From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 13-AUG-1997 12:25:55.09 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9708A" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:05:23 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9708A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:11:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Reading the book (was: Your interest level in your book content) In-Reply-To: <199707310413.XAA01000@mixcom.mixcom.com> >How do you read a book prior to indexing > it - skimming? Do you charge for reading it? And is your software > independent of publications software? For example, no one has > mentioned IXGen, which goes with FrameMaker. I don't exactly skim, but I do read very quickly. Just quickly enough to get the gist. (Then more slowly, of course, when I'm keying in.) I usually charge by the page, but I figure in to the page rate all the time that goes into indexing (marketing time, paperwork time, reading the book, editing the index, etc.). For those few jobs where I charge by the hour, yes, I do charge for the time it takes to read the book (or whatever), because it is all part of the indexing. I can't index the book without reading it. I use Cindex, which is stand-alone software that was created especially for professional indexers. Having used indexing features of MS Word and PageMaker, I would not use them as a professional. (And not only because my clients don't ask me to embed tags.) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:26:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jinjer Azuree Subject: unsubscribing - help I apologize for bothering the list with this but I have misplaced the instructions on unsubscribing. To whom do I send the request? Is there a special format? We are going out of town and I am changing service providers - so in another week all list serve messages will bounce. Again my apologies. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:43:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot In-Reply-To: <199708010156.AA05747@world.std.com> Well, I actually wasn't going to complain to the editor really because I wasn't hired to cover this sports event, I'm just a parent writing up some baseball games. There was no byline and the number of people who know I wrote the article is no greater than the 28 parents on the team. So I'm sure he thinks I haven't got a clue how to write a decent English sentence. I just thought it might be fun to let him know I'm an editor by trade. I was mostly upset when he used "plate" as a verb! Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot At 03:55 PM 7/31/97 -0700, you wrote: >The best way to handle unwanted and unnecessary editing that changes your >meaning and makes you look like a fool is the Harlan Ellison solution: >make them use a pseudonym of your choosing if they mess with what you >write too much. Note that the Star Trek episode "City of the Edge of Time" >was written by Cordwainer Bird, i.e., Harlan Ellison after they rewrote >him. Everytime (almost; then I threaten to walk) I threaten something like >this it works for me. My pseudonym would be far worse. Paul D. Buell > Hello, Was that the ST:TOS episode with a pre-plastic Joan Collins as a missionary type running a soup kitchen during the Depression? (...and Jim falls in love with her, but lets the Mack truck run her down; and Bones is running amok in some kind of drug delirium and jumping through time portals; and Spock is hiding his ears under a skullcap and making communicators out of 'stone knives and bear skins'...) If it is the same one, it's one of me all time favorites! Mr. Ellison needn't have changed his name; most Die Hard Trekkers consider that ep. one of the best. Sorry folks, but it is Friday! Good weekend to you all, Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:54:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: multi-authored works Kara wrote: << When one author's work, including but not limited to the essay chosen for the book, is discussed and/or quoted at length by other authors in their own essays, clearly the discussions/quotes are indexable. However, since that author's essay appears in full elsewhere in the book, should I point that out? ... Or should I ignore the existence of the actual essay, while still indexing those quotes/discussions of it which occur in other essays? Neither solution seems quite appropriate to me.>> This is one of those "no solution is perfect" situations, but I don't index the pages of the cited author's essay. If I did, as you point out, I would have to index all of the others too, and that's going too far. The justification for not indexing the essay is that the reader will know from the table of contents about the author's contribution. Every once in a while a publisher tells me to index page numbers for essays, and then I do it (under protest). Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: proofreading In-Reply-To: <199708010410.XAA14421@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Someone recently mentioned to me that doing proofreading for publishing >companies is an ideal way to become known by publishers and could be an >inlet into indexing for them in the future. > If you want to be a proofreader, then fine. But if what you really want to do is indexing, I would question the value of spending the time learning to proofread and contacting publishers for proofreading work. (BTW, I've done proofreading and found it boring and lowpaying, no offence to your proofreaders.) My point is that your time of preparing yourself for a career as an indexer might be better spent practicing indexing, networking like mad, learning about publishers' indexing needs, etc. Certainly proofing is a good skill for an indexer to have, but it's a different skill from indexing per se, so . . . Hope I'm not being a wet blanket. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Locators and indicators In-Reply-To: <199708010410.XAA14421@mixcom.mixcom.com> Hi, Andre. > >1. What is the best order of locators in the following entry? Is there a >general rule regarding the placement of a page number with an indicator >(e.g., "fig.") vis-a-vis a page range beginning with the same page number? > >(a) existential graph, 12, 15, 16 fig., 16-19, 24 > >or > >(b) existential graph, 12, 15, 16-19, 16 fig., 24 > >Is it less awkward to have "16 fig." before "16-19," given that "16" would >not follow "19," or is the reverse, as a rule, preferable? > My placement of it always depends on the beginning and ending pages of the page range for the text. That is, existential graph, 12, 15, 16 (fig.), 16-19, 24 but existential graph, 12, 15, 16-19, 19 (fig.), 24 and existential graph, 12, 15, 16-21 (figs.), 17-19, 24 and existential graph, 12, 15, 16-19, 17-21 (figs.), 24 There's a certain logic to those last two. Really! This reminds me of a kindergarden game, "Guess my sorting rule." >2. In case the subject of an entry is both discussed on a given page, and >is illustrated on that same page, is it always required to enter both >locators separately? Different publishers want different things. Most of my clients (mostly academic presses) want the locator duplicated. Thus, for example: > >(a) existential graph, 12, 15, 18, 18 fig., 22 > >instead of, simply, > >(b) existential graph, 12, 15, 18 fig., 22 > >where it is assumed that the reader will not only look at the illustration >on p. 18, but also read around it? > If I had to show the locator just once, I would show the text rather than the illustration; I guess I'm assuming that the text is more important to most people and that they might not look up that page if they think there's only an illustration on it. Here's another question: what do you do when the illus. is on one page and the caption is on the facing page? Do you cite the caption (because the term the reader will actually be looking for will appear in the caption) or the illustration (because that's what the reader is *really* looking for and she doesn't need the term)? I've discussed this with production editors, who don't seem to have strong feelings about it, and so I've done it both ways. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:25:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The shoe's -- Active vs Passive voice Passive voice does have its place, even though it permits evasion of responsibility. My own rule is that 10% passive is as much as I can stand. A 10:90 split allows for the circumstances Rica described and keeps doc length relatively short. Consistent use of active voice can cut as much as 25-33% from blathersome text. Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:21:00 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: netfuture A while back, Seth recommend "NetFuture" - it's a great find. Thanks, Seth! Barbara Stroup **************************************************************************** ***** Note correct address: 297 Fountain St. Springfield MA 01108 and phone: 413 785-1835 and e:mail indexa2z@the-spa.com and please correct your ASI Membership Directory and Indexer Locator!! **************************************************************************** ***** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: The shoe's -- Active vs Passive voice WordenDex@AOL.COM wrote: > > Passive voice does have its place, even though it permits evasion of > responsibility. My own rule is that 10% passive is as much as I can stand. A > 10:90 split allows for the circumstances Rica described and keeps doc length > relatively short. Consistent use of active voice can cut as much as 25-33% > from blathersome text. > Diane Worden > Kalamazoo, Mich. For more information about the place of passive voice, interested readers can look for the works of George Gopen. He usually writes about legal and technical writing, and he's done some interesting research on what he calls "reader expectation theory." To put his idea much too briefly, when passive voice enables you to put new information--information that needs emphasis--at the end of the sentence, it can be of value. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:26:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot In-Reply-To: <199708011944.MAA03250@mx4.u.washington.edu> Anne: yep! That was the one. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:08:05 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: philosophy question OK, you philosophy types. I need to know if a metanarrative is the same thing as a grand narrative. The first half of the book talks all about grand narratives, and then the second half uses "metanarrative" in similar contexts, but nowhere does it say they are the same. The context is critical social theories, postmodernism, etc. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot Anne Taylor wrote in part: >Was that the ST:TOS episode with a pre-plastic Joan Collins as a missionary >type running a soup kitchen during the Depression? (...and Jim falls in >love with her, but lets the Mack truck run her down; and Bones is running >amok in some kind of drug delirium and jumping through time portals; and >Spock is hiding his ears under a skullcap and making communicators out of >'stone knives and bear skins'...) > >If it is the same one, it's one of me all time favorites! Mr. Ellison >needn't have changed his name; most Die Hard Trekkers consider that ep. one >of the best. Yes, it was. I like the show as broadcast, too, but Mr. Ellison considers it sappy and maudlin, whereas his original was daring and edgy, hence he insisted that his name be removed. He has gone to the trouble of writing a book giving his side of the whole incident, and spares no invective when discussing Gene Roddenberry and the ever-more-lucrative industry pandering to Trekkers. I like the show as broadcast, too, but the script as Ellison published it in his book would certainly have been better -- more complex and provocative. Perhaps "too good" for TV.... Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:03:45 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Plate as a verb? I believe plate _is_ a verb in British English; I suppose it has nothing to do with baseball, of course. Perhaps with cricket or rugby? Can anybody help? I'm . . . Curious in Indiana ------------------ Sarah H Lemaire wrote: > > Well, I actually wasn't going to complain to the editor really because I > wasn't hired to cover this sports event, I'm just a parent writing up some > baseball games. There was no byline and the number of people who know I > wrote the article is no greater than the 28 parents on the team. So I'm > sure he thinks I haven't got a clue how to write a decent English > sentence. I just thought it might be fun to let him know I'm an editor by > trade. I was mostly upset when he used "plate" as a verb! > > Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Plate as a verb? Take a look at the 10th Edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (1994), on page 891: plate vt. or plated; plating (14C): 1:.....4: to cause (as a runner) to score in baseball I have also seen "plated" used in food writing as in dishes (of food) being plated. At 01:03 PM 8/2/97 -0500, david robert austen wrote: >I believe plate _is_ a verb in British English; I suppose it has nothing >to do with baseball, of course. Perhaps with cricket or rugby? Can >anybody help? I'm . . . > >Curious in Indiana >------------------ >Sarah H Lemaire wrote: >> >> I was mostly upset when he used "plate" as a verb! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:40:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DBRENNER@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Plate as a verb? Isn't "plate" a verb in American English, too? E.g. when you plate baby shoes in bronze or plate forks with silver. I think it also applies to paper. Diane Brenner PO Box 206 Worthington, MA 01098 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:12:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Indexer Locator? Hello, all - I got dropped from INDEX-L for a few days, so if this has been mentioned, just point me to the archives. Are paid-up ASI members supposed to receive a free copy of the Indexer Locator directory thingy? Or do I have to request one and pay for it? I'd really like to see it, and I imagine it must be published by now? I thought they would be available at the Winston-Salem conference, but did not see any. Any thoughts? Ann norcross ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 20:11:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: The shoe's -- Active vs Passive voice >Passive voice does have its place, even though it permits evasion of >responsibility. My own rule is that 10% passive is as much as I can stand. A >10:90 split allows for the circumstances Rica described and keeps doc length >relatively short. Consistent use of active voice can cut as much as 25-33% >from blathersome text. True, but again let's keep in mind that a passive construction isn't *always* longer than the equivalent active one, depending on whether the actor is left out (which is possible only with the passive). The judge sentenced him to 90 days. (7 words) He was sentenced to 90 days. (6 words) That said, I probably don't allow much more than the above-quoted percentage of passive where I'm hired to make sure the prose is lively. (Academic houses, particularly in the case of highly specialized subjects for which the audiences comprise 9 people and the author's mother, often don't care, and actually prefer that I *not* edit their authors at this level. As long as said sentences are grammatically sound, they can be stultifyingly dull and verbose; imposing readability is not part of my editorial mandate for these clients.) Rica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net * Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer * Seminar Leader: _Networking With Integrity_ and _Romance Meets Reality: Becoming Your Own Boss_ Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "My own boss: when I talk, *I* listen!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 20:48:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Indexer Services directory I will not bore you with all the details of production delays, but will just say that the Indexer Services directories are now in hand. The directory lists the subject and language specialties, as well as types of material indexed and additional services offered, for 277 indexers across the country. I'm working on the process of sending them out and will be processing a number of batches over the next week to ten days. So keep an eye out for your copies. Thanks to everyone for your patience. One copy of the directory is sent free to each indexer included in the directory. Other individuals may purchase copies at $15 each through the ASI office. In addition, copies of the directory are available free to publishers. Simply e-mail me directly with your name and business address, and I will send a copy to you. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services Chair, ASI Indexer Services Committee ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:31:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Indexer Services directory Locatelli@AOL.COM wrote: > I will not bore you with all the details of production delays, but > will just > say that the Indexer Services directories are now in hand. Good news! I just thought maybe I had missed mine somehow; thanks for the update. > One copy of the directory is sent free to each indexer included in the > directory. Cool. Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:17:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Indexer Services directory Dear ASI freelancers and editors: Regarding the new Indexer Services, when you get your copy, you can update my entry as follows (information current after August 11, 1997): Cohen, Barbara E. Indexing and Editorial Services 41 South Hawthorne Lane Indianapolis, IN 46219 phone: 317/ 359-1219 fax: 317/ 359-1299 e-mail: BECohen653@aol.com Note: You will still be able to reach me for a few months at the old phone number (through the wonders of "remote call forwarding"), should you misplace this information. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:51:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Re: Junk email Patricia: I'm curious. Used to be acquisitions editor for who? Acquisition of what? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:14:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot In-Reply-To: <199708021712.KAA02831@mx3.u.washington.edu> This is off the subject but one can easily see the influence Ellison might have had when we compare Startrek with Babylon5. I watch Startrek too, but good science fiction it ain't. Re: metanarative, grand narative etc. In most cases these terms thrive because they are not clearly defined, along with all the other postmodernist, deconstructionist bull. As an indexer (and I would never ever take on this kind of a book) I think it behooves one to follow the author. That is to say, if he/she is inconsistent, the index should be the same. We, as indexers, cannot be responsible for content. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:17:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The shoe's -- Active vs Passive voice In-Reply-To: <199708030012.RAA11841@mx4.u.washington.edu> English has a passive voice because it is a key part of the language. There is nothing wrong with using it correctly. Grammar programs that automatically question passive use are silly (mine is constantly telling me that I am illiterate but I keep getting published). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:44:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret FalerSweany Subject: Re: The shoe's -- Active vs Passive voice ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCA024.AA0D5AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I concur that mass conversion of the passive form into the active form = is unnecessary in many cases and fails to result in the "benefits" = grammar teachers often argue for. The passive is an extremely complex = linguistic structure that's integral to how we construct meaning. Not only does the passive allow for focus on the action rather than the = actor, it performs important psycholinguistic functions. =20 1) It allows us to maintain a old information/new information order in = our sentences---a strongly desired feature in how we organize our = paragraphs. =20 2) There are also cases in which there is no active available = (theories, for example.) To convert to the active can gain you = accusations of anthropomorphizing from scientists (a far greater sin in = their eyes.) 3) Switching to the passive can create a desirable emphasis (as can = switching back from the passive.) 4) What appears to be a passive formation (to the reader/writer) can = actually be functioning as an adjective, thus grammar checkers often = misidentify as passives parts of speech that are not passive. 5) Some semantic meanings can not be expressed in the = active--particularly with quasi- or statal modals (should, could, ought = to, etc.) Converting to the passive (or active) can actually change = significantly the intended meaning. =20 Svartvik's work analyzing over 300,000 documents from advertisements to = fiction to scientific writing, to business documents found that while = fiction may only use the passive in the 10-14% range, the percentage for = scientific documents was about 26-28% (understandable when scientific = articles also reject the use of I/you/we) and generally reflected = instances where the focus was not on the actor but on the event or = result because the actors were understood. Even advertisements used the = passive about 4% of the time. In preparing my master's thesis on the passive, I converted = approximately 500 sentences (in context from the passive to the active.) = in approximately 200 pages of text. There was no significant difference = in word count or sentence length. Conversion to the active often = requires the addition of text that can be elided in the passive.=20 Margaret L. 