Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:47:53 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9701B" To: Julius Ariail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: stealth@ican.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was stealth@MAIL.ICAN.NET From: M Dunlop Organization: UNC {AG-EXP-L@VM1.NODAK.EDU}, AI-CHI @ SMTP {AI-CHI@LLL-LCC.LLNL.GOV}, AI-ED @ = SMTP {AI-ED@SUN.COM}, AI-KAPPA @ SMTP {AI-KAPPA-PC@mailbase.ac.uk}, AI-MEDI= C @ SMTP {AI-MEDICINE@MED.STANFORD.EDU}, AIBI-L @ SMTP {AIBI-L@ACADVM1.UOTT= AWA.CA}, AIDS @ SMTP {AIDS@CS.UCLA.EDU}, AIKIDO-L @ SMTP {AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PS= U.EDU}, AIL-L @ SMTP {AIL-L@austin.onu.edu}, AIRLINE @ SMTP {AIRLINE@CUNYVM= .CUNY.EDU},=0A AIRPLANE @ SMTP {AIRPLANE-CLUBS@DG-RTP.DG.COM}, AIUG @ SMTP = {AIUG@DEAKIN.EDU.AU}, AIX-L @ SMTP {AIX-L%BUACCA.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU}, AI= XNEWS @ SMTP {AIXNEWS@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU}, AJAX @ SMTP 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NET, SURINAME@CP.TN.TUDELFT.NL, SWEDISHBRICKS@ME.ROCHESTER.EDU, SYNCHRO-S@U= NIXG.UBC.CA, Sun.Security.Bulletins@SUN.COM, TAP-JAZZ@world.std.com, TBTF@w= orld.std.com, TCC-L@UHCCVM.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU, TE-TALK@IMC.COM, TECHSPIRIT-L@w= illiams.edu, TEXASFLOOD@DMU.AC.UK, TEXWOHIST-L@VENUS.TWU.EDU, THRILLPOWER@T= HEPOINT.COM, TIDBITS@ricevm1.rice.edu, TINCAN-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, TM-LIS= T@CS.UA.EDU, TODAY@pobox.com, TOP5@GITVM1.GATECH.EDU, TOPTEN@LISTSERV.CLARK= .NET, TOURISM@ESUSDA.GOV, TRANSCULTURAL-PSYCHOLOGY@VM1.NODAK.EDU, TRAVABLE@= SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, TRAVEL@FINANCENET.GOV, TRAVEL-L@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR, TRE= KWHO-L@UNIMT.MT, TRUMPET@ACAD1.DANA.EDU, TV2NITE-L@netcom.com, U2@delphi.co= m, UKRAINA@raven.cc.ukans.edu, ULTRA@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, ULTRALITE-LIST= @LISTS.BEST.COM, UNICTR-L@BYU.EDU, UNICYCLING@MCS.KENT.EDU, UNIX-LISTPROC@A= VS.COM, USDA.DVM@ESUSDA.GOV, USENET-ORACLE@CS.INDIANA.EDU, UUPC-ANNOUNCE@KE= W.COM, UUPC-INFO@KEW.COM, VA-HIST@LEO.VSLA.EDU, VAMPYRES@GUVM.CCF.GEORGETOW= N.EDU, VBALL@INTELLIGENCE.COM, VEG-PROD-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, VEGFOOD@CADSERV.CADL= AB.VT.EDU, VEGLIFE@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, VENTURE@CFONLINE.COM, VETINFO@LISTSERV.= NET, VICMUSIC@ozemail.com.au, VICTORIA@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU, VIDEO-WIRE@AI= S.NET, VINTAGE@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, VIRTED@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, VIRUS@LUCIFER.C= OM, VOCALIST@PHOENIX.OULU.FI, VULCAN-L@netcom.com, WALKERS@world.std.com, W= ALLSTREET@SHORE.NET, WAVE_LENGTH@BBS.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA, WELLNESSLIST@WELLN= ESSMART.COM, WH-SUMMARY@ESUSDA.GOV, WHATSNEW@RAHUL.NET, WHEELTOWHEEL@ABINGD= ON.ENG.SUN.COM, WHITEWATER@GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU, WINDSURFING@FLY.COM, WINNE= WS@MICROSOFT.NWNET.COM, WINSOCK-L@LISTPROC.NET, WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE@PAPA.IND= STATE.EDU, WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE-DIGEST@PAPA.INDSTATE.EDU, WINTCP-L@UBVM.CC.BU= FFALO.EDU, WISA@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU, WITTENBERG@CRF.CUIS.EDU, WLREHAB@VM1= .NODAK.EDU, WORDLY-L@EVBHORT.UOGUELPH.CA, WORDPLAY-L@LEVELS.UNISA.EDU.AU, W= ORLDGOV@TOMAHAWK.WELCH.JHU.EDU, WRITERS@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, WWW-ANNOUNCE@www0.c= ern.ch, WWW-BUYINFO@ALLEGRA.ATT.COM, WWW-CIS@SGS-THOMSON.IT, WWW-HTML@www0.= cern.ch, WWW-MANAGERS@LISTS.STANFORD.EDU, WWW-PROXY@www0.cern.ch, WWW-RDB@w= ww0.cern.ch, WWW-SECURITY@ns2.Rutgers.EDU, WWW-TALK@www0.cern.ch, WWW-VRML@= WIRED.COM, X-FILES@LISTS.PIPEX.COM From: "M Dunlop" Reply-To: stealth@ican.net Hi there!!!!! I'm looking for a broad range of people to answer this survey and e-mail this filled out form to: stealth@ican.net This survey is to help me complete my thesis for my Honours Bachelor of Science in Forestry. = When answering the yes/no questions please feel free to add your own comments. When answering the multiple choice please (X) the appropriate answer. Please answer the questions to the best of your knowledge. If you have any questions or further comments please feel free to e-mail me at the address above. 1. Where do you live? (Province and City) 2. What do you do for a living? 3. How old are you? 4. What was the last grade that you completed? 5. What is your definition of a forest ( )a) a source of timber ( )b) a source of food ( )c) a place for recreation ( )d) habitat for plants and animals ( )e) a source of economic gain ( )f) other please specify 6. Do you use the forest for anything? (yes/no) 6b. If yes, please list what you use the forest for (hunting, = fishing, hiking etc.). = 7. What is the greatest threat to the forest ( )a) logging ( )b) pollution ( )c) forest fires and insects ( )d) human intervention in nature ( )e) other please specify 8. Do you feel we are degrading the forest? (yes/no) 9. Do you feel we are protecting the forest? (yes/no) 10. Do you feel that we should be using the forest for economic = gain? (yes/no) 11. Do you think we are planting enough trees? (yes/no) 12. Do you think the forest industry or the government should be = responsible for planting trees (reforestation)? (yes/no) 13. What would you consider good reforestation practices ( )a) planting the same species of trees ( )b) planting different species of trees in the same area ( )c) allowing the forest to return naturally 14. Do you think the forest industry needs regulating by the government? (yes/no) 15. If yes, why? 16. Should we be managing our forests? (yes/no) 17. If yes, what do you consider good management policies ( )a) managing for economic gain ( )b) managing for recreation i.e. fishing, hunting ( )c) managing for a diverse forest i.e. different plants and animals ( )d) managing for conservation of the forest and it's resources ( )e) other please specify 18. Do you think the forest industry is doing enough to protect the environment? (yes/no) 19. Is there any harvesting/logging in your area? (yes/no) 20. Is the forest industry harvesting (cutting) too many trees, = just enough trees, or too few trees? 21. Do you think clearcutting is a good forest practice? (yes/no) 22. Do you think clearcuts are = ( )a) too widely used ( )b) used just enough = ( )c) not used enough 23. Should we allow harvesting in old growth forests? (yes/no) 24. If yes, who should regulate the amount cut ( )a) the forest industry ( )b) the government ( )c) the public 25. Do you think there are too many logging roads? (yes/no) 26. Do you think the logging roads give us too much access to = the forest? (yes/no) 27. If yes or no please explain. 28. If an educational program on forestry practices and the = forest industry were to become available in your area would you attend? (yes/no) A) if yes, why? B) if no, why not? 29. Would you become involved with the forest industry if public involvement was encouraged? (yes/no) A) if yes, why? B) if no, why not? 30. If you could attend a course/seminar on forestry what would you like to see covered? = THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. If you know any one else who wouldn't mind taking the time to fill out this survey I would really appreciate their input.. -------------------------------[ SMTP header ]-----------------------------= - | Return-Path: | Received: from esusda.gov (192.73.224.100) | by mhs.unc.edu (Connect2-SMTP 4.20A.0000021) | for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:37:40 -0500 | Received: from ican.net (ican.net [198.133.36.9]) | by esusda.gov (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP | id TAA19759; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:10:36 -0500 | Received: from Stealth(really [206.248.176.151]) by ican.net | via smail with smtp | id | for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:12:59 -0500 (EST) | (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Jul-10) | Message-Id: | Comments: Authenticated sender is | From: "M Dunlop" | To: 3COM-L%NUSVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, 3D@lbl.gov, | 3DBLASTER@CREATIVE-LABS.CO.UK, 78-L@CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL.EDU, | 90210@ferkel.ucsb.edu, 9370-L%HEARN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, | A.RICE%HAMPVMS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU, AACRL@UABDPO.DPO.UAB.EDU, | AAI@ST-LOUIS-EMH2.ARMY.MIL, AAVLD-L@LISTSERV.NET, ACADV@VM1.NODAK= .EDU, | ACCENTSERVER@NIS.COM, ACCESS-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM, ACCORDION@CS.CMU= .EDU, | ACCRI-L@UABDPO.DPO.UAB.EDU, ACROBAT@BLUEWORLD.COM, | ACSOFT-L@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU, ACT-UP@world.std.com, | ACTNOW-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, ADD-PARENTS@MV.MV.COM, | ADDICT-L@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, ADND-L%UTARLVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, | ADOPTEES@UCSD.EDU, ADVANC-L@LISTSERV.NET, | ADVISE-L%CANADA01.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, AE@SJSUVM1.sjsu.edu, | AECM-L@LOYOLA.EDU, AECUDEP-L@ADMIN.ACES.K12.CT.US, | AERONAUTICS@rascal.ics.utexas.edu, AEROSP-L@SIVM.SI.EDU, | AFAS-L@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, AFRICA-L@oraculo.lcc.ufmg.br, | AFRICA-L@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu, AFRICANA@wmvm1.cc.wm.edu, | AG-EXP-L@VM1.NODAK.EDU, AI-CHI@LLL-LCC.LLNL.GOV, AI-ED@SUN.COM, | AI-KAPPA-PC@mailbase.ac.uk, AI-MEDICINE@MED.STANFORD.EDU, | AIBI-L@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA, AIDS@CS.UCLA.EDU, AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PSU.E= DU, | AIL-L@austin.onu.edu, AIRLINE@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, | AIRPLANE-CLUBS@DG-RTP.DG.COM, 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BAPTIST@UKCC.uky.edu, BASEBALL-CHAT@solutions.apple.com, | BASQUE-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, BATAILLE@THINK.NET, BAUDRILLARD@THINK.N= ET, | BBS-L@SAUPM00.BITNET, BBSHOP@CRAY.COM, BCS_CAD-SIG@world.std.com, | BEASTIELIST@world.std.com, BEDROCK-LIST@netcom.com, | BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU, BEHAV-AN@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | BELIEF-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM, BEN@CUE.BC.CA, BENJAMIN@THINK.NET, | BENSON@world.std.com, BERITA-L@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu, | BERMUDA-LOVERS@world.std.com, BESTWEB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR, | BETTAS@ARIZVM1.CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU, BGRASS-L@UKCC.uky.edu, | BI-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU, BIBLE-L@wkuvx1.wku.edu, | BIBLIO@IRIS.CLAREMONT.EDU, BIBLIONUMIS-L@netcom.com, | BIBSOCAN@VM.UTCC.UTORONTO.CA, BIBSOFT@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU, | BICYCLE@LISTPROC.NET, BIFIDA-L@MERCURY.DSU.EDU, BIG-LAN@SUVM.SYR.= EDU, | BIGM-L@VM.SAS.COM, BIKECOMMUTE@igc.apc.org, | BIKECURRENT@SCUBA.ENG.SUN.COM, BIKEPEOPLE@DAIZU.UCSC.EDU, | BILINGUE-L@REYNOLDS.K12.OR.US, BIN-L@UKCC.uky.edu, BIND@uunet.uu.