From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 26-NOV-1997 05:56:16.06 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711A" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:13:00 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 02:35:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Triple index question In Macrex, you can create several indexes simultaneously = (no need to keep dashing to and fro between them) by first making one index, but preceding each entry with a = distinguishing character, such as a for authors and = s for subjects, followed by a comma. When you've finished, = you can separate the indexes by means of a fiendishly = clever utility. I've now done this several times, the = first few times with my heart in my mouth, but it = worked perfectly each time. I don't know if Cindex = can do this. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 02:35:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: The Indexer It has just struck me that my recent message might be misconstrued. I wrote: <>I'd like to recommend the journal The Indexer, which goes >free to ASI members (and of course SI, AusSI and = >IASC/SCAD members), and includes the Indexes Reviewed >section, which I currently edit. = I hope no one was misled by my ambiguous grammar into thinking that I was claiming to be the editor of The Indexer. In fact I edit only the Indexes Reviewed section. The editor of the journal is of course Janet Shuter. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:29:56 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: Librarian's pot o' gold - Web site to the max! Many thanks to Bob Richardson. This site has led me on to a whole host of medical sites which should be useful to me in the future. I particularly liked Rxlist on http://www.rxlist.com/ which is a drugs database run by Mosby which you can search using fuzzy logic if you are not sure on spellings. It also includes cross-references from British drug names to the equivalent American ones - very helpful - paracetamol led me on to acetaminophen, plus all its (American) brand names. Liza Weinkove ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:34:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Triple index - thanks and summary Many thanks (and hugs, believe me, HUGS) to the following folks for their Triple Index responses: Carolyn Weaver, Jill Barrett, Carol Roberts, Michael Schwilk, Leslie Frank, David Ream, Anne Taylor, Christine Shuttleworth, and Dawn the IndexLady. Rather than summarize information everyone has already seen, I will mention that an off-list post only added that it was customary to charge extra for several indexes in one book because the indexes add value to certain kinds of books and may even be used as a selling point in that book's marketing process. I appreciate your responses and experience very much. Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:53:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: Rates Hello, all! I'm still doing prep things as I wait for my first re-entry index. What I need to know is 1. What do people charge per entry and does this mean per entry in the final index or in the "in progress" index? Thanks for all your help along the way. Stephanie SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 08:49:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: temporary page numbers In-Reply-To: <8298690.345a51f9@aol.com> Frank, Do the chapters separately!!!! The reason is that sometimes the publisher will shift some pages, and sometimes a few pages don't fit into the whole scheme. For example, I did one book (Hi B ;-) in which all but two chapters had pages shift up 4 pages. In two chapters, there were only a couple of pages shifted and all the rest in each of those chaps stayed the same. I had to almost redo those 2 chapters (and charged and got double for those pages), and if I'd done the whole book as one entity, I would have had to spend many many hours fixing the pages. As I had done it chapt by chapt, it was not a disaster, merely a pain in the tushie. Rachel >Hello all, >I'm about to do a good sized book with temporary page numbers. The pages will >be number according to chapter, ie., 1.1-1.15, 2.1-2.18, etc. I'm using >Cindex, so I can change page numbers automatically. My question is, in your >esteemed opinions, would it be easier to do this change if I indexed each >chapter separately? Or should I just go ahead and create the whole index and >change the pages during the final edit? This is the first time that I've had a >book this large with all substitute page numbers, so I'm not sure which way to >go. >Thanks, >Leslie >Frank (having hot dogs this afternoon) Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Foreign articles Thanks to everyone who responded to my query on articles in titles. I am truly embarrassed to report that upon a closer scrutiny of my indexing specifications for this book I discovered that articles retain position. That makes my task much simpler, but doesn't diminish my gratitude to the fonts of wisdom on this list. With red face, Craig Brown ===================================== The Last Word Indexing (314)352-9094 lastword@i1.net ===================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:18:55 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Indexing error messages At 01:46 PM 10/31/97 -0500, Dick wrote: >I occasionally come across isolated references to a particular error >message in computer texts. If the message has no ID number and is too long >to index in its entirety, is it OK to abbreviate it? Are there rules for >such abbreviations. > >Example: > > The workbook you opened contains automatic links to information in > another workbook. Do you want to update this workbook with > changes made to the other workbook? > >I would index as: > >"workbook...contains automatic links..." message > >(where the quotes indicate italics) > >Would that suffice? Dick: I abbreviate long error messages much as you do. To communicate a clearer sense of the message in question I think I'd add a phrase to your proposed heading: "workbook...contains automatic links....want to update...?" message or simply "workbook...want to update...?" message might be enough. Michael ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:11:06 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: The Indexer Christine Shuttleworth wrote: >I'd like to recommend the journal The Indexer, which goes >>free to ASI members (and of course SI, AusSI and >IASC/SCAD members) Actually the AusSI constitution includes the clause: "Subscriptions to The Indexer shall be voluntary and not part of the membership subscriptions." At present, slightly less than half of our 216 members choose to subscribe to The Indexer. AusSI members get a substantial discount when they subscribe. Because The Indexer is AusSI's professional journal, as well the organ of the British, American and Canadian societies, the AusSI national committee strongly recommends that Australian and New Zealand members do choose to subscribe. And it's such a good read, too. **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:30:47 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judy King Subject: windows indexing Does anyone know the status of the Windows version of Cindex, or whether Macrex is planning one? I have Macrex. Since I use it only occasionally (I do more editing than indexing), I find it extremely difficult to maneuver around in, change layouts in, etc. DOS is just not as easy to work in now that I have used Windows for years. I find the features of Macrex very helpful (the ones I can figure out), but really hope to see an advanced Windows program sometime soon. Judy King--offering help for your writing project that goes "way beyond spell-check" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:51:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Spencer Subject: Re: windows indexing Hi! I talked with Cindex a few weeks ago (09-29-97) about their new version. Although they didn't have the release date set yet, the price will probably be a substantial indexing murder. MY upgrade price is around $260, and even though I just shelled out $500 less than a year ago! She said the final whole product price hadn't been decided yet. They DO have real good support. But I get that without the upgrade price! Just my two cents worth, which may only be worth one cent. Dawn indexlady ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:13:57 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re Indexing Fiction In response to Barb Mullinix query on fiction indexing proposals, I would expect that one would want to look for: (1) a successful work, (2) that is sufficiently long and complex to need an index. For me that suggests that a series rather than a single volume is a better possibility, since there is obviously a market (otherwise why has a series been published?) and there is enough text already published that readers could need help in following the story. If I was doing a proposal I wouldn't just suggest an index but also, a glossary, maps, further background references, whatever else would enhance the experience of the reader of the fictional work. This goes beyond indexing in the narrow sense and goes into authoring. So one is writing a book proposal rather than, in the narrow sense, an indexing proposal but the core of the work would be the index. I would think that the publisher of the series, rather than the author is who one needs to approach. For one thing, it will be much easier to contact his publisher than a really successful author. For another, it will be the publisher's decision with regard to if the project is economically viable and the publisher obviously can easily contact the author for his (or her) input. Finally, like anything else, it helps to have a background in the subject. If you have already a background (indexing or otherwise) in a given area, that is where I would be looking for the fiction. The more you can show some relevant expertise, the more likely one is likely to wind up with a contract. ******************************************************** Lawrence H. Feldman Post Office Box 2493 Wheaton Maryland 20915-2493 301-933-2616 Lawrenc846@aol.com Indexer - Researcher - Writer ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:31:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Wolfe Subject: Unsubscribe Index-L Please unsubscribe me ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:54:15 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Version 1.01 of Windexer released A 15 day trial version 1.01 of Windexer, the WinHelp interactive online indexing tool from Sageline Publishing is now available for download at http://www.sageline.com/Windexer/Windexer.html -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:16:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SSawula Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Indexing software Hi all; I'm trying to decide on an indexing software....one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I was wondering if anyone out there knows anything about a program called wINDEX from Watch City Software. If anyone is using this program please let me know how you like it. I first heard about it when I purchased the Susan Holbert Indexing course. Thank you in advance for any assistance. Steve Sawula email addresses: imukie2@juno.com or ssawula@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 10:25:08 +1100 Reply-To: Jonathan Jermey Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Retrieving Access front-end (and other files) via Netscape - use Shift-click (?) