this index. Speaking of which.... Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:48:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri Sam Andrusko wrote: > Larry, I agree 100% that indexing is creative, intellectually >demanding, etc. and results in a new and (quasi) separate work, but I >guess what I saw in first contemplating this (in light of the Supreme >Court decision) was an arrangement of non-unique words and therefore more >a "sweat of the brow" kind of work--but the research I did during lunch >allows me to see the "creative, original" arrangement and selection side >of the argument too. But as I said above, I doubt if there is much >infringement involving indexes to begin with. (There were none in any >indexes of the books I looked at). The infringement I would worry about is the publisher using the index prepared by a freelancer for another purpose than that for which it was originally produced (e.g. a printed book). In a hypothetical case where the publisher did not secure copyright to itself under work-for-hire,the indexer owns the copyright and the publisher who uses it in an on-line context, for example, is infringing. Hypothetically. Regards Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:23:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri In-Reply-To: <199606241852.LAA18799@unixg.ubc.ca> This has been an interesting thread. I have a slightly different question. What are the implications (legal/ethical) of using selected terms/scope notes/relationships in a copyrighted thesaurus in another thesaurus that would in turn be copyrighted and perhaps sold. One situation might be a specialized thesaurus that used as its base a more generalized copyrighted thesaurus produced by another company/organization. My feeling is that this would be illegal -- at least if you were talking about more than a few isolated terms. What do you think? Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:31:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Terence Ford Subject: Indexer Positions The following advertisement is being posted on behalf the Modern Language Association. ***** The MLA invites applications for two full-time indexing positions for the following subject areas: (1) general literature and (2) Iberian and Latin American literature. **** The indexer for general literature indexes scholarly publications on national literatures, bibliographical topics, printing, publishing, manuscripts, literary theory and criticism, film, theater, and related topics. Applicants must have an M.A. in comparative literature with a good knowledge of at least two other languages, an excellent command of English, editing and proofreading experience, and excellent organization skills. Send letter and resume to Box TFS, Modern Language Association, 10 Astor Place, New York, NY 10003 **** The indexer for Iberian and Latin American literature is reponsible for indexing scholarly publications on the various literatures in Spanish, Portuguese, Galician, and Catalan languages. Applicants must have an M.A. in Spanish or Latin American literature with a good knowledge of at least one other language than Spanish and English, an excellent command of English, editing and proofreading experience, and excellent organization skills. Send letter and resume to Box TS, Modern Language Association, 10 Astor Place, New York, NY 10003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 17:38:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri In a message dated 96-06-24 15:08:23 EDT, Larry wrote: >In a hypothetical case where the >publisher did not secure copyright to itself under work-for-hire,the >indexer owns the copyright and the publisher who uses it in an on-line >context, for example, is infringing. Hypothetically. Larry, Maybe not so hypothetical. As more texts and their indexes go online these days, this is something I think we should keep an eye out for in the absence of a work-for-hire agreement (where we've signed away all rights anyway). I think this could also get into that gnarl of first rights, North American (or applicable country) rights, federation of planetary rights, etc. A client told me that my embedded indexes are converted to online help indexes along with the print versions. However, I was clueless enough to be flattered instead of running to my file cabinet to scrutinize the pile of agreements I had signed for them for potential copyright infringement. (Software companies can have you sign more paperwork than going up for a Secret security clearance where they ask you to list all addresses you ever lived at since 1920--before you were even born.) ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:55:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: References I too am glad to see this thread on writing cross references from one subheading to another subheading under the same heading, but Elinor's method of indicating such references by using lower case as opposed to upper case "see" or "see also" references won't work across the board simply because it depends on upper case cross references being the preferred style--which often isn't the case(!). Moreover, even when upper case cross references _are_ the preferred style, I think something more than a case change--which can easily go unnoticed--is needed to show the reader what is meant. Still, though I can't go along with this method, I appreciate the suggestion--and the spirit of Fred's and Lynn's comments on it: >>And after all, things only became "rules" because so many people used the >>same solution that it became the norm. I say we resurrect your method and >>make it the rule for referring to other subheadings under one heading. >I agree. Not every publisher will accept it, as some forbid "See under" >references, really tying our hands here. But, if it started showing up more >frequently in indexes, we could elevate it to the level of "standard indexing >practice". ;-D Terri's suggestion to complete the cross reference with the phrase "under this topic" as in "_See_ [subheading] _under this topic_" (italics added) is clear, but seems altogether too much. (With the added italics there's no need to capitalize the first letter of the subheading.) Do Mi's suggestion from the "strange government document indexes" she does to complete the cross reference with the word "above" or "below" as in "_See also_ [subheading] _above_" (italics added) is much more succinct, probably clear enough, and may be the best we've got. Still, I've come up with another suggestion: "_See also_ --, [subheading]" or "_See also_ --: [subheading]" for those of us who prefer to use colons between headings and lone subheadings. (The double hyphen represents an em dash. I got the idea from a suggestion in the _Chicago Manual of Style_ to use "; --, [subsubheading]" as a method of including subsubs in run-on indexes.) This method is even more succinct than the one Do Mi suggested--and may be clearer--or not