= net, | BIO-NAUT@IRLEARN.UCD.IE, 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CDN-FIREARMS-DIGEST@SFN.SASKATOON.SK.CA, CDN-NUCL-L@MCMASTER.CA, | CDR-L@TULSAJC.TULSA.CC.OK.US, CDROMLAN@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU, | CELIAC@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, CELLWALL@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | CERT-ADVISORY@CERT.ORG, CET-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, CET-NEWS@ESUSDA.GOV, | CFD@UKCC.uky.edu, CHANTER-LISTE@WIMSEY.COM, CHANTEUSE-LISTE@WIMSE= Y.COM, | CHELYFAN@GRENDEL.MO.NET, CHESSIE-L@IO.COM, CHIAPAS-L@profmexis.sa= r.net, | CHIHUA-L@PLEARN.EDU.PL, CHILE-HEADS@CHILE.UCDMC.UCDAVIS.EDU, | CHIMNEYS-L@aol.com, CHINESE-CDROM@RAHUL.NET, CHIRO-LIST@SILCOM.CO= M, | CHOCO@APK.NET, CICHLID-L@NRM.SE, CICSTALK@IMC.COM, CIDOC-L@NRM.SE= , | CIE-NEWS@UCI.EDU, CISA-L@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, CITE-JOBS-MG@ESUSDA.GO= V, | CLINICAL-PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGY@mailbase.ac.uk, COE@JPUNIX.COM, | COLORING@INFI.NET, COMMUNITY-MUSIC@MPD.TANDEM.COM, | COMP-GOPHER-DIFFS@EFF.ORG, COMP-ORG-EFF-NEWS@EFF.ORG, | COMP-ORG-EFF-TALK@EFF.ORG, COMPOST@LISTPROC.WSU.EDU, | CONG-REFORM@ESSENTIAL.ORG, CONSUMABLE@PILOT.NJIN.NET, | COSTELLO@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU, COUNTRY-MUSIC@world.std.com, | COUPLES-L@cornell.edu, CP@opus.hpl.hp.com, CPM-L@VM.ITS.RPI.EDU, | CPSR@GWUVM.GWU.EDU, CPSR-CPU@CPSR.ORG, CRYONICS@WHSCAD1.ATT.COM, | CRYPTO-L@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU, CSN@XC.Org, CU-TALK@USA.NET, | CURRENT-L@netcom.com, CWD-L@CYBERWERKS.COM, | DARWIN-L@raven.cc.ukans.edu, DATSUN-ROADSTERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET, | DAYBOOK@WWW.GAO.GOV, DECNEWS-PR@PA.DEC.COM, DECNEWS-UNIX@PA.DEC.C= OM, | DECUSERVE-JOURNAL@EISNER.DECUS.ORG, DEMOCRAT-ISSUES@CEDAR.CIC.NET= , | DEMOCRAT-ISSUES-DIGEST@CEDAR.CIC.NET, DENTALWEB@BITE.DB.UTH.TMC.E= DU, | DENTAL_CE@BITE.DB.UTH.TMC.EDU, DERBY@EKRL.COM, | DIALOG-INFO@WWW.DIALOG.COM, DIGERATI@AI.MIT.EDU, DIGVID-L@ucdavis= .edu, | DILBERT_LIST@INTERNEX.NET, DISASTER.RESEARCH@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU, | DISCUS-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, DJGPP@SUN.SOE.CLARKSON.EDU, | DKB-L@vm.ege.edu.tr, DOGS-L@teleport.com, DOM_BIRD@PLEARN.EDU.PL, | DREAMPOP-L@netcom.com, DS9-TALK@STARGAME.ORG, E-JOG@BCM.TMC.EDU, | EA@EAP.COM, EARTHANDSKY@LISTS.UTEXAS.EDU, EAT-L@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, | ECOCT-A@SEARN.SUNET.SE, ECOL-ECON@CSF.COLORADO.EDU, | EFF-ACTIVISTS@EFF.ORG, EFFECTOR-ONLINE@EFF.ORG, EFLIST@HTBBS.COM, | ELO-LIST@ANDREW.CMU.EDU, EMERGENCY-PSYCHIATRY@mailbase.ac.uk, | EMPATHY@uga.cc.uga.edu, EMU-RATITE@MAGIC.YOURNET.COM, ENCTALK@IMC= .COM, | ENVCEE@REC.HU, ENVIROETHICS@mailbase.ac.uk, ENVIRONMENT-L@cornell= .edu, | EPUBS-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, EQUINE-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU, ERS-REPORTS@ESUSDA.G= OV, | ESBDC-L@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, ESLCC@HCC.HAWAII.EDU, | ESPAN-L@taunivm.tau.ac.il, EXCEL-G@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM, | EXCEL-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM, EXOTIC-CARS@SOL.ASL.HITACHI.COM, | EXOTICA@XMISSION.COM, EXPLORE@LISTPROC.NET, F-BODY@SPDCC.COM, | FAB-L@UEL.AC.UK, FAB-UFO@LISTS.PIPEX.COM, FACSUP-L@UCONNVM.UCONN.= EDU, | FAMBUS-L@netcom.com, FASE@CS.UH.EDU, FATFREE@HUSTLE.RAHUL.NET, | FBPRO@MEADOW.MDSO.VF.GE.COM, FEM-BIBLIO@JPUNIX.COM, | FEMREL-L@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu, FERRET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, | FICTION-L@LISTSERV.NSLSILUS.ORG, FIN-AUDITS@FINANCENET.GOV, | FIN-POLICY@FINANCENET.GOV, FIN-REPORTING@FINANCENET.GOV, | FIN-SYSTEMS@FINANCENET.GOV, FIN-TRAINING@FINANCENET.GOV, | FINLANDIA@PHOENIX.OULU.FI, FIRE-L@cornell.edu, FIRE-LIST@halcyon.= com, | FOODLINK@LISTPROC.WSU.EDU, FORDNATICS@LISTS.BEST.COM, | FORENSIC-PSYCHIATRY@mailbase.ac.uk, FROGJOBS@LISTPROC.NET, | FRUGAL-L@BEST.COM, FUNKY-MUSIC@MIT.EDU, GARBO-ANN@GARBO.UWASA.FI, | GARGOYLES@SARD.MV.NET, GARGOYLES-DIGEST@LISTS.MV.NET, | GENERAL@CSR.UNIBO.IT, GENETIC-DISEASE@SHAMASH.NYSERNET.ORG, | GENTALK@USA.NET, GEOSYN@CSN.ORG, GFULMED@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | GIANTS@solutions.apple.com, GIANTS-SCORES@solutions.apple.com, | GIANTS-TICKETS@solutions.apple.com, GIGGLES@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, | GOATSLITE@teleport.com, GOTHIC.LITERATURE@mailbase.ac.uk, | GOVSALES@FINANCENET.GOV, GRAHAM-PARKER@primenet.com, | GRANTS-L@GSUVM1.GSU.EDU, GREEN.TRAVEL@igc.apc.org, | GRUNGE-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, GUTSFRISBEE-L@MTU.EDU, H-AMREL@msu.= edu, | H-AMSTDY@UICVM.UIC.EDU, H-COSTUME@ANDREW.CMU.EDU, | HANDYMAN-HINTS@CEDAR.CIC.NET, HANG-GLIDING@VIRGINIA.EDU, | HARLEYS@THINKAGE.ON.CA, HDTVNEWSLIST@TELETRON.COM, | HEM-ONC@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, HEPROC-L@AMERICAN.EDU, | HEPV-L@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, HEY-JOE@ms.uky.edu, HILAT-L@LISTSERV.NE= T, | HINDU-D@ARIZVM1.CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU, HISTARCH@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, | HOLISTIC@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU, HOMEHLTH@USA.NET, | HONDA-PERF@RIPKEN.OIT.UNC.EDU, HORSE@world.std.com, HOTROD@DIXIE.= COM, | HOUSEBUN@GARCIA.COM, HPSCHD-L@ALBANY.EDU, HPUX-ADMIN@CV.RUU.NL, | HTMARCOM@RMII.COM, HTML-LIST@NETCENTRAL.NET, | HUDSON-R@MATRIX.NEWPALTZ.EDU, HUM-MOLGEN@NIC.SURFNET.NL, | HWG-MAIN@RPMDP.COM, HWG-MAIN-DIGEST@chezrob.rpmdp.com, | HWY61-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, I-TV@KNOWLEDGEWORK.COM, | IAML-L@freeside.nrm.se, IAWM@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU, IBDLIST@menno.com, | IDFORUM@yorku.ca, ILoveLucy@bolis.sf-bay.org, IMAGINATION@BOUN.ED= U.TR, | IMALL-CHAT@netcom.com, IMALL-L@netcom.com, IMPULSE@DSIGROUP.COM, | IMR@ISI.EDU, INCLASS@SCHOOLNET.CARLETON.CA, | INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU, INFINI-D@uafsysb.uark.edu, | INFO-DATABASIX@DIS.NL, INFO-GNU@PREP.AI.MIT.EDU, INFOCD@PERCH.NOS= C.MIL, | INTERNET-SALES@MMGCO.COM, INTERTEXT@INTERTEXT.COM, IRCHAT@CC.TUT.= FI, | IRIS-ON-LINE@SGI.COM, IRISHLAW@IRLEARN.UCD.IE, ISED-L@LISTSERV.SY= R.EDU, | ITFS-L@ENM.UMA.MAINE.EDU, IUPRESSL@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU, | IndiaWorld@INDIAWORLD.COM, Initial.Value@VM.STLAWU.EDU, | InterQuilt@CCMAIL.SUNYSB.EDU, J-JRNL@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, | JACKSON-ROANE.VA@SVIS.ORG, JAIN-L@INDIRECT.COM, JAVA-MAC@NATURAL.= COM, | JAVA-MAC-DIGEST@NATURAL.COM, JAZZ-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, | JEWELRY@MISHIMA.MN.ORG, JEWISH@ISRAEL.NYSERNET.ORG, | JOE-JACKSON@primenet.com, JUDGES-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, | JULIEMASSE-LISTE@WIMSEY.COM, JUST-L@BGU.EDU, | John.Denver.Internet.Fan.Club@delphi.com, K-D-LANG@world.std.com, | KAWASAKI@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU, KENNEL-L@netcom.com, | KFFIC-L@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, KFTLC-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU, | KIDS-ELEMENTARY@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIDS-INFANT@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, | KIDS-NEWBORN@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIDS-PRESCHOOL@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, | KIDS-PRETEEN@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIDS-TEEN@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, | KIDS-TODDLER@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIOSKS-L@LANL.GOV, | KISSARMY-DIGEST@wkuvx1.wku.edu, KITES@HARVARD.HARVARD.EDU, | KIWIMUSIC@athena.mit.edu, KNICKS@HALLUX.MEDSCHOOL.HSCBKLYN.EDU, | KSPACE-LIST@KSPACE.COM, LA-RADIO@HELEN.SURFCTY.COM, | LABORFILMS@COUGAR.COM, LANSRV-L@MARIST.EDU, | LANWORKS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, LATE-SHOW-NEWS@AMERICAN.EDU, | LAWLIBREF-L@ACC.WUACC.EDU, LEAFMULCH-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, | LEGALTEN@world.std.com, LIBIDAHO@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU, | LIBJOB@firefly.prairienet.org, LIMDEP-L@GSB.USYD.EDU.AU, | LINGUIST@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU, LINUX-ACTIVISTS@NIKSULA.HUT.FI, | LISTEN-2@BGU.EDU, LITHO-L@UNB.CA, LITHOBID@UNB.CA, | LLAJTA@IO.DSD.LITTON.COM, LOANSTAR@TWU.EDU, LOISCLA@VM.EGE.EDU.TR= , | LONGEVITY@vm.ege.edu.tr, LOST-CHORDS@MIT.EDU, LOTUS-CARS@netcom.c= om, | LSA-L@uga.cc.uga.edu, LSOFT-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.NET, LT-ANTIQ@vm.sc= .edu, | LTHRN-L@BGU.EDU, LUTE@CS.DARTMOUTH.EDU, LYCOS-USERS@MAIL.MSEN.COM= , | Leica.Cameras@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us, MAC-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, | MAC-MGRS@world.std.com, MACCHAT@VM.TEMPLE.EDU, MACMULTI@LISTSERV.= NET, | MACNET-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, MACPB-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, | MACPPC-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, MACSCRPT@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU, | MAE-ANNOUNCE@solutions.apple.com, MAE-BUGS@solutions.apple.com, | MAE-USERS@solutions.apple.com, MALAWI@UNH.EDU, | MANAGED-BEHAVIOURAL-HEALTHCARE@mailbase.ac.uk, MARBLE@SOUTHWIND.N= ET, | MARKET-L@mailer.fsu.edu, MARYLIB@UMAB.UMD.EDU, | MATERIALS-L@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK, MAZDA-LIST@ms.uky.edu, | MBISHOP+PFAFF@CCMAIL.SUNYSB.EDU, MEDIAWEB@VM.TEMPLE.EDU, | MEDITATION@UTMB.EDU, MEDPHYS@RADONC.DUKE.EDU, MELIBS-L@MAINE.MAIN= E.EDU, | MEMO-NET@VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU, MENIERE@EARS.COM, | MERCEDES-LACKEY@HERALD.CO.UK, MET-STUD@BIBO.MET.FU-BERLIN.DE, | METACARD-LIST@BEST.COM, METALLURGY-L@MTU.EDU, MIATA@JHUNIX.HCF.JH= U.EDU, | MILIEU@YOYO.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU, MINOLTA-L@RIT.EDU, MISTNET@VM.STLAW= U.EDU, | MM-RECIPES@ALEXR.DEMON.CO.UK, MOBILITY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, | MOCAVES@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU, MOCHIN@ISRAEL.NYSERNET.ORG, | MODELRR@CADSERV.CADLAB.VT.EDU, MODERATENET@delphi.com, | MONKEES@primenet.com, MONOPOLY@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, | MOPAR@THOR.ISP.NWU.EDU, MOSAIC-L@UICVM.UIC.EDU, | MOVIES-SEIVOM@KINEXIS.COM, MR2-INTEREST@VALIDGH.COM, | MSDOS-ANN@SIMTEL.COAST.NET, MSP-L@ALBANY.EDU, | MTO-LIST@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU, MUD@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU, MULT-ED@GMU.EDU, | MUNINET@FINANCENET.GOV, MUSICA@PANTHEON.IT, MUSPRF-L@CMSUVMB.CMSU= .EDU, | Mike.Oldfield.and.his.music@VTCC1.CC.VT.EDU, | Muscular.Dystrophy.List@DATA.BASIX.COM, | Music-Research.Digest@CATTELL.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU, | NABOKV-L@UCSBVM.UCSB.EDU, NACUFS@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, NAMNET@LISSE.N= A, | NAT-WORK@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU, NATOSCI@STC.NATO.INT, | NATURECONNECT@store-forward.mindspring.com, NATURIST-ACTION@netco= m.com, | NEIGHBORHOOD-DANCE@world.std.com, NET-GUIDE@EFF.ORG, | NET-HAPPENINGS@IS.INTERNIC.NET, NETIQUETTE@ALBION.COM, | NETJAM@XCF.BERKELEY.EDU, NETSCAPE@IRLEARN.UCD.IE, | NETTRAIN@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, NETW4-L@BGU.EDU, NEWPROD@world.std.= com, | NEWS@FINANCENET.GOV, NEWTON-L@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, | NEXTSTEP@VMA.CC.ND.EDU, NIC-NEWS@u.washington.edu, | NIETZSCH@DARTMOUTH.EDU, NM@XMISSION.COM, NOCALL-LIST@netcom.com, | NORDIC-SKI@GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU, NOTGNU@netcom.com, | NPPA-L@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU, NRCH@USA.NET, NSTOOLS@NETSURF.COM, | NUMISM-L@vm.sc.edu, NURSERES@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, NorWord@GAC.EDU, | OB-GYN-L@BCM.TMC.EDU, OBJECTPAL-L@uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu, | OBLOMOV@RUG.NL, OCCASIONAL-SCREENFUL@netcom.com, OCD-L@VM.MARIST.= EDU, | OFFROAD@AI.GTRI.GATECH.EDU, OLDCATH-L@STOUR.IINET.COM.AU, | OLYMPUCK@MAINE.MAINE.EDU, ONLINE-NEWS@MARKETPLACE.COM, | ONO-NET@VM1.SPCS.UMN.EDU, OPERLIST@EFF.ORG, | OPHTHAL@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, OPTIMAL@VISION.EEI.UPMC.EDU, | ORA-NEWS@ONLINE.ORA.COM, ORIENTEERING@GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU, | OS2PRO-L@HEARN.NIC.SURFNET.NL, OUTCOMETEN@world.std.com, | OVARIAN-CANCER@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, OVR-CAVE@UKCC.uky.edu, | OXYFRESH@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, OZWINE@KOALA.CS.COWAN.EDU.AU, | PAGEMAKER@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU, PAIN-L@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, | PAS-LOVERS@QICLAB.SCN.RAIN.COM, PAUL-HARVEY-LIST@MBNET.MB.CA, | PAYROLL@FINANCENET.GOV, PCORPS-L@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU, PDF-L@BINC.