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BBC971.4A1FB520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some people have written to me about problems downloading my Access = front-end to Macrex from the Web through Netscape. Checking back over = some old notes, I see that it's apparently necessary to hold down the = Shift key while clicking on the download link (the Internet Explorer = doesn't have this problem). If you try this and still have difficulties, = let me know. Jonathan. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BBC971.4A1FB520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some people have written to me about = problems=20 downloading my Access front-end to Macrex from the Web through Netscape. = Checking back over some old notes, I see that it's apparently necessary = to hold=20 down the Shift key while clicking on the download link (the Internet = Explorer=20 doesn't have this problem). If you try this and still have difficulties, = let me=20 know.
 
Jonathan.
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BBC971.4A1FB520-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: sole proprietorship vs incorporation Kevin Mulrooney wrote: >> In reference to Pilar's question a while back about the advantages of incorporating, I have a dumb question. Many people who have tried to talk me into incorporating mention the "reduced" self-employment tax by paying on a W-2 as she mentioned vs paying the full self-employment tax.l Kevin, Peter Kent has a nice book, that while aimed at technical writers, holds a wealth of wisdom for any contract professional in the writing fields. I do include indexers as members of the writing fraternity. The name of the book is Making Money in Technical Writing and he has a full section on the pluses and minuses of incorporation, which is very helpful. You can find out more information about it from his website. http://w3.mgr.com/mgr/arco/techwr/ -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:36:00 +0000 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Re: windows indexing In-Reply-To: <199711020217.CAA08435@mail-relay.compulink.co.uk> Hallo Index-Lers! We are developing a Windows version of MACREX, but it isn't ready and we can't give a date yet. The existing DOS program runs well under Windows 3.1 and 95. It can be used in a window and cutting and pasting work fine (see PS below). We're well aware that the appearance of the DOS version is unfamiliar to people used to Windows (which is why we're developing the Windows version) but I think most people would agree is that what really matters in an indexing program is its functionality, features and speed. Using these criteria we believe that MACREX is still a serious competitor, Windows or no Windows. We now have a web site on http://www.macrex.cix.co.uk/ and there's a demo of the DOS version there that you can download. There are also quite a few tips on the web site too, which existing MACREXers may well find helpful. Drusilla Calvert MACREX INDEXING SERVICES phone/fax +44(0)191 414 2595 email: hcalvert@macrex.cix.uk http://www.macrex.cix.co.uk/ PS These are the keystrokes for cutting and pasting in Windows 3.1/95: To put text ^from^ a DOS application onto the clipboard use , block the text you want and press To put text ^into^ a DOS application from the clipboard use

. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: great quote for indexing? Jan C. Wright wrote: > I was just reading the letters column in Wired Jan, Congratulations for being ABLE to read Wired. I had to give up some time ago as it was very hard for me to read reasonably in their colorful and busy (I'm being nice) format. -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. Shaw" Subject: Re: Indexing fiction Barb, When I heard about the companion volume, I contacted the author with this question: "Have you thought about an index?" I'd indexed part of it for fun--my community was blocked off for five days after Hurricane Fran--by hand, the way I learned to index (from my own treasured copy of Knight, which, like Christine's, does not leave these four walls). My expectations were those of a reader curious about the plans for the companion volume. To my surprise, the author liked the idea and asked for a proposal. I think if you're indexing the work of a living author, and you plan to show the index at all, it's common courtesy to contact him or her. To do a really good job, you need to collaborate; you need feedback and you need permission. Selling it without the support of the author, if that is your plan, would be a difficult task. Depending on the work, you might even be risking a law suit if you try to sell it independently. In the case of my project, the author has published only four books in the six-book series. I neither want to influence nor spoil the plot, which advances with each book. Indexing fiction requires a somewhat delicate touch. Your primary motivation needs to be the fun you'll have working with material that you like and know well--as a reader. Read the article that I referenced in my previous post about publishers' and readers' perceptions of the need for an index of fiction. Publishers do not want to pay for an index of a work of fiction, except in very few cases--and they will be the first to say that few readers see a need for them. (My project happens to be in one of the indexable categories). If you want to sell your index, offer it to the author. You may recall the comment made by A. S. Byatt, which someone posted here a couple of days ago. Byatt found Hazel Bell's index of her work to be a valuable author's aid. I would love to see the indexing of fiction develop as a market, but publishers' attitudes have to change first. So, how do we change those? Cheers, Deborah Shaw shawd@mindspring.com P.S. I'm never called Debbie. ================= Barbara Mullinix said: > ...Instead of approaching the books' author, I would think that the author of an indexer could sell their work directly to the publisher, especially if the index will be published as a separate volume. From a business point of view, I would think this approach would be more profitable. > How does this really work in practice, and is it standard protocol to contact the author as Debbie has? Everything about this subject seems interesting to me; I would love to hear comments on her questions and mine. < ================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:26:09 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: Indexing software In-Reply-To: <971103061741.6.11525@mtigwc06> I reviewed this 7-8 years ago in connection with a course I was teaching on Indexing for the University of Chicago Extension department. As I remember, it was a nice little program for someone who doesn't do regular, professional indexing at a level that would justify one of the big programs like Cindex or Macrex. The price was certainly right for what you got. Charles Anderson Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:33:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: windows indexing In-Reply-To: <971102135157.9.11525@mtigwc06> Having done some Windows 95 programming (at least in Visual Basic) for a simple shareware program, I have a real appreciation the amount of work involved in translating a complex program such as Cindex to the Windows environment. As a professional indexer of 27+ years, I have appreciated the versatility of Cindex ever since it first came out (before that using a program called MIS from Compugramma, which wasn't too bad and before that a database program called The Answer - a very cumbersome way to index. And there then were the 3X5 cards - thousands of them. If you are in this business to the point of filing a Schedule C, that is, making at least part-time money, I believe that the quoted upgrade price of $260 fo what must be really a completely new program, is perfectly reasonable and I will be quite happy to pay this. Also, depending on your tax bracket, the true cost should be less after business deductions. Finally, as you mention, the support is outstanding. Charles Anderson At 01:51 PM 11/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hi! > >I talked with Cindex a few weeks ago (09-29-97) about their new version. >Although they didn't have the release date set yet, the price will probably >be a substantial indexing murder. > >MY upgrade price is around $260, and even though I just shelled out $500 less >than a year ago! She said the final whole product price hadn't been decided >yet. > >They DO have real good support. But I get that without the upgrade price! > >Just my two cents worth, which may only be worth one cent. > >Dawn >indexlady > Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:04:31 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: windows indexing I think that an upgrade price of $260 is a great deal. We have to remember that Indexing Research is not Microsoft, and can't really afford to sell it's specialized software to its small market at $100 a pop. And Charles Anderson is correct, too. The development cost for this major programming change must have been significant. I'm looking forward to the new version with bated breath, personally. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:15:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Captions Hi, all. Here I am again with my San Antonio book. Lots of pictures and maps in this one. Question. How do I do locators for terms in the text of captions of a photo, where the subject (usually a person) isn't actually in the photo/illustration? Example. Illustration of Gen. Santa Anna, but in the long caption, Sam Houston is mentioned, and the illustration is the only thing on the page; no other text is included. Or, what if the caption has extra info in it, but there's regular text on the page, and the term I want to use is only in the caption? Or, if the illustration is on one page, and the caption is on the facing page, then what? Do I italicize the locator, as I would for the illustration itself, or should I use "cap." after the locator, or should I simply put the page number in plain text, and assume the user will look at the caption, too? My indexing references don't deal with this issue, I'm afraid. Perhaps I need to upgrade my reference library. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:30:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: in-house contacts I have found editors most helpful in telling me who else to contact in a publishing house. I prefer to make the contact myself, unless the editor suggests otherwise, so I can "pitch" myself and begin a professional relationship with the editor. This works well if you have confidence in your telephone skills. If not, get the name and send your package. I usually send a short bio, list of books indexed, and other relevant notables, not a chronological resume. Regards, Susan Susan Holbert/Indexing Services -- 781-893-0514 Training: "Basic Skills" video & "User Manuals & Online Help" workshop http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:11:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Captions At 11:15 AM 11/3/97 -0600, Joanne wrote: >. . . >Question. How do I do locators for terms in the text of captions of a >photo, where the subject (usually a person) isn't actually in the >photo/illustration? > >Example. Illustration of Gen. Santa Anna, but in the long caption, Sam >Houston is mentioned, and the illustration is the only thing on the >page; no other text is included. > >Or, what if the caption has extra info in it, but there's regular text >on the page, and the term I want to use is only in the caption? > >Or, if the illustration is on one page, and the caption is on the facing >page, then what? > >Do I italicize the locator, as I would for the illustration itself, or >should I use "cap." after the locator, or should I simply put the page >number in plain text, and assume the user will look at the caption, too? > >My indexing references don't deal with this issue, I'm afraid. Perhaps >I need to upgrade my reference library. Joanne: I haven't seen anything in reference works on indexing topics in captions either, but there have been a few suggestions offered on Index-l within the past couple of years. The pros and cons of using italicized or plain text locators have been discussed, and Drusilla Calvert suggested using "(c)" as an annotation. I responded to Drusilla's post with gratitude for her having made the point that indexing topics in captions in a distinctive way can be very helpful to readers, and I suggested that we do this even more simply with the annotation "c" (analogous to "n" for notes). Fred Leise liked this idea so much he suggested that we all adopt it and thereby make it a new standard -- and that's the last word on this topic I remember reading. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:18:42 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Captions In-Reply-To: <199711040111.RAA06780@pacific.net> Michael wrote: >The pros and cons of using italicized or plain text locators have been >discussed, and Drusilla Calvert suggested using "(c)" as an annotation. I >responded to Drusilla's post with gratitude for her having made the point >that indexing topics in captions in a distinctive way can be very helpful to >readers, and I suggested that we do this even more simply with the >annotation "c" (analogous to "n" for notes). Fred Leise liked this idea so >much he suggested that we all adopt it and thereby make it a new standard -- >and that's the last word on this topic I remember reading. I liked that idea, and had worked with multiply annotated locator schemes in children's textbooks. When I did that theatre (author's spelling) book recently the captions had real information in them that was not in the text and covered people and things not actually in the photographs, so I suggested to my production editor that we use "c" to indicate captions. The text editor elected to just have me use plain text with the expectation that readers will look in the captions. So of course that's what I did (the photos were noted in italic). But if I had control of it, I would tend toward an annotation, because I don't think readers know to look in the captions without a hint. I remember once, as a child, finding something that had been indexed in plain text but was in a caption, I had looked and looked, and felt so miffed to discover it there. I realize one bad experience as a child does not good policy make, yet it still seems, to me, a delightful idea to annotate. Best, Victoria P.S. I've just been up all night and all today finishing a very difficult project--three thousand years of Western philosophy. Pardon my giddiness. vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Virginia Dais Subject: Re: Indexing software Regarding wINDEX software! I use wINDEX and LOVE IT! It's pretty cheap but works great. I just got it this past summer and have completed four books with it (scientific). It worked great and the help manual was a great teacher! Just walk through it step by step and you'll be off and running. I was surprised at how quickly I was able to pick it up. Transporting files into Word (Microsoft) 7.0 for editing the final index is easy easy easy. Very nice and simple. Virginia Dais, Ph.D. BVLDais@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:35:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Imbedded indexing Hi Sudsy, > Can a kind soul who has experience with imbedded indexing > either send or direct me to a description of same? Under what > circumstances is this kind of indexing used? Is special software > needed? I've been creating traditional indexes for CD-Rom > science texts and am wondering if there's an established > paperless method I could be using instead. (My editor is > equally clueless.) Embedded indexing means that the index entries are embedded electronically in the files of the document. Instead of having a separate index file that is created with dedicated indexing software, an embedded index is created in the same software as the rest of the document (for example, Microsoft Word or FrameMaker). The special software that is needed is the software that the text files are in (like Microsoft Word or FrameMaker). Embedded indexing is usually desirable for computer-related manuals or other manuals which are likely to be updated often or go online. One advantage is that when the manual is updated, the index can be re-generated quickly and the page references will be accurate. Another advantage is that if the document goes online, the index reference will serve as a link; the user just clicks on the index entry and the relevant text is displayed. The disadvantage is that it's kind of a pain for the indexer to create. It takes more time and effort and checking than creating an index with dedicated indexing software, and the user interface is not very user friendly. (For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that the files are in Microsoft Word.) An index entry that looks like this: software, installing, x would be created by typing and index entry in the body of the Microsoft Word text that looks like this: {xe "software, installing"} And index entries that looks like this: lakes Erie, x Huron, x Michigan, x Ontario, x Superior, x would be created by typing index entries in the appropriate places in the body of the Microsoft Word text that look like this: {xe "lakes:Superior"}{xe "lakes:Erie"}{xe "lakes:Ontario"}{xe "lakes:Michigan"}{xe "lakes:Huron"} The index entries are actually invisible text in the file, so the index entries aren't visible on the screen unless you choose to display the paragraph markers and invisible text. Before generating the index, you have to create a separate index file with field codes. The field codes tell the software to search each file (chapter1.doc, chapter2.doc, chapter3.doc...) before it generates the index. Since the generated index is actually a bunch of field codes, the index can be re-generated by pressing 1 key to update the index. The process is similar, but different, for FrameMaker or other desktop publishing packages. Embedded indexes are usually preferred by corporate clients more than traditional publishers. I'm not sure that I've explained this fully, but hopefully it will help. Let me know if you have further questions. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY ASI chapter Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:34:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stefanie Bates Eye Subject: unsubscribing I am having trouble unsubscribing to this list. I have typed in the message "signoff Index-L Stefanie Bates Eye" per the instructions I have. I keep getting an error message. Could someone please email me privately with directions? Thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:25:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Captions Michael Brackney writes: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Alice G. Klingener" Subject: Thanks to Index-L Hello Index-L, Having just shipped by first PAID index, I want to express heartfelt thanks to all for the knowledge and wisdom shared on this list. From the technicalities of index entries to marketing and ergonomics, it is an unmatched resource for professional training. My favorites, however, are those nitty-gritty threads on constructing entries from challenging material. I especially like the suggestion recently for adding "c" to the locator for a caption with content not in the illustration. Thanks, Sally Klingener Acorn Indexing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alice G. Klingener USENET, listserv:-> skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu Sally Klingener direct email:-> sallyk@bio.umass.edu Biology Department tele: (413) 545-0449 University of Massachusetts fax: (413) 545-3243 Amherst, MA 01003-5810 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:44:03 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: Endnotes I have a book to index that has notes gathered together at the end of the book. They are referred to in the text by superscripted numbers, so that the reader has to look at the back