as clear. Michael Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service Grass Valley, CA 95945 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:06:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: expanding Leslie, I think marketing is a subject that most indexers are interested in. We have to remember that when we are self-employed, we are in "sales," like it or not. Since you have worked in-house for a publisher, you probably have the advantage of contacts in the publishing industry. Let them all know that you will be going freelance on a full time basis. Then start making cold calls or sending out letters to publishers who publish the kinds of material you want to work on. Good luck, Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 21:19:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Donald H. Patterson" <73251.1045@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: new to group Hello, everyone - I've just subscribed to the discussion group and thought I'd put out a little note to see if everything's working properly. I probably won't say much for a while, as I'm new to the wonderful world of indexing - yes, I'm taking the USDA course even as we speak - but I'm looking forward to listening and learning from all of you. Somebody recently posted asking for advice about going from part- to full-time; I'd be very interested in finding out about that myself as my tentative plan is to try indexing for a start in my off hours, then if it works out, to go full-time. (Just had to hire a summer nanny for my school-age children - ouch!) Thanks in advance for any and all advice! Stephanie Patterson (still need to find a good sign-off quote!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:30:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eric Lease Morgan Subject: ANNOUNCE: Mr. Serials Harvests (This is being cross-posted to many lists.) ANNOUNCE: Mr. Serials Harvests Mr. Serials Harvests is a index of library-related electronic serials available from the following URL: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/~emorgan/morganagus/ Using the Harvest technology and a relational database, this collection of electronic serials is planned to grow to include other types of information groupings like library functions, OPACS, and vendors. Using these technologies, librarians may be able to construct topical indexes of other academic disciplines with greater ease. Please try the URL above and don't hesitate to provide any feedback. -- Eric Lease Morgan NCSU Libraries http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/staff/morgan/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:44:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eric Lease Morgan Subject: ANNOUNCE: See A Librarian ANNOUNCE: See A Librarian (Please accept apologies for the multiple postings. Because of people's hardware limitations, wide distribution is necessary for possible success.) See You See a Librarian is a time limited project whose purpose is to experiment with the CU-SeeMe technology for real-time information exchange in the realm of library and information science. You are invited to read more about this informal project from the following URL: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/~emorgan/see-a-librarian/ The project is divided into three distinct stages described below. Stage One - "Feasibility" (July 7 to July 31) The purpose of this stage is to learn how many librarians have the necessary hardware, software, and willingness to explore the use of the CU-SeeMe technology. Stage Two - "Librarians on Librarianship" (August 1 to August 31) The purpose of Stage Two is to limit the scope of discussion to library issues. It is intended to be a forum for the real time discussion of library issues like reference services, cataloging resources, collection management, or acquisitions. Stage Three - "Librarians Fostering Knowledge" (September 1 to September 30) The purpose of Stage Three is to open the discussion up to information seekers needing assistance. During this stage, people outside the library community will be encouraged to participate. It will be at this time when reference questions could be fielded, information organization issues could be addressed, or advice could be given on locating particular pieces of information. As always, feedback is encouraged. -- Eric Lease Morgan NCSU Libraries http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/staff/morgan/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:58:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Donald H. Patterson" <73251.1045@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: new to group Hello, everyone - I've just subscribed to the discussion group and thought I'd put out a little note to see if everything's working properly. I probably won't say much for a while, as I'm new to the wonderful world of indexing - yes, I'm taking the USDA course even as we speak - but I'm looking forward to listening and learning from all of you. Somebody recently posted asking for advice about going from part- to full- time; I'd be very interested in finding out about that myself as my tentative plan is to try indexing for a start in my off hours, then if it works out, to eventually go full-time. (Just had to hire a summer nanny for my school- age children - ouch!) Thanks in advance for any and all advice! Stephanie Patterson (still need to find a good sign-off quote!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:47:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Donald H. Patterson" <73251.1045@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: test, please disregard test ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:10:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 Leslie wrote, >I have a few regulars who keep me moderately busy, but I am going to need to >expand. Do any of you have any advice on looking, advertising, etc.? I would >appreciate it very much if you could share it with me. Feel free to email me >directly if you think no one else on the list would like to hear it. I find myself in a similar position and would appreciate reading responses to her post, so please post to the list if possible. Also find myself currently in the situation of a very tight deadline (6 days, 400+ pages) and have come down with strep throat and a 101 degree temp. Can barely type. What do others do when ill and have deadlines? RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:05:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Markinch@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri The ASHP has a copyrighted "AHFS Pharmacologic-Therapeutic Classification" system" found in their annual AHFS Drug Information text. It is the numeric code they are "protecting", not the textual portion, e.g., 4:00 Antihistamine Drugs, 8:12.24 Tetracyclines, etc.. You can receive permission to use this system by writing ASHP (now known as the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists (depends on what you are using it for tho').. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:20:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Winer Slavin Subject: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 In-Reply-To: Rachel Rice's message of Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:10:54 -0400 <9606261310.AB09902@Early-Bird.Think.COM> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:10:54 -0400 From: Rachel Rice Leslie wrote, [...] Also find myself currently in the situation of a very tight deadline (6 days, 400+ pages) and have come down with strep throat and a 101 degree temp. Can barely type. What do others do when ill and have deadlines? RR Having worked both inhouse and as a freelancer, I recommend that you phone the client *immediately* to let them know. Give them as much notice as possible if you may not be able to make the deadline. For all you know, they may have other "slippages" in the schedule that will allow you to be late, but in case they don't, they will need to act fast. If you can think of alternative plans for them before you call, outline them. (Perhaps they could extend the deadline or use another indexer. Perhaps you work with another indexer to help you make the deadline.) Get well soon! \Susan Susan Winer Slavin Technical Editor wavin@think.com Thinking Machines Corporation wavin@world.std.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:23:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: What to do when ill Rachel rasped: >Also find myself currently in the situation of a very tight deadline (6 >days, 400+ pages) and have come down with strep throat and a 101 degree >temp. Can barely type. What do others do when ill and have deadlines? Ouch. Poor you. I don't get ill very often, but here's what I'd do--probably in this order, but my choice might change depending on how cash-strapped I was, what kind of relationship I had built with the client, and whether I could call in a favour from a colleague for whom I've pinch-hit on some other occasion. 1. Take drugs to dull the pain and lower the fever, and try to muddle through (complaining vociferously to the cats, my husband, and anyone else--besides the client--who might be willing to listen and dish out sympathy). 2. Try to sub-contract all or part of the work (not easy, especially if I've already started the index). 3. Ask for an extension. Sometimes it turns out that clients can "patch the index in" (their term) at the next stage (presumably blues or vandykes), especially since they know I'll give them a clean file. Most clients understand that freelancers are human, too. If none of these options panned out, I'd ship the index back on request (paying for the courier myself) and offer the client a 10% discount on our next contract. Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "Eat right. Exercise. Die anyway." (T-shirt slogan) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:58:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 In a message dated 96-06-26 09:10:43 EDT, Rachel wrote: >Also find myself currently in the situation of a very tight deadline (6 >days, 400+ pages) and have come down with strep throat and a 101 degree >temp. Can barely type. What do others do when ill and have deadlines? > >RR Rachel, Ooooh! Been there, done that! When I'm sick and know I'm going to get sicker (as when I had an excrutiating ear infection that had me in the ER only an hour after uploading an index), I start working like crazy to try to get ahead of the 8-ball. Also, when I have a fever, I start taking aspirins (or your anti-pyretic of choice) to bring the fever down to where I'm not having fever dreams at the keyboard. It also reduces the muscle aches and malaise that go along with the fever, allowing you to remain upright in front of the computer unless it's really bad. And, for sore throats, I start spraying my throat with Chloroseptic which almost totally numbs your throat and mouth. Now, you're talking to the Fever Queen here (even had one when we met F2F in Denver, BTW), so take heed. ;-D Fevers tend to go up at night, so try to do most of your indexing during the day, preferably the early morning when your temperature is at its lowest. Strep throats are really nasty (having had a few of them myself), so you have to get to the doctor right away, if you haven't already, and get antibiotics to start working on the infection. But, even then, I don't think you'll be able to muddle through an index with a strep throat without taking off a day or more off. Last summer I tried to index while zonked on Vicodin (powerful painkiller) for a severe backache that eventually put me to bed, but indexing while under the influence of narcotics leads to a lot of editing when you're done. And you may have to take some serious painkillers for a strep throat (as I did for that screamy-meemie ear infection which started as a *sore throat*!!!! Consider yourself warned. ;-D). So, I definitely would echo Susan's suggestion to immediately let your client know about your illness. With a strep throat, you're probably talking only in a croak anyway, which will definitely heighten the sympathy factor on your client's end. Last year, when I had a bad case of bronchitis/laryngitis during an indexing project, I had to call the client who freaked at the sound of my voice and urged me to take the extra time I needed. Take care of yourself and I truly hope you feel better soon! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:11:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 Rachel, I have taught my husband how to use Cindex (and my previous indexing program). When I have a really tight deadline, am ill, have painful wrists, etc., I mark up the copy and he inputs it at night when he comes home. He has been very helpful. I also have a network of local colleagues, editors mostly, who have offered to input in case of emergency. I paid $10 an hour to one who helped me meet several very tight deadlines. The worst case scenario was when my son was born a month early. I was 1/4 into an index. The very kind Sonsie Conroy took over my index, was paid for it, and reimbursed me as much as she could without losing money herself. I hope some of these help. Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:13:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: Frank Jenkins From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: SDAIR97 - Call for Papers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Call for Papers SDAIR '97 Sixth Annual Symposium on Document Analysis and Information Retrieval April 20-23, 1997 Alexis Park Resort, Las Vegas, Nevada SPONSOR Information Science Research Institute University of Nevada, Las Vegas SYMPOSIUM CHAIR Jan O. Pedersen Xerox Palo Alto Research Center pedersen@parc.xerox.com PROGRAM CHAIRS Document Analysis: Hiromichi Fujisawa Hitachi Central Research Lab fujisawa@crl.hitachi.co.jp Information Retrieval: Susan Dumais Bellcore std@bellcore.com SYMPOSIUM SECRETARY Patty Corhn University of Nevada, Las Vegas Information Science Research Institute 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 454021 Las Vegas, NV 89154-4021 (702)895-3338 (702)895-1183 (fax) sdair@isri.unlv.edu SCOPE The purpose of this symposium is to present results of state-of-the-art research and to encourage the exchange of ideas in the general field of automatic extraction of information from images of printed documents. Papers are solicited on all aspects of document image analysis and information retrieval, both theoretical and applied, with particular emphasis on: Document Analysis: High-Accuracy Transcription Postprocessing of OCR Results Keyword Search in Textual Images Multilingual OCR, Language ID, etc. Geometric and Logical Layout Analysis Recognition of Forms, Tables and Equations Models of Document Image Degradation Methods for Performance Evaluation Information Retrieval: Full-Text Retrieval Retrieval from OCR'ed Text Image and Multimedia Retrieval Text Categorization Multilingual Retrieval User Interaction and Interfaces Text Representation Retrieval from Structured Documents Evaluation of IR Systems Papers on subjects in the intersection of these two areas will be given priority. SUBMISSIONS Please send five copies of complete papers, with the corresponding author's name, postal address, telephone and fax numbers and e-mail address, to the appropriate Chair: Hiromichi Fujisawa, Chair (Document Analysis) c/o Information Science Research Institute University of Nevada, Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 454021 Las Vegas, NV 89154-4021 Susan Dumais, Chair (Info. Retrieval) c/o Information Science Research Institute University of Nevada, Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 454021 Las Vegas, NV 89154-4021 Manuscripts should be no longer than 20 double-spaced pages or 5,000 words and should not already have been accepted for publication by another conference or journal, nor should they be submitted elsewhere during the SDAIR'97 review period. Manuscripts must arrive on or before the due date. Both camera-ready paper and machine-readable source copies of accepted papers will be required. The proceedings will be available at the conference. Student papers are encouraged. The symposium will present a prize for the best accepted student paper. CONFERENCE TIMETABLE Papers Due September 30, 1996 Notification To Authors December 2, 1996 Camera Ready and Machine Readable Copy January 15, 1997 DOCUMENT ANALYSIS COMMITTEE: Hiromichi FUJISAWA, chair, Hitachi Central Research Lab Andreas DENGEL, German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence Tin Kam HO, Bell Laboratories Jonathan J. HULL, Ricoh California Research Center Junichi KANAI, University of Nevada, Las Vegas Seong Whan LEE, Korea University Yasuaki NAKANO, Shinshu University Larry SPITZ, Daimler Benz Research & Technical Center Suzanne TAYLOR, Lockheed Martin Karl TOMBRE, INRIA Lorraine INFORMATION RETRIEVAL COMMITTEE: Susan DUMAIS, Chair, Bellcore Robert ALLEN, Bellcore Abe BOOKSTEIN, University of Chicago Jamie CALLAN, University of Massachusetts Stephen GALLANT, Belmont Research Donna HARMAN, National Institute of Standards and Technology David HULL, Rank Xerox Research Center Kazem TAGHVA, Univ of Nevada, Las Vegas Peter SCHAUBLE, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich Ellen VOORHEES, National Institute of Standards and Technology Ross WILKENSON, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:15:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DBRENNER@AOL.COM Subject: In a Stew Hello, I'd like to both introduce myself and ask for help. I live in rural western Massachusetts, between the Berkshires and the Connecticut River. I've been indexing part-time, copy editor for more than six years, mostly travel & cookbooks, plus a medical journal, and have recently decided to expand to full-time indexing. My (credentialed) expertise is in toxicology and social policy, but I'm a true generalist with many interests and a very varied experience, so I am eager to expand both my publisher base and the type of books I index. Right now, however, I'm indexing yet another cookbook (which I like doing and want to continue doing). But here's the rub. Over the years I've noticed that the names of recipes have grown ever more complex with ever-growing strings of adjectives and prepositional phrases; e.g.: Grilled Loin of Vension with Orange-Cherry Oreganata Sauce and Garlic-Tarragon Croutons, 154-55 (I'm not kidding, though I made this one up). Sometimes the laytout involves very distinct subrecipes. In this example, the Garlic-Tarragon Croutons are presented as a completely separate recipe on p. 155; as is a Bourbon Marinade (obviously NOT mentioned in the title); the sauce, however, is listed as subsection of the main recipe. Quite a stew! I've found very little guidance on styles for indexing cookbooks and have made mine up as I've gone. Generally, it works pretty well, but this type of thing makes my head swim. Any suggestions? Thanks. Diane. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:20:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Illness I don't think I've ever been really ill and down to the wire at the same time (knock on wood!). When I am sick, I work between naps. IMHO, I find it is best to take care of myself when I am sick, so I get well faster. People do get sick -- could you squeeze some extra time from the editor? Of course, if this is a new client . . . I'm anxious to hear how other indexers manage illness and deadlines. Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:56:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INET.NET Subject: Re: Illness I'm one of those rare people who just doesn't believe in getting sick, so I pretty much never do (would that it were really that simple!). Seriously I can handle fever although since I rarely get headaches I'm a real baby about them and find I need to get over them first before working. But what I can't handle is when I get pinkeye or some other condition such that I can't read. Then it's time to see the doctor! I've always had bad seasonal allergies that sometimes led to heavy sinus involvement which can mess up the vision; but this year I kissed the allergy shots goodbye and starting taking echinacea, an herbal medicine with amazing properties, after listening to a show called "The Medicine Chest" on NPR. I recommend it to anyone with allergies; also its combination with goldenseal is effective. It's also got antiviral efficacy such that many people take it at the first sign of cold symptoms, quite successfully I'm told. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:55:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: new to group Welcome, Stephanie! When I was at that transitional stage, I found that I could index only one book a month *and* hold down a full-time job *and* have time for my young children. A lot of how you make that transition depends on your family finances, how you feel about your full-time job, spousal moral support, etc., etc. In my case, I had a husband who had an income and insurance package, a job I no longer liked, and lots of encouragement from other indexers, so I made the leap (from moonlighting to full-time) sooner than some people do. If I'd been able to cut my full-time job back to half-time, that prob'ly would have been a smoother transition, but that just wasn't an option in the office I worked in. Good luck! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:55:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 >Hello out there all you full timers, >I have been working as a part-time freelance indexer and editor for the last >4 years, and for 3 years before that I was an in-house editor in a college >textbook division of a good-sized pub. company. I am presently faced with the >prossible (probable and possible) need to go full time. Because I have been >working only part time, I never really had to worry about expanding my >business, and was pretty casual about contacts(but never about indexes). I >have a few regulars who keep me moderately busy, but I am going to need to >expand. Do any of you have any advice on looking, advertising, etc.? I would >appreciate it very much if you could share it with me. Feel free to email me >directly if you think no one else on the list would like to hear it. Hi, Leslie. I'm responding on the list, because I think there are plenty of folks on Index-L in a similar situation. 1. The first thing I would do is call all your present contacts and explicitly tell them you're gearing up to full-time; when I finish a job for a client, and I have a gap coming up, I ask the contact whether she (it's usually a she) has any other projects coming along that I'd be right for. 2. Tell everybody else you know that your're switching to full-time. Including other indexers (which you're obviously already doing). Let other indexers know what kinds of stuff you index, drop heavy hints that you'd like referrals, etc., etc. (Especially if you're in an ASI chapter; join ASI if you're not already a member.) ;-) 3. Figure out what kinds of books you want to index, find publishers who do those sorts of books, and make cold calls to the managing editors. There are many sources for info on publishers; my new favorite is _Insider's Guide to Book Editors, Publishers, and Literary Agents_, by Jeff Herman (thank you Anne and Terry for recommending it). I've also been known to use _The Literary Market Place_ (which you can find at your local library), _The Chronicle of Higher Education_, and _The New York Review of Books_ (from which I get a better feel for the books the different presses are currently publishing). Good luck! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:09:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Gearing up Good advice from Carol Roberts to both Leslie and Stephanie. I can add my own experiences. When I had a full-time job and the growing indexing business, I worked like a beast. I couldn't cut my full-time job back - it was either all or nothing. I had to stay with it until I was reasonably assured it'd bring in money. As a result, and thanks to a very supportive spouse (no kids at home any more), I worked and worked and worked - every hour I could, until the free (non-full-time job) hours were no longer sufficient to keep up with the flow. Long, long nights, no weekends, etc. Bigtime hard work. Only then did I leave my job -- when I couldn't possibly have done any more -- when it would have been humanly impossible to turn out any kind of quality job. The prospect of turning down work is what tipped the scales for me. I knew I had sufficient momentum at that point. I quit my job 2 years ago, and I've never looked back. I worked hard for it, and I got what I wanted. As to logistics of how to stay in touch with clients and potential clients when you're at work all day -- that was tricky. I had a separate phone line put in at home for my business, and had an appropriate business message on the voice messaging. I got the phone company's messaging service, so that I could easily check my messages from the office -- and checked, and checked, and checked often. I didn't want to miss out on jobs because it took me a day to get back to people (I learned that the hard way!). I had a phone credit card to use so that I could return the long distance calls. If I felt very gutsy, and if it was "safe", I would sometimes do that from my place of employment, but usually not. If it was a known client, who just wanted to offer me something and I knew I'd say "OK, fine -- be glad to", I would take advantage of using the office phone with my credit card. If not, though, I would go down to a public phone in the lobby of my building, or someplace else, and use that telephone. Yes ... it was awkward, difficult, etc. Not a great way to run a business. But I was determined to make it look and sound professional from the start, so I had to be free to say what I wanted to, etc -- with no one listening in, no problems from my employer, and no hesitation or muffled voice on my part. As for the phone at home, when I was freelancing part-time, which I did for a long, long time before I decided to "go for it" and make it a fulltime career, I still had kids in the house (junior/senior high school age). We had a rule -- if my work phone rang, just let it ring. No kids picked it up and said "no ... my Mom's not home." I wanted it to go to the answering machine that had an appropriate message on it. I used a mailbox place to receive my packages, since I wasn't at home to sign for them. Then I'd high-tail it over there each night by 6 PM on the way home to see what was in my mail and retrieve any packages they would be holding for me. That was starting out the hard way. But I did it! Best thing I ever did! I hope sharing my experiences with some of you new folks helps you out. Good luck! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:36:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DBRENNER@AOL.COM Subject: In a Stew Hello, I'd like to both introduce myself and also ask for help. I live in Worthington in rural western Massachusetts, between the Berkshires and the Connecticut River. Along with copy editing, I've been indexing part-time for more than six years, mostly travel & cookbooks, plus a medical journal, and have recently decided to try to expand into full-time indexing. My (credentialed) expertise is in toxicology, epidemiology and social policy, but I'm a true generalist with many interests and a very varied experience, so I am eager to expand both my publisher base and the type of books I index. Right now, however, I'm indexing yet another cookbook (which I enjoy and want to continue doing). But here's the rub. Over the years I've noticed that the names of recipes have grown ever-more complex with ever-growing strings of adjectives and prepositional phrases; e.g.: Grilled Loin of Farm-Raised Vension with Orange-Cherry Oreganata Gazpacho Sauce and Garlic-Tarragon Walnut Bread Croutons, 154-55 (I'm not kidding, though I made this one up). Sometimes the laytout involves very distinct subrecipes. In this example, the Garlic-Tarragon Walnut Bread Croutons are presented as a completely separate recipe on p. 155; as is a Bourbon Marinade (clearly NOT mentioned in the title); the sauce, however, is listed as subsection of the main recipe. Quite a stew! I've found very little guidance on styles for indexing cookbooks and have made mine up as I've gone along. For the most part, while titles are fairly simple (e.g.on the order of Sweet Potato-Pecan Pie with Honey-Vanilla Whipped Cream) my system works well, but this new type of thing makes my head swim. Any suggestions? Are there any good guidelines to cook book indexing out there. I have quite a collection, but they all seem to use different styles (not unlike references in the scientific literature!). Thanks. Diane Brenner Worthington, MA 01098 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Illness Rachel wrote about being ill and on a deadline. Must be a bad week for indexers. I've had a 101 degree fever (and some nasty symptoms that have kept me wanting to be close to my own home) for the last two days. I have a 600-page book due by 5:00 on Thursday. I just started data entry into Cindex last night! I called the editor to let her know I'm sick and to ask her to send me the pages I would normally have picked up; they arrived this morning. It will be a long day today and tomorrow, I guess. I'm feeling much better today (no fever...yay!), so I plan to do data entry flat out all day, then edit tomorrow. If I hadn't felt better today I would have called at least one other indexer, maybe two, and begged for help. We've all worked together before, and could split up the remaining pages and be done in a flash. I would split the fee proportionally by number of pages each of us worked on. But, I'm better, so I'll finish the job myself and then collapse in a heap on Thursday night. Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:36:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Gold Subject: Need to unsubscribe; Apologies for taking bandwidth In-Reply-To: <199606190551.WAA15787@mail6> Can someone reply to me personally with instructions for unsubscribing from this list. I have lost my faq. TIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:36:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Gearing up Janet Perlman's experience sounds like my own. I starting indexing with a full-time job. (I can sure relate to those late nights, early mornings, no weekends, etc.) Fortunately, I was able to cut my job down to about 30 hours a week, and only 4 days a week. Also, when I decided to leave my job, I took some work with me (not indexing) that I did for a couple of years as a contract worker, not an employee. For me, that was a good transition. Good luck, Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:36:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: In a Stew What if you listed the main recipe as: Venison, with orange-cherry sauce and croutons, 154-155 I assume the main recipe would provide a cross reference to the subrecipes, so you wouldn't need to list the page numbers for the subrecipes that are on different pages with the main recipe. Then have entries for the sub-recipes under appropriate headings like Croutons and Sauces. Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:33:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Donald H. Patterson" <73251.1045@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: thanks, everyone... for help with setting up my mail so I will receive a copy of my own msgs, and for the how-to-go-full-time advice. Sorry for hogging up space with the multiple copies of my first msg! Stephanie Patterson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:45:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Illness Rachel Rice writes: >Also find myself currently in the situation of a very tight deadline (6 >days, 400+ pages) and have come down with strep throat and a 101 degree >temp. Can barely type. What do others do when ill and have deadlines? > Sigh. This is when I wish I had a 9-to-5 job that was so straightforward that someone else could cover for me, so I could call in sick and go guiltlessly to bed. I work through situations like this, wrapped in a blanket at the computer with a large pot of tea and lots of self-pity. If part of the job is purely clerical (typing in names, for instance), I look for a reliable unemployed friend and pay them to do it. I don't call the publisher and ask for an extension (especially when I already know it's a tight deadline for them) unless I'm actually *unable* to work. For those situations, I do like the suggestions about calling as soon as possible and throwing yourself on their mercy...sometimes they do end up having extra time to spare and not minding, and (mostly) they understand that anyone's human. Do Mi, maybe a little extreme but my clients sure love me! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown <104571.560@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: In a stew I understand the problem. Modern recipe-contriving seems to call for increasingly fanciful names. Here's an example from "Cooking Light" magazine: Red Snapper With Potato-Leek Crust and Lima-and-White Bean Succotash This gets filed under the main heading "Fish and Shellfish," under the letter R. Now, if I go to the supermarket and discover that the leeks are plentiful and cheap (or lima beans, potatoes, or white beans), I'd like to have some way of getting to that in an index. (Easy for me; I can use Cindex to search my Cooking Light master index, but not easy for someone purchasing a cookbook.) Or another way of looking at this is, what if someone in the family asks, "What about that recipe that we had last year with the potato crust? You know the one." I see the other side of the coin, though, which is the exploding index syndrome. With paper costs continually on the rise, few publishers are willing to devote huge indexes to cookbooks (or most other books, for that matter). I wish I could offer something more than a clarification of the problem. Cheers, Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:40:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri You can find a useful introduction to copyright law on the web at "http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/law.copyright-faq.part1.h tml". This FAQ has six parts; to get at the other parts, change "part1" to "part2", etc. Fair use is discussed in part 2. Despite the UK domain name, this FAQ is concerned largely with U.S. law. The Electronic Frontier Foundation also maintains a useful site at http://www.eff.org. The home page is linked to a local search engine; search for "copyright" to find numerous references. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:53:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 In-Reply-To: <199606261307.GAA27771@spork.callamer.com> Rachel, immediately call the editor who assigned the project and explain] your situation. Unfortunately, the index is usually the last and most time-critical part of a book to go into production, but a day or two can probably be spared. Second, arrange to have emergency backup systems if at all possible. Before this happens again, contact other indexers whose work you know and trust and form a "support network" for emergencies. Either you can parcel out the job yourself to these trusted people, or you can give their names to your editor, in extremis, and he or she can reassign the job. Good luck, and here's hoping you make it through the job in once piece! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 In-Reply-To: <199606261638.JAA16091@spork.callamer.com> Leslie forgot to mention that when my husband had his heart attack, I had just accepted a massive indexing job from a long-term client. I was forced to send the job back (the client was most understanding, thank goodness), but could not offer a single suggestion for a replacement indexer. They used Leslie, which is how we "met," in a manner of speaking, when she needed some help herself. I can't imagine training my husband to use Macrex (my software choice). I'm still gently urging him onward in his "Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing" course! He has learned, however, how to access one favorite game (that involves a joystick rather than a keyboard). The man may move into the computer age someday, but I'm sure it won't be by doing my index typing. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:08:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 to 24 Jun 1996 In-Reply-To: <199606262030.NAA11038@spork.callamer.com> Carol made some excellent suggestions. I'd just like to add that for me, true cold calling is a virtual impossibility. I'm hopelessly shy about calling people I don't know to, essentially, ask them for a favor. But I know this technique works! So what I do is send out a resume (tailored to the type of indexing I want to be doing for the company), along with an introductory cover letter which states that I'll be calling in the next week or ten days to discuss the possibilities. That way, when I do call, the prospect already knows a little bit about me and my business and I don't feel so "naked" about the cold call. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: In a Stew In-Reply-To: <199606261830.LAA28768@spork.callamer.com> I've indexed quite a few cookbooks, and the one issue that seems to be of great importance is that all recipies be cross-indexed under their "main" ingredients as well as having a main entry where the entire recipe title is called out. The problem, of course, is in determining what constitutes a main ingredient. Staples such as flour, sugar, salt, etc., obviously are not candidates. But in a bourbon marinade, does bourbon count? Do you index it under "liquor," "alcohol," or "bourbon"? (Or both "liquor" and "bourbon"?) A third type of entry that many publishers require is related to types of meals, or types of foods...i.e., appetizers is a main entry, with all the hors d'oeuvres listed there by recipe title. Or, if the book is based on menus (wedding breakfast, buffet, etc.), one might be asked to have categories of meals as main headings as well. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:13:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Gearing up In-Reply-To: <199606270005.RAA29848@spork.callamer.com> Janet, that was a very gutsy way to get your business started! I'm really impressed. When my son was little, I worked for a time in a rented office in a nice building. I found it helped me enormously to get out of the house for most of the day. Not only did my professional life stay professional (no two-year-olds babbling into the telephone), but the building itself offered lots of the services you mention...a receptionist who would take packages, a copier in the lobby that I had a "key" to, good security, etc. Best of all, it was extremely cheap ($200 a month) and it was worth every penny for the several years I had it. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:02:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: NASEM020@SIVM.SI.EDU Subject: Offline response request re:USDA class In-Reply-To: note of 06/27/96 23:00 Okay, okay, okay. I'm really sorry to bring this up _yet_ again, but I have a friend who doesn't have access to this wonderful resource and is debating about taking the USDA course. I thought if y'all could respond to me privately with a quick version of your opinions I will print them off for her, and the list won't have another rehashing. Can I also get archive Index-L postings from the ASI site? Can someone remind me about what dates we had the previous discussions? (I've been participating since 1994, and have read two great discussions regarding USDA.) I particularly wanted to reprint Nancy Mulvany's and Barb Cohen's responses, from the instructor's point of view. Please remember _not_ to hit the reply button if you are responding to me, and type in my email address (nasem020@sivm.si.edu, verify with the header, I never write to myself)(P.S. She also has a mentor relationship with two local indexers, and is wondering if the USDA is the way to go). Thank you all very much. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:35:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: In a stew Diane Brenner's example of a long recipe title was certainly daunting (Grilled Loin of Farm-Raised Vension with Orange-Cherry Oreganata Gazpacho Sauce and Garlic-Tarragon Walnut Bread Croutons), and Nan Badgett's solution deliciously elegant (Venison, with orange-cherry sauce and croutons). I might add "Grilled," but otherwise the method works (Venison, grilled, with ....). The trouble is you have to use the same style throughout the index for consistency, so you might need the client's approval to do so. Shouldn't be any problem, though... Then Craig Brown brought up the index issue of having leeks and wondering what to cook with them when the recipe title is Red Snapper With Potato-Leek Crust and Lima-and-White Bean Succotash, and Sonsie Conroy mentioned "Bourbon Sauce." I will pass on the tip we talked about at the cookbook indexing roundtable in Denver: the "informing ingredient." Leeks are an informing ingredient in Potato-Leek Crust. You'd want to have that under the heading "Fish, as well as the succotash if you could fit it in. "If the succotash is a subrecipe, you could leave it out of the title in the index (although I'd rather see the index in 6-point type and have everything there), but