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I need to know if a metanarrative is the same >thing as a grand narrative. The first half of the book talks all about grand >narratives, and then the second half uses "metanarrative" in similar >contexts, but nowhere does it say they are the same. The context is critical >social theories, postmodernism, etc. > Paul wrote (under another subject line): >Re: metanarative, grand narative etc. In most cases these terms thrive >because they are not clearly defined, along with all the other >postmodernist, deconstructionist bull. As an indexer (and I would never >ever take on this kind of a book) I think it behooves one to follow the >author. That is to say, if he/she is inconsistent, the index should be the >same. We, as indexers, cannot be responsible for content. Gosh I disagree. Paul, you're being so... postmodernist here, to insist that there is no meaning to attach to these words or the work in question. We, as indexers, constantly talk about choosing a single synonym and cross-referencing from other possibilities. I suppose I should take it that you're joking here because you dislike the subject or its approaches, but I shouldn't like to promulgate separate professional standards for works I didn't appreciate. Heather, I'm not sure what the answer to your question is, but those two terms, along with the term "master narrative," are used interchangeably. I'm sure there are distinctions between them, but I don't know what they are. This is the point where I call the author and check in. I know some indexers don't like to do that but I really enjoy it and find that simply chatting a few (3-5) minutes with the author can help me make certain indexing decisions. Anyhow, because there's such a before/after effect in the use of the terms (I'm assuming this is a single-author work) I would be most comfortable with a check-in with the author and she/he would most likely be grateful. Other sources would be to call a school such as the History of Consciousness program at University of California, Santa Cruz, and ask to talk with a prof who might be available. When asking this kind of question of the author or the press, I phrase it as "these terms are used, I think, interchangeably, but I wanted to check in to make sure there wasn't some finer distinction that is being made." (there's a tactful passive construction for you) Also--The author and the press is aware that this stuff needs explication--that's part of what they want an indexer for--so they're usually quite pleased if you're finding this kind of thing. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:59:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: philosophy and math Victoria, thanks for suggesting I talk to the author--I think I'll phrase my question just as you said. But I do sympathize with Paul--I wish I'd never taken this one! However, I can't say that all the terminology is really garbage; the other book I am working on now is a book on fractals, and just the same sorts of issues come up--is a lognormal distribution synonynmous with a pre-Gaussian distribution? Is the asymptotic Pareto's law just a long name for Pareto's law, or is it a special case of the law? Does a scaling distribution always connote wild randomness, or only for small values of alpha? To someone who doesn't index math this stuff could certainly look like postmodernist deconstructionist neofunctionalist feminist hypersociological garbage, but I can breeze through the math in a way I can't breeze through the philosophy. Incidentally, the philosophy book contains a large section on how difficult it is to read philosophy. The word they use for this is--wouldn't you know it?-- "obscurantism." Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:07:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Task orientation This is another question for the programmers on the list. When indexing objects, methods, properties, etc. I try to index not only the item itself but the task under which a programmer might look for it. For instance, there is an Err object that has a Description property. The text says: "The Description property stores the description of an error that just occurred." This effectively says to the programmer: "When an error occurs, your program can find the description in the Description property." With that in mind, which of the following would make most sense? error description, storing erorr description, property for erorr description, retrieving ... or some other? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:13:40 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Plate as a verb? Hello friends, and a big "thank-you" to all who have replied to my question about the verb "plate." It didn't occur to me that American English dictionaries would also show some British usage as well. That was a treasure-trove of help and ideas. Thank you again. David ----- DBRENNER@AOL.COM wrote: > > Isn't "plate" a verb in American English, too? E.g. when you plate baby shoes > in bronze or plate forks with silver. I think it also applies to paper. > Diane Brenner > PO Box 206 > Worthington, MA 01098 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:47:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Re: philosophy and math In a message dated 97-08-03 16:52:26 EDT, you write: << Incidentally, the philosophy book contains a large section on how difficult it is to read philosophy. The word they use for this is--wouldn't you know it?-- "obscurantism." >> LOL! However, I suggest another word: "obfuscation". David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:48:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Plate as a verb? At 02:39 PM 8/2/97 -0400, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >Take a look at the 10th Edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary >(1994), on page 891: > >plate vt. or plated; plating (14C): 1:.....4: to cause (as a runner) to >score in baseball I almost never disagree with a dictionary, especially one with the reputation of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but this usage is simply awful! I've been an avid baseball fan for over 40 years and read most of the great sportwriters who have covered the game, and in all that time I have =never= seen "plated" used this way. It may be correct in the strictest sense, but it is never used, as far as I can tell, by anybody who writes good baseball prose. Ugh!! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:16:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: a religious issue In-Reply-To: <199708031950.MAA25989@mx5.u.washington.edu> Yes, there is meaning attached to postmodernist, etc. diatribe (the words used) but it is ambigious, extremely imprecise and often contradictory and those in the field strive to keep it that way since it is a way of protecting their little corners of the universe. Just try reading some of the stuff. "I make words mean what I want them to mean" and not always consistently so seems to be the battlecry. The problem I have with is not only its inexactness but the clear political agenda involved (a political agenda that works almost to negate content of any sort; one had just as well to read something by Joseph Goebbels). And, most important, I have problems with the unwillingness of postmodernists, etc. to apply their own critique to their own discipline. It's bull, pure and simple and fortunately its time is passing. And you think indexers have a problem with it just think or the poor translators (my other hat is as a translator). Yes I am prejudiced against it, because its worthless. And I would never ever try to index the suff since I value my sanity. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:10:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Postmodernist crap I totally agree with Paul. I also agree with his intensity in disliking this crap, because the results in society are devastating. Defining terms consistently is obviously critical for rational thought and reasoning. If one believes otherwise, the logical process breaks down and "conclusions" are always suspect. Way to go! David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:09:45 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: philosophy and math In-Reply-To: <199708032052.NAA03172@pacific.net> Heather wrote: >Victoria, thanks for suggesting I talk to the author--I think I'll phrase my >question just as you said. But I do sympathize with Paul--I wish I'd never >taken this one! However, I can't say that all the terminology is really >garbage; the other book I am working on now is a book on fractals, and just >the same sorts of issues come up... Gee Heather I'm crazy about fractals--wish I could index a book on the subject. Oh well, to each her/his own. I do also experience that indexing math/science/engineering is a breeze compared to my usual social analysis. It seems so clearcut and less frought with import. I'd like to do more of it as a kind of balance in my work. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:35:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: a religious issue P. Buell wrote, in part: >>Yes, there is meaning attached to = postmodernist, etc. diatribe (the words used) but it is ambigious, = extremely imprecise and often contradictory and those in the field = strive to keep it that way since it is a way of protecting their little = corners of the universe.<< I have to agree. When I have the chance to read a chapter of text = before accepting a project I will avoid indexing any book that uses = certain terms more than once per page. "Discursive," "paradigm shift," = "homosocial," "postmodern," etc. Regarding Paul's later statement that authors >>"...make words mean what I want them to mean" << I recently = encountered the term "interpellation." Looked it up. The first, = second, and third dictionary definitions made no sense in the context of the word's usage. The author, though, seemed to have become entranced = with the word and used it several times throughout the course of the = chapter. = Incidentally, the first time I indexed a book of fem lit crit, the word = "discursive" appeared (I am guessing) several dozen times. My = dictionary (Random House Unabridged, 2nd ed.) defines that as "passing = aimlessly from one subject to another," which I thought was quite = appropriate. Craig Brown The Last Word= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:35:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: The shoe's -- Active vs Passive voice I have another argument in favor of passive voice usage. Try writing a = few paragraphs in e-prime. The term stands for English without any form of the verb "to be." I've seen an article written in e-prime, and = understand there might be one or more books written in e-prime. I have = attempted--as an experiment--to write that way and will tell you I find = it difficult. Incidentally, the proponents of e-prime argue that without the verb "to = be" it becomes more difficult to characterize people negatively, as in = "He's a blockhead." FWIW. Craig Brown The Last Word = ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:14:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: selection of books for practice indexes Hello all- One quick question: Should the books that I choose to index for practice be current? For example, if I wanted to do a book from the 70s, would the index be ok to use as a sample? Or would people wonder where the heck I was coming from? Thanks, Chris Carr cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:37:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ssmckitt@CORD.IUPUI.EDU Subject: Re: transcription rates In-Reply-To: <199708041429.JAA26518@velcome.iupui.edu> Thanks to all of you resourceful people who responded about transcription rates. (also Steven Bach who left a phone message) I am forwarding your offers and rates to the author. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Sharon McKittrick Indexing & Researching 812 North Leland Avenue Indianapolis, IN 46219-4325 ssmckitt@cord.iupui.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:35:31 -0400 Reply-To: nimannin@up.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Manninen Organization: Portage Health System Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot Sarah : I have done a lot of PR work in conjunction with the library and my medical history research in addition to working at a newspaper in one of my excursions out of the library field. Newspaper people have their own culture and values particularly noticable if they work on the only paper in town. I think generally they feel that you should be honored they are printing your submission. From working at the paper, I realize the amount of stress connected with getting the paper out on deadline everyday so I try to send in the most perfect copy possible using the Associated Press style manual. This is usually a successful approach since it matches their standards. Sometimes, however, you get a reporter who feels he isn't earning his money if he doesn't make some change. I wrote an article on Hemingway in the U.P. of Michigan and used a direct quote about fishing in quotation marks of course. The reporter who proofed this copy changed the quote so that it was technically incorrect and did I hear from local fishermen! I did write a series of popular 10 page articles last year on medical history which the paper didn't edit at all possibly because they were too overwhelming?? This was a positive experience. Area librarians are not happy with the news articles on OCLC, for example, that the local paper gets off the wire. By the time the article gets into print, it makes no sense at all! Commenting rarely produces positive results. You submit your stuff and wait to see how it comes out in the paper! Nancy Manninen Portage Health System Library/Archives nimannin@up.net Sarah H Lemaire wrote: > > Well, I actually wasn't going to complain to the editor really because I > wasn't hired to cover this sports event, I'm just a parent writing up some > baseball games. There was no byline and the number of people who know I > wrote the article is no greater than the 28 parents on the team. So I'm > sure he thinks I haven't got a clue how to write a decent English > sentence. I just thought it might be fun to let him know I'm an editor by > trade. I was mostly upset when he used "plate" as a verb! > > Sarah -- Nancy Manninen Portage Health System E-mail : nimannin@up.net Library/Archives Voice : 906-487-7846 Hancock MI 49930-1495 Fax: 906-482-3080 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:31:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap At 02:10 AM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >I totally agree with Paul. I also agree with his intensity in disliking this >crap, because the results in society are devastating. Defining terms >consistently is obviously critical for rational thought and reasoning. If one >believes otherwise, the logical process breaks down and "conclusions" are >always suspect. > >Way to go! > >David Is this a diatribe against poor language usage or a defense of the sexist, racist, anti-Semitic and bigotted crap that once passed for intellectual thought in this nation? The same crap that formed the base of accepted public policies and limited, if not ruined, the lives over 50% of the US population during the first two centuries of this country's history? Conclusions based on a single point of view are always suspect. Postmodernism is no better or worse than the view it criticizes. Same as it ever was. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:13:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Indexer Locator? In-Reply-To: <199708021907.MAA10336@mx5.u.washington.edu> As I recall, those who pay for a listing get a free copy; all other members have to pay. Haven't seen a new copy recently, but I know one is on the works. The real value of a listing is not the printed copy, BTW; it's the fact that the Locator database is used by Headquarters to make referrals in response to "I need an indexer..." queries. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Ann Norcross wrote: > Hello, all - > > I got dropped from INDEX-L for a few days, so if this has been > mentioned, just point me to the archives. > > Are paid-up ASI members supposed to receive a free copy of the Indexer > Locator directory thingy? Or do I have to request one and pay for it? > I'd really like to see it, and I imagine it must be published by now? I > thought they would be available at the Winston-Salem conference, but did > not see any. Any thoughts? > > Ann norcross > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:32:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Discursive and the rediscovery of sin All - 1) Discursive. adj. 1. rambling or digressive. 2. philos. Proceeding by argument or reasoning (opp. intuitive) .... The Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary. 2) Discursive. adj. 1. Covering a wide field of subjects; rambling; digressive. 2. Proceeding to a conclusion through reason rather than intuition. .... The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. Personal Note: Pre-modernist, post-modernist, deconstructionist, reconstructionist, Tinkertoy, old-fashioned, new-fashioned, archaic, classical, cyberbabble, psychobabble, technobabble, medibabble, theobabble, sociobabble, econobabble, legalese or governmentese: bad writing is bad writing, incoherence is not erudition, and words always have been used to conceal and confuse and betray. As Oscar Wilde observed: "To be understood is to be found out." So what else is new? Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:54:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Postmodernist theology In-Reply-To: <199708041502.IAA10386@mx3.u.washington.edu> You will notice that I changed the subject to religion in my diatribe on Postmodernism. Anne: you are entitled to believe what you want. Personally, as a Marxist historian (unlike most on the list my background is not librarianship), I could not agree more about what a load of crap a good deal of what passed for established wisdom not so many decades ago was, after all I grew up in Nixon country in the 1950s. However, be this as it may, substituting a load of crap that is 10 times as wide and high as what went before is no solution. I think the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. We have to communicate and reducing language to a make-it-up as you go hodge podge creates more difficulties than it solves. So by all means let us indulge in our revisionism, but let us do it in a way that is meaningful to almost all and, most important, in a way that can be critiqued. I can use Marxism to critque Marxism and do so all the time. Postmodern deconstructionism, however, is the be all and end all, the final truth, what lies below the seventh seal. But I don't want to start a war. However, I refuse the index the stuff and likewise when I am on publication committees I refuse to pass it on for publication. I am old fashioned, I expect people to argue and present a coherent, reasoned point-of-view. If they do they have my support even if I disagree entirely but as for "making words mean what I want them to mean" and Orwellian doublespeak.... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:57:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap In-Reply-To: <199708041502.IAA10386@mx3.u.washington.edu> Forgot this. Notice how soon one gets accused of racism, sexism, anti-semitism, probably homophobia too, and descrimination against the laterally imparied or favoritism of chilies as soon as one questions postmodernism, etc. What has all that got to do with the price of beans in Bolivia? Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:17:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: thanks; and post-everything writing Thank you to those who posted suggestions on handling quotes by authors whose essays appear in the same book... Your suggestions were very helpful! I finished the index and sent it off Saturday -- minus p. 176, which they somehow missed sending to me! (Of course I tried to contact the editor, but he was out of town until today.) They're sending me the page, and I'll email the corrections as soon as I get it. BTW, does this sort of thing happen often? About poststructuralist writing: I came across a fair bit of it in the book I just indexed. It appeared to me that the less substance an author had to impart, the more gobbledygook -- excuse me, jargon -- s/he spouted. (Those with something really interesting to say wrote clearly and with a minimum of jargon of any type.) I suspect some of this comes from the "publish or perish" rule...and some from a need to feel and be seen as highly intellectual and important, perhaps? (College President: "Well, s/he's published six papers in the last two years, all of them over *my* head; s/he must be good enough in the field to teach." How's that again?) The sad thing is that probably some good and worthy thinking gets thrown out with the post-whatsis bathwater, because an author with valid ideas feels the need to present them in the intellectually politically-correct form. Anyway, readable or not, substantive or not, some of us are inevitably going to end up indexing this stuff. I just hope it won't be my turn again for a while -- give me a straightforward history book any day! Kara M. Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:42:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap At 09:57 AM 8/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >Forgot this. Notice how soon one gets accused of racism, sexism, >anti-semitism, probably homophobia too, and descrimination against the >laterally imparied or favoritism of chilies as soon as one questions >postmodernism, etc. What has all that got to do with the price of beans in >Bolivia? Paul D. Buell [Do you mean 'impaired'? Do you mean 'discrimination'?] What are 'chilies', besides the little heartburn bombs used in cooking? I find no reference for this usage of 'chilies' in any of the English dictionaries anywhere in my university library, including the mighty OED. Or could it be that the word's meaning has been adapted to serve some other idea? Notice how soon someone claims to have been accused of all those awful things as soon as their personal diatribe gets questioned. Where--when--did I accuse. I asked a pointed question--in the passive voice; not quite the same... yes? Figured out the price of beans, yet? Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:59:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: thanks; and post-everything writing At 01:17 PM 8/4/97 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote: >I finished the index and sent it off Saturday -- minus p. 176, which they >somehow missed sending to me! (Of course I tried to contact the editor, >but he was out of town until today.) They're sending me the page, and I'll >email the corrections as soon as I get it. BTW, does this sort of thing >happen often? I'd say it happens to me about every third index (that a page or more is missing somewhere in the middle of the book). For some time, I've spent my first few minutes with any new set of page proofs checking not only for the correct sequence of page numbers, but skimming last lines and first lines to be sure that they match. It's bad enough to have a page missing that is easily identified by a skipped number...even more annoying to discover it only because the text doesn't match from one page to the next. Of course, this could just be a dropped line or two, but in any case it must be dealt with by the editor. Thank God for faxes and email. If there are only a few missing pages, I can receive them by fax and integrate them into the pages immediately. And email is really helpful when you discover something like this at midnight. Instead of waiting until the next morning to call, I just write an email immediately. If I haven't heard back by some reasonable time the next day, THEN I follow up with a phone call. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:04:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: good one Thought you might enjoy this, sent to our pubs group. Linda NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT Announcing the new Built-in Orderly Organized Knowledge device, otherwise known as the BOOK. It's a revolutionary breakthrough in technology: no wires, no electric circuits, no batteries, nothing to be connected or switched on. It's so easy to use even a child can operate it. Just lift its cover. Compact and portable, it can be used anywhere-even sitting in an armchair by the fire -- yet it is powerful enough to hold as much information as a CD-ROM disk. Here's how it works: each BOOK is constructed of sequentially numbered sheets of paper (recyclable), each capable of holding thousands of bits of information. These pages are locked together with a custom-fit device called a binder which keeps the sheets in their correct sequence. By using both sides of each sheet, manufacturers are able to cut costs in half. Each sheet is scanned optically, registering information directly into your brain. A flick of the finger takes you to the next sheet. The BOOK may be taken up at any time and used by merely opening it. The "Browse" feature allows you to move instantly to any sheet, and move forward or backward as you wish. Most come with an "index" feature, which pinpoints the exact location of any selected information for instant retrieval. An optional "BOOKmark" accessory allows you to open the BOOK to the exact place you left it in a previous session-even if the BOOK has been closed. BOOKmarks fit universal design standards; thus a single BOOKmark can be used in BOOKs by various manufacturers. Portable, durable and affordable, the BOOK is the entertainment wave of the future, and many new titles are expected soon, due to the surge in popularity of its programming tool, the Portable Erasable-Nib Cryptic Intercommunication Language stylus. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:58:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap In-Reply-To: <199708041755.KAA18183@mx4.u.washington.edu> Anne: guess what I can't type. No, I have no idea what beans cost in Bolivia. No, you were not accusing anyone but I continue to amazed with how quick a standard litany of terms comes up in any discussion of postmodernism etc. The rest of my listing was intended to be a joke. But let's drop it before we bore everyone to death. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:18:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: a religious issue In-Reply-To: <199708040413.XAA17013@mixcom.mixcom.com> I mostly agree with Paul's assessment of deconstructionism. Although I'm not as confident as he is that it's all bull, I am confident that it *reads* like bull. I know I don't get it, and I've given up trying to index that stuff. I would like to say a word in defense of philosophy, though. I don't consider that stuff philosophy--most Western analytic philosophy doesn't read at all like deconstructionism, and I'm surprised that the authors would describe what they're doing as philosophy. This is not to say that philosophy is easy to read either. Yes, professional philosophers do use big words. But please keep in mind that they are writing, primarily, for other philosophers, people who are steeped in the tradition and know the language. It would be tedious and counterproductive if philosophers had to define, say, "existential import" or "categorical imperative" every they use them. So if you're indexing in a field that's very technical and contains a lot of jargon, you should expect to have to consult a specialized dictionary and/or experts in the field, when you get stuck. So how do you know when something you're reading really is gibberish and intentionally/politically obscure *or* is simply technical and difficult? Does it matter? For me this issue is a bit like deciding whether new-age spiritualism is bull. I have my opinions about that, but all I really need to know, for indexing purposes, is whether I want to index it or not. (Not.) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Postmodernist theology At 09:54 AM 8/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >You will notice that I changed the subject to religion in my diatribe on >Postmodernism. Anne: you are entitled to believe what you want. >Personally, as a Marxist historian (unlike most on the list my background >is not librarianship), I could not agree more about what a load of crap a >good deal of what passed for established wisdom not so many decades ago >snip And the significance of this to indexing is? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:30:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Homeowners insurance At 05:12 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote: >The limit on office equipment of the standard part of my homeowner's >insurance policy is similar - $2500 on property used for business. >However, one can get an additional, optional coverage for "permitted >incidental occupancies" on ones "residence premises" that covers a named >business. Mine is "computer scientist", removes the limit on property >used for *that* business (that is, combines it with the limit on all >other personal property, which is I think typically 1/2 the value of the >house), and costs only $25 per year. I would think "indexing" as a >business has no higher risks, and would therefore merit a similarly low >premium. This just saved me $275/year. My agent had quoted $300/year to cover my office equipment under a separate business policy. I showed him this note and he came back with $25/year for coverage under "incidental occupancy." Ain't the Internet grand? Or at least .275 of a grand. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:34:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Task orientation > This is another question for the programmers on the list. > > When indexing objects, methods, properties, etc. I try to index not only > the item itself but the task under which a programmer might look for it. > For instance, there is an Err object that has a Description property. The > text says: "The Description property stores the description of an error > that just occurred." > > This effectively says to the programmer: "When an error occurs, your > program can find the description in the Description property." With that > in mind, which of the following would make most sense? > > error description, storing > erorr description, property for > erorr description, retrieving > > ... or some other? Is this book specifically for programmers? Of what language and level? As a non-programmer but someone who uses computers and is frequently frustrated by my inability to relate anything in the index to what I'm looking for, I vote for "error description, retrieving"m since this seems to give the best indication of what you would use this function for. On the other hand, if it's a highly technical book for experienced programmers, they may (I don't know) be more familiar with one of the other terms. Kara M. Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:34:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Task orientation At 06:34 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >Is this book specifically for programmers? Of what language and level? Pretty much. It's a developer's guide for developing databases with Visual Basic 5. Not something a casual computer user would be reading. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:14:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Palmer Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap (If you don't like the subject, click on "Delete"! The meaning of words is relevant to indexing, especially if you are indexing postmodernist books...) snip >Or could it be that the word's meaning has been adapted to serve some other idea? snip Oh yesssss! :) >Notice how soon someone claims to have been accused of all those awful >things as soon as their personal diatribe gets questioned. (Anne Cleester Taylor) Yep, Anne, in logic terminology, he was "poisoning the well" (making your side sound like baby-eaters) and "extending the argument" (saying you accused when you didn't). Hi Paul. I agree that logic and shared meanings are vital to communication. Long live logic. There's not enough of it around. (If there were, the National Enquirer would not survive.) I actually sympathise with the difficulty in trying to read postmodernist works, and I do think that a healthy dose of skepticism (The "It's all crap!" attitude) is a healthy thing when reading such material. But I think people are still communicating with each other in fields like communication, philosophy and fem lit crit, despite their weird terminology. I think it's just a case of a crowd of people using jargon terms to refer to their common ideas. I have learned a little postmodernist theory and already it's making a lot more sense to me than it once did. Fluidity of meaning is useful under some circumstances and necessary under others. Can you imagine how we Australians would deal with reconciliation with the Aboriginal people here if we were incapable of realising more than one (our own) meaning for the term "sacred site" or "family unit"? (I know we're not doing that well, but it could be worse). The lesson, as usual, is "moderation in all things", including postmodernism. In the land of free speech, I'm surprised that you would refuse to index a book or participate in having it published. I don't think I would take on a job to index a book that was much beyond my subject knowledge though. Also, if the book is badly written, I wouldn't pass it on for publication. I think that's what you meant? Well done all participants. I have enjoyed reading the discussion on postmodernism, and I think it's very relevant to indexing. Barbara Palmer barbarap@phm.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:24:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Two types of columns In-Reply-To: <199707181649.AA14553@world.std.com> Hi everyone, I have an interesting dilemma. I am indexing a book on PageMaker (hi Lynn!) and I have two sections about adjusting column width. One section describes how to change the column width on PageMaker pages. The other section describes how to change the column width in Adobe Table, a PageMaker plug-in which allows users to create two-dimensional tables. I think I need to index both sections under "columns" but I'm not sure how to distinguish between the two. I (very briefly) considered indexing both under columns adjusting width of 44-45, 88-90 but I'm not really comfortable with that solution. Seems like the perfect question to pose to this group. Any suggestions? I need to finish this ASAP. Thanks, Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:26:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: Two types of columns Sarah, Are you allowed to have a third level for your index entries? If so, that solves the problem right there: columns adjusting width of in Adobe Table, 88-90 in PageMaker pages, 44-45 or something to that effect. I assume you have other entries under "columns?" If not, you might want to use column width, adjusting in Adobe Table, 88-90 in PageMaker pages, 44-45 I hope this helps. If I think of any more possible alternatives, I'll e-mail those too. Cheryl Jackson Sams Publishing, a division of Macmillan Computer Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Two types of columns Author: Sarah H Lemaire at Internet Date: 8/4/97 9:24 PM Hi everyone, I have an interesting dilemma. I am indexing a book on PageMaker (hi Lynn!) and I have two sections about adjusting column width. One section describes how to change the column width on PageMaker pages. The other section describes how to change the column width in Adobe Table, a PageMaker plug-in which allows users to create two-dimensional tables. I think I need to index both sections under "columns" but I'm not sure how to distinguish between the two. I (very briefly) considered indexing both under columns adjusting width of 44-45, 88-90 but I'm not really comfortable with that solution. Seems like the perfect question to pose to this group. Any suggestions? I need to finish this ASAP. Thanks, Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:03:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Two types of columns In-Reply-To: <199708050132.SAA24640@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 09:24 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I have an interesting dilemma. I am indexing a book on PageMaker (hi >Lynn!) and I have two sections about adjusting column width. One section >describes how to change the column width on PageMaker pages. Hi Sarah, I've faced this particular indexing dilemma rather often, probably including when I indexed the now infamous PageMaker book. ;-D > The other >section describes how to change the column width in Adobe Table, a >PageMaker plug-in which allows users to create two-dimensional tables. I >think I need to index both sections under "columns" but I'm not sure how >to distinguish between the two. I (very briefly) considered indexing both >under > >columns > adjusting width of 44-45, 88-90 > >but I'm not really comfortable with that solution. Seems like the >perfect question to pose to this group. Any suggestions? >I need to finish this ASAP. OK. We have two kinds of columns here. Table columns and text columns. To prevent confusion between the two, I create separate main headings for a) table columns; and b) text columns. I also create a main entry: Columns. See table columns; text columns. (This can also happen when indexing a book about a software suite containing a word processor and a spreadsheet. Then you also have spreadsheet columns to deal with. ;-D) I do this to prevent the potential confusion you speak of, but also to minimize subentry levels. This can become important if the software supports two types of text columns for example, such as "balanced columns" and "unbalanced columns" (or whatever the term is). Anyway, this permits you to tuck a subentry "adjusting width of" under each. I often make a separate heading for "column width". If the only entries relevant to column width are for adjusting it, you can create: column width, adjusting. See also row height, adjusting spreadsheet columns table columns text columns Hope this helps!!! May your subentries be printed indented. ;-D BTW, everyone, please note my new email address. I'm sorry if the mail bouncing from my AOL address freaked anyone out (I got a few worried telephone calls). I'm ok. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: liam Subject: Is anything off-limits? In-Reply-To: <199708050019.TAA06820@cypress.idir.net> On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Barbara Palmer wrote (in response to Paul's comments on postmodernism and the indexing of books so related): > In the land of free speech, I'm surprised that you would refuse to index a > book or participate in having it published. I don't think I would take on a > job to index a book that was much beyond my subject knowledge though. Also, > if the book is badly written, I wouldn't pass it on for publication. I > think that's what you meant? I'm really glad you brought this up, because it's been somewhat on my mind. I think there are a few things I _would_ flat-out decline to index. I don't know if I want to get into actually saying what would be my personal "off-limits" books, but they'd have to be a lot more horrible than anything I've come across yet. However, having said that, let me add that there is a wider "grey area" of books which I will, and do, index, but whose content I strongly disagree with. You may wonder what the difference is; I guess it's a case of deciding which hill you're going to die on. I'm not going to raise a fuss over, say, a book on certain educational theories even if they make me grit my teeth. I just take more frequent breaks while reading. :) I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't think it's a slap in the face of Free Speech to decline a book on personal principles. Isn't that also a right? Just a thought from this very infrequent poster (but I'm always reading these letters!). -- Sarah Allen Smith indexer@ixks.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:11:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Palmer Subject: Re: Is anything off-limits? Sarah Allen Smith wrote: >I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't think it's a slap in the face >of Free Speech to decline a book on personal principles. Isn't that also >a right? I agree. At first it sounded to me like Paul was practising a kind of censorship, but as you have pointed out, you have to draw the line somewhere, so everyone is going to reject something. Point taken. Barbara Palmer barbarap@phm.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:28:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap How do you go from an insistence on logic and consistency to "a defense of the sexist, racist, anti-Semitic and bigotted crap that once passed for intellectual thought in this nation"? It is only the lack of logical rigor that is being criticized in postmodernist as "crap". In whatever category of thought you wish to discuss, anything that does not use consistent definitions is "crap". David << At 02:10 AM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >I totally agree with Paul. I also agree with his intensity in disliking this >crap, because the results in society are devastating. Defining terms >consistently is obviously critical for rational thought and reasoning. If one >believes otherwise, the logical process breaks down and "conclusions" are >always suspect. > >Way to go! > >David Is this a diatribe against poor language usage or a defense of the sexist, racist, anti-Semitic and bigotted crap that once passed for intellectual thought in this nation? The same crap that formed the base of accepted public policies and limited, if not ruined, the lives over 50% of the US population during the first two centuries of this country's history? Conclusions based on a single point of view are always suspect. Postmodernism is no better or worse than the view it criticizes. Same as it ever was. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Re: Postmodernist theology In a message dated 97-08-04 22:47:15 EDT, you write: << >You will notice that I changed the subject to religion in my diatribe on >Postmodernism. Anne: you are entitled to believe what you want. >Personally, as a Marxist historian (unlike most on the list my background >is not librarianship), I could not agree more about what a load of crap a >good deal of what passed for established wisdom not so many decades ago >snip And the significance of this to indexing is? Dick Evans >> The relevence to indexing is that it is difficult to impossible to index that which is illogical and inconsistent. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:24:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Indexer's right to refuse (was: Postmodernist crap) Barbara Palmer wrote: Well, in *this* land (the UK) I would say that freedom includes the freed= om to refuse to index a book if you don't wish to do so, for whatever rea= son. I think Barbara's reasoning is slightly confused here. The author is= free to write the book, the publisher is free to publish it, and I have = no wish to prevent either from doing so, but I am equally free to decide = whether or not I wish to participate in its publication. A case in point = is that of a biography of a leading Nazi figure written by a notoriously = antisemitic author who is best known for his denial of the Holocaust. I w= as asked to index this book by a person who did not identify herself on t= he telephone. When I was told the author's name I replied, 'I don't think= I want to do this', and the conversation came to an abrupt end. I was no= t asked for my reasons, which were presumably obvious. Since then I have = discussed this incident with several colleagues. I was amazed to find tha= t some people would have no scruples about associating themselves with su= ch a book. I would stress that although I had not seen the book, my knowl= edge of the author's reputation left me in no doubt that I would not wish= to touch it with a ten-foot barge pole. I would very much like to know w= hat others think. < I don't think I would take on a job to index a book that was much beyond my subject knowledge though. > Agreed. The first time I received a book of postmodernist literary critic= ism to index, I was horrified as I turned page after page realizing that = I could not understand a single sentence of it and had no idea which were= the appropriate terms to index, apart from proper names. I realized that= apparently normal words were being used in a different and specialized s= ense, but I had absolutely no clue as to what they meant in this context.