of the book to find the relevant text. These notes often contain material that is not mentioned elsewhere in the book, and I just want to ask Index-Lers how they would index them. Christine Shuttleworth mentioned in passing in her recent posting on captions that she indexed them to the page the original reference (ie the superscripted number) occurred in the form 13n for a note referred to on page 13, with an explanation at the beginning of the index. Is this method a generally accepted one? My original intention was just to index anything important on the page it actually occurred, and without the n suffix. I get the impression that this has been a topic of discussion before, but if so it was before I joined the group, so I would be grateful if anyone could give me any further input. Reply offline if you prefer. Liza Weinkove e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:03:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Endnotes In-Reply-To: <01bce938$8eb37fe0$44ba48c2@us.zen.co.uk> Please reply to the list as I was just about to ask the same question. I would add that in the book I'm working on there are only 2 notes that I find to be indexable anyway, and I was planning to do it almost as Liza suggested, such as topic, 256n.13 where 13 is the actual number of the note. The only problem with that is that for each chapter the notes begin at 1 again. This could be confusing except that I'm only indexing the 2 items. Thanks, RR >I have a book to index that has notes gathered together at the end of the >book. They are referred to in the text by superscripted numbers, so that the >reader has to look at the back of the book to find the relevant text. These >notes often contain material that is not mentioned elsewhere in the book, >and I just want to ask Index-Lers how they would index them. > >Christine Shuttleworth mentioned in passing in her recent posting on >captions that she indexed them to the page the original reference (ie the >superscripted number) occurred in the form 13n for a note referred to on >page 13, with an explanation at the beginning of the index. Is this method a >generally accepted one? >My original intention was just to index anything important on the page it >actually occurred, and without the n suffix. > >I get the impression that this has been a topic of discussion before, but if >so it was before I joined the group, so I would be grateful if anyone could >give me any further input. Reply offline if you prefer. > >Liza Weinkove >e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:24:37 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Mass Society of Indexers Workshop (Nov 8?) Can someone confirm to me the date and location of the Massachusetts Society of Indexers workshop "Facing the Text", by Do Mi Stauber? I've misplaced my information. Joel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:12:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Endnotes Liza Weinkove wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Endnotes At 03:44 PM 11/4/97 -0000, Liza Weinkove wrote: >Christine Shuttleworth mentioned in passing in her recent posting on >captions that she indexed them to the page the original reference (ie the >superscripted number) occurred in the form 13n for a note referred to on >page 13, with an explanation at the beginning of the index. Is this method a >generally accepted one? I index the material in notes like this by the actual page on which the information occurs. If note 13 begins on page 258 but carries over to page 259 and information about potassium, for example, is in the extension of note 13 on page 259, the reference will look like this: 259 n. 13 So far this method has been the one all of my clients prefer. I would hate to be a reader and go to page 258 and look at note 13 and not find my information, wouldn't you? I might not even look on page 259, thinking "What a lousy index!" and shove the book back on the shelf. (There are many different indexing styles preferred for notes: 259n13, 259n.13, 259n. 13, 259 n. 13--I always ask the editor which one the press prefers. If space for the index is an issue, 259n13 seems to be favored.) >My original intention was just to index anything important on the page it >actually occurred, and without the n suffix. I always use the n. or nn. (this last if there is more than one instance of the information on the same page). If there are loads of notes in small type on a page, having the n. or nn. makes it easier for the reader to find desired information more quickly. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:20:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Mass Society of Indexers Workshop (Nov 8?) In-Reply-To: <345F8485.2C0E@worldnet.att.net> the info is on the Web site: http://www.marisol.com/maasi/maasi.htm Sat. 9-4 at Doubletree Hotel, Waltham I just happened to be talking to Marilyn when your post came through. >Can someone confirm to me the date and location of the Massachusetts >Society of Indexers workshop "Facing the Text", by Do Mi Stauber? I've >misplaced my information. > >Joel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://www/tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Endnotes At least in social science/humanities books, the standard for endnotes is to index substantive material only (that means not mere citations; index an author only if their views are discussed in the endnote). Publishers have their own styles for locators, and you should ask yours what they want, but it's very rare not to specify the note number when the whole page is full of notes. My favorite style (which you could suggest if they have no preference) is 147(n3). The parentheses help to distinguish the note number from the next locator, and are even more important if they want a space before the note number. A sequence like 147 n3, 148 n5, 150 n 60 can be hard to read. Another tip: Pull out the endnote pages and read/make entries through them in parallel to the text. Circle in the text the numbers of notes with substantive material; x out the ones that aren't substantive. This makes it easier to go back on subsequent passes through the text. Hope this helps! Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:06:59 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: If I owe you email.... Hi everyone, I'm sorry to bother the list with this off-topic matter, but it's the only way I can reach a lot of you at one time. Please bear with me if I owe you email (or a handwritten thank you note), which I owe a lot of you. It's finally dawned on me that typing and writing subtly but seriously aggravates my arm and chest incisions ("subtly" because you don't feel it happening until they suddenly feel like molten lava). So, I've been having to greatly limit my keyboarding to a rare message. If you ever have to have coronary bypass surgery, keep them away from your arms (especially your dominant arm/hand) if you want to do anything more useful than watch the soaps for weeks and weeks. Tell them to look elsewhere for donor arteries (like maybe at cadavers who don't use computers for anything). Or ask them why they apparently aren't using the mammary and thoracic arteries anymore as grafts these days but are slashing up the arms instead (without asking which "hand" you are). Wear iron gauntlets to the operating room if necessary, but KEEP THEM AWAY FROM YOUR ARMS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Job opportunity Here's another listing from the Library Jobs listserve: From: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" "Library and Information Science jobs mail-19 C. Berger And Company, the Midwest's leading library and information services firm, is seeking catalogers and/or indexers for nine one-year contract full-time positions with a major manufacturer in the far northern suburbs of Chicago. Duties include bar coding, cataloging and indexing internal documents and inputting records into local system. MLS required. Desired: experience cataloging/indexing technical documents and establishing standardized vocabulary for accessing these documents; 1-2 years experience in a special library or archive; BA/BS in science would be helpful. Position is available in February 1998. Salary is competitive and based on qualifications and experience. Apply by December 31, 1997 to Andrea Halverson, P.O. Box 274, Wheaton, IL, 60189. Phone: 630/653-1115 or 800/382-4CBC. Fax: 630/653-1691. C. Berger And Company 327 East Gundersen Drive Carol Stream, IL 60188 Phone: 630/653-1115 or 800/382-4CBC Fax: 630/653-1691 E-Mail: c-berg@dupagels.lib.il.us Web-site: www.cberger.com ****************************************************************** * LIBJOBS is a free service provided by the International * * Federation of Library Associations. For individual * * membership information, contact: ifla.hq@ifla.nl * * * * URL: www.ifla.org * ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:40:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: If I owe you email.... Dear Lynn, DON'T ANSWER THIS!! I just wanted to say I'm so glad you're out of the hospital and okay--I've been thinking about you all this time, as have all the rest of us out here in Index-L-Land! Don't worry about anyone's expectations, just take care of yourself and rest as long as you need to. Love, Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: windows indexing/Cindex upgrade I have to agree that $260 is not a bad price. In fact, when you consider that it's not really an upgrade, after all but that it's a whole new program, $260 sounds pretty good. An upgrade would be an upgrade on our DOS version. Now people will have the option of DOS, Windows, or Mac versions of Cindex. The only reason I may not purchase it has nothing to do with the price. I have a real arm problem with overuse of the mouse. It was a great relief to my right arm to go to Cindex from the Mac software I was using. So, I will really have to decide if I want to go that route again. But that's my problem. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:49:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Chat Log The AOL Chat log 11-3-97 is available for those that want it. E-mail me if you do. Susan Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:14:05 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Captions Thanks to the Index-Lers who responded so promptly to my posts, on both the Spanish names and the captions. As I'm sure you know, you are all a wonderful resource. I will use the "c" for the caption info, as you all suggested, and put an introductory note in the index. I would also like to say that I too have had Lynn in my thoughts throughout her heart troubles. I hope that soon her physical heart will be as strong again as her soul heart has always been. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Endnotes RR wrote: >Please reply to the list as I was just about to ask the same question. I >would add that in the book I'm working on there are only 2 notes that I >find to be indexable anyway, and I was planning to do it almost as Liza >suggested, such as > >topic, 256n.13 > >where 13 is the actual number of the note. The only problem with that is >that for each chapter the notes begin at 1 again. This could be confusing >except that I'm only indexing the 2 items. > I think this fact is irrelevant. The important thing is that the reader knows _which_ of the myriad notes on that page is being referred to. The fact that in some other chapter endnotes there may be another note 13 is not important, as _this_ note 13 is what is being referred to, ie. the one on page 256. I use a similar approach when indexing textbooks that have substantive discussion in end of chapter problems. It is common in chemistry, physics, and other science texts to have interesting things introduced in problem sections. So I might use 152n12.3 to indicate problem 12.3 in the back of chapter 12, on page 152. I always italicize the n to help set it apart. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:10:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: ASI Washington, DC Chapter meeting At 01:59 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >Ask the Indexer > Saturday, November 22, 1997 Pilar; I'll see you and the other Washington folks there. I checked out your page. It's super!!! I couldn't beleve what a cool background you have. Has it gotten you any work? I'm struggling with a huge update of my superlame page that should be ready in a month or so. It will be my first serious excursion into Web Publishing. Yours is an inspiration for me. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:24:43 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paper Pushers Editorial Services Subject: Embedding info 11-5-97 To Index-Lers Aimee, Beth, Jan, Peg and Seth-- I appreciate your thoughtful responses to my request for info about embedding (including the spelling correction. Duhh). With your help, the big cartoon question mark over my head soon morphed into a happy exclamation point. My sincere thanks to each of you. --Sudsy =============================== Paper Pushers Editorial Services =============================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:39:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky Steele/VENTANA Subject: COPYEDIT-L List Serve Sorry for the waste of bandwith but I need to find out how to subscribe to the copyedit list serve. Can someone please help me - please please please - I am soon to be unemployed and looking for support at all turns.....thank you list for your kindness. b ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:59:54 -0600 Reply-To: bookend@theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Re: windows indexing/Cindex upgrade . I have a > real arm problem with overuse of the mouse. It was a great relief to my right > arm to go to Cindex from the Mac software I was using. So, I will really have > to decide if I want to go that route again. But that's my problem. > > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing I had arm and shoulder pain when I first started using my indexing software. I am right handed, but I took a chance and switched my mouse to the left side. The discomfort went away, and didn't reappear on my left side. I was really surprised at how easy it is to use the mouse this way (I didn't buy a left handed mouse, either). And I am far from ambidextrous. (My left arm is used for carrying children around, my right arm does everything else!) It might be worth a try for you. Susan Hernandez ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:31:13 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: windows indexing/Cindex upgrade In-Reply-To: I have a particularly nasty type of severe arthritis and had a REALLY big problem using a mouse. I switched to a roller-ball type which has helped a lot. The ball on this one is about the size of a tennis ball which makes it very easy to manipulate with the palm of my hand. I still have to watch how much I do on any particular day, but getting rid of the standard mouse made a great deal of difference. Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Susan Danzi Hernandez wrote: > . I have a real arm problem with overuse of the mouse. It was a great > relief to my right arm to go to Cindex from the Mac software I was > using. So, I will really have to decide if I want to go that route > again. But that's my problem. > > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing > I had arm and shoulder pain when I first started using my indexing > software. I am right handed, but I took a chance and switched my mouse > to the left side. The discomfort went away, and didn't reappear on my > left side. I was really surprised at how easy it is to use the mouse > this way (I didn't buy a left handed mouse, either). And I am far from > ambidextrous. (My left arm is used for carrying children around, my > right arm does everything else!) It might be worth a try for you. > > Susan Hernandez ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:22:56 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chuck Banks Subject: Re: COPYEDIT-L List Serve Hi, Becky! You wrote: > Sorry for the waste of bandwith but I need to find out how to subscribe to the > copyedit list serve. Prepare a message with a blank Subject: line. Address the message to listproc@cornell.edu As the only line in the body of the message, enter the following command: SUBSCRIBE COPYEDITING-L If you have questions or problems, contact the list owner(s) at one or more of the following email addresses: bgl1@cornell.edu bblinn@sprynet.com bblinn@procomp.com bblinn@610wtvn.com bill@blinn.com billblinn@juno.com I hope this helps. Best Regards! Chuck Banks -- __ ________ ______ |\\ | || // Chuck Banks | \\ | ||_______ || Senior Technical Writer | \\ | || || NEC America, Inc. | \\| \\______ \\______ E-Mail: chuck@asl.dl.nec.com America, Incorporated WWW: http://www.nec.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:49:28 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: windows indexing/Cindex upgrade Leslie (LLFEdServ@AOL.COM) wrote: >I have to agree that $260 is not a bad price. In fact, when you consider that >it's not really an upgrade, after all but that it's a whole new program, $260 >sounds pretty good. An upgrade would be an upgrade on our DOS version. Now >people will have the option of DOS, Windows, or Mac versions of Cindex. The >only reason I may not purchase it has nothing to do with the price. I have a >real arm problem with overuse of the mouse. It was a great relief to my right >arm to go to Cindex from the Mac software I was using. So, I will really have >to decide if I want to go that route again. But that's my problem. > Leslie, Please don't assume that CINDEX for Mac (or Windows) forces you to use the mouse all the time. I used DOS CINDEX for about a year before getting the Mac version for beta test, and having gotten used to the DOS command and function key interface, I am very pleased with the Mac version of CINDEX. There are keyboard shortcuts for everything you need to do when you are entering or editing head-down. The occasional tools and commands like counting entries and setting up options and page layouts use the mouse, but otherwise my hands never leave the keyboard. The CINDEX developers seem to understand how indexers want to work, and reaching for the mouse every 5 seconds isn't it. I have been told that the Windows version of CINDEX bears a very close resemblance to the Mac version, being based on the same program code modified for the Windows API; perhaps someone knowledgable can comment on the use of CINDEX for Windows via the keyboard. Take care, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter American Society of Indexers *What's indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: windows indexing/Cindex upgrade In a message dated 97-11-06 00:49:36 EST, you write: << I have been told that the Windows version of CINDEX bears a very close resemblance to the Mac version, being based on the same program code modified for the Windows API; perhaps someone knowledgable can comment on the use of CINDEX for Windows via the keyboard. >> Larry, Thanks for the tip. It's worth knowing. I no longer use my Mac for much of anything (truth is, the screen is going and I need to get it fixed), but if that is true of the Windows version, I may invest in it more quickly than I anticipated. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:12:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: QUERY: publishers' names Simon Cauchi has asked me to forward the = following message to Index-L, as he has unsubscribed temporarily. I will gladly forward any responses to him, or perhaps responses could be sent to him off-list. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: INTERNET:COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu, INTERNET:COPYEDITING-L@cornell.= edu TO: Copy Editors and Editing, INTERNET:COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu DATE: 06/11/97 00:51 RE: QUERY: publishers' names Sender: owner-COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu Received: from listproc2.mail.cornell.edu (LISTPROC2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [13= 2.236.56.15]) by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.8) with SMTP id AAA15934 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:51:56 -05 = 00 (EST) Received: from localhost.mail.cornell.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by list= proc2.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27527; Thu, 6 Nov 1= 997 00:46:57 -0500 Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by listproc2.mail= =2Ecornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA25449 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:23:07 -0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cornell.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17859 for COPYEDITING-L@listproc2.mail.cornell.edu; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:23:08 - = 0500 (EST) Received: from axil.wave.co.nz (Axil.wave.co.nz [202.49.46.2]) by cornell.