= NET, | PEIRCE-L@UNICORN.ACS.TTU.EDU, PEN-PALS@fs1.MAINSTREAM.COM, | PERF-MEASURES@FINANCENET.GOV, PEROT@VM.MARIST.EDU, | PERSPECTIVE@DIGMEDIA.COM, PERU@CS.SFSU.EDU, PET-NEWS-L@netcom.com= , | PETBUNNY@UKCC.uky.edu, PGP-PUBLIC-KEYS@C2.ORG, PHOTO-3D@CSG.LBL.G= OV, | PHOTO-CD@INFO.KODAK.COM, PHOTO-L@CSUOHIO.EDU, PHYSICS@QEDQCD.RYE.= NY.US, | PIANO-L@UAMONT.EDU, POI-DIGEST@PRESTO.IG.COM, POL-ECON@SHSU.EDU, | POLIO@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, POP@JHUNIX.HCF.JHU.EDU, | POPULATION-BIOLOGY@NET.BIO.NET, POVGUI-L@vm.ege.edu.tr, | PRA@uoguelph.ca, PRACTICE@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, | PRISON-L@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, PRIVACY@FTC.GOV, PRLIST@HTBBS.CO= M, | PROCUREMENT@FINANCENET.GOV, PSYCHO-PHARM@netcom.com, | PSYGRD-J@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA, PSYUSA@aol.com, Party-of-Five@WWA.CO= M, | QUAKER-L@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu, 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SEC-LABELLING@DAEDALUS.DRA.HMG.GB, | SF-LIT@LOC.GOV, SHABBATSHALOM@ISRAEL.NYSERNET.ORG, | SINATRA@VM.TEMPLE.EDU, SLEDDOG@CSN.ORG, SLLING-L@YALEVM.YCC.YALE.= EDU, | SMAIL3-USERS@CS.ATHABASCAU.CA, SMAIL3-WIZARDS@CS.ATHABASCAU.CA, | SMALLFRUIT-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, SMARTLIST@INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE, | SNEAKERS@CS.YALE.EDU, SOREHAND@UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU, | SPANBORD@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, SPECTRUM-BOL@CompuServe.COM, | SPIRIT-L@AMERICAN.EDU, SPORTSCI@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ, | SPOUSE-SUPPORT@TEXSYS.COM, SPOUSE-SUPPORT-DIGEST@TEXSYS.COM, | STATE-COUNTY@FINANCENET.GOV, STHL-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL, | STOCK-PICKING@LISTSERV.NASHVILLE.NET, STOCKPHOTO@INFO.CURTIN.EDU.= AU, | STRANGE.FRUIT@GDB.ORG, STRAT-O-MATIC@CWIS.ISU.EDU, | STS-L@utkvm1.utk.edu, STUDENTLAWTECH@LISTSERV.LAW.CORNELL.EDU, | STUT-HLP@BGU.EDU, SUB-ARCH@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, SUNFLASH@SUN.COM, | SURGINET@LISTSERV.NET, SURINAME@CP.TN.TUDELFT.NL, | SWEDISHBRICKS@ME.ROCHESTER.EDU, SYNCHRO-S@UNIXG.UBC.CA, | Sun.Security.Bulletins@SUN.COM, TAP-JAZZ@world.std.com, | TBTF@world.std.com, TCC-L@UHCCVM.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU, TE-TALK@IMC.COM= , | TECHSPIRIT-L@williams.edu, TEXASFLOOD@DMU.AC.UK, | TEXWOHIST-L@VENUS.TWU.EDU, THRILLPOWER@THEPOINT.COM, | TIDBITS@ricevm1.rice.edu, TINCAN-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, | TM-LIST@CS.UA.EDU, TODAY@pobox.com, TOP5@GITVM1.GATECH.EDU, | TOPTEN@LISTSERV.CLARK.NET, TOURISM@ESUSDA.GOV, | TRANSCULTURAL-PSYCHOLOGY@VM1.NODAK.EDU, TRAVABLE@SJUVM.STJOHNS.ED= U, | TRAVEL@FINANCENET.GOV, TRAVEL-L@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR, | TREKWHO-L@UNIMT.MT, TRUMPET@ACAD1.DANA.EDU, TV2NITE-L@netcom.com, | U2@delphi.com, UKRAINA@raven.cc.ukans.edu, | ULTRA@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, ULTRALITE-LIST@LISTS.BEST.COM, | UNICTR-L@BYU.EDU, UNICYCLING@MCS.KENT.EDU, UNIX-LISTPROC@AVS.COM, | USDA.DVM@ESUSDA.GOV, USENET-ORACLE@CS.INDIANA.EDU, | UUPC-ANNOUNCE@KEW.COM, UUPC-INFO@KEW.COM, VA-HIST@LEO.VSLA.EDU, | VAMPYRES@GUVM.CCF.GEORGETOWN.EDU, VBALL@INTELLIGENCE.COM, | VEG-PROD-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, VEGFOOD@CADSERV.CADLAB.VT.EDU, | VEGLIFE@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, VENTURE@CFONLINE.COM, VETINFO@LISTSERV.N= ET, | VICMUSIC@ozemail.com.au, VICTORIA@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU, | VIDEO-WIRE@AIS.NET, VINTAGE@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, | VIRTED@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, VIRUS@LUCIFER.COM, VOCALIST@PHOENIX.OUL= U.FI, | VULCAN-L@netcom.com, WALKERS@world.std.com, WALLSTREET@SHORE.NET, | WAVE_LENGTH@BBS.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA, WELLNESSLIST@WELLNESSMART.COM= , | WH-SUMMARY@ESUSDA.GOV, WHATSNEW@RAHUL.NET, | WHEELTOWHEEL@ABINGDON.ENG.SUN.COM, WHITEWATER@GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.ED= U, | WINDSURFING@FLY.COM, WINNEWS@MICROSOFT.NWNET.COM, | WINSOCK-L@LISTPROC.NET, WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE@PAPA.INDSTATE.EDU, | WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE-DIGEST@PAPA.INDSTATE.EDU, | WINTCP-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, WISA@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU, | WITTENBERG@CRF.CUIS.EDU, WLREHAB@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | WORDLY-L@EVBHORT.UOGUELPH.CA, WORDPLAY-L@LEVELS.UNISA.EDU.AU, | WORLDGOV@TOMAHAWK.WELCH.JHU.EDU, WRITERS@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, | WWW-ANNOUNCE@www0.cern.ch, WWW-BUYINFO@ALLEGRA.ATT.COM, | WWW-CIS@SGS-THOMSON.IT, WWW-HTML@www0.cern.ch, | WWW-MANAGERS@LISTS.STANFORD.EDU, WWW-PROXY@www0.cern.ch, | WWW-RDB@www0.cern.ch, WWW-SECURITY@ns2.Rutgers.EDU, | WWW-TALK@www0.cern.ch, WWW-VRML@WIRED.COM, X-FILES@LISTS.PIPEX.CO= M | Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:53:32 +0000 | Subject: PLEASE RESPOND EVERYONE PRIVATELY TO STEALTH@ICAN.NET | Reply-to: stealth@ican.net | Priority: normal | X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:16:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DLWITT@ALEX.STKATE.EDU Subject: stealth@ican.net Just asking. What is this long list of addressess and why is it on INDEX-L? dlwitt@alex.stkate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:46:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net At 07:16 AM 1/8/97 -0600, you wrote: >Just asking. What is this long list of addressess and why is it >on INDEX-L? dlwitt@alex.stkate.edu > Something fishy with this stealth@ican.net. Yesterday I got a lengthy survey questionnaire about U.S. forestry practices from some anonymous source who said he was a student working on a degree in forestry. Today, this latest load of crap downloaded something to my hard disk. Anyone know what's going on? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:52:48 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: IRS& deductions ------------6F8B202F2D120 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sonsie wrote: > William, my tax preparer (and other EAs) have told me that software is an oddball exception to the Section 179 rule. It =must= be depreciated over its useful life, which can be anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think you could probably 179 a $15 program, but Macrex or Cindex must be depreciated if you're going strictly by the IRS rules. Sonsie, I guess this shows how much tax people disagree. They may be wrong but I have been repeatedly told just the opposite for shrinkwrapped software - anything not custom programmed. As far as I know that has never been challenged since it is no different than a book to its user, even if it is "intangleble property". The original rules were designed for the code a company owned and developed, not the off-the-shelf day-to-day tools of a person's trade and are woefully out of touch with the reality of business. As to the less than $50-100 stuff, that is all expensed anyway, not 179'd. I have very little software that lasts 2 years, much less three, before an update makes its way onto my system. I can't wait until they do away with the IRS. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ------------6F8B202F2D120 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Sonsie wrote: 
> William, my tax preparer (and other EAs) have told me that software is an oddball exception to the Section 179 rule. It =must= be depreciated over its useful life, which can be anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think you could probably 179 a $15 program, but Macrex or Cindex must be depreciated if  you're going strictly by the IRS rules.
 
Sonsie,
 
I guess this shows how much tax people disagree. They may be wrong but I have been repeatedly told just the opposite for shrinkwrapped software - anything not custom programmed. As far as I know that has never been challenged since it is no different than a book to its user, even if it is "intangleble property". The original rules were designed for the code a company owned and developed, not the off-the-shelf day-to-day tools of a person's trade and are woefully out of touch with the reality of business.
 
As to the less than $50-100 stuff, that is all expensed anyway, not 179'd.
I have very little software that lasts 2 years, much less three, before an update makes its way onto my system. 
 
I can't wait until they do away with the IRS.
-- 
William Meisheid  "Thoughts still and always in progress"
Certified RoboHELP Training
WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve
Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com
wgm@sageline.com  410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456
 
------------6F8B202F2D120-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net At 10:46 AM 1/8/97 -0500, Richard T. Evans wrote: >Something fishy with this stealth@ican.net. Yesterday I got a lengthy >survey questionnaire about U.S. forestry practices from some anonymous >source who said he was a student working on a degree in forestry. Today, >this latest load of crap downloaded something to my hard disk. Dick, I got both the survey (completely inappropriate for this list...and for most of the lists that appeared in the cc list) and the three big text files. But from what I saw, 2 of the 3 were just huge "address lists" and the third was a repeat of the survey. I didn't notice that anything else was being downloaded onto my HD other than these messages. Prepare yourselves for an onslaught of copied messages as the hundreds of outraged recipients write back to the listowner and/or the sender about this nonsense. Many people can't figure out how to do anything but press the reply button...which means that all recipients of the first message will be inadvertently copied on all subsequent ones. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:42:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Indexing rates >If it takes two hours to do 50 pages and you need $30 per hour (which is >effectively about $15 per hour, considering freelancer overhead) to get by, >then 25 pages per hour dictates you need only $1.20 per page. If it takes >you 12 hours (and this has happened to me) then a bit over 4 pages per hour >dictates over $7.00 per page. I don't know how well this scheme works for brand-new indexers. New indexers work much slower than they will when they have more experience. If they charge the way you describe, their rates will have to be very high, and they won't be able to compete. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:42:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: INDEXING RATES >Really, Julia, you've got to be more assertive. Why didn't you ask her >to tell you how much the other person would be getting paid? Why didn't >they tell you that they thought your quote was a little steep--thus >paving the way for a little negotiating? If your friend's colleague had >a lot of experience with "this sort of thing," he should have known that >freelancers would rather negotiate for a price that would please >everyone rather than lose an assignment, all other things being equal. In my experience, authors do not (typically) negotiate. It may be in *our* interests to negotiate, but the author might not have a whole lot of incentive to do so and might not even *like* negotiating. Suppose the author has talked to 3 or 4 indexers and gotten 3 or 4 different rates. I think most people are going to take the lowest rate of those (and figure in whatever else they think is important to their decision, e.g., indexer's experience). I don't mean to say that we shouldn't try to negotiate for a job we really want, but I'm not at all surprised that this author didn't. Nor do I think the author is under any sort of obligation to tell the indexer what somebody else's rate is or to negotiate. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:26:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net At 08:51 AM 1/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >Dick, I got both the survey (completely inappropriate for this list...and >for most of the lists that appeared in the cc list) and the three big text >files. But from what I saw, 2 of the 3 were just huge "address lists" and >the third was a repeat of the survey. I didn't notice that anything else was >being downloaded onto my HD other than these messages. I use Eudora Lite, which automatically downloads attached files. (No way to turn it off.) This is indicated by a window with a "downloading" message and a progress bar. I got one of those windows when Eudora opened those messages, but other than that I can't find anything unusual on my hard disk. If no one else sees any attached files, then it may have been a quirk of Eudora handling unusually long message files. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:31:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Re: Indexing rates. Thanks (CHAT) In-Reply-To: <199701081748.MAA21843@server1.capaccess.org> To all those who replied to my query Thanks ever so much. I'm feeling a little less deflated now. :-) Regards Julia Marshall juliam@capaccess.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:37:02 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net I also received the attached files with the second message. I sent the whole thing back, attachments included. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:47:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Nagel/MasterWork Subject: Re: CHAT cats Rachel Rice wrote: >The biggest problem is hair in the CPU, Aha! I don't suppose any of you INDEX-L cat-owners know how to get feline fur out of a Syquest cartridge? I need to get at a couple of old files, and whenever I put the cartridge in the drive, I get this burning-wool smell and lots of funny noises. I am not making this up. Reply off-list, please, to avoid offending the dog and parakeet contingents. Thanks, K@ Kat Nagel, MasterWork Consulting Services Technical writing / Editing / Document design / Research "Knowledge only scratches at Truth, and Enlightenment is meaningless without a compassionate lap to enjoy it on." ___Alfred Birnbaum & Riku Kanmei, in <> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Grosshans Subject: Software I am the Technical Editor for a group of Technical Communicators. I am trying to find ways to lighten the load for these writers. One way would be for me to become the group indexer. Right now the writers are doing their own indexes, in a hurry at the end of each project, using the application (FrameMaker usually). Sometimes they have to do the index a chapter at a time because each chapter is sent off separately to be translated. The time constraints get bizarre sometimes. It's hard enough editing one chapter at a time but doing the index is worse. I am about to suggest that we buy Macrex or something else so that the indexes can be done independently from the projects. I would like to hear your professional opinions. Does this sound like the right way to go and what software do you prefer? TIA, Janice jmg@kodak.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: use of symbols at beginning of index >> At 04:08 PM 1/7/97 +1100, Jon and Glenda wrote: >> I indexed a book for beginners on English grammar etc, and decided to put >> symbols at the beginning so that if someone wanted to find out about, say, >> an ellipsis, they didn't have to know the name, but could look up the >> symbol. >> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:00:58 -0800, Sonsie said: S> This is a wonderful idea, and I'm sorry the editor didn't deem it of S> sufficient usefulness to retain. The best example of this I've ever seen is the "Programming Perl" book by O'Reilly & Associates. The index starts like this: The first part of this index lists symbols beginning with non-alphabetic characters. Since the sort order of these characters isn't ingrained in us the way the alphabet is, it is summarized below from left to right: ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / : ; < = > ? @ [ \ ] ^ _ ` { | } ~ For symbols consisting of a special character followed by an alphabetic (like @ARGV or -w), look under the alphabetic character. [... symbols starting with !] [... symbols starting with "] ... [start of A section] -A file test operator -a command line switch abbreviations ... -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 I didn't accept it. I received it. --Richard Allen, National Security Advisor to President Reagan, explaining the $1000 in cash and two watches he was given by two Japanese journalists after he helped arrange a private interview for them with First Lady Nancy Reagan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:14:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net I forwarded the STEALTH note back to its ISP, with the following text: >This is abusive, unsolicited e-mail to a private mailing list. Please >encourage your subscriber to refrain from this sort of posting. Thank >you. I sent my note to the following addresses: abuse@ican.net, webmaster@ican.net, and postmaster@ican.net. The abuse address bounced back as unknown, so the whole ISP is probably nothing but a spam factory, although their Web site (http://www.ican.net/) doesn't look too bad. I recommend that everyone who is concerned or annoyed forward the entire posting, making sure to include all headers (that is, do a FORWARD, not a cut-and-paste) to webmaster@ican.net. As someone else here mentioned, make sure you don't reply or forward to the entire list of other annoyed people! Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:35:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: use of symbols at beginning of index At 03:03 PM 1/8/97 -0500, Karl E. Vogel wrote: > The best example of this I've ever seen is the "Programming Perl" book >by O'Reilly & Associates. The index starts like this: Karl, this is a gem, which I have saved for future reference. Thanks for posting the sort order for symbols, which I had never known. And the organization of the index, IMO, is vastly improved by having that headnot and also having the As start with the symbols in correct position. This is so helpful to users! Thinking back on my lengthy experience with trying to find operators and such in computer books, I realize what a godsend some standard format would have been. Ordering of symbols is definitely NOT intuitive, nor is figuring out the location of a term such as -a (an operator in a DOS statement). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:35:48 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Software At 02:04 PM 1/8/97 -0500, Janice Grosshans wrote: >I am about to suggest that we buy Macrex or something else so that the >indexes can be done independently from the projects. I would like to >hear your professional opinions. Does this sound like the right way to >go and what software do you prefer? Janice, I think using indexing software would help considerably. But what might be even more important is to have one group member who is a trained indexer, into whose hands you can put the entire job (along with the great software). You mention elsewhere in your post that you were considering becoming the group indexer; I think that is a fine idea. Macrex or Cindex is really only as good as the operator...and a trained indexer will really be able to make those babies do wheelies. The time saved at the end stages of your projects will more than make up for the money spent on good software and training for whoever is going to do the work. And having ONE indexer (or more than one, but all operating as a group and from the same set of organizing principles, style rules, etc.) will greatly speed things up and improve the final product. Good luck to you in this endeavor. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:13:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net >> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:16:14 -0600, you said: I> Just asking. What is this long list of addressess and why is it on INDEX-L? Some twit is doing some bigtime spamming. I already forwarded his message to "postmaster@ican.net" with a polite request to stop it. If replying to the postmaster doesn't help, then the best way to deal with this is to just dump the messages when they come in. Replying is futile; people stupid enough to send that type of message don't have a clue that the Internet doesn't exist purely as a means to their ends. Mail-bombing the sender is a really BAD idea because two things can happen: 1. The Internet provider ends up getting so swamped with mail that they either shut down their mailhost or disable mail delivery, which hurts more people than just the TIQ (twit in question), and 2. The TIQ sometimes knows just enough about mail to, say, forward all replies to an innocent third party, which in turn hammers his or her machine into the ground. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 Guns don't kill people. Driving 40 in the fast lane kills people. --seen on a bumper sticker ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:37:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net Karl E. Vogel wrote: > Mail-bombing the sender is a really BAD idea because two things can happen: Agreed. I hope I didn't give the impression that I was calling for mail bombing in my last post. Mailing the posts back to the _postmaster_, not the original sender, is what I, like Karl, suggested. (Just feeling a little paranoid and thought I'd clear it up :-). Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Indexing rates I STRONGLY DISAGREE with Dick Evans (nothing personal, Dick. I usually agree with what you post) that the going rate for manuals is $3-$3.50. I think that is the high end for academic books. My husband is charging $3.50-$3.75 for textbooks these days with much success. I charge $5-$6 per page for technical manuals and business books or about $45-$50/hour. This is no more than tech writers are paid. Obviously, I'm doing high-end indexing and not quick-and-dirty. There are clients who don't hire me, but I have enough clients who do. Perhaps it makes a difference that I live on the east coast. As for negotiating, you can let the client know that you're willing to negotiate. Ask how the client is paying: out of pocket, a grant, the press? Say "I think $4 is fair. Can you afford that? Since this is my first job, I'm willing to negotiate." I've had many clients come back to me after a bid to say, The author will only pay x. Whether an experienced indexer accepts that money is a different matter. I do not try to get every job: I can't afford to take jobs that don't pay enough. Yes, there is always some gnome out in Montana working for $10/hour. As far as I'm concerned, the gnome can corner the $10 market entirely. Don't forget that freelancers need hundreds of thousands in savings in order to retire. The original question: Is $4/page high? For academic books, yes. These books do not usually make a profit, and people work for very low rates. I've posted my take on the going rates in different market sectors to the MA ASI Web site. I know I already mentioned the site during Christmas, but it's quicker to list it again than to apologize for repeating myself. If you want to look at it, Julia, it's http://www.tiac.net/users/marisol/susanh.htm Regards, Susan Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Software At 12:35 PM 1/8/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Macrex or Cindex is really only as good as the operator...and a trained >indexer will really be able to make those babies do wheelies. Using either package is an excellent idea, but to get full benefit you really need to learn one and keep in practice. That works best if you have a "designated indexer" who does all the indexes and uses the indexing software regularly. Better to have one person creating six indexes per year than six people only doing one each per year. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:16:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing rates Julia Marshall asks about indexing rates, especially indexing from a typewritten manuscript. Julia, you were fortunate not to get the indexing job under those conditions. You would have had a headache with it and probably would have lost money. I had a much smaller job where changes were made on the final proofs requiring a lot of extra work. Fortunately, the contract stated that any changes would incur an additional charge based on an hourly rate. Better luck next time. I, too, am trying to market myself. No easy job. If there are any indexers out there who could use some help, I am available. Thelda Bertram ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:28:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Indexing rates At 05:13 PM 1/8/97 -0500, you wrote: > I STRONGLY DISAGREE with Dick Evans (nothing personal, Dick. I usually >agree with what you post) that the going rate for manuals is $3-$3.50. I >think that is the high end for academic books. My husband is charging >$3.50-$3.75 for textbooks these days with much success. I charge $5-$6 per >page for technical manuals and business books or about $45-$50/hour. I'll really be glad when the ASI rate survey comes out. I keep hearing discrepancies like this, but I *never* see one first hand. I do about 50 titles per year with several of the biggest software names in the business and my *top* rate is $3.75 per page. Just last week I was approached to do a Windows NT LAN Administrator's Guide for $2.00 per page. (I refused.) What do you mean by "technical manuals"? I'm talking about general-purpose computer books you would find on the shelves of Barnes & Noble. Are you perhaps dealing with highly technical, corporate stuff? I don't doubt you are getting those rates (more power to you) but I do doubt that they are representative. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Indexing rates >What do you mean by "technical manuals"? I'm talking about general-purpose >computer books you would find on the shelves of Barnes & Noble. Are you >perhaps dealing with highly technical, corporate stuff? I don't doubt you >are getting those rates (more power to you) but I do doubt that they are >representative. > Dick, I think you have hit on the difference here: Manuals published by computer companies vs. technical books published by publishing companies. I do find that computer companies (in the Boston area) pay much more money than publishing houses. I've had three clients this season offer $45/hr before asking my fee: 2 computer companies and a financial institution. Computer companies around here are used to paying that much for freelance writing and editing. I only have one publishing client who pays $5/page, a business book publisher (New York). But I've also gotten a number of publishers to pay more than usual (3.50-3.75), because I didn't give ground. My point in publicizing my fees is not to pat myself on the back, but to let other indexers know that such fees are possible and that tough negotiating does help, in the hopes that everyone will raise their fees. Otherwise, we're all undercutting each other. I have the feeling that a lot of indexers are very timid about negotiating. For example, you have to raise fees every year to keep up with inflation, but I've spoken with indexers who find that so difficult that they only raise fees with new clients and not with long-term clients. So ...January is a good time to let your clients know that your fees have gone up, even just 5%. I don't think any client will drop a good indexer because the rate went from $2.50 to $2.60 or 2.65. Just my $.02 worth. Susan Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. I am a dedicated CINDEX user who is going to be teaching an indexing class soon. In order to present indexing software fairly and objectively to the students, I would like to hear from people who have used both CINDEX and MACREX, as well as other dedicated indexing software (including CINDEX for Mac), with some discussion of pros, cons, and similarities of each. I know that Linda Fetters wrote that booklet called "A Guide to Indexing Software," which I have. I would just like to get others' opinions, too, so if you have the time, please drop me a line. Thanks. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Data pens Hello, everyone, Recently an ad appeared in one of the genealogy groups I subscribe to for something called a data pen, a very small scanner. The user uses the pen as though underlining words or phrases while the data pen using OCR software reads it into the computer. I did a quick search on Yahoo and Dejanews and there seem to be three brands: Iris, Primax, and Rivax (the last two sound like some sort of medicine, no?), but not a lot of comments or evaluations. Have any of you ever heard anything about these data pens? (They seem to cost $299 list, but $265 through a couple of businesses). I have often thought it is quicker to type small amounts of text rather than scanning them because of the delay between scanning and having the text pop up on the computer screen, but then I have an old handheld scanner (Caere's Typist, which would not recognize one line or several words anyway, only several lines at a time) and an old computer too. But if the scanned text with a data pen appeared "instantly" without a delay of several seconds, well, then am curious as to whether anyone thinks using a data pen might speed indexing up, esp. proofreading (one of my greatest weaknesses). Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:56:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jane Odland Organization: Sirs, Inc. Subject: SOFTWARE Good morning everyone, I am an indexer of articles for an educational publisher, SIRS, Inc., and new to the discussion group. I have had no exposure to indexing software and would like to know if there are any PC-based programs which would index articles according to Library of Congress subject headings. Any information will be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jane Odland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:02:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Data pens At 08:59 AM 1/9/97 -0500, Sam Andrusko wrote: >I have often thought it is quicker to type small amounts of text >rather than scanning them because of the delay between scanning and having >the text pop up on the computer screen, but then I have an old handheld >scanner (Caere's Typist, which would not recognize one line or several >words anyway, only several lines at a time) and an old computer too. But >if the scanned text with a data pen appeared "instantly" without a delay >of several seconds, well, then am curious as to whether anyone thinks >using a data pen might speed indexing up, esp. proofreading (one of my >greatest weaknesses). Sam, at first glance this sounds like a great idea...and it might well be, if you are working on a revision of an index, or an index for a second edition of a book with a good first-edition index. You could then import, intact, a number of lines of index text. However most of my work is first indexes, and since a lot of those entries must be flipped or otherwise edited, I can't see myself using such a pen on the typeset pages and finding it very useful. But that may just be me. (I'd sure love to have such a thing for other purposes, such as creating a mailing list from a telephone book or grabbing direct quotes from a magazine to import into an article I'm writing.) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:44:12 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: data pens 9 January 1997 I don't have any experience with data pens either, but once did the index to a large bibliography and would have loved to have had a data pen simply to enter all the titles. --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:47:40 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. Cynthia: I have taught indexing using CINDEX (student version), and I found it useful to present information on some of the other software, but inrealistic to try to teach more than one software program in a semester. The students just get the hang of CINDEX and indexing after 8-10 assignments with it (each time they learn new commands and some of the special features). That's just my experience, of course, but I'd caution you to pick one software program and structure the indexing topics to coordinate with lessons on the program commands. Otherwise, I think it can be very confusing for the students (unless we are talking about teaching indexers to use software... my experience is with library science students with little or no indexing background). Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:57:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BethJT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Index Critique I tried sending this yesterday but had it bounced back for some reason. I know this is a little belated but I think it is an important issue. Thanks Beth >>> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:37:20 -0800, Sonsie said: S>> I apologize most sincerely for my lapse in judgment that occurred when I S>> publicly critiqued a book's index and also publicly responded to the person S>> who requested the book's exact title. I had no intent to harm; I wrote my S>> comments from the perspective of a user (and only secondarily as an S>> indexer). and then Karl E. Vogel said: > Sorry, but I have to jump in here. We need something like a "hold harmless" > clause for this list. I think it's quite appropriate to discuss whether or > not an index works for the user. I must agree with Karl and Sonsie. It is appropriate to critique published work on the list. Sonsie made specific and constructive criticisms of the index in question (ie, difficulties with terminology and not enough double posting). Which is a far better than saying something like: "this is a rotten index" or "you are a rotten indexer" without specific comments. Every writer (and that includes indexers) must be able to separate written word from self and criticism of work from criticism of self _and_ to withstand a little honest criticism. If we can't honestly and openly critique indexes here then were can this happen? Oh we could be a tiny bit more tactful if you want but this is definitely an appropriate place for such discussions to take place. Elizabeth Tudor (aka Troublemaker Extraodinaire) Tudor Indexing Houston, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:55:13 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: [DLWITT@alex.stkate.edu: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc.] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: DLWITT@alex.stkate.edu (unknown) To: becohen@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. Date: Thu, 09 Jan As an indexing instructor here in St. Paul I entirely agree with Barbara Cohen about trying to teach more than one indexing program in a semester. It is simply too difficult to try to get students to absorb indexing principles, learn a new software program, and create a thorough index, which is the main assignment in my syllabus. It is a dilemma, because I think both Macrex and Cindex are both good programs and both deserve attention. What I do is teach and demonstrate Cindex, since that is what I know best. I have a copy of the Macrex demo loaded in the computer lab, with manual available on reserve. (Obviously Cindex is available too). When I sense some of my students are very computer literate, I urge them to try both demos. I accept the final assignment in either program. I also require my students to subscribe to Index-L for the duration of the course. If any discussion occurs about either program or other programs on the list, I generally incorporate it into that week's class discussion. At the beginning of each term I generally do a literature search for any indexing issues that have come up, especially any new software developments. Hope this helps. Diana Witt (dlwitt@alex.stkate.edu) -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages >> On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:06:43 -0800, >> "Indexer's Discussion Group" said: W> I'm in the process of pulling material together to do a home page and have W> several questions to ask. I'd appreciate comments on the following from W> anyone who has already gone through the process. W> 1) Which books do you recommend to use as a text? I use these quite a bit: "Running a perfect Web site with Apache", ISBN 0-7897-0745-4. This one is more for someone who's going to run their own Web server on a Unix machine, but it has LOTS of stuff on HTML editors, Netscape extensions, etc. Comes with CD. "HTML and CGI Unleashed", published by Sams. This is definitely for the person creating the web page (as opposed to the system administrator). Also comes with CD. W> 2) Did you start out with just one page--or several pages linked together? I started with one simple page, but I use a CGI script to generate my home page so I can display different things to people depending on where they're located or who they are. I have much tighter control over both output and system security this way. W> 3) Did you use a text editor or a word processing program to do this? Text editor. VI to be exact. W> 4) Which would you recommend? I like text editors because they don't get underfoot. I'd suggest starting out with an editor to get familiar with the underlying HTML that makes up your page. This definitely gives you the finest level of control. After you start getting sick of typing HTML tags, consider getting something intended specifically for Web pages, like HotDog. You still see the tags and you have great control over the output, but it automates all sorts of stupid things that a text editor won't. W> 5) Also, is it proper in a home page to include links to outside interests? Your page, your call. If you think it's worth the time, you could separate outside links into "Professional" and "Other". -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 The majority and I have both had the good sense to avoid each other as much as possible. We have both benefitted. --James Boe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:53:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Critiques, chats and Index Quality: A final Word (long) All - This is just a note to set some things straight, and not to start and/or prolong a flame war. First, I want to commend Sonsie for the thoughtfulness and gentleness of her response to the brouhaha about critiquing indexes and indexers. I am sure that it was not all that easy to write or to post. Very gracefully done. Second, I would like to add a point or two to my original posting about critiquing indexes. Some respondents have expressed an apparent indifference to public criticism, seeming to take the position that all criticism merely is an opportunity to improve one's work. No tender-ego wimps, they! I disagree. The question here seems not to be how one deals with criticism, but whether Index-L should be a forum for specifically-directed criticism of an identified colleague's work. I don't believe that it should, because I don't believe that we have any way objectively to assess a given index as good or bad work. (Before you flare, please read on.) Indexing is a creative act, and we all have different views of how to measure quality. An index that doesn't work for one reader will work beautifully for another reader with a different viewpoint and different subject sophistication. The best indexes doubtless combine balance, and harmony, and functionality, but we must be very careful when making public judgments. There are as many excellent indexes as there are readers who like them, and as many poor indexes as there are readers who are frustrated by them. And they all can be the same index! Perhaps we can say that, for a given index, if a very large percentage of readers find it useful and a very small percentage of readers find it frustrating, it is a good index. Functionality, not aesthetics, probably is the ultimate criterion. But functionality alone gives us a farm tractor. Aesthetics alone gives us the Pieta. Combine them and one has Chartres. One probably should strive to keep the useful/frustrating ratio as high as possible but that is virtually impossible to quantify. As the Marshall of France said in Henry V, when told how close the English were camped, "Who has measured the distance?" Experience has shown that certain established guidelines are likely to be helpful in writing a useful, functional index and therefore that is what we teach in indexing classes and what we read in indexing texts. But we really have very little feedback as to the measurable usefulness of any index because so much depends upon the individual user, and criteria for measurement are so difficult to establish (although work has been done on this). People either like it or they don't. If the editor likes it we are likely to get another assignment. If the editor doesn't like it we can argue that he/she is an idiot, and that the index is wonderful, but we are unlikely to win. But whether or not a colleague likes an index seems to me to be quite beside the point. In this respect indexing differs from, say, civil or aeronautical engineering. In these disciplines poor work tends to be self-revealing: the building collapses or the airplane crashes. But we really must remember that these things that we are taught, these indexing guidelines, are just that: Guidelines. They are not hard-and-fast, God-given Commandments that can be broken only at the indexer's peril, even if they appear in official USDA courses and/or in some of our revered indexing textbooks. We really don't want to lose ourselves in arguments over how many cross-references can dance on the head of a pin. So, to expose another indexer to public criticism simply because one is personally uncomfortable with his/her index seems unwarranted unless there is some compelling reason to do so. We must be very clear about criticism on Index-L. None of us probably would write directly to a colleague's editor saying that in our opinion the index in question was quite poor. We recoil from that, don't we? But many of us seem to have no problem with criticizing a colleague's work in a public forum to which many editors (clients) doubtless subscribe. This is not a question of bruised egos; it is a very pragmatic question of personal integrity, and of not gratuitously placing a colleague in any jeopardy merely because we feel a need to express a personal opinion about the manner in which he or she is earning a living. It is not difficult to imagine that an editor might have second thoughts about hiring a freelancer whose work has just been trashed by a jury of his/her peers. We should not arrogate to ourselves the right publicly to pronounce judgement on a colleague's work and then simply step away, taking no responsibility for the possible consequences of our actions. I accept criticism from editors, of course, but this is part of the iterative process of working cooperatively with clients. I have no problem with discussing/arguing about an index over a platter of pasta, coffee, and two or three tortoni. But I do not expect it to arise spontaneously from another indexer, for no special reason, in a public venue. It seems to me that there remains much leeway for legitimate criticism on Index-L. Not by saying "Mary Smith's index to The Physics of Condensed Matter (Wiley, 1998) is a dog," but by using carefully screened, anonymous examples (even citing specific entries if necessary). I cannot imagine what useful lessons would be lost by ensuring that specific titles, publishers, and indexer's names were omitted. But keep this in mind: Obviously ludicrous blunders are easy to poke fun at, but there is little tutorial value in this. The really difficult problems are likely to be much beyond simple, casual, online nitpicking, and would require careful and thoughtful analysis IN CONCERT WITH the indexer who wrote them. We really have no idea whatsoever (i.e., not a clue) of the constraints under which the subject index was written. There are no qualifying disclaimers at the head of an index. We really don't know if it is a blunder or a magnificent adaptation to difficult editorial/time constraints. The index in question might well be an example of the best professional work done under impossible circumstances, and should be used as an object lesson in indexing classes. We can't tell from the outside looking in. Many, many indexers have complained bitterly (and legitimately) about how their careful work was mutilated before it ever saw light at the back of the book. Do we really know that the index we are critiquing is the index that was written? Should we be criticizing the indexer, the editor, or the press? Is the indexer the villain or the victim? That is the problem when one criticizes an index with attribution. And it is terribly unfair. How can an indexer possibly restore his/her reputation after being trashed on Index-L for a printed index that might not be at all like what originally was written, or that was done under impossible constraints? Should we post plaintive notes saying "Gosh, folks, please don't blame me! It's not my fault"? Should we publicly argue, getting right down to a bitter cat-fight that would be, to put it mildly, highly unprofessional? Should we bite our lips and resent the criticism, thus damaging long-standing friendships? Should we heap ashes on our heads and say "You're right! that was a poor index! Thanks!"? Would any of us want to defend ourselves by publicly blaming a client? How many of these brave critics would want to be placed in such a no-win situation, where you're damned if you say nothing, and damned if you say "Yes, but....."? So much for the omniscient critic. By the way, this also is true for the so-called "professional" reviews that one sees in, for example, The Indexer. And now, another subject: I believe that much of what is said on Index-L should be said off-list. Not because I am a curmudgeon, or because people "are not allowed" to express personalities in their postings. Not at all. But there is a definite sense of professional focus and.... well.... let's say professional dignity that I believe is essential for freelancers who expect to be taken seriously. That is our professional persona. It seems to me that there should be some irreducible reticence, some sense of privacy, that is important to all professionals (and really to all people). If we go around chatting, rechatting and re-rechatting about cats and views in a professional forum like Index-L we surely risk appearing, if not rather frivolous, at least unfocussed.. Not because we love cats or beautiful vistas, but because we are overdoing a good thing in the wrong place, and to some observers that might have certain implications regarding our judgment. That kind of warm, cuddly "My kittycat loves to surf the net. She is on http://www.meow.com. And this Christmas we decorated the tree with hairballs! Gee!" is perfectly appropriate in a chat room or other venue such as IRC (Internet Relay Chat). The point isn't to stifle personal expression or friendly conversation; rather, it is to maintain some sense of restraint and appropriateness lest we all drown in a sea of Marshmallow Fluff. Ah, well... Best wishes, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:14:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Index Critique >If we can't honestly and openly critique indexes here then were can this >happen? Oh we could be a tiny bit more tactful if you want but this is >definitely an appropriate place for such discussions to take place. I would like to add that even if we take into account that an indexer might have been under some crazy constraints imposed by the publisher, if the resulting index is flawed, the criticism is still valid. If a given index is hard to use, it's hard to use, regardless of the reasons it was done that way. I for one appreciated reading Sonsie's detailed explanation of what she didn't like about it (breaches of etiquette, if any, aside). Usability of indexes and diversity of readers is very pertinent here. On a related topic, computer manuals take a lot of criticism/ribbing for the quality of their indexes. But have we ever identified other genres/fields that are notorious for their bad indexes? I'd like to suggest bird books. That is, field guides, bird finders, etc. I'd love to hear from any of you who've indexed some, because I'd like to find some with really good indexes. :-) Actually, the Audubon, the National Geographic, and the new Stokes field guides all have good indexes. (BTW, the _Stokes Field Guide to Birds: Eastern Region_ is everything I ever wanted in a field guide to birds: multiple photos [plumage and age comparisons], detailed blurb, and range map all on the same page! Color tab indexed. 