= I returned the proofs promptly, in great embarrassment. Luckily there wa= s no hard feeling. Since then I have learnt a little more about postmoder= nist writing and have indexed several such books (though I can't say I en= joy doing so). I would never attempt to index a book that used specialist= or technical terms of which I had insufficient knowledge. < Also, if the book is badly written, I wouldn't pass it on for publication. > Well, I wouldn't be that fussy. I have indexed many badly written books. = It was not my responsibility but the copyeditor's to ensure that the styl= e was acceptable. However, if I felt that the book was so badly written a= s to be beyond redemption, I would discuss the matter with the client as = soon as I realized this. If I just felt that some part of it was so badly= written as to be ambiguous or unintelligible, or contained inaccuracies,= but that these were faults that could be fixed, again I would draw the c= lient's attention to the problem. Christine *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= *= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:56:58 +0200 Reply-To: maddox@iafrica.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah & Peter Maddox Subject: Re: selection of books for practice indexes For my sample index, I chose _the story of language_ by Charles Barber, Pan Books Ltd, London, 1964. I chose it because I had read it a couple of times, and it was a subject close to my heart. And, most importantly, because it had no index and in my opinion needed one. A number of editors complimented me on the index. None remarked on the age of the book. And one of them gave me my first job. The only problem is, that the editors may not easily find a copy of the book, if they want to check up on the index. Good luck with your sample index! Sarah Maddox Freelance Writing and Indexing http://users.iafrica.com/m/ma/maddox/ Chris Carr wrote: > > Hello all- > > One quick question: > > Should the books that I choose to index for practice be current? For > example, if I wanted to do a book from the 70s, would the index be ok to use > as a sample? Or would people wonder where the heck I was coming from? > > Thanks, > > Chris Carr > cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:07:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Palmer Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap I've been thinking. (Surprised? :)) Postmodernism is a new field, right? This may explain some of the inconsistency in use/meaning of words. I know when I was studying "information science" (new-fangled stuff, that), some of the most eminent scholars disagreed on the new jargon (information overload, precision, recall, "aboutness" - sound familiar?). I don't think this inconsistency indicated a total lack of logic or good ideas. I think Wilbur and Orville would have taken some time to work out what they should call all the parts of their "flying machine"/airplane / aeroplane. Of course, a badly argued book is a badly argued/badly written book. I don't think all postmodernist works are badly written though. I don't even think they tend to be badly written. I maintain that some postmodernist, deconstructionist, post-structuralist theory is worthwhile. If we have to use big words to talk about it, and if we take some time to sort out common meanings, that's ok with me. Barbara Palmer barbarap@phm.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:16:29 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Try these on: Hi Indexers - Here's another opportunity to show your stuff. 1 - In a history of Nevada, if Chris Columbus is not mentioned, but Columbus (a town) is, do we need to mention that Columbus is a town? 2 - What is a person from the Dominican Republic known as? A Dominican? A Dominican Republican? 3 - Spanish names can trick an indexer. I have exhausted Chicago and my resources on the following, and will index as follows unless you have different suggestions: Medina, Bartolome' de Miera y Pacheco, Bernardo de PadillaFray Juan de Tovar, Pedro de De La Hoya, Oscar (boxer) 4 - Short of asking the au, does anyone know how Jan Laferty Jones would be indexed? Both under Jones AND under Laferty Jones? And is the au correct that "Vicente" is a correctly spelled Spanish name, as is "Vincente?" 5 - I will head to the University library for these tomorrow, but if anyone is certain now, feel free to answer. Tabehuachnes or Tabehuaches Do the Rio Grand and Colorado rivers meet and run together anywhere? Nevada past Governors Bryan and Nye's first names are ? So glad you're there! ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:04:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Indexer's right to refuse (was: Postmodernist crap) -Reply I think that Christine's observations are on target. The freedom of speech includes, implicitly, the freedom to NOT speak, or, in this case, to refuse work that would make you personally uncomfortable. You don't need to offer any further explanation. As to indexing badly written books, it has been my experience that the most poorly written books are the ones that most desperately need a good index. A well organized, coherent book certainly benefits from an index, but a good index in a poorly structured or poorly written book can actually enhance the book's value by imposing structure onto chaos. As a law indexer, I am particularly aware of this, because statutes are notoriously obscure, poorly organized and poorly written. Hey, what better way to impress a client? :-) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:06:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Postmodernist theology At 02:11 AM 8/5/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-04 22:47:15 EDT, you write: > ><< >You will notice that I changed the subject to religion in my diatribe on > >Postmodernism. Anne: you are entitled to believe what you want. > >Personally, as a Marxist historian (unlike most on the list my background > >is not librarianship), I could not agree more about what a load of crap a > >good deal of what passed for established wisdom not so many decades ago > >snip > > And the significance of this to indexing is? > > Dick Evans >> > > >The relevence to indexing is that it is difficult to impossible to index that >which is illogical and inconsistent. And that appeared where in the subject posting (and several others like it?). It may have started in that vein but has since gone far afield into personal diatribe. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:00:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: thanks; and post-everything writing In-Reply-To: <199708050406.XAA02055@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I finished the index and sent it off Saturday -- minus p. 176, which they >somehow missed sending to me! (Of course I tried to contact the editor, >but he was out of town until today.) They're sending me the page, and I'll >email the corrections as soon as I get it. BTW, does this sort of thing >happen often? It happens to me pretty often. The first thing I do when I get a new set of pages (even if I'm not ready to start indexing the book) is to check that all the pages are there. That way you can often get the missing page before you're done indexing the book. > >About poststructuralist writing: I came across a fair bit of it in the book >I just indexed. It appeared to me that the less substance an author had to >impart, the more gobbledygook -- excuse me, jargon -- s/he spouted. I suspect some writers come by the style quasi-honestly. (Paul, please don't flame me.) That is, they are trained in it in their (English?) department, are expected to write that way, etc. I don't think all of them actually intend to be unclear; some of them are just lousy writers, but honestly so, if you know what I mean. > >Anyway, readable or not, substantive or not, some of us are inevitably >going to end up indexing this stuff. I just hope it won't be my turn again >for a while -- give me a straightforward history book any day! > I'm just finishing an anthology on film genres, and sure enough there were a couple of chapters written in that style. I just slog through them as best I can, all the time thinking things like, "What has that got to do with anything?" "What could this word possibly mean here?" or just "What the . . .?" Every time I try to avoid this junk by questioning the editor closely before accepting the job (I always ask whether there's any deconstruction in it), the editor invariably reassures me that the text is pretty readable and that deconstructionist language is dying out. Not a moment too soon, IMO. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:00:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap In-Reply-To: <199708050406.XAA02055@mixcom.mixcom.com> >In the land of free speech, I'm surprised that you would refuse to index a >book or participate in having it published. Refusing to participate in indexing a book or in having it published is perfectly consistent with free speech. Suppose I decline to work on a book that promotes something I hate--say, _How to Build a Nuclear Bomb in Your Back Yard_ or _Ten Easy Steps to Becoming a Nazi_--I'm not preventing the author from getting it published or getting it indexed by someone else. Promoting free speech doesn't entail promoting the content in any given case. Those of us who are indexers are free to decline books not only when we feel that we're out of our depth, but for any reason at all: because it offends me, because I find the subject boring, because I don't like the publisher, or whatever. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:00:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Two types of columns In-Reply-To: <199708050406.XAA02055@mixcom.mixcom.com> Sarah, Would it work to add an entry for Adobe Table (still leaving the page numbers for Adobe Table under "columns" as well)? Adobe Table adjusting width of columns adjusting width of 44-45, 88-90 Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:39:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Is anything off-limits? liam wrote: > On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Barbara Palmer wrote (in response to Paul's > comments > on postmodernism and the indexing of books so related): > > > In the land of free speech, I'm surprised that you would refuse to > index a > > book or participate in having it published. Free speech is of ultimate importance to me. It is equally important to me to have control over what books are in my house. I don't see those ideas as incompatible. I don't have any responsibility, nor can I be coerced by any person or agency, to contribute my time, money, or skills to the publishing or indexing of any book about anything. IMHO, that's free speech, too. > > I don't think I would > > take on a > > job to index a book that was much beyond my subject knowledge > though. Also, > > if the book is badly written, I wouldn't pass it on for publication. > I > > think that's what you meant? I don't know what the original poster meant. I do know that I could, and would, refuse to index a perfectly written, impeccably edited, beautifully illustrated book on a subject I know a lot about. if that choice was the right choice for me at that time. > I'm really glad you brought this up, because it's been somewhat on my > mind. I think there are a few things I _would_ flat-out decline to > index. > I don't know if I want to get into actually saying what would be my > personal "off-limits" books, but they'd have to be a lot more horrible > than anything I've come across yet. However, having said that, let me > add > that there is a wider "grey area" of books which I will, and do, > index, > but whose content I strongly disagree with. You may wonder what the > difference is; I guess it's a case of deciding which hill you're going > to > die on. I'm not going to raise a fuss over, say, a book on certain > educational theories even if they make me grit my teeth. I just take > more > frequent breaks while reading. :) I guess my approach is this: I don't make a fuss--with the client--over any book (I'll probably rant and rave to a colleague, though.). If I don't like a book, or am not qualified to index it for some reason, or if I'm planning to go to the beach, or if I already have too much work, or if I don't like the author, or if I can't stomach the content, or any other reason, I say: Thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to index your book. I'm not available for this job, but please call me again; I hope we can do some business together soon. (And just for the record, I've only done this twice; once because I didn't feel qualified to do the book in the time allowed, and once because of the subject matter.) As another thread pointed out some time ago, saying "No" to a publisher is a good way to never get business from them again. So, as with any choices I make about any aspect of my life: the choice is mine but *so are the consequences.* If I go around refusing books, I'm unlikely to be in business very long. > I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't think it's a slap in the > face > of Free Speech to decline a book on personal principles. Isn't that > also > a right? I agree. As an indexing business, however, I won't get many clients if I let them know that I consider their books/authors/content/etc. to be crap. Do I/will I refuse books? Certainly. Do I say why, and explain my personal principles? No. > Just a thought from this very infrequent poster (but I'm always > reading > these letters!). Keep reading; keep posting; keep indexing! :-) Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:37:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: Two types of columns Sarah, As a longtime Pagemaker user, I would look for column width adjustments in tables in two places: Tables column width adjustment and Column width adjustment.... in Tables............ Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:44:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Reina Pennington Subject: Ergonomics: chair/keyboard review The following reviews are reprinted with permission from the Macintosh electronic newsletter, TidBITS#391/04-Aug-97 . ===================== by Tonya Engst **Bigger than a Bread Box** -- Last summer, I decided to put aside my totally unrealistic expectation that most furniture should cost less than $100. It was time to buy an expensive, super-ergonomic desk chair. Because my feet often get tired at Macworld Expo, I figured I could combine resting my feet with chair shopping, and maybe track down a chair at the Expo. I found the ZACKBACK International booth, and later purchased a ZACKBACK posture chair, in a dreamy "Seashore" color. This $700 to $800 chair supports the thoracic portion of the back (just below the shoulders) and the sacral portion (at hip level), not the customary lumbar area. I was attracted to the ZACKBACK because I've always scooted lumbar supports as far down as they go, into the sacral region, because they feel more comfortable that way. In supporting the sacral and thoracic back regions, the ZACKBACK positions you in what its creator, physical therapist Dennis Zacharkow, thinks is the best sitting posture - straight and open, so body fluids circulate and nerves remain unpinched. When my chair arrived, it required some easily accomplished assembly, and then had to be adjusted. The adjustments were simple, but required a helper since I couldn't simultaneously sit in the chair and adjust it. Once the chair was adjusted, it fit me just right, but Adam, who is much taller, finds it almost impossible to sit in. I experienced a whiplash injury several years ago, and one thing I especially like about the chair is the way it puts my neck into a comfortable position. The chair hasn't cured my whiplash or caused all RSI problems to disappear, but I can sit in it comfortably for longer than I could in any previous desk chair, and definitely longer than I should. ZACKBACK International -- 800/748-8464 507/252-9293 -- 507/252-5150 (fax) -- **Keyboarding up with the Joneses** -- One of my pet peeves is that extended keyboards extend to the right, forcing right-handers to reach an extra few inches to reach the mouse. I'd rather have directional and numeric keys at the left and keep the mouse closer at hand. As such, at Macworld Expo, January 1996, I was looking for a keyboard that would meet this requirement. I found it in a Datadesk TrackBoard keyboard, which had not only cool purple function keys, but also a trackball mounted at its right side, exactly where I thought it should be. I gleefully ordered the keyboard at the show special price, complete with an optional, separate ADB numeric keypad. The keyboard arrived promptly, but soon had to be exchanged - despite extensive troubleshooting, devices on the ADB bus tended to be inoperable after booting up, and - if I did manage to restart with everything working - the trackball tended to get stuck such that the mouse pointer would move in only one direction. Unfortunately, after a few weeks, the new keyboard acted up just as the old one had. Given that the fourth edition of Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh had taken over my life, the second keyboard spent six months lying on the floor, next to the first keyboard that I'd never sent back. Feeling negligent, I contacted Datadesk again. They were nice about the six month delay, and promised to try again. I returned the first two keyboards; they sent a third. The third arrived promptly, I hooked it up, and started typing. It worked okay, but triggered my tendonitis. Discouraged, I disconnected it. Someday, I'll try it again. In the meantime, our extended Macintosh family has many members, and the keyboard is ensconced on the Power Mac 7100 that runs our search engine. Datadesk -- 206/842-5480 -- 206/842-9219 (fax) Copyright 1997 TidBITS Electronic Publishing. All rights reserved. Information: Comments: --------------------------------------------------------------- FYI: haven't tried the chair, but I have used a Datadesk Switchboard for years. It's a modular keyboard that does precisely what Engst wants: allows you to put the trackball on the right and the arrow pad on the left, with the main keyboard in the center. The touch and key response are wonderful (I type about 100 wpm), and the keyboard works on both Mac and IBM. Unfortunately, it's no longer made, and the trackball has required repairs half a dozen times. Datadesk assured me the trackball problems had been solved on the new TrackBoard, so last year I bought one. Like Engst, I was disappointed. The design is great, small footprint and attractive. But it just didn't function well. I'm back to my 7-year old Switchboard, praying it keeps going awhile longer, and still searching for the perfect keyboard! Reina Pennington Dept. of History, University of South Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:30:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: First Index Just got complemented on my first index....what a nice feeling! The index was a real challenge because of lack of space (only 12 columns or slightly over 700 lines total) as well as having only 1 week in which to do it. 1997 looks like it'll be a better year professionally since I've just gotten my first clients for proofreading, indexing and research, all within three months! Marketing does work...it does..it does.... Thanks to everyone for your congratulatory notes last week. Now on to getting more indexes as well as everything else that was put on hold for the past week! Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:58:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Outsourcing joke -Forwarded Ok, so it's not strictly indexing, but I thought you guys would all get a kick out of this... Date: 08/05/1997 11:49 am (Tuesday) From: John Stoner To: RUTHL, SHARONW, M1GWMAIL.JOYCEG, SEG, THGWMAIL.CAROLYN1, LISAK, DIANEM, MBC, SARAHG, M1GWMAIL.DIANAB, NANCYM Subject: Outsourcing joke I just send 'em on. >>> 08/05/97 11:30am >>> Outsourcing CANBERRA, ACT - Peter Fyfe, Director, Residences at the University of Canberra and father of two, has announced plans to outsource his children to a private enterprise specializing in child rearing as part of his family's cost saving effort. Fyfe said that his request for proposals will go out very soon, and that he hopes that a contractor will be in place by Christmas 1997. Fyfe says that he anticipates saving 25% of his child rearing expenses by hiring a company which specializes in the field. He believes that between the things that his kids destroy, the wear and tear the kids put on the family residence and vehicles, and the other expenses such as school and activities, he should be able to pay a private firm about 75% of what he currently spends on his children. Although his children have expressed concern that being raised by non-parents would be impersonal and would deprive them of some of their current privileges, Fyfe has worked to alleviate their fears. He held a family dinner meeting to announce the decision and told the kids that mere parents don't really know how to raise kids until the kids are grown. This is obvious because every grandparent on the street has advice to give to any parent they meet. A professional child rearing service would already know how to raise children and not make the mistakes of a rookie parent. The outsource proposal requires companies to provide the children with benefits at least the same overall level as they receive at home, with some benefits (TV hours for example) expanding, while others (parental attention) declining. The proposal mandates certain "core" benefits, such as food, clothing, and schooling; but, leaves the non-core (music, sport, television) at the discretion of the contractor. The outsourcing would phase in over a six month period, with the children initially spending daytime hours at their outsource site and sleeping at their parent's home; but, as space becomes available offsite, the children will begin spending all their time away from home except when they are desperately needed at home (for example, when the yard needs "patrolling"). The children originally expressed dismay at residing off-site, but Fyfe told them that they would have weekly visitation to the house to retrieve any personal belongings, get new books, 'perform' on their musical instruments or talk to, their parents. This would also allow the kids to visit their pet (one dog), at least until phase 2 of Fyfe's cost cutting spree, which includes outsourcing the family pet. Fyfe would not say where he came up with the idea of outsourcing the children, other than to admit that he and his wife were having a discussion about family finances which illustrated the need to raise the family in a "better, faster, cheaper" mode. Although his wife was initially reluctant to have the children raised offsite, Fyfe convinced her to accept the scheme because she too was eligible for "outsourcing." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:12:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Try these on: At 12:16 AM 8/5/97 +0100, Martha wrote: >Hi Indexers - Here's another opportunity to show your stuff. > >1 - In a history of Nevada, if Chris Columbus is not mentioned, but >Columbus (a town) is, do we need to mention that Columbus is a town? Wouldn't that depend on the sentence structure? Fictitious examples: "In 1912 the capital moved from Springfield to Poindexter, near Columbus." or "Productive silver mines made Alabaster, Columbus and Red River thrive." >3 - Spanish names can trick an indexer. I have exhausted Chicago and my >resources on the following, and will index as follows unless you have >different suggestions: > Medina, Bartolome' de > Miera y Pacheco, Bernardo de > PadillaFray Juan de Can these be indexed alphabetically under the *name* with the *de* in front? Such as: Madrone, Maria de Medina, Bartolome medulla oblongata de Miera y Pacheco, Bernardo .02 worth from -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:23:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: where's the list? Is the list alive and well? I don't remember seeing anything in the past few days, although I just got a response from my last post. Or is the UPS strike effecting the list? Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:21:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: Re: First Index Willa, what great news. I'm trying to get back into indexing after many years away. I've sent out 105 letters and no job yet, but I have ideas for more avenues to explore. I've been watching your postings with interest. Have you decided to move to NH? I live in eastern NY very near MA, VT, & CT. We vacationed in NH last year and we're going back to ME (which I love) in a week or so. I can see why you would consider NH as a free lancer. Hope the jobs keep coming. Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:48:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Postmodernist theology In-Reply-To: <199708042124.OAA17021@mx3.u.washington.edu> Dick: none expept to avoid indexing books of the type in question if you are not familar with this sort of thing. Paul (who wrote, not Richard Evans). On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > At 09:54 AM 8/4/97 -0700, you wrote: > >You will notice that I changed the subject to religion in my diatribe on > >Postmodernism. Anne: you are entitled to believe what you want. > >Personally, as a Marxist historian (unlike most on the list my background > >is not librarianship), I could not agree more about what a load of crap a > >good deal of what passed for established wisdom not so many decades ago > >snip > > And the significance of this to indexing is? > > Dick Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Is anything off-limits? In-Reply-To: <199708050505.WAA28865@mx2.u.washington.edu> Sarah: on refusing to index because of content. There was a heated discussion on Lantra-l (translator's BB) about 2 years ago as to whether one should refuse to translate an anti-Semitic book for a neo-NAZI (not capitalized for emphasis, but because it is an acronym) organization. My civil libertarian feelings say one should but good grief the NAZI's don't just talk about it they actually go out and kill people, or would if they could. So, there is free speech, and there is the Hughes' princple of not shouting "fire" in a crowded theater (and this approach became the basis of one of the worst repressions in American history). So .... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:12:52 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap In-Reply-To: <199708050713.AAA08342@pacific.net> Barbara wrote: >I've been thinking. (Surprised? :)) No Barbara, I am not. >I maintain that some postmodernist, deconstructionist, post-structuralist >theory is worthwhile. If we have to use big words to talk about it, and if >we take some time to sort out common meanings, that's ok with me. I have had the opportunity to index a few works that were interdisciplinary and which made an effort to avoid the jargon except for some guideposts every now and again. I am very excited about some of the questioning and reexamination that is going on. When I see the vituperative responses to this mode of inquiry I am reminded of the resistance that is always met with when those in power are made uncomfortable. By all means, fellow indexers, refuse the books. I am distressed by poor writing in whatever field; but if your reason for rejecting these works is the occurrence of the jargon, send it my way. I enjoy the interstices, the experimental, the deep questioning. As I have had the opportunity to examine closely the kinds of indexes that can be written by someone hostile to the position or to the field at hand, I would strongly encourage people to refuse whatever they do not know or appreciate. I, as a reader or subsequent indexer, can see it when you're hostile. The avoidance of central ideas, the lack of relevant cross-references, the missing of the gestalt are all-too-frequently, glaringly obvious. A request: Could we please avoid subject lines containing vulgar language? ::::I anticipate the "weak (female)" comments:::: Thank you. Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Try these on: I have to disagree with Lindsay this time, about the placement of the "de" in these Spanish names. According to AACR2 (Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules): "Rule 22.5D1 (for headings for persons): Spanish. If the prefix consists of an article only, enter under it. Las Heras, Manuel Antonio Enter all other names under the part following the prefix. Figueroa, Francisco de Casa, Bartolome de las Rio, Antonio del" Also, if someone like De la Hoya, Oscar is working/living/writing in an English-speaking country, the name is as given here. Otherwise, follow the traditional rules of Spanish-language names. In many cases the second name of a Spanish last name is that of the mother and is not the correct last name (Manuel Estrada Cabrera--the last name for indexing is Estrada Cabrera, for example). [Often, cross references are made from the second name to the correct name because users may not know of this naming convention.] So the Spanish names as Martha Osgood gave them this morning are correct, except for Padilla, Juan de (the "Fray" is a title for "Father" as in priest and should be left out). (For example: "Medina, Bartolome de" is given as such in Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary.) Vicente, Vincente are both used. At 09:12 AM 8/5/97 -0700, Lindsay Gower wrote: >At 12:16 AM 8/5/97 +0100, Martha wrote: >>Hi Indexers - Here's another opportunity to show your stuff. > >>3 - Spanish names can trick an indexer. I have exhausted Chicago and my >>resources on the following, and will index as follows unless you have >>different suggestions: >> Medina, Bartolome' de Miera y Pacheco, Bernardo de PadillaFray Juan de Tovar, Pedro de De La Hoya, Oscar (boxer) > >Can these be indexed alphabetically under the *name* with the *de* in >front? Such as: > > Madrone, Maria > de Medina, Bartolome > medulla oblongata > de Miera y Pacheco, Bernardo > > >.02 worth from -- LG > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- >Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com >Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 >Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 >1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com >San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:38:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: where's the list? Willa, something sure is affecting the list! I only got 18 messages yesterday, mostly about postmodernism. Congratulations on your first index. Suellen On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:23:38 -0700 Willa MacAllen writes: >Is the list alive and well? I don't remember seeing anything in the >past >few days, although I just got a response from my last post. > >Or is the UPS strike effecting the list? > >Willa MacAllen >MacAllen's Information Services >Librarian/Technical Writer >Boston >macallen@tiac.net > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:11:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: Postmodernist crap In a message dated 8/4/97 9:16:09 AM, you wrote: >I totally agree with Paul. I also agree with his intensity in disliking this >crap, because the results in society are devastating. Defining terms >consistently is obviously critical for rational thought and reasoning. If one >believes otherwise, the logical process breaks down and "conclusions" are >always suspect. > >Way to go! > >David The main problem that many people have with postmodernism, beyond the tendancy to use language that is practically impossible to understand, is that their primary premise is that Logic and Rationality (Note the caps) are illusions, stories we tell ourselves to make the universe a more comfortable, controllable place. Interestingly enough, the postmodernists seem to be converging with the physicists about the final unknowability of the universe. As for the weird language they use, that can be blamed in part on French philosophers from Lacan to Derrida and very bad translations of their work. Sorry to any translators on the list-I can't imagine trying to translate someone like Derrida. If you are interested in reading work from a parallel movement (that critiques concepts of Logic and Rationality) in American Analytic Philosophy, try reading Richard Rorty. He expresses many of the same ideas but his writing is much more readable. Try his Mirror of the Mind (or the Mirror of the Universe or something, I can't quite remember off the top of my head). For all of postmodernist's fancy rhetoric, all that they are trying to say (and explore) is that many of our long cherished beliefs in meaning, certainty, essentialism, foundationalism, etc. are very, very shaky. Sorry for the lecture. The teacher in me got loose there for a minute. Beth Tudor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:01:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Palmer Subject: Re: Postmodernist garbage (sorry Victoria) In response to Christine Shuttleworth's post under the heading "RE: Indexer's right to refuse (was: Postmodernist c...)" Barbara: See subsequent posts to Index-L under the heading of "Is anything off-limits?", where I took the point that everyone can choose what they do or don't index. Barbara:< Also, if the book is badly written, I wouldn't pass it on for publication. > Christine:>Well, I wouldn't be that fussy ... I didn't say I wouldn't *index* a book that was badly written, I was referring to Paul's comment that: Paul:>Postmodern deconstructionism, however, is the be all and end all, >the final truth, what lies below the seventh seal. But I don't want to >start a war. However, I refuse the index the stuff and likewise when I am >on publication committees I refuse to pass it on for publication. This sounded like censorship to me. It sounded like Paul was not letting it get published because it belonged to a school of thought that he happened to disagree with. However, he did go on to say that: Paul:> I am old >fashioned, I expect people to argue and present a coherent, reasoned >point-of-view. If they do they have my support even if I disagree entirely >but as for "making words mean what I want them to mean" and Orwellian >doublespeak.... Paul D. Buell If the book is *so* badly written that it doesn't present a coherent point of view, then I guess he would be right about not passing it on to be published. Thanks for your comments, and I do take your point about not wanting to work on a book that you find morally repulsive, as do I. Everybody has their limits of this kind ("How to build a bomb" etc.) We could open up the whole debate about whether that man should have the right to publish his book or lecture on that topic, but I think I'll leave that to Chomsky and alt.censorship.whatever. Barbara Palmer barbarap@phm.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:09:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Postmodernist cr*p In-Reply-To: <199708051823.LAA04935@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 11:12 AM 8/5/97 LCL, Victoria wrote: >A request: Could we please avoid subject lines containing vulgar language? > ::::I anticipate the "weak (female)" comments:::: The second word of the subject line is an abbreviation of the last name of Mr. Cr*pper, whose invention revolutionized sanitation in the Western world. (Little did he know what would happen to his last name, though...) ;-D (Just joking with you. Honestly.) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:51:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Text books I am working on a college text for network administrators. Each chapter ends with a set of review questions. Each question takes up about a page: a multiple choice question and an explanation of the correct answer. This adds up to 10 out of 22 pages for the current chapter. Should I index the questions? For example, the chapter contains a definition of "trust relationships" One of the review questions is "Which of the following is the definition of a trust relationship?" It presents four choices, followed by a paragraph that reiterates the definition that appeared earlier in the chapter. My inclination is to use the questions as a guide and make sure that I index the corresponding topics in the chapter but not index the questions themselves. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:17:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: Text books Dick, A lot of the computer books that I index also have review questions at the end of each chapter. I tend to skip the review questions...and the accompanying summary, exercises, quiz questions, workshops, etc. It sounds to me like you're on the right track to use the questions as a guide for what topics should definitely be indexed within the chapter, but not actually index the questions themselves. Cheryl Jackson Sams Publishing, a division of Macmillan Computer Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Text books Author: Richard Evans at Internet Date: 8/5/97 7:51 PM I am working on a college text for network administrators. Each chapter ends with a set of review questions. Each question takes up about a page: a multiple choice question and an explanation of the correct answer. This adds up to 10 out of 22 pages for the current chapter. Should I index the questions? For example, the chapter contains a definition of "trust relationships" One of the review questions is "Which of the following is the definition of a trust relationship?" It presents four choices, followed by a paragraph that reiterates the definition that appeared earlier in the chapter. My inclination is to use the questions as a guide and make sure that I index the corresponding topics in the chapter but not index the questions themselves. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:15:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marlene London Subject: Re: First Index I'd be interested in knowing how you experienced indexers out there obtained your first indexing assignment. What kind of marketing has been successful for you? Marlene London Profindex@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: First Index Hi Marlene: >I'd be interested in knowing how you experienced indexers out there >obtained your first indexing assignment. What kind of marketing has been >successful for you? My business, even in the early stages (some 15 or 16 years ago now), came virtually 100% from word of mouth, referrals, and networking. I can't even claim to have planned things this way: that's just the way it happened. I've never made a cold call, run an ad (unless you count directory listings), or sent an unsolicited brochure or resume. For the first three years, I kept a part-time job (12 hours a week year-round at first; later 20 hours a week from September to May) that supported me (I was 25, single, and debt-free; I lived in a room in a house shared with 5 other adults and 2 kids) while I got the training I needed to "graduate" from doing "editorial word processing" (inputting text that had been copyedited by a professional) and start taking on small projects as either proofreader, copyeditor, or indexer. My first indexing client, in 1985, was a man I'd known socially for some years--an astronomy professor at the University of Toronto. He had some grant money (ah, those were the days) to produce the proceedings of a high-level conference that had generated some exciting new work in the field of stellar classification. Bob knew that I had been training for two years, learning editing and indexing while working part-time as a clerk/secretary in the editorial department of U of T Press. He hired me to do *all* the work on this multi-author book: I input the papers, copyedited them (and the discussion sections), proofread the typeset copy after the design and typesetting folks at UTP had done their magic, and wrote the index. I charged him half the going hourly rate, since we both knew I was learning a lot on the job. The work consumed me for several months; the _Chicago Manual of Style_ (the 13th edition of which had just recently been released) became my bedtime reading. The whole thing was the first book-length project I'd ever worked on. To this day, I'm proud of it. (Bob tells me that no one has ever found a typo in it; he graciously submitted my work on it to the judges of the annual Editorial Excellence contest sponsored by what was then the Freelance Editors' Association of Canada [FEAC], and I received an Honourable Mention among that year's candidates.) My next index, late in 1986, was for a book that I'd proofed earlier that year for a Canadian college textbook publisher. At that time, there weren't many copyeditors or proofreaders in Canada who could also create indexes. Publishers seemed to think I'd be able to index their books more quickly, and/or do a better job of indexing them, if I'd already become familiar with the material by working on it in an earlier stage. To this day, I do a lot of indexes on this basis. How did that textbook publisher originally find out about my editorial services? They were referred to me by an established editor. He and I became friends through our volunteer work in FEAC. (On the advice of still another editor, I'd joined in 1983 and become active; by 1985 I was serving on the executive.) After some months of stacking chairs and stuffing envelopes together (okay, plus a couple of post-meeting coffee/beer/Scotch sessions), he tested me by subcontracting a couple of small projects to me. The first was just an hour! Evidently my work impressed him, since he not only paid me, but subsequently sent his favourite client directly to me when he either didn't want or didn't have time for a job. Next index, also late in 1986, was another referral from the same man, this time to another freelancer, who hired me as indexer (again as a subcontractor) for a book she'd edited. The next indexing-related job was probably the one that really kick-started my indexing career, though. This same man (obviously by now a valued mentor, and still a dear friend) lived across the hall from yet another of Toronto's top freelancers. She had in fact taught the _Introductory Copyediting_ course I took; I all but worshipped the ground she walked on. She bought a computer and Macrex in the same month, thinking that she could learn her way around the machine and the software quickly enough to produce an index for one of *her* favourite clients, a respected publisher of children's books. Soon, of course, she discovered that she'd bitten off more than she could chew. On the strength of her neighbour's recommendation (he knew I had a computer of my own--a little XT, as I recall--because he'd referred me to the guy who sold it to me), she hired me to input the entries while she highlighted. Working alongside my idol, I taught myself Macrex on the fly, input the entries, printed out the raw index, watched her edit it, and then input the changes she'd marked. Needless to say, I learned tons about indexing in the process. And subsequently, she has referred many clients to me, for editing and proofreading as well as for indexing. I knew I'd "made it" as a freelancer when I was able to return the favour, and refer work to both these people (as well as to others who had entered the profession after me). Others on this list will tell you that they've sent out resumes and sample indexes. No doubt these methods work, too, provided you've gotten the required training and started to build a "portfolio" of indexes (perhaps as a volunteer: lots of not-for-profit associations publish books as part of their public-education programs--I'll be indexing just such a volume later this year). But I'm not qualified to tell you how to use that approach, since I never used it myself. Best of luck to you, Marlene. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer, Trainer Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "Life is just a bowl of queries." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:27:25 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gerry McKiernan Subject: Time, Space, Matter and the Milky Way: Facet Analysis of the Library of Congress Subject Headings (LCSH) Time, Space, Matter and the Milky Way: Facet Analysis of the Library of Congress Subject Headings (LCSH) For my ever-ending (yes, it is _still_ ever-ending) review of 'neo-conventional' thesauri, I am interested in learning of _any effort than has performed a Faceted Analysis of the Library of Congress Subject Headings (LCSH). I'm particularly interested in the any application of the philosophy of Dr. Facet, S.R. Ranganthan, of Facet Analysis to LCSH. Other efforts to Facet LCSH are also of interest. In one or more of his writings, Dr. R categorized ALL of KNOWLEDGE into Four Major Facets: Time Space Energy Matter Personality [He didn't say anything about the Milky Way (that I know about), but I like the Candy Bar {:->] As always, any citations, suggestions, reactions, critiques, comments, insights [faceted or otherwise] will be most welcome.