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA17598 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:22:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [202.49.46.42] (wh10-11.wave.co.nz [202.49.46.42]) by axil.wave.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17659 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:20:39 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:22:36 +1300 Reply-To: COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu Sender: owner-COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu Precedence: bulk From: cauchi@wave.co.nz (Simon Cauchi) To: Copy Editors and Editing Subject: QUERY: publishers' names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" X-To: copyediting-l@cornell.edu X-PH: V4.1@cornell.edu (Cornell Modified) = X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.2(a) -- ListProcessor by CREN I'm about to index the second edition of the Oxford History of New Zealan= d Literature and have just finished entering the index of the first edition= (which I also prepared, back in 1990) into my computer. The book includes= a chapter on "publishing, patronage, literary magazines", and the index therefore includes a good many names of publishing firms. According to Wellisch, Indexing from A to Z (2nd edn, 1995), p. 103, corporate names should be entered without any inversion, even when they begin with a forename or initials, thus: Jonathan Cape A. H. and A. W. Reed My concern is that sometimes it's not clear from the context whether "Jonathan Cape" (for example) refers to the firm or to the man who founde= d it and first ran it. I'm inclined to enter such names in the normal inverted form unless there is no doubt that the firm, not the person, is meant. What do you all think? Also, can anyone tell me if the name of the firm "Franklin Watts" is composed of its founder's forename and surname, or is a combination of tw= o surnames, like "Price Milburn"? And if the former, when did Franklin Watt= s found his firm? TIA >From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: five-year-old indexer I was just reading Lucy McCormick Calkins's book _The Art of Teaching Writing_ (Heinemann, 1986), and came across the following anecdote (p. 221): "Recently, several of us watched Noah [a five-year-old] as he worked on a scary Halloween book. Every time he finished a page, Noah flipped to the back of the book and jotted something onto it. 'What are you doing?' we asked, and then Noah showed us what he had written: gosts p. 1 wiches p. 1 owls p. 2 skeletn p. 4 He was making an index for his own book to match the one in the back of his reading book." The same kid put some letters on the back of his book, "BP" over "NM" and said "it's just sumfin for the library," and told them that BP stood for Big Picturebook and NM for Noah Mystand. Anyone want to make bets on how soon this kid is going to be in library school? I think he should get a scholarship. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:11:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: windows indexing/Cindex upgrade In-Reply-To: <199711060549.AA13869@world.std.com> I probably missed something here. Is the Windows version of CINDEX now available? If not, when will it become available? Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:55:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Endnotes In-Reply-To: <199711050526.XAA12064@mixcom.mixcom.com> Do Mi said: > >Another tip: Pull out the endnote pages and read/make entries through them in >parallel to the text. Circle in the text the numbers of notes with >substantive material; x out the ones that aren't substantive. This makes it >easier to go back on subsequent passes through the text. That's very similar to what I do. I highlight the note numbers (of substantive notes only) in both the notes and in the text (I don't bother to cross out nonsubstantive note numbers). Then when I'm keying in entries from the text, I can easily see places where I should stop and look at the notes. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:46:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Triple index question At 05:14 PM 10/29/97 -0800, Martha asked about: >I've been asked to bid on a 240 page book with three indexes (subject, >authors, sources) that the editor believes will need between 18 and 24 >pages of (three) indexes. Without stating any monetary figures, can folks >on the list tell me whether doing three indexes in one book requires a >small additional charge, a middle sized additional charge, or a large >additional charge. > I would base the bid on estimated entries. Just examine a recent index. Divide the number of entries by your billing for a per-entry change. Estimate the total entries per page and base your bid on this. I find that although author entries take little thought, author indexes mean a lot of work. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Central file indexing and SGML Hello, all. I've been indexing some books for a company that uses BookMaster, an embedded tagging language that was sort of the precursor to SGML. The manager asked me about central file indexing--a method of indexing where one develops a terminology list, and then assigns id numbers to all the terms in the hierarchical list. To prepare an index for a book, all the index entries are merely pointers to the ids of the appropriate terms in the central file. That is, the index entries are embedded tags in the book, but you never see what the actual index term is--you only type in a pointer to the id. Anyway, maybe I'm explaining this to people who already know what it is... here's my question: Does SGML lend itself to central file indexing? Have you done it? Was it horrible? Would you do it again? How much would you charge to index fairly technical, dense programming manuals with the central file method? Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:46:03 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Indexing espionage At 06:59 PM 10/30/97 LCL, Victoria wrote about: >"Yet Allen Weinstein is so intent on finding certainty where the record >exudes ambiguity that he even engages in argument-by-index. Look up 'Ales' >in the index of the new edition and one finds '"ALES" (pseud. of Hiss)'." >[p.16] > My only guide is this: in law >indexing I was taught not to state the law, but to describe it. How have >some of you handled cases like this? > I agree. I probably would just have Ales or ALES or Ales/ALES, whichever was in text. Providing the parenthetical information, I think, would also be "adding." I can assure other posters that I have sincere and ongoing doubts about the guilt of Alger Hiss. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:13:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Indexing espionage Some time ago, Victoria Baker wrote that, according to a book by Allen Weinstein, Alger Hiss was also Ales, a view criticized by one Navasky, who claimed that Weinstein even engaged in argument-by-index in including the entry Ales (pseudonym of Alger Hiss) in the index. Victoria wondered if other indexers would have worded such an entry so definitely, echoed the author's statements, without a word like "alleged." I hope I've paraphrased the problem reasonably accurately. Yes, I take what the author says for the wording of my index entries. When I make an index, I am describing the content of the book as the author wrote it; it is not for me to comment on the truth or not of the author's argument. Only when a concrete error is made in the text--a spelling mistake, an inconsistency in facts; e.g., if Ales were written two different ways, or I spotted the author saying in one place that Hiss was Ales and in another that he was not, or throwing doubt on it--would I get on the horn to the editor, for two reasons: that there is an obvious error (obvious, not merely possible) in the text that the editor should know about, and that I must have a resolution so I will know what to put in the index. And therein lies the fallacy in Navasky's assertion of argument-by-index. He seems to think that entries in the index put a sanction on the truth of what's said in the text. His statement may have some validity if Weinstein's book had merely suggested that Ales was Alger Hiss, and the indexer then had assumed this was so; but from what Victoria said, I don't think this was the case. But, such faith in the index; touching, really... Noeline Bridge nbridge@planet.eon.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:32:46 -0700 Reply-To: ollielarue@sprintmail.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Olivia L'Heureux Subject: Re: AOL Chat Log Susan Wilkerson wrote: > Dear Susan, I would like a copy of the AOL Chat log from 11-3-97. Thank you for making this available to us! Sincerely, Olivia L'Heureux -- *************************************** Olivia L'Heureux ollielarue@sprintmail.com *************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Indexing espionage Noeline Bridge wrote: > Yes, I take what the author says for the wording of my index entries. When I > make an index, I am describing the content of the book as the author wrote > it; it is not for me to comment on the truth or not of the author's > argument. Only when a concrete error is made in the text--a spelling > mistake, an inconsistency in facts; e.g., if Ales were written two different > ways, or I spotted the author saying in one place that Hiss was Ales and in > another that he was not, or throwing doubt on it--would I get on the horn to > the editor, for two reasons: that there is an obvious error (obvious, not > merely possible) in the text that the editor should know about, and that I > must have a resolution so I will know what to put in the index. I agree. It is useful for us to bring a certain amount of neutrality to the index, but to pass judgement on the validity or veracity of the author's statements by including the word "alleged" does not seem to me part of our job description. After all, if you are indexing a book which claims the existence of psychic phenomena, are you going to put "alleged" after every entry because they are unproved and unaccepted by the scientific establishment? ("telepathy, alleged"; "telekinesis, alleged"; etc.) Not only does this question one of the premises of the book, it would also make for a very unwieldy index! ;-D Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:31:45 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bill Klein Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Index-L Joanne Wolfe wrote: > > Please unsubscribe me please unsubscribe me - I have tried and tried Lissa Klein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:27:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Indexing