471 pp. $17.) Many other birding books I've looked at have terrible indexes (strings of 50 or more locators), even though the books are otherwise excellent. Chirp, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:19:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. I recently taught a six-week course for beginners (adult ed through UWM). I decided not to do *any* software demos, because I thought it best to use what little time I had to concentrate on principles of indexing. I think the tools are great, but they're peripheral to "how to." I did describe various programs for them. My 2 cents. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:18:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Chat on cats etc. After reading a number of stern reprimands, I feel rather worried that I have compromised my professional credibility by contributing to the cat-chat (which I think started during the holiday season, when most people feel more relaxed and informal). Perhaps I need to point out that I *am* a serious indexer and not some frivolous airhead; although not a regular contributor to Index-L, preferring to delurk only occasionally, I have on previous occasions attempted to make some comments on hard-core indexing subjects, which I hoped would be appropriate and helpful. May I quote Horace (65-8 BC)? 'Misce stultitiam consiliis brevem:/ Dulce est desipere in loco.' ('Mix with your sage counsels some brief folly. In due place to forget one's wisdom is sweet.') Christine Shuttleworth London ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:50:31 -0500 Reply-To: riomaro@riofrancos.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Organization: Riofrancos & Co. Indexes Subject: Re: Data pens I've actually tried to use a data pen for indexing, i.e. to "read" text for index entries directly into a document, which I then "read" into Cindex. But the experiment did not last long. The scanning pens have tricky handling characteristics, and the OCR software they come bundled with is less accurate than top-of-the line software. Then there was the distraction of going from paper to computer monitor, and the additional task of entering the page number manually. It makes more sense, if you're going to scan, to use a good flatbed scanner with ADF (automatic document feeder). I've scanned and OCR'd many books, which I then convert into Word documents. The results, though far from perfect, are definitely usable, and the technology is constantly improving. Once converted into Word, I use a dedicated Word add-on program to copy and paste the terms and phrases I want into an index document, which I then read into Cindex. Of course, far better than scanning is to get DTP files for the book from the publisher, and then convert those files into Word. Having the entire book in your "memory" (RAM, that is) and literally at my fingertips gives me an "X-ray" vision of the book. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: Sam Andrusko Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Critiques, chats and Index Quality In-Reply-To: <199701100353.WAA34728@rs8.loc.gov> If I recall correctly, whoever first posted the comments about the poor index did not indicate the name of the indexer was given in the book nor did the poster actually give the name of the indexer (and perhaps the first poster had no idea the indexer was on the list either). So, no one said "Mary Smith's index to ... is a dog" at all. The person who complained about possibly embarrassing said indexer and how unfair it was of the first poster to do this is the one who made the identity of the indexer a subject of interest to some (certainly not to me). I think it would have been best if the second person (who complained) had posted a private post to the first poster. Otherwise, I doubt if anyone on this list would have run out to get a copy of a computer book just to see an example of what someone considered a poor index, esp. because (as best I recall) the comments were of a very general nature. But after the fuss over embarrassing the indexer, well, am sure the curiosity of some has been aroused enough to go browse the computer section of their local Crown, Borders, etc. So, if the indexer has been embarrassed at all it has been by his/her supposed defender, not the first poster. I see nothing wrong with making (good or bad) general comments or even specific criticisms of a particular index one has come across (and I agree one should never name the indexer or indicate it is published in the book). I do not think the first poster ever intended to embarrass or point a finger at a particular individual. When it comes to most flames and fights on internet, I think that 99% of them could be avoided if the "offending" poster is given the benefit of the doubt (that is, he did not intend to offend), but if someone is truly offended, he should first respond **privately** to the alleged offender and voice his concerns. Otherwise, people start responding to posts-on-posts-on-posts and by the 3rd "generation" of posts, you are far, far away from the original post and everything has been distorted beyond belief. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:51:44 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: Data pens Maro Riofrancos said: >Once converted into Word, I use a dedicated Word add-on program to copyand paste the terms and phrases I want into an index document, which I then read into Cindex. Maro, Could you tell me what the name of that dedicated Word program. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Critiques, Cats, and Index Quality: A Final Word(???) (somewhat long) While I agree that INDEX-L should be strictly professional, there is room for an occasional lapse into "chat" attached to a legitimate indexing query or comment. As I was made aware during another one of these "professionalism" arguments on INDEX-L, different types of professionals talk about a great many things under a great many different circumstances. Indexers are no different, except that we are not always in the board room around the shiny mahogany table with the Board of Directors. If we were, I doubt that we would talk about cats...we would discuss our product, indexes. As someone so aptly said in reply when criticism of the chat thread came up, there was nothing stopping anyone who objected to the thread to posting something more related to indexing. Yes, much of what is said on INDEX-L could be said off-list; there is even the possibility of setting up a "chat" group of indexers. Has anyone investigated this? I am afraid, however, that such an alternative list might be damaging to INDEX-L, which, let's face it folks, is pretty nice, chat warts and all. I think we would all be surprised by what would be lost if this happened. As for index quality, this is a point that I have made in the past--there are indexing standards for quality control, fueled by classification theory. Indexing IS an art, as the title of G. Norman Knight's book, Indexing, the Art of, suggests. But indexing is also firmly planted with both feet in knowledge classification theory. I suppose it wouldn't hurt even the most experienced indexer to do some sort of "continuing education" by reading about classification theory once in a while. May I suggest, for starters, Subject Catalogues: Headings and Structures, by E. J. Coates (London: The Library Association, 1988). Although this is geared toward library catalogs (an Americanism there), it has great pertinence to indexing of all types. In addition, an occasional re-reading of whatever standards you and most of your clients prefer might not be a bad idea, either. Most publishers don't follow standards per se, but use The Chicago Manual of Style rules, however. An acquaintance with the standards of a profession is necessary, though, regardless of the profession. Perfection is rarely reached in anything, but we can strive for the best possible index for the greatest possible number of users/readers. Sort of like approaching infinity--you can get closer and closer, but you never really get there but can keep trying... Have a good day. At 10:53 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >All - > >This is just a note to set some things straight, and not to start and/or >prolong a flame war. > > >I believe that much of what is said on Index-L should be said off-list. Not >because I am a curmudgeon, or because people "are not allowed" to express >personalities in their postings. Not at all. But there is a definite sense >of professional focus and.... well.... let's say professional dignity that I >believe is essential for freelancers who expect to be taken seriously. That >is our professional persona. It seems to me that there should be some >irreducible reticence, some sense of privacy, that is important to all >professionals (and really to all people). > >Bob Richardson > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:09:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown <104571.560@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Cindex vs. Cindex Barbara Cohen and Diana Witt speak to the steep learning curve involved in mastering the Cindex and Macrex programs. I agree with one qualification. I am currently using the Macintosh version of Cindex and believe if it had been available when I began learning Cindex my learning curve would have been dramatically reduced. The Macintosh version of Cindex is fully implemented in a graphical user interface with pull-down menus and adherence to accepted standards for creating special typographical effects such as italics and accented characters. Even better, the index is presented in a WYSIWYG format so one no longer has to guess if a word is both in italics and bold. Best of all, the authors have taken advantage of available memory management techniques to retain large indexes within memory which results in impressive speed on search operations, sorting, cross-reference validation, etc. (With my current RAM configuration of 24MB I should be able to keep an 80,000 entry index memory resident and still be able to run my other applications.) There is still a learning curve, but as with all things in the Macintosh (and Windows) world, there is a great deal of learning spillover from other operating system-compliant products. Craig Brown The Last Word LastWord@CompuServe.Com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:27:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Chat (my last word, anyway) Folks, do you have any idea how much space is being taken up on Index-L chatting about how there should be no chat on the list? I may be the only person who finds this amusing, I realize. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA Warning label on a package of Fisherman's Friend (R) throat lozenges: "Not meant as a substitute for human companionship."