Thanks

Gerry McKiernan Curator, CyberStacks(sm) Iowa State University Ames IA 50011 gerrymnck@iastate.edu http://www.public.iastate.edu/~CYBERSTACKS/ "Show Me the System" P.S. How About a Conference on Ranganthan to Recognize Dr. R's contribution to 21st century IR? He _was_ a Mind A Head of It's Time [:->] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:40:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Postmodernist cr*p Lynn wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Text books -Reply We index textbooks among other things here, and my personal rule of thumb is that I don't index review questions or annotations that appear at the end of the chapter unless in the explanation of the answers the author provides some new information that is not provided elsewhere in the text. Just my 2?! :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:33:51 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: First Index In-Reply-To: <19970806011833.AAA10615@pentium> Marlene, I'm sort of notorious on the list for my first index which was extremely problematic. I still meet people at the ASI conventions and they say, "Oh yes, the Rabbi's book." My face gets red, but it makes me feel good in a strange way. I got my first by just telling every person I knew or met that I was an indexer. Finally told my Rabbi and he said, "well, you can index my book. I was wondering what I was going to do about that." Easy as that. Or so I thought. The book kept getting delayed and delayed until it finally arrived 4 months late the day before I was to leave for a 2 week vacation. So it was put off another 2 weeks. I have gotten 2 clients from cold-calling publishers, I got one by participating in a discussion here on the list that someone was specifically looking for and had searched the archives and come up with my post (I've done about 6 books for them now), and several by referrals from colleagues. I appreciate those the most. I have enough work so I'm not marketing right now, but if I did, I'd cold-call again. Rachel >I'd be interested in knowing how you experienced indexers out there >obtained your first indexing assignment. What kind of marketing has been >successful for you? >Marlene London >Profindex@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: First Index > I'd be interested in knowing how you experienced indexers out there > obtained your first indexing assignment. What kind of marketing has been > successful for you? > Marlene London Marlene, I thought I'd reply on-list since this question is of interest to all us beginners. I got my first job just over a week ago as a result of cold-calling publishers, then sending a resume and sample index. I tailored my resume and cover letter, depending on what kind of books they publish and what was said on the phone. Cold-calls have two advantages over mass mailing alone: you can find out the name of the best person to send your resume to, and you may get lucky (as I did) and find someone who is desperately in need of someone -- *anyone* -- in a hurry. Cold-calls also saved me having to send out a resume in a few cases where "we don't use freelancers." OTOH, I did talk a few small pubs into keeping my resume on file in case an author didn't want to do his/her own index. I have to admit that I don't like cold-calling, but it worked. I did use a "script", and I practiced various scenarios beforehand so that I wouldn't sound too awkward. Nonetheless, my first few calls were pretty awful! (Call really small publishers first -- it's less intimidating and you get to practice!) I'm very aware that I got my first job so quickly due to luck...I happened to call at the right time; they asked if I could fax my resume; they called back within a week. However, I wouldn't have gotten the job if I hadn't called. Two other notes on calling publishers: between 1/3 and 1/2 of those I've contacted had 800 numbers, so the cost of the calls wasn't as bad as I feared it might be. And be prepared to leave a lot of voicemail messages. Some will even be returned (eventually!) Obviously, I'm just one case, and I'm really interested to see what experienced indexers and other beginners have to say. Kara M. Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:23:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: First Index In-Reply-To: <199708061416.AA19892@world.std.com> I got my first editing job with a cold call to the publisher associated with the computer company I'd worked for as a software engineer. It was luck (as most of my jobs have been) - they were looking for someone with a technical background for a book that was ready to start. In fact, I left a voice mail and the secretary apparently thought I sounded good and passed my number on to the production editor. How I got my first indexing job was related. This publisher had a large book which was constantly being updated and they decided to go with index entries embedded in the chapter files. Of course, they needed someone to insert all those index tags so they hired me to do that. When they began preparing the next edition, they said, "Go take Susan Holbert's indexing course so you can index the next edition of this book." So I did and I've worked on the index of this book for 5 years on and off. The good and bad was that I inherited someone else's indexing style. I learned from it and also learned a few things not to do. As an aside, I found something interesting in a book. It's a book about publishing so I looked in the index to see if they had any information about indexing. I found one entry, index, that pointed to the first page of the book's index. Has anyone ever heard of this policy before? Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:32:29 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: Internet World booth in Sydney, NSW, Aug 11-14? Hi I am thinking of putting up a small booth at Internet World for my small Web business (http://www.zip.com.au/~dwight/WWWalker.html). I would like to promote AusSI as well as my new fledgling Web business. May be too we could put some stuff about electronic indexing on it - tools, examples etc. Heck the last two years for me has been a large learning curve putting the AusSI Web site on the map. Any electronically able people in your area put onto me. Contacts in other states would be great. Any input welcome. Please email urgently as it costs over $2000 plus it starts on 11 Aug. Bye Dwight ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-2-94393750 (w) W-F, fax +61-2-94383729 (w) URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:56:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Peregrim Subject: First Job Hello to all, I found my first indexing job (about one year ago) by approaching the editor/publisher of a periodical (and many books) that I had enjoyed for years. The gentleman in question was a highly-approachable sort with whom I had chatted (quite anonymously, informally and non-professionally) once or twice previously. When I encountered him at an event where his publishing company had a booth, I was just starting to get up the nerve to begin marketing and thought this might be a great, low-pressure place to start. I asked who did the indexing for their press, and was told: "The employee who's currently in the doghouse - none of us like to do it." This led to a discussion of indexing, the periodical, and the approaching ten year anniversary of its first issue. Within a half hour, I had landed my first job. John Peregrim Indexing Services 5710 Callie Lane, F Sacramento, CA 95841 (916)334-5094 Peregrim22@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:30:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Postmodernist cr*p In-Reply-To: <199708052336.QAA11616@mx2.u.washington.edu> As a sidebar/FYI to Lynn's comment for those who plan to attend the ASI Annual Meeting in Seattle in 1998, be sure to schedule a couple of hours to take the Seattle Underground Tour - a wonderfully irreverent version of Seattle's history, including how the Sons of the Profits [that's accurate spelling!] took advantage of the Great Seattle Fire to rebuild the city the RIGHT way, and the part that the Crapper Device(TM) played in that rebuilding. If you want more details, you'll just have to come to Seattle! This is NOT a paid commercial message or something scheduled on the program (as far as I know). The Underground Tour just happens to be my "must see" recommendation for visiting friends and relatives! Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > The second word of the subject line is an abbreviation of the last name of > Mr. Cr*pper, whose invention revolutionized sanitation in the Western > world. (Little did he know what would happen to his last name, though...) > ;-D (Just joking with you. Honestly.) > > Lynn > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:38:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: postmodernism I find postmodernist writing difficult to understand, to the point where I tell editors these days that the really dense stuff is beyond my expertise. (I have an indexer I recommend in those cases.) Once I said that to an editor I've worked with a lot, and he started to laugh. It turned out that the book was a review of postmodernism, as applied to modern Chinese thought and culture....by a writer whose first language was Chinese! He told me that he thought I could do as good a job as anyone, and I was to do my best. And he paid me extra. And the book was actually somewhat easier to understand then some others I've tried. Live and learn! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:38:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: missing pages Kara wrote: << I finished the index and sent it off Saturday -- minus p. 176, which they somehow missed sending to me! (Of course I tried to contact the editor, but he was out of town until today.) They're sending me the page, and I'll email the corrections as soon as I get it. BTW, does this sort of thing happen often? >> Oh, all the time! This is why I always go through and look at each page as soon as I receive the proofs, even if I'm going to pack my indexing into the last week. Then I call the editor immediately. They either fax or mail the page to me right away. Now, changing what's on which page in the middle of the process is the other thing that happens once in a while...they're usually pretty nice about it, and so am I, unless it happens right before I mail the index. Then I ask for more time (or possibly more money, if it's a major change). Do Mi Stauber DStaub11@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:06:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Text books Dick wrote: << I am working on a college text for network administrators. Each chapter ends with a set of review questions.... Should I index the questions? ... My inclination is to use the questions as a guide and make sure that I index the corresponding topics in the chapter but not index the questions themselves. >> Right, Dick. You shouldn't usually index review questions unless the publisher specifically wants it. It should be obvious enough to readers that they can find reviews at the ends of chapters, and the questions don't present new information about their subjects. The only exception I've made to this is when the reviews come in the middle of the chapter, after each small topic/section. Then I just include the review pages in the pages for that topic--seems misleading otherwise. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:55:10 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Heinlein Subject: articles, preposition, conjunctions Hi, all. I'm working on my second index (man, is this hard work!) and could use advice about function words in subentries. I've used them in most entries (authoritarianism: and economic policy; and NGOs; and social movements; etc.) but they look funny under entries that are countries (Argentina: inflation in; social movements in; etc.) because I get a long string of "in, in, in." Would in be bad form to leave them out of country entries and use them in others, as long as I do it consistently? Or would that be a consistency too obscure to impose on the index? Thanks for your advice. Patricia Heinicke heinlein@sfsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:48:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: First Index At 11:23 AM 8/6/97 -0400, Sarah H Lemaire wrote: >As an aside, I found something interesting in a book. It's a book about >publishing so I looked in the index to see if they had any information >about indexing. I found one entry, index, that pointed to the first page >of the book's index. Has anyone ever heard of this policy before? This sounds like the sort of glitch that so-called "indexing" programs attached to page layout software or word processors introduce...they're more a concordance than a real index, and of course the page number would be the first page on which the word "index" is used...the opening page of the index! Just another reason to employ human, intelligent indexers who know how to use dedicated indexing software WITH their brains engaged... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:57:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions Patricia, I fall into the "generally always use prepositions, conjunctions, etc." camp, but there are as many opinions as there are indexing niches. I think that you should follow the practice in the particular field of the book, for example, technical documents, manuals, and how-to books seem to do fine without prepositions (I try to use gerund subheads: "Files: printing" in this sort of index), but in scholarly books, the nuances of concepts often require careful use of propositions and conjunctions in subheads for clarity. When in doubt, I'm less bothered by repeated prepositions than I am by obscurity of meaning. Barbara Cohen Indexing and Editorial Services Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:32:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Where is INDEX-L I haven't gotten index-l for the past several days. Is it alive? Do I need to resubscribe to it? Help....... Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Tehcnical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:21:38 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Schwilk, Michael" Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions Patricia, At Harcourt, we try to avoid prepositions (and always avoid conjunctions and articles) unless the relationship of the subentry to the main entry is unclear. Almost always the relationship can be implied. I really cringe when I get index in which each sub ends with an and. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:56:36 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions In-Reply-To: <199708061853.LAA12152@pacific.net> Patricia asks: >I'm working on my second index (man, is this hard work!) and could use >advice about function words in subentries. I've used them in most entries >(authoritarianism: and economic policy; and NGOs; and social movements; >etc.) but they look funny under entries that are countries (Argentina: >inflation in; social movements in; etc.) because I get a long string of >"in, in, in." Would in be bad form to leave them out of country entries and >use them in others, as long as I do it consistently? Or would that be a >consistency too obscure to impose on the index? In run-on indexes in the type of subject matter you're describing I generally keep the prep's and conjunc's. If it is an indented-style index I write my subentries with them, initially. When editing, I look at each main entry to determine whether to keep them or not. For instance, if I've used the same preposition in every single subentry, I usually feel I can delete the prepositions in that case because the nuance of meaning is consistent within that main entry. But if I have a long string of "ins" and then I have a "to", that information becomes necessary to retain. I try to use them selectively and very very carefully. Sometimes I take the tack that each subentry is written with an invisible "and", and that variations from that warrant more information. I write my subentries really carefully. And I do work to retain consistency in categories of entries, such as the countries, as you mention. Perhaps someone else would feel that my approach is too inconsistent within a single index. I'll be interested to hear. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:01:51 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Internet World booth in Sydney, NSW, Aug 11-14? Dwight, I have now received your second email about Internet World, giving more info. At 01:32 AM 7/08/97 +1100, you wrote: >I am thinking of putting up a small booth at Internet World for my small Web >business (http://www.zip.com.au/~dwight/WWWalker.html). I would like to >promote AusSI as well as my new fledgling Web business. May be too we could >put some stuff about electronic indexing on it - tools, examples etc. I'm not sure what you have mind here. And can intersting stuff be put together in the time available? >Heck >the last two years for me has been a large learning curve putting the AusSI >Web site on the map. Any electronically able people in your area put onto >me. Contacts in other states would be great. > >Any input welcome. Please email urgently as it costs over $2000 plus it >starts on 11 Aug. I still don't know where it is, who's sponsoring it or what the likely audience is. My first reaction is that this a big-time conference exhibition fee (like, say, Online), and really too much for AusSI to find unless we could see some definite benefits. Sorry to sound negative, but that's the way it strikes me. We have the same problem every year when we consider the cost/benefit of exhibiting at shows like the ABPA Book Fair (just finished at Darling Harbour). Regards...Alan **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ssmckitt@CORD.IUPUI.EDU Subject: Weekend plans In-Reply-To: <199708061913.OAA22155@velcome.iupui.edu> Barbara, The strength training workshop I was going to attend on Friday and Saturday has been cancelled. If you need help with the gardening book on Saturday, please let me know. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:12:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions -Reply I agree with Michael. One of my pet peeves here is indexes where every entry ends with a preposition or an article. I delete almost all of them, unless, as he says, the relationship isn't clear from the context (it almost always is). It's just a stylistic preference-- I've never seen any hard and fast rules about this sort of thing, but I think that overuse of prepositions makes for a cluttered index. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:41:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: <--- unprintable @#!$% To keep myself from hollering and screaming at the client, can I rant and rave and throw things in here? Thanks. The project: Index two manuals in FrameMaker+SGML and... see below..... 1) Friday, the prospective client asks me if I have an Iomega Zip drive to send me the files on. I told him, no I didn't. "What?!!" he asks incredously. "You do embedded indexing and you don't have an Iomega drive?!!" "No," I reply. "Only once was I asked if I had one and that wasn't even for an embedded indexing project." (Apparently that other client wanted me to print out 60 Megs worth of files. He ended up sending me the hard copy as usual.) "Everyone simply sends the files on multiple disks, zipped if necessary." He says, "Well, everyone I know has an Iomega drive!" I grit my teeth silently and politely say, "I've considered buying one for other purposes, but to date I haven't needed one for embedded indexing projects which I do a lot of." He says, "Well maybe I can ftp the files to you." "That'll work," I reply, "but I'll still need the hard copy to work from." After a lot of hemming and hawing, he grudgingly agrees in the face of my insistence (i.e., I charge extra for printing). Then, "Do you have FrameMaker+ SGML?" "No, I don't think so, I have FM 5 and I don't think it includes an SGML module." I open FM while talking to him just to be sure. It turns out that FM+SGML is a whole other flavor of FM, not some sort of plug-in. He tells me he has to talk with his boss. Fine. 2) Monday: He calls and tells me that he'll courier the FM+SGML CD-ROM to me. I ask him for a rough page count on the two books which have a one-week turn around. He didn't know. I insist on an estimate because the turnaround time depended on it. He guesses that one is ~100 pp and the other is smaller. It sounds doable. He also tells me that I must use the master index for the series and that their client also has a style guide to be followed. (I'm not totally thrilled because it means more things to refer to while working, but OK.) One of the books, he says, already was indexed previously by the author, but the index doesn't follow the style guide. I tell him that whenever that happens, I simply strip out the old index markers and start fresh, rather than try to work around someone's index (especially a non-indexer's). "Well, just make sure that you keep the same concepts that the author did," he says. OK, so I have to work with the the previous index which didn't follow the master index, the master index, and the styleguide. This is beginning to sound like a pain. I mention that I first create embedded indexes in dedicated indexing software before embedding to produce a higher quality index. He insists that this is not necessary. We have a near argument over this and I finally drop it as this really isn't his call to make. He tells me that I need to call his boss to negotiate rates. I told him I'd call him after discussing this with his boss to tell him whether to send me the files, etc. The negotiations went fine and I called him back, telling him to send me the stuff. 