you'd need to be sure it appeared under Vegetables, Beans, and Corn--and since it's a Cooking Light index, under Lima Beans and White beans as well. Then under "Leeks," you'd have either "Red Snapper in Potato-Leek Crust" or "Potato-Leek Crust, Red Snapper in" depending on the style of the index (yet another style decision--the myriad little decisions you have to make in cookbook indexing was a major point in that Denver roundtable). As for Bourbon Sauce, I wouldn't bother putting it under "Liqueur," or "Alcoholic beverages," unless this was a specialty cookbook (Cooking with Beverages?), but it should definitely be under "Bourbon" and "Sauces" or "Sauces, dessert if there are those kinds of entries... My head is spinning, and I'm hungry, Elinor >This gets filed under the main heading "Fish and Shellfish," under the >letter R. Now, if I go to the supermarket and discover that the leeks are >plentiful and cheap (or lima beans, potatoes, or white beans), I'd like to >have some way of getting to that in an index. (Easy for me; I can use >Cindex to search my Cooking Light master index, but not easy for someone >purchasing a cookbook.) Or another way of looking at this is, what if >someone in the family asks, "What about that recipe that we had last year >with the potato crust? You know the one." > >I see the other side of the coin, though, which is the exploding index >syndrome. With paper costs continually on the rise, few publishers are >willing to devote huge indexes to cookbooks (or most other books, for that >matter). > >I wish I could offer something more than a clarification of the problem. > >Cheers, >Craig Brown >The Last Word > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:11:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cold calling I'd like to comment on cold calling. A lot of marketing talks and our own ASI folks counsel newcomers to make cold calls. I haven't found them to be effective at all, though. Like Sonsie, I get a case of terminal shyness when I do cold calls. Worse, though, I very rarely find my party in, and don't get much mileage out of the long distance call as a result. Any marketing I've done in the past, and am now doing, has been by sending my resume and credentials out with a cover letter describing my specialty and experience -- to qualified leads that I got from Publisher's Weekly, other literary magazines or scientific publications (my specialty), or Literary Market Place. I don't as a rule follow up. It has worked fine for me. The work comes more from specific leads from people I network with and from answering specific ads when possible. The few organizations that I decide I really want to get into are the ones that get my phone calling efforts, so yes, I do follow up on some, but not on all. How do others handle their marketing? Do a lot of you make cold calls and find them effective? Maybe I just don't do my calls right! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:32:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: cold calling In-Reply-To: JPerlman@AOL.COM "Re: cold calling" (Jun 28, 2:11pm) I just finished reading a few articles on related topics. (All these articles are in AT&T Powersource, Vol 2 No 2. The periodical is on par, IMHO, with magazines on airlines -- all straightfoward information and advertisements -- but in this case all ads are AT&T ads.) The first bunch of information is from Ilise Benun; I can't find a source for the latter bunch, which is about contacting the press. All of the following has been paraphrased by me. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- How to Follow Up Benun has written a chart with four columns: "What they say," "What you hear," "What they mean," and "What to do." The first and last columns are below: What they say What to do I have a project. Could you send your Send or fax your information information? and follow up in one week. I'm sure it's on my desk somewhere... Ask when to call back. I've looked over your materials, and they Ask when they will be look interesting, but we haven't decided.... making a decision. We'll be in touch. The project is on indefinite hold. We'll Keep in touch quarterly for be in touch... other possible projects. Nothing. No callback. Keep in touch every few months by fax, mail, and phone. ------------------------------------------------------- Tips for Wooing the Press 1. Know who to call by name. 2. Prepare a 10-second pitch. 3. Know why you're worth talking to. 4. Always know the benefits behind your pitch. 5. Plan your call around their deadlines. 6. Make the call, but don't start pitching right away. 7. If you reach voice mail the first time, make your full pitch. 8. Follow up immediately. 9. Continue building the relationship. 10. Merchandise the publicity. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 17:15:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Toner cartridges Just priced Epson Action Laser 1500 cartridges at the nearest discount office supply store. Should do 6000 sheets. Is $180 really right? Diane ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:24:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DBRENNER@AOL.COM Subject: Re: In a stew Thanks for your thoughts. I agree, although in this case, the publishers have asked for a larger-than-usual idnex to fill in the pages. I'd do something like potato-leek crust, for red snapper, XX and have separate entries as well for the lima-and-white bean succotash under beans and (possibly, if I've got lots of room and lots of vegetable dishes) vegetable dishes. At least that's what I'd do in an index with the leeway I've been given this time. Mostly, though, I'm on a pretty short leash. Even partial clarification is helpful. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:32:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DBRENNER@AOL.COM Subject: Re: In a Stew Thanks for answering. This cookbook is made up of groups of seven or eight recipes (in no stomach-acceptable order) by fourteen different chefs. Each chef gets a chapter. The recipes are only sometimes described by category, although in most cases I can tell the appetizers from the main dishes from the "brunch" offerings and desserts; though in some cases I'm not sure and am cross-referencing among categories (brunch dishes, see also, appetizers, desserts). There's a distressing amount of inconsistency in the presentation of recipes, but I suppose that is to be expected with a "multi-authored" work. In your example I'd go for the bourbon (!), since it's what I'd think to look under, with another entry under marinades. I'f there were lots of recipes with alcohol as a main ingredient, I'd probably have a reference sushc as: liquor (see bourbon, wine, etc.). I don't think I'd put alcohol, unless it was a book wiht a bar-tending section or something. But then I have a science background, and alcohol means so many different things. Anyway, your thoughts were appreciated. Diane