espionage At 06:59 PM 10/30/97 LCL, Victoria Baker wrote: >I've just discovered an interesting passage in a review in ^The Nation^ >(Nov. 3) by Victor Navasky of a book called ^Perjury: The Hiss-Chambers >Case^, by Allen Weinstein. . . . Navasky finally writes: > >"Yet Allen Weinstein is so intent on finding certainty where the record >exudes ambiguity that he even engages in argument-by-index. Look up 'Ales' >in the index of the new edition and one finds '"ALES" (pseud. of Hiss)'." >[p.16] > >My comment is that I'm a strong believer in following the text when I >index. The author claims Ales is Hiss. It is not proved. Unfortunately I >can see myself doing what that indexer (assuming it was not Weinstein) did, >possibly in all innocence. Do others agree that the parenthetical >statement should have read (alleged pseu. of Hiss)? I'm not asking about >the political truth. I'm asking, where does an indexer draw the line in >such matters? Does the indexer need to feel convinced by the author's >arguments? Or does the indexer follow the author's statements as the >guide? . . . Of course I agree with Victoria and all who have responded to her so far that as indexers we must follow the text. In this case I don't think I have enough information to suggest a definite alternative, but I can say, at least, that I do think a qualifier is needed because "Ales" as a main heading is just too bare. What I'd like to know is whether the author acknowledges that the identification of "Ales" as Alger Hiss is controversial. If he just makes his claim as a flat statement without any acknowledgement of the controversy, then "Ales (pseud. of Hiss)", whether we like it or not, would fit the text perfectly; but in the context of the controversy, "Ales (pseud. of Hiss)" -- in line with Vicoria's and Navasky's and probably contrary to Noeline's sense of it -- would indeed sound to me like an embracing of or a "sanction on the truth of what's said in the text". Simple as it looks, it would not be neutral. On the other hand, "Ales (alleged pseud. of Hiss)", in the context of the controversy, would seem more neutral to me. Although "alleged" can be used in a pejorative way to cast doubt on what's been said, it is primarily an expression that simply means "asserted" and does not imply adverse judgment, so in the absence of a better term I think it would work fairly well. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:58:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: QUERY: publishers' names Christine, Simon -- I'd use the Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules for corporate bodies as a guide and make entries like this: Cape, Jonathon See Jonathon Cape (Firm) J. C. Penny (Firm) Jonathon Cape (Firm) Penny, J. C. company founder. See J. C. Penny (Firm) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:30:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: QUERY: publishers' names Sorry, about my inadvertant "Send" while in mid-edit. Let me try again, Use AACRII as a guide for corporate bodies and make entries like this: Cape, Jonathon company founder. See Jonathon Cape (Firm) J. C. Penny (Firm) Jonathon Cape (Firm) Penny, J. C. company founder. See J. C. Penny (Firm) Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: Per Entry Rates I posted a couple of weeks ago for suggestions on per entry rates and haven't gotten any informational responses. Please, Help! Stephanie Olivo Olive Press Indexing Services SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:04:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Per Entry Rates Stephanie Are you a member of ASI? If so, you should have received a copy of our salary survey which gave information on the rates charged in 1996. It was included in the KeyWords mailing. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:42:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Per Entry Rates At 12:04 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >Stephanie >Are you a member of ASI? If so, you should have received a copy of our salary >survey which gave information on the rates charged in 1996. It was included >in the KeyWords mailing. Sandi Schroeder Last I knew, a lot of us had yet to see that issue. I still haven't. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Per Entry Rates I just checked my copy of Keywords, and $.60 to $.69 per entry was the most common per-entry fee. I charge by page, so I can't elaborate on that at all. Good luck. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS [Forgive me for posting to the whole list, but I don't know which ones of you will most appreciate the following. --efk] >> NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS > >> YESTERDAY >> Yesterday, >> All those backups seemed a waste of pay. >> Now my database has gone away. >> Oh I believe in yesterday. >> Suddenly, >> There's not half the files there used to be, >> And there's a milestone >> hanging over me >> The system crashed so suddenly. >> I pushed something wrong >> What it was I could not say. >> Now all my data's gone >> and I long for yesterday-ay-ay-ay. >> Yesterday, >> The need for back-ups seemed so far away. >> I knew my data was all here to stay, >> Now I believe in yesterday. >> ============================================ >> Songs to program by... >> Eleanor Rigby >> ------------- >> Eleanor Rigby >> Sits at the keyboard >> And waits for a line on the screen >> Lives in a dream >> Waits for a signal >> Finding some code >> That will make the machine do some more. >> What is it for? >> All the lonely users, where do they all come from? >> All the lonely users, why does it take so long? >> Guru MacKenzie >> Typing the lines of a program that no one will run; >> Isn't it fun? >> Look at him working, >> Munching some chips as he waits for the code to compile; >> It takes a while... >> All the lonely users, where do they all come from? >> All the lonely users, why does it take so long? >> Eleanor Rigby >> Crashes the system and loses 6 hours of work; >> Feels like a jerk. >> Guru MacKenzie >> Wiping the crumbs off the keys as he types in the code; >> Nothing will load. >> All the lonely users, where do they all come from? >> All the lonely users, why does it take so long? >> =================================== >> Unix Man (Nowhere Man) >> -------- >> He's a real UNIX Man >> Sitting in his UNIX LAN >> Making all his UNIX plans >> For nobody. >> Knows the blocksize from du(1) >> Cares not where /dev/null goes to >> Isn't he a bit like you >> And me? >> UNIX Man, please listen(2) >> My lpd(8) is missin' >> UNIX Man >> The wo-o-o-orld is at(1) your command. >> He's as wise as he can be >> Uses lex and yacc and C >> UNIX Man, can you help me At all? >> UNIX Man, don't worry >> Test with time(1), don't hurry >> UNIX Man >> The new kernel boots, just like you had planned. >> He's a real UNIX Man >> Sitting in his UNIX LAN >> Making all his UNIX plans For nobody ... >> Making all his UNIX plans For nobody. >> ================================== >> Write in C ("Let it Be") >> ------------------------ >> When I find my code in tons of trouble, >> Friends and colleagues come to me, >> Speaking words of wisdom: >> "Write in C." >> As the deadline fast approaches, >> And bugs are all that I can see, >> Somewhere, someone whispers: >> "Write in C." >> Write in C, Write in C, >> Write in C, oh, Write in C. >> LOGO's dead and buried, >> Write in C. >> I used to write a lot of FORTRAN, >> For science it worked flawlessly. >> Try using it for graphics! >> Write in C. >> If you've just spent nearly 30 hours, >> Debugging some assembly, >> Soon you will be glad to >> Write in C. >> Write in C, Write in C, >> Write in C, yeah, Write in C. >> BASIC's not the answer. >> Write in C. >> Write in C, Write in C >> Write in C, oh, Write in C. >> Pascal won't quite cut it. >> Write in C. >> ========================= >> Something >> --------- >> Something in the way it fails, >> Defies the algorithm's logic! >> Something in the way it coredumps... >> I don't want to leave it now >> I'll fix this problem somehow >> Somewhere in the memory I know, >> A pointer's got to be corrupted. >> Stepping in the debugger will show me... >> I don't want to leave it now >> I'm too close to leave it now >> You're asking me can this code go? >> I don't know, I don't know... >> What sequence causes it to blow? >> I don't know, I don't know... >> Something in the initializing code? >> And all I have to do is think of it! >> Something in the listing will show me... >> I don't want to leave it now >> I'll fix this tonight I vow! >> > Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -- H. P. Lovecraft ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Keywords (was Per Entry Rates) In a message dated 97-11-07 12:42:41 EST, you write: << Last I knew, a lot of us had yet to see that issue. I still haven't. Dick >> Dick (and others), I hadn't received mine, so I emailed ASI directly (ASI@well.com). They got the issue out to me pretty quickly. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: five-year-old indexer See, you all thought my four-year-old indexer was odd. It's turning out that children like him may be more common than we thought. Of course, my son only does scholarly books. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:26:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: five-year-old indexer Hey, you never know. I indexed (on 3x5 cards in longhand) all my parents' National Geographics when I was about 11, I think. My mom still has the cards up in her attic. My parents never bothered to get the published indexes, and I wanted to look up things for myself and my school projects. I also got incredible satisfaction out of figuring out the subjects of the articles and writing them all out on the cards. A wonderful sense of control. I suppose I should keep an eye on my son (11) and daughter (5) for indexing talents, eh? Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:19:00 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erica Treesh Subject: MARC format for database records Do any database producers who read this list generate index records in MARC format? Our current archival format and data maintenance programs are self-developed, but we are considering a new data input/database maintenance system that will allow us to design a MARC-based archival record format if we choose to do so. I'm part of an in-house group that is exploring the advantages and disadvantages of this option, and we would very much like to discuss off-list your experiences with MARC. The current archival format for the ATLA Religion Indexes allows us to produce indexes in multiple output formats: print, CD-ROM, and MARC format (for libraries wanting to load the data into their online catalogs). Whether or not we opt for a MARC-based archival record, we will need to continue to support these three output formats (and, I suppose, any others as yet unknown that might arise in the near future). Any wisdom you can share regarding MARC and database indexing will be most welcome. Sincerely, Erica Treesh American Theological Library Assn. 820 Church St, suite 400 Evanston, IL 60201 email: etreesh@atla.com web: http://atla.library.vanderbilt.edu/atla/home.html phone: 847/869-7788 fax: 847/869-8513 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:34:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS In-Reply-To: <199711071816.LAA21740@Rt66.com> Thank you, Elsa! I truly needed a good laugh just at the moment your post came through! For the virtual water cooler: I've often wondered, are many of us indexers recovering programmers? I never worked a real job (as opposed to student internships) as a programmer, but I loved the process of programming; for me it was a very intuitive process. Indexing has a similar feeling -- I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly what I do to build a good index -- and I even find myself unravelling knotty indexes in my dreams, just as I used to do with elusive programs. Caroline ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:13:07 -0500 Reply-To: jspool@uie.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Jared M. Spool" Organization: User Interface Engineering Subject: On-Site Searching This following is an article I recently wrote for UIETips. John Sullivan thought you guys would find this to be of interest. Jared - o - o - o - On-Site Searching In a recent study, we sent users off on scavenger hunts of information on various web sites. While all of the information that they sought could be found just by using the links provided, users would often use the search functionality provided by the site. (We saw users use search on 75% of the sites in our study.) This makes sense. Theoretically, if you know the keywords, you should just be able to type them in and instantly find the page you're looking for. However, in practice, it doesn't work that well. Search engines didn't make finding information easier, they made it harder. When users found information without a search engine, they did 50% better than when they tried to use a search engine. Overall, having a search engine on a site doesn't seem to make the site more usable. Of the different sites we tested, the best search engine helped users find the target information only 50% of the time. Some were as low as 25%. We think there are four major reasons for this: 1) Users don't know how to narrow searches Few users did anything other than simple keyword searches. (Almost no one used booleans or other features of the search engines.) They would often type in very broad terms, such as "Videos" when looking for how a video about the Wild West to get a friend. This is the equivalent of walking up to a librarian and just saying "Travel" and expecting they'll instantly find the book on Hawaii that you are interested in. When users got back a result set that was too large to be practical, they often tried completely different keywords instead of adding to the set they had. They didn't seem to know any strategies that would have allowed them to take the stuff already found and narrow it down further (for instance, "regular tire rotation"). None of the sites that we tested provided any useful information on how to narrow a search. In fact, most seemed to assume that users knew how to search effectively and didn't provide any clues at all. 2) Full-text Search engines are not indexed Users didn't seem to understand what a full-text search is. The dynamics of full-text searches are different than looking something up in an index, but users didn't seem to grasp this. For instance, they were surprised when they typed in the word "Tire" on the Car Talk site (http://www.cartalk.com) to find results that contained the word "entire" or the phrase "I'm tired." Although the site did present the option to search for entire words or partial words, users didn't change the setting (the default was partial). We also saw that users didn't understand that plurals and singular words would produce different results and were surprised. Users didn't know that typing errors would produce poor results and couldn't tell that it was a typo, instead of a lack of content, that got them the "nothing found" message. (For example, one user mistyped "Videos" as "Vidoes" and got zero hits -- and then assumed that there weren't any videos on the site.) Full-text searching produces a lot of irrelevant information for users. For instance, one of the tasks we had for the Smithsonian Magazine site (http://www.smithsonianmag.com) was, "Your six-year-old son has to do a report on dinosaurs for school. You remember an excellent article in an old issue of the Smithsonian Magazine that you think would be a fine reference. Go find it." For this task, users naturally typed in the keyword "dinosaur." The first article returned was on the American steel industry -- one of the great American industrial dinosaurs. (Go try this yourself, it's great!) Indexing is a craft that takes a lot of skill. No professional indexer with any self-respect would ever put an article about the steel industry under the topic of dinosaurs. As sites get bigger, this problem will only become more of an issue. Full-text searches will get more noisy and irrelevant as more words are introduced without any sense of what makes them important to the content. Successful searching is essentially an indexing task. To help user search more effectively, this intelligence must be designed into the site. We think that professional indexers and others who have these skills will become more valuable in the years to come. 3) Multiple search areas are not clear Many of the sites provided the ability to search different types of content or different areas of the site. This capability differed from site to site. For instance, the Smithsonian Magazine site lets users search either Feature stories, Columns, or Back Issues '89-'94. Users didn't know which one to pick. Car Talk has four search areas that do not overlap. The designers have scattered the search screens in several different locations (usually with the content it searches). Users not finding information in one area didn't know that they should search other areas. Disney (http://www.disney.com) lets users narrow the areas to search only after they've done an initial search. There is no explanation to users as to how the results from the other areas will be different from the search they just conducted. 4) Search engines are short cuts As a short cut, the search engine is intended to get users quickly to their content. But like other types of short cuts, users first need to know how to get there "the long way." The short cut requires that users understand how the search engine works, how the content has been segmented and indexed, and how content has been labeled (page titles). This is a lot to ask of users and most are not up to the task. Our data shows that the site uses a search engine, there is a strong correlation to users failing to find the right information (r-squared > .7). It also shows that users will gravitate to a search engine when the links are not clear. On sites where no search option was provided, users complained, but did 50% better than the best site that had a search engine. (This is more proof that users don't necessarily know what's good for them.) And with all the times that users failed using search engines, they never seemed to associate the failure with the search engine -- it never occured to them to try a different tack. Instead, they gave up. At this point, based on this information, our recommendation is for site designers to focus on making the long way -- the links of the site -- work effectively for users. - o - o - o - Over the next few weeks, we'll be publishing other findings from our most recent study of web usability in UIETips, which you can subscribe to by sending the word SUBSCRIBE in the body of a message to UIETips-Request@uie.com. Jared ========================================================== Jared M. Spool User Interface Engineering mailto:jspool@uie.com 800 Turnpike Street, Suite 101 (978) 975-4343 North Andover, MA 01845 fax: (978) 975-5353 USA http://www.uie.com If you send me your postal address, you'll get the next issue of our newsletter, Eye For Design. ========================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:49:05 -0700 Reply-To: ollielarue@sprintmail.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Olivia L'Heureux Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS Dear Caroline, I am not yet an indexer, just studying to be one, but I used to be a computer programmer. I think that it takes a certain type of organized and detail-oriented personality to do both (indexing and programming). When I worked as a programmer, I did not find it as challenging or interesting as my college courses. I had several jobs in a variety of settings (university computer department, corporations, library, Christian ministry) over many years but never did truly enjoy it. Indexing I hope will provide the intellectual stimulation and creative challenge for me that programming never did. I too have had dreams of indexing but I never did of programming! *************************************** Olivia L'Heureux ollielarue@sprintmail.com *************************************** Caroline Parks wrote: > > Thank you, Elsa! I truly needed a good laugh just at the moment your post > came through! > > For the virtual water cooler: > > I've often wondered, are many of us indexers recovering programmers? I > never worked a real job (as opposed to student internships) as a > programmer, but I loved the process of programming; for me it was a very > intuitive process. Indexing has a similar feeling -- I'd be hard pressed > to explain exactly what I do to build a good index -- and I even find > myself unravelling knotty indexes in my dreams, just as I used to do with > elusive programs. > > Caroline > > ____________________________ > > Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence > Indexing and Editorial Services > > Tijeras, NM > 505-286-2738 > caroline@rt66.com -- *************************************** Olivia L'Heureux ollielarue@sprintmail.com ***************************************