3) The courier arrives a few hours later. One of the books is 247 indexable pages, not 100 pages. The smaller book is ~100 pages and is perfect-bound!!!!!!!!!! Great. I'll have to jerry-rig my copy stand so it'll stay open flat. The indexing style guide is 11 pages long, very detailed, and of course has a few unusual styles. The master index is 18 pages long and was obviously was not prepared by a professional indexer. I will have to put my subentries under all of these adjectival main headings, just as an example. (Whoever prepared the master index didn't even follow the style guide which correctly states that only nouns and gerunds are to be used for main headings. Cute!) These indexes definitely will not go into my porfolio. 3) I download the files from the ftp site. Even on a 115k connection, it took 20 minutes for each zipped file. Of course, an error occurs in downloading the second file right at the end of the download and I have to download the file again. So, I spend an hour downloading files, telling hubby that we could eat leftover birthday cake for dinner for all I cared. (He made a normal dinner.) Hubby installs the 100Meg FM+SGML onto the hard drive later that evening where it now sits along with FM 4 and FM 5. Of course, it took two tries to get it to install correctly. 4) Tuesday (while I'm trying to get another index done before starting on this nightmare): He calls and asks me if we got the software installed because everyone has difficulty installing it. Tell me about it. He asks me to courier the CD-ROM back to him (giving me the wrong city as the address, BTW). He also tells me that entering index markers is different in this version of FM. I open FM while we talk. He hastily guides me through what used to be a relatively easy process that I could do in my sleep, but now requires messing around in two additional dialog boxes for every single marker and more mouse actions!!!!!! Then, he gets somewhat annoyed because I didn't get it the first time he explained it. I really begin to lose it at this point and rather annoyedly tell him that I did not know that it would be this difficult when I negotiated my rates. He sort of stammers something about Adobe having received a lot of complaints about it (I'm sure they did!) and we end the phone call. I pop two nitro pills. The courier calls and says they'll be two hours late because of the UPS strike. I call him again and he tells me to have them send it to a different address. I call the courier again, fill out a new label on the envelope and realize he forgot to give me his apartment #, but at least he gave me the right city this time. I called my mother to vent. She couldn't talk because she had to go out right away. Needing an outlet other than smashing things in my office and screaming at my poor innocent husband (I apologized), I decided to post this tale here, get it out of my system so I can go back to work (on a index documenting--yikes!--the same software I was working on when I had my heart attack!). Thanks for listening! (And those of you I owe email to, please bear with me. I'll get back to you as soon as possible.) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions Barbara Cohen said it so well!! << I think that you should follow the practice in the particular field of the book, for example, technical documents, manuals, and how-to books seem to do fine without prepositions .... but in scholarly books, the nuances of concepts often require careful use of propositions and conjunctions in subheads for clarity. >> There's only one thing I can add. Ask your publisher what their preferred style is. As Mike Schwilk pointed out, Harcourt has a set policy on this. Your publisher probably does too. So get to know each client's style, and then it won't be so much of a judgment call each time. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:04:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: <--- unprintable @#!$% At 01:41 PM 8/6/97 -0700, Lynn Moncrief wrote: >To keep myself from hollering and screaming at the client, can I rant and >rave and throw things in here? Thanks. Lynn, this sounds like the Job from Hell, accompanied by Beezelbub himself! I just hope you negotiated a nice, fat rate AND upped it when you found out that the first index was 2.5 times bigger than promised. Feel free to vent further if necessary, and keep those nitro tabs handy... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:22:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: <--- unprintable @#!$% At 02:04 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 01:41 PM 8/6/97 -0700, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > >>To keep myself from hollering and screaming at the client, can I rant and >>rave and throw things in here? Thanks. Providing your client doesn't follow the list. You never know. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:42:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was piglet@EYOR.CSD.SGI.COM From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions Wasn't it Mencken who said "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..."? I've nothing against it personally, and I consider it reasonably important (as an editor I've certainly clubbed enough writers over the head with it), but not nearly as important as providing a transparent interface to content. I'm very interested in knowing what your editors expect (are their specifications for the job that specific up front?), how they handle your innovations, etc. I'd also be interested in your stories about encounters with editors -- how do you deal with editorial changes you may or may not agree with? Are these control issues worked out in advance? Thanks for any response... Julie Victoria Baker wrote: > > I try to use them selectively and very very carefully. Sometimes I take > the tack that each subentry is written with an invisible "and", and that > variations from that warrant more information. I write my subentries > really carefully. > > And I do work to retain consistency in categories of entries, such as the > countries, as you mention. Perhaps someone else would feel that my > approach is too inconsistent within a single index. I'll be interested to > hear. > > Victoria > > vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:20:37 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: Internet World booth - followup, AusSI Web site upgrade volunteers Hi That previous note was written rather late last night. Please ignore. You may want to contact me if you're interested in Web development or just plain interested in how I did the AusSI site. We are upgrading or refining the site. If you have 1 year's HTML experience and are interested in the Society, please contact me for details on how you can volunteer as HTML assistants. The Internet moves at such a frightful pace. I was trying to see where I fitted into all of this as I left my old company about 4 weeks ago and am looking for work. (Please do not flame me. This is genuine and I think once in a blue moon, a note re someone's job-seeking is not out of line on the internet. We can't live on air.) Also please email direct as I'm not on this list (due to volume of traffic). If you see something relevant to our Society e.g. a conference date on INDEX-L please forward it to me. Cheers Dwight ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-2-94393750 (w) W-F, fax +61-2-94383729 (w) URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions At 01:42 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >Wasn't it Mencken who said "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little >minds..."? Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. " Note that the comment applies to *foolish* consistencies. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:30:56 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: internet indexing work - what is it? Hi As I was describing plans to promote indexing skills on the internet at that computer fair (Internet World), I thought I'd just fly a flag here. Are there any indexers out there who do indexing of Web sites - intranet or internet? When I Iaunched the Web indexing prize about a year ago (1996 one), I got an enquiry from UK about whether there was any work out there for this kind of new indexing - a cross between database indexing and back of book indexing and then some. Please email me if you have done any internet indexing whether in the way the prize entrants were doing it (http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/auswebpr.html) or in your own area. The Web Indexing Prize will be on again this year. Details to follow. Closing date will be 30 November 1997. Contact me for details. Dwight ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-2-94393750 (w) W-F, fax +61-2-94383729 (w) URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:39:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was piglet@EYOR.CSD.SGI.COM From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions Thanks Richard and Kris, For citing the true origin of the quotation as well as its true text. This was exactly my point! I'm shutting up now... Julie Richard Evans wrote: > > At 01:42 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Wasn't it Mencken who said "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little > >minds..."? > > Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little > minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. " > > Note that the comment applies to *foolish* consistencies. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:15:05 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: <--- unprintable @#!$% In-Reply-To: <199708062047.NAA24536@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Thank you, Lynn, for a wonderfully funny version of the beginning of your week! May my own luck hold out... You wrote >To keep myself from hollering and screaming at the client, can I rant and >rave and throw things in here? Thanks. > >The project: Index two manuals in FrameMaker+SGML and... see below..... > >1) Friday, the prospective client asks me if I have an Iomega Zip drive to >send me the files on. I told him, no I didn't. "What?!!" he asks >incredously. "You do embedded indexing and you don't have an Iomega >drive?!!" "No," I reply. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:45:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions -Reply Sharon Wright wrote: > > I agree with Michael. One of my pet peeves here is > indexes where every entry ends with a preposition or > an article. I delete almost all of them, unless, as he > says, the relationship isn't clear from the context (it > almost always is). What sort of mechanism (if any) do you use to provide feedback to the indexer after editing the index? Phone call, meeting, e-mail? Are these in-house indexers, or freelancers? Just curious, Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Prepositions Hans Wellisch has this to say on the use of prepositions. "Experienced cooks know that hot spices and strong seasonings such as red pepper and garlic should be used sparingly, and only where they will enhance the natural flavor of a dish. The same is true for the use of prepositions in subheadings . . . A study of the characteristics of award-winning indexes to historical works showed that about 85% of their subheadings did not start or end with prepositions." Fred Leise "Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Doug Williams Subject: Re: Task Orientation >This is another question for the programmers on the list. > >When indexing objects, methods, properties, etc. I try to index not only >the item itself but the task under which a programmer might look for it. >For instance, there is an Err object that has a Description property. The >text says: "The Description property stores the description of an error >that just occurred." > >This effectively says to the programmer: "When an error occurs, your >program can find the description in the Description property." With that >in mind, which of the following would make most sense? > >error description, storing >erorr description, property for >erorr description, retrieving > >... or some other? > Dick, My copy of Microsoft's "Building Applications with MS Access 97" shows the following entries for the Err object: Err object described 171, 237 Description property implementing error handling with 468 trapping errors with 244 handling errors from the server 554 Number property 242-243 Raise Method ... I am a programmer, and I would expect to find any properties, methods, etc. under the object itself, as shown in the example. If you add entries such as in your example, you risk ambiguity over the term "error description" which is similar to "error message" in the context of errors. My first reaction is "huh?", whereas with a listing of the "description property" I have the proper context. This may not apply to other objects such as forms, tables, queries, procedures, etc. In general, as you might expect, programmers use the index of a printed manual as a last resort, after the "online" (i.e. digital) resources have been searched and exhausted. I include the MS Knowledge Base and their web site support pages in "online." Doug Williams ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:19:04 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: articles, prepositions and conjunctions The British Standard on preparing indexes - BS3700 - takes the view that prepositions should only be used if their absence might cause ambiguity. This applies to headings and sub-headings, and they give the example: access to the countryside countryside: public access ("to" unnecessary) it's not clear whether or not they approve the style of the first heading - it's not the sort of heading I would choose to use. My own personal preferences are to use prepositions etc as little as possible, although there are many occasions when I have to use them to make the meaning clear eg: hearing assessment in newborn where to leave out the "in" might infer something different. My main intention in sub-headings, especially when there is a long list of them, is to get the most significant word to the front, so that it is alphabetized eg: palpitations drug induced induced by drugs however I'm not quite sure whether palpitations publisher induced would make quite as much sense - except to Lynn (my sympathies BTW) Liza Weinkove liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:03:42 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: paper recycling - UK I've just been to Sainsbury's recycling area to dispose of a large pile of old indexed page proofs, and I was able to put them in a bin collecting for the current Blue Peter appeal. This is called "Paper Chain", and they want junk mail, glossy leaflets, white paper, white envelopes and greetings cards. The money raised is for a charity called "whizz-kidz" and they aim to raise money to provide electric wheelchairs for non-mobile children. It seems like a worthwhile cause, so I thought I would mention it for the benefit of other indexers in the UK, in case like me you no longer watch Blue Peter (my children are too old!) Liza e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:54:44 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Widad MUSTAFA Subject: 5th International ISKO Conference IFTH INTERNATIONAL ISKO CONFERENCE Call for Papers The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) will conduct its fifth International Conference (ISKO 5) in Lille, France, August 25-29 1998. The theme of the conference is : Structures and Relations in Knowledge Organization The conference will focus on knowledge structures as represented in the human mind, in the formation of categories, in information handling tools, including classification schemes, thesauri and indexing systems, knowledge structures as represented in computers and intelligent systems, indexing systems. On the other hand the conference will discuss the role of relations in knoweldge organization from diverse perspectives: Papers and panels addressing this theme from any of the following perspectives are invited : 1. Theory of knowledge organization: History, paradigms, philosophy, societal aspects, epistemology, division of the sciences. 2. Disciplinary and interdisciplinary approaches to knowledge organization: The discipline-oriented approach: Formalization of structures and relations in linguistics, in semiotics, in cognitive sciences, in computer science , in artificial intelligence. 3. Cognitive approaches to knoweldge organization: Conceptual entities and inter-concepts relations, concept representation in systems, classical and faceted classifications and their use in information organization and retrieval, concept representation in knowledge-based systems, object-oriented analysis and design, multimedia architectures, types of relations. 4. Design of information systems: Structure and relations in indexing and retrieval languages, design of controlled vocabularies, terminology building and extraction tools, thesauri and metathesauri, multilingual thesauri, standardization of relationships, problems of compatibility. 5. The Comparative approach: Common and particular relationships in different knowledge systems. 6. Linguistics in knoweldge organization: Special purpose languages, technical writing, intelligent text processing, the use of natural language as specification interface for the design of information systems, natural language processing-based systems and their use in knoweldge representation and extraction. 7. New technologies for knowledge organization: Structures and relations in online environment, applications of classical and faceted structures to computer-based indexing and retrieval systems, search engines, distributed and multilingual knowledge-bases, computer supported co-operative work. 8. The Pragmatic approach: Users profile modelling. 9. Universals in structures and relations in knowledge Organization Theoreticians, researchers and practitioners in the field of structures and relations in knowedge organization are invited to submit abstract of between 500-1000 words by December 1, 1997, to Widad Mustafa Elhadi, Conference Chair UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve D'Ascq France Phone 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 Fax: 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. An international Program Committee will select the papers for presentation, and authors will be notified by February 9, 1998. The deadline for submission of papers for the printed conference proceedings will be May 4, 1998. ---------------- Widad MUSTAFA ELHADI UFR IDIST Universite Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve D'Ascq France TEL 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 FAX 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 e-mail mustafa@univ-lille3.fr ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:45:03 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: another question Here's another structure question. I run into this fairly often. If a chapter starts on page 10 with a page that's just the title and an outline of what's in it, do you include that page in the page range? Example: book on finding child care page 10 Background checks outline of chapter p. 11 introductory paragraph with no heading First heading: Background checks, runs to p. 22 with several subheadings meanwhile. Do you index background checks, 10-22 or background checks, 11-22 I hope I've described this in some kind of useful way. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:55:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions -Reply -Reply We are all in-house indexers here. There are 11 law editors on staff here at Michie (we do most of the actual indexing), very ably assisted by a support staff of 18 copy editors. I suppose I should explain that we are a legal publishing firm and publish state codes for 35 states plus (for the first time this year) the USCS, as well as assorted legal textbooks, reference books, jurisprudences, etc. Most of the feedback comes from the editors or, in the case of author publications, the authors themselves. In the case of the state code indexes, we get feedback from the state code editors, the code commission in the various states and the customers themselves-- we have an 800 number published in every index, and take customer calls directly. Scary thought, huh? :-) We only recently discovered ASI, and are all delighted to learn that there are others out there who do what we do! (The only other professional indexers that any of us really knew of before were the ones working for our competitor law publishing companies!) I've really enjoyed lurking and participating in these on-line discussions-- it's very educational to see how others handle the same kind of problems that we run into! -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:08:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions I'm going to wonder out loud about something (and maybe start a thread....) Some fifteen years agou, back when I was paying attention to applied linguistics, people were testing noun strings (things like "Minnesota AFDC county payment caseload fiscal year) and finding that most readers had trouble with them. The reason for the difficulty was that the relationship words--the articles, prepositions, and conjunctions--were missing. This has always made me suspect that, when we indexers delete these words for style reasons, we might be losing reader comprehension without realizing it. Indexers, after all, know all the reading-comprehension tricks for understanding an index, but maybe the rest of the world does not. It has always seemed to me that we should be testing for readability rather than just assuming it. Is there anybody out there currently working in linguistics who knows of recent work in this area? (I've tried subscribing to the Linguist List; it generates too much mail.) Thanks in advance. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:51:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Weekend plans Sharon, I'll keep you posted. A lot will depend on when they deliver my stuff and when I can get skeleton office reassembled. See you tomorrow. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:55:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Ooops Clearly I erred in hitting the "reply" mode instead of watching Sharon's address line more carefully. Mea culpa! But since I'm in the midst of moving, I plead temporary insanity! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:10:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: prepositions, conjunctions, etc. 7 August 1997 Because the academic presses for which I work prefer it, I produce run-in (paragraph-style) indexes almost exclusively, and I always use conjunctions, prepositions, etc. in my sub-entries, as a way of making clear the grammatical connection between the sub-entry and its main entry. I've never had any objections to this style from the editors for whom I've worked. However, Maryanne Corbett's comment--about whether users of indexes understand the fine points we indexers debate --is an apt one. I recently did an index for a professor of English whose queries made it clear that, in spite of all the research she had done, she didn't understand how to read an index. For example, she didn't understand general cross-references, such as "Modernism. See also Specific modernist authors". And she didn't understand what relation sub-entries had to the main entry (She didn't understand that the comma in the subentry refers back to the main entry--as in: Wordsworth, William: influence of, on Virginia Woolf"). [I probably could have avoided this problem by writing "Wordsworth, William: as influence on Virginia Woolf"--so perhaps I *should* re-consider my use of conjunctions, prepostions, etc.!] In any case, it was eye-opening to me to have to teach her to how to read an index! And if this intelligent, highly-trained professor who guides the research of graduate students has difficulty reading indexes, what problems do more general readers have? I wonder how many of the guidelines we indexers adhere to (and argue about) are understood by people who use them! --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:34:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions In-Reply-To: <199708062242.PAA10765@mx5.u.washington.edu> Didn't Schopenhauer get there first: "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds?" I thought the Emerson quote was in response to him. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:40:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: prepositions, conjunctions, etc. -Reply Laura Gottleib touches on something important. Indexing is a communication between the Indexer and the end users of the index. If end users are not fluent in Indexer shorthand and conventions, then the effectiveness of this communication is diminished. To create effective, useful indexes, it is imperative for Indexers to stay close to how index users (not editors or other Indexers) speak, think, and use indexes. Indexers must put themselves in the position of somebody who has not been through the material, and that just does not happen if the Indexer is not sensitive to user needs and abilities. Mark >>> Laura M. Gottlieb 08/07/97 10:10am >>> 7 August 1997 Because the academic presses for which I work prefer it, I produce run-in (paragraph-style) indexes almost exclusively, and I always use conjunctions, prepositions, etc. in my sub-entries, as a way of making clear the grammatical connection between the sub-entry and its main entry. I've never had any objections to this style from the editors for whom I've worked. However, Maryanne Corbett's comment--about whether users of indexes understand the fine points we indexers debate --is an apt one. I recently did an index for a professor of English whose queries made it clear that, in spite of all the research she had done, she didn't understand how to read an index. For example, she didn't understand general cross-references, such as "Modernism. See also Specific modernist authors". And she didn't understand what relation sub-entries had to the main entry (She didn't understand that the comma in the subentry refers back to the main entry--as in: Wordsworth, William: influence of, on Virginia Woolf"). [I probably could have avoided this problem by writing "Wordsworth, William: as influence on Virginia Woolf"--so perhaps I *should* re-consider my use of conjunctions, prepostions, etc.!] In any case, it was eye-opening to me to have to teach her to how to read an index! And if this intelligent, highly-trained professor who guides the research of graduate students has difficulty reading indexes, what problems do more general readers have? I wonder how many of the guidelines we indexers adhere to (and argue about) are understood by people who use them! --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions In-Reply-To: <199708071410.AA00036@world.std.com> I've been following with interest the discussion on articles, prepositions, and conjunctions. As a result, I decided to look over the index I'm on the verge of completing. I deleted many but left in a few where I though the meaning might be misunderstood. A sort of compromise solution to what everyone's talking about. I did the same with my table columns/text columns problems. Printed out all the responses from members of this group, looked them over, and ended up with a solution that drew from each of them within my index's restraints (one level of subheads only). I guess there is no right or wrong answer. Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions At 08:34 AM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >Didn't Schopenhauer get there first: "consistency is the hobgoblin of >little minds?" I thought the Emerson quote was in response to him. A search of the online Bartlett's for "consistency" or "hobgoblin" doesn't find it. Bartlett's is at http://www.columbia.edu/cgi-bin/aglimpse Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Healy Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: <199708081410.KAA27941@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Regarding the subject line--our internal indexing style for legislative publications is to eliminate articles and reduce the use of prepositions and conjunctions. As an indexer I prefer using adjectival phrases rather than prepositional phrases. The danger in this is, as Maryann pointed out, constructing an entry in which the natural language flow becomes lost and the keywords are not identifiable. Statutes indexing often deals with such minute and involved shades of meaning, each requiring individual treatment, that it is easy to fall into this trap. On the other hand, liberal use of prepositions produces entries where the relationship between words is just as unclear. We rarely receive feedback from researchers. When we do, we find that their inability to locate a reference is generally do to main subject or subheading choices rather than the structure of individual entries. Sue Healy Florida Legislature Division of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: Web indexes Hello All, Dwight's inquiry yesterday about indexes to Web pages inspired me to confide to the list that I prepared my first Web page index this spring. It's always intimidating to invite a pack of indexers to look at one's own work, but I'll do it anyway. I welcome your constructive criticism, and of course, if you see any errors, let me know. The index is for two policies and procedure smanuals for the University of Texas at Austin. The original project begain in 1984 or so when the University decided to put its policies online, with an online index. It was an early example of a hypertext-linked index. I've been maintaining it all these years, and when the administration decided to put in on the Web, I volunteered to convert both the text files for the policies and the index to HTML. It was a good opportunity to revise the index in the process. I formatted the text using HTML Assistant Pro, revised the index using Cindex, and inserted most of the coding from Cindex, but of course, a lot of it had to be done by hand. The URL is http://www.utexas.edu/policies/hoppm/ Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions Patricia wrote: << I'm working on my second index (man, is this hard work!) and could use advice about function words in subentries. I've used them in most entries (authoritarianism: and economic policy; and NGOs; and social movements; etc.) but they look funny under entries that are countries (Argentina: inflation in; social movements in; etc.) because I get a long string of "in, in, in." Would in be bad form to leave them out of country entries and use them in others, as long as I do it consistently? Or would that be a consistency too obscure to impose on the index? >> You're going to get a few different opinions about this, I expect! Here's mine: I think that the most important thing is whether the meaning of the subentry, and its connection to the main entry, is clear. Therefore, I can certainly imagine using the "ands" you have there, but leaving off the "ins" under country names. Argentina: inflation is perfectly clear. On the other hand, there's nothing inherently wrong with the string of "ins," and in a scholarly index I think you can be a little more descriptive. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:49:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Re: prepositions, conjunctions, etc. In-Reply-To: >> On Thu, 07 Aug 1997 11:40:23 -0400, >> Mark Dempsey said: M> Indexing is a communication between the Indexer and the end users of the M> index. If end users are not fluent in Indexer shorthand and conventions, M> then the effectiveness of this communication is diminished. >> Laura M. Gottlieb said: L> For example, she didn't understand general cross-references, such as L> "Modernism. See also Specific modernist authors". I'm all in favor of making an index as useful as possible, but is it too much to expect basic reading comprehension skills on the part of the user? I realize that different people have different skill levels, but a lack of understanding on the part of the user does NOT necessarily mean there's a flaw in the index. We've been dumbing down books for about 30 years now, do we have to do the same to the indexes? -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:25:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Re: prepositions, conjunctions, etc. - Reply I would like to think we can expect that the index users have basic reading skills, but this letter reminded me of a conversation I had a few years ago. A new and enthusiastic editor on the staff of one of the encyclopedias we index came into my office to discuss "improvements" that could be made to the index. As the index in question is a large, ponderous animal which is revised each year but is not "gone over" from front to back with a total plan in mind, I thought perhaps he had some useful input, so I invited him to sit down and make his suggestions. He said--and I'm not making this up--that he had conducted an informal survey among patrons in a large public library (the city shall remain nameless here), and a majority seemed to find the index hard to use because they did not understand the concept of alphabetical order. He felt that it would be useful for us to print the alphabet at the bottom of each page so that it would be handy for their reference...We did not make this change, the editor no longer works here, and I have no idea whether or not the general populace of this city has ever learned the alphabet. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:30:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: prepositions, conjunctions, etc. Karl E. Vogel wrote: > I'm all in favor of making an index as useful as possible, but is it too > much to expect basic reading comprehension skills on the part of the > user? I realize that different people have different skill levels, but > a lack of understanding on the part of the user does NOT necessarily > mean there's a flaw in the index. This is the $64 million dollar question: Are the skills required to read an index really "basic"? To put the question another way, what sort of reader actually gains the reading skills needed to use an index? I strongly suspect we don't know, and I think the research published by Elizabeth Liddy a few years back supports my view. > > We've been dumbing down books for about 30 years now, do we have to do > the same to the indexes? Back when I taught composition, I spent a lot of time insisting to students that transitions and relationships between ideas had to be clear. I could do that because writing research has a lot to say about what _is_ clear. Asking a writer to do what is easier for readers is, IMHO, not dumbing down; it's insisting on good writing. Since an index is a piece of writing, too, it's not asking too much to ask indexers to do what helps the reader. The trouble is that we know much less about what index readers need. Has anybody seen any recent research? Librarians, reading specialists, psycholinguists, info management teachers? Anybody? -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:56:21 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: another question In-Reply-To: <199708071152.EAA06435@pacific.net> Rachel asks: >page 10 >Background checks >outline of chapter > >p. 11 >introductory paragraph with no heading >First heading: >Background checks, runs to p. 22 with several subheadings meanwhile. > >Do you index > >background checks, 10-22 > >or > >background checks, 11-22 Chapter outlines are not indexable; they are internal guides, not information as we define it for indexing. This also comes under the heading of, if the reader wants to know what else is in this chapter once she gets to your reference, she knows how to find the chapter opener. I understand your impulse, though, since the overview of the subject can be valuable. Are you able to break down the background checks entry into smaller valuable chunks? That is, add subheads that pinpoint specifics? An 11-page spread is fairly large for the kind of text you're describing. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:40:27 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: articles, preposition, conjunctions In-Reply-To: <199708071410.HAA12666@pacific.net> Maryann wrote: >This has always made me suspect that, when we indexers delete these >words for style reasons, we might be losing reader comprehension without >realizing it. Indexers, after all, know all the reading-comprehension >tricks for understanding an index, but maybe the rest of the world does >not. It has always seemed to me that we should be testing for >readability rather than just assuming it. > >Is there anybody out there currently working in linguistics who knows of >recent work in this area? I don't know of research but just want to say that this concern is the basis for my practice in this area. To me, it seems more complicated, in the humanities and in textbooks of all kinds, than just a straight-out definition of "ambiguity." I agree that in law (in which I was trained by Matthew Bender) and other technical fields you have knowledgeable users who expect conformity, year in and year out, in the indexes. They understand the rules. But in many other fields there is no such structure. We are providing it on a book-by-book basis. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:57:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Re: prepositions, conjunctions, etc. In-Reply-To: <33EA143F.7DAD@revisor.leg.state.mn.us> >> On Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:30:23 -0500, >> Maryann Corbett said: M> This is the $64 million dollar question: Are the skills required to read M> an index really "basic"? Yup. Understanding "See also" is as close to see-Spot-run as it gets. M> To put the question another way, what sort of reader actually gains the M> reading skills needed to use an index? Any 9th or 10th grader in my (public) high school who was asked to do a moderately difficult paper, especially if more than one or two reference books were needed. M> Asking a writer to do what is easier for readers is, IMHO, not dumbing M> down; it's insisting on good writing. Since an index is a piece of M> writing, too, it's not asking too much to ask indexers to do what helps M> the reader. True, and I appreciate the efforts of indexers along these lines, but an index is not a piece of prose and shouldn't be expected to follow the same rules. It's a tightly-condensed navigational aid, and the main reason that it can be condensed in the first place is that certain conventions exist for index construction and use. Whether those conventions are being adequately taught is a separate question. M> The trouble is that we know much less about what index readers need. Also true. I've lost count of the number of really interesting papers I've found on how people actually go about the process of search and retrieval; it's non-trivial, just like creating a good index. However, "generally accessible" doesn't (and shouldn't) mean "intended for the lowest common denominator". -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:57:34 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: THANKS! and summary Many thanks and chocolate truffles to Sandra Henderson,Yvette Dowling, Cynthia Bertelsen, Ritch Pope, and Lindsay Grower for their valuable advice. Summary -Do include the name of the state with cities which might be confused with either a city in another part of the country or world, or with something/someone else. -According to AACR2 (Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules): "Rule 22.5D1 For Spanish names. If the prefix consists of an article only, enter under it. Las Heras, Manuel Antonio Enter all other names under the part following the prefix. Figueroa, Francisco de Casa, Bartolome de las Rio, Antonio del Padilla, Juan de (without Fray) -Vicente, Vincente are both used. -In Spanish a person from the Dominican Republic is known as a Dominicana (female) or a Dominicano (male). En masse (both genders): Dominicanos. (Don't know about in English) -You confirmed my elementary school geography memories that the two rivers are not the same. Only then did I finally understand what the au was trying to do when he quoted a journal. The diarist incorrectly said "...and we camped at the Rio Grande (Colorado River) for two nights ..." -- My au was inserting the correct river into the inaccurate account. THAT I can index and I won't need cross-references implying that the two rivers are one. -Former governor Bryan's first name is Richard -Jan Laverty Jones goes by Jan Jones now, but one would otherwise index by the double last name. ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:49:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Helping readers to use the index Pauline Sholtys wrote about an editor who But seriously, folks, wouldn't you think this a sensible idea for helping= *children* to learn to use an index? A research project is currently goin= g on in the UK on indexing books for children, and if I remember rightly, this was one of many suggestions that came up. Educated adults take a lot= of things for granted that children may not necessarily grasp. There will= be a paper on this subject at the Society of Indexers' conference in Dublin, 5-7 September 1997. Christine *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:10:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Helping readers to use the index At 05:49 PM 8/7/97 -0400, Christine wrote: >Educated adults take a lot >of things for granted that children may not necessarily grasp. 'Fess up now. Who else out there used to think "lmno" was one letter? -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:14:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: No Subject In a message dated 8/4/97 9:16:09 AM, you wrote: >I totally agree with Paul. I also agree with his intensity in disliking this >crap, because the results in society are devastating. Defining terms >consistently is obviously critical for rational thought and reasoning. If one >believes otherwise, the logical process breaks down and "conclusions" are >always suspect. > >Way to go! > >David The main problem that many people have with postmodernism, beyond the tendancy to use language that is practically impossible to understand, is that their primary premise is that Logic and Rationality (Note the caps) are illusions, stories we tell ourselves to make the universe a more comfortable, controllable place. Interestingly enough, the postmodernists seem to be converging with the physicists about the final unknowability of the universe. As for the weird language they use, that can be blamed in part on French philosophers from Lacan to Derrida and very bad translations of their work. Sorry to any translators on the list-I can't imagine trying to translate someone like Derrida. If you are interested in reading work from a parallel movement (that critiques concepts of Logic and Rationality) in American Analytic Philosophy, try reading Richard Rorty. He expresses many of the same ideas but his writing is much more readable. Try his Mirror of the Mind (or the Mirror of the Universe or something, I can't quite remember off the top of my head). For all of postmodernist's fancy rhetoric, all that they are trying to say (and explore) is that many of our long cherished beliefs in meaning, certainty, essentialism, foundationalism, etc. are very, very shaky. Sorry for the lecture. The teacher in me got loose there for a minute. Beth Tudor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:05:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: en dashes in the index In-Reply-To: <199708072219.AA25297@world.std.com> Here's a question that's never occurred to me before. Maybe the answer is obvious - bear with me. I've always used hyphens to indicate page ranges. Should I be using en dashes which are traditionally used for numerical ranges like that? Is there anyone out there who goes to the trouble to use en dashes? It's certainly an easy thing to do. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: en dashes in the index At 10:05 PM 8/7/97 -0400, you wrote: >Here's a question that's never occurred to me before. Maybe the >answer is obvious - bear with me. I've always used hyphens to indicate >page ranges. Should I be using en dashes which are traditionally used for >numerical ranges like that? Is there anyone out there who goes to the >trouble to use en dashes? It's certainly an easy thing to do. Depends on the client. Some want them, some settle for hyphens. I have had some problems creating en-dashes on an IBM platform then exporting to a Mac paltform via RTF file. For clients who want the en-dashes, I usually use some unique character string such as then have the client substitute an en-dash for that string. Dick Evans