--Tom Witte ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:09:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Critiques, chats and Index Quality: A final Word (long) In-Reply-To: <199701100353.WAA15992@maildeliver0.tiac.net> As Bob said, beating a dead horse this may be, but I finally must speak. I typed and deleted a number of replies during the chat/no chat discussions, and finally decided that since I'm no longer Master of the Universe, the decree that Everyone Must Know What I Think and Feel is now null and void. So I just shut up and went into lurk mode. Didn't stay long, though. I read Bob's post carefully, nodding in agreement, changing my mind, reevaluating my ideas and positions, and was quite impressed, until the last half of the last paragraph, where without warning, as a former member of the CatChat/WindowGazer Brigade, I felt again chastised and belittled by the sarcasm of > >That kind of warm, cuddly "My kittycat loves to surf the net. She is on http://www.meow.com. And this Christmas we decorated the tree with hairballs! Gee!" is perfectly appropriate in a chat room or other venue such as IRC (Internet Relay Chat). << I thought about sending this reply to Bob privately, but for several reasons decided not to. If we're going to be polite, careful with our criticisms, and professional at all times, let's just do it. If we're not, let's not just not. But this mixing and matching is getting to be a pain in the youknow. I am a professional. I work when I work, I play when I play. I get my jobs in on time, I charge the correct amount, and I have exchanged photos of myself and my cats with all but one of my clients, who have all said some variation of how nice it is to work with a human for a change. I don't want to work with or for anyone who isn't willing to play Human Being with me. I'll be in lurk mode if anyone wants me. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:14:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Many replys to chat & index criticism Hi folks, I hate to post this, because I realize I'm just adding to the problem I am complaining about. I am really tired of getting posts on these two subjects. I've been on the list about 6 months, and the chat problem is a recurring theme. Seems to me there is more e-mail *about* chat (pro vs. con) than there *is* chat! Please do not take this as personal criticism of those who have been voicing their opinions, which are all valid. I am just asking: is there any practical solution for limiting these threads? Especially the chat controversy; can't we just say, "Been there, done that," and just accept that things have gotten a little out of hand when someone complains? If anyone feels the complainer is out of line, they can contact that person directly, and the rest of Index-L can be free to get on with other topics at hand. Also, let me say that these discussions reflect diverse and thoughtful viewpoints from an obviously intelligent and conscientious group of professionals, and I am not knocking their value as such. It is just that I do not think they should take up so much of the list, esp. the oft-repeated chat topic. Those who wish to reply to this post, please feel free to take my suggestion and reply directly to me. I would be glad to later post a synopsis of replys to the list, after the dust has all settled! ;-) -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:34:33 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Wright-ARCHIVES Subject: Chat - Fisherman's Friend All: I don't know where Hazel gets her Fisherman's Friend (R) packets. I've read (from cover to cover) the one I just hauled out of my bag. They do mention being "specially formulated for ... Icelandic frost and fog conditions" (aside -- is this an indirect reference to recent Index-L discussions?) but no mention of companionship, human or otherwise (aside - my indirect reference to CAT CHAT). Mine are made by Lofthouse in Fleetwood, Lancs. Is there a Floridian variety with more interesting packaging? How about a CHAT thread about what people consume while indexing -- (not 'whilst'; whilst is still just about in current usage in England, but only in the formal written form ie not when chatting) -- and how much / how often. Of more interest to me than indexing rates, as I'm an annual salary wage slave. Our politician Tony Benn (Anthony Wedgewood Benn to his enemies) is notorious for drinking several dozen cups of tea per day -- something like 80. Doctors have commented graphically on the consequent tanning of his stomach lining. I purchase Fisherman's Friend lozenges only rarely -- for actual sore throats - not an addiction. There are various British mints and so forth in metal packaging -- short cylinders a bit like snuff boxes ((snuff bozes? Am I showing my age? Hands up who hasn't seen a snuff box.)) The metal-boxed throat thingies are definitely classier than the paper-wrapped rolls or flimsy paper packets. 'Lozenge' occurs in Poe's "Pit and pendulum" - meaning what I would now call a trapezoid and true Brits call a trapezium ie 4 sides, two parallel and two not; a decapitated (trepanned?) triangle. Other brands of lozenge ARE lozenge-shaped (Vick? My memory fails) but Fisherman's Friend are not: sandy-brown short cylinders (again; anybody got a word for a short cylinder? Ford engines used to come in 'short vs long'. Age showing again, both in content and connectivity.). Happy New Year all 'round. Regards, RIchard @ BBC ---------- From: Indexer's Discussion Group To: Multiple recipients of list IND Subject: Chat (my last word, anyway) Date: 10 January 1997 03:39pm Folks, do you have any idea how much space is being taken up on Index-L chatting about how there should be no chat on the list? I may be the only person who finds this amusing, I realize. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA Warning label on a package of Fisherman's Friend (R) throat lozenges: "Not meant as a substitute for human companionship."--Tom Witte ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:36:31 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Critique v. criticise?? A quiet whinge from across the pond: how is it that some of you in North America seem to be unable to envisage "criticising" things, indexes or otherwise? I can take "critique" as a noun, but is there really any need to use it as a verb, when "criticise" is available? And as for "critiquing" - !! Sorry! Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:00:49 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: terminology In the October '96 issue of The Indexer is a guide to how people "do" indexing (p89-92). On page 90, Barbara Britton writes "I use a ream of good A4 paper..., shoeboxes with cardboard A-Z dividers, biros and a notepad." What is/are "biros" or is it a typo? My Webster's 3d New International Unabridged doesn't have this word. Thought for today: The Marine Corps points out that a paper map with a bullet hole in it is still a map. A computer with a bullet hole in it is better defined as a doorstop. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:40:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: "Biros" I'm glad Lynn Lonergan asked about biros. As Associate Editor of The Indexer and as an American, I, too, asked what it meant when I saw the proofs. I believe that a biro is a ball point pen, like our "Bic" pen. There were other phrases I queried. I'll have to read the published version to see what was done with them. I did manage to get beyond my image of "Off with their heads" when coming across "book guillotine". -nancy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:45:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: "Biros" At 09:40 AM 1/10/97 -0800, Nancy C. Mulvany wrote: >I believe that a biro is a ball point pen, like our "Bic" pen. Come to think of it, there is a brand name of pen called "Biro," with a capital B, that is available here in the U.S. When I saw the article in question, I never even though of this because it was lower-cased and I assumed it was some special indexing accessory that only the British had. :-) >I did manage to get beyond my image of "Off with their heads" >when coming across "book guillotine". This one stopped me cold. It took me awhile to figure out that the author must be talking about a paper cutter. The mental image is, uh, unique. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:51:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: A solution for chatting? > How about a CHAT thread about what people consume while indexing -- (not > 'whilst'; whilst is still just about in current usage in England, but only > in the formal written form ie not when chatting) -- and how much / how > often. Of more interest to me than indexing rates, as I'm an annual salary > wage slave. I have an idea. Rather than starting another chat thread, and all that entails pro and con, how about if everyone who wants to chat about a subject such as this one send replies PRIVATELY OFF LIST to the asker. I keep several group address lists for various purposes, such as people who like funny stuff, and people I work with on projects. I'm suggesting that chat be handled the same way. People who are interested in talking about cats could post a cat chat request, get responses from all the people interested in talking about cats, and then talk off list about it. You would have much more freedom as well to really get into subjects that interest you, and to get to know some of the indexers who share your interests. But without putting it all on Index-L. The chat could go on off list amongst the interested until it dies out or the asker gets tired of taking care of all the responses. It would keep the discussions off of Index-L, and still let everyone who is interested talk about such things. It seems to me that we need to minimize the chat on list, since it generates so much pro-and con discussion and seems to cause so much bad feeling. Jan Wright, who succumbed to one chat posting during the holidays - must have been the eggnog, eh? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:59:14 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: terminology A biro is like what we call a "Bic" pen, I believe. -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:15:09 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: A solution for chatting? Jan writes: >I have an idea. Rather than starting another chat thread, and all that >entails pro and con, how about if everyone who wants to chat about a subject >such as this one send replies PRIVATELY OFF LIST to the asker. This is how the problem is handled on several other lists I subscribe to. Someone posts a suggestion for an off-topic round of chat and invites others to reply privately. Such posts always include a very definitive mention of the fact that the proposed thread is off-topic and therefore that others should ABSOLUTELY not post responses to the list. It works like a charm! Also, for those INDEX-L'ers who are also telecommuting technical communicators, there's a new list called T-TELCOM that focuses on the interests of such folks. There's quite a bit of chat along the lines of "view-out-the-window", "feline co-workers", and other such stuff. Since I'm sure _all_ us indexers ain't telecommuting techcomms, if anyone's interested please feel free to e-mail me privately for subscribing info. Sarah |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | Technical Writing * Developmental Editing * Indexing | | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:30:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Index Critique I misaddressed this post the first time I tried to send it, yesterday, and so I am trying again. I would like to comment more fully on Bill's post of this morning, and several others, but that may take awhile. ============================= Karl E. Vogel said: > >Sorry, but I have to jump in here. We need something like a "hold >harmless" clause for this list. I think it's quite appropriate to discuss >whether or not an index works for the user. And Elizabeth added, >If we can't honestly and openly critique indexes here then were can this >happen? Oh we could be a tiny bit more tactful if you want but this is >definitely an appropriate place for such discussions to take place. Thank you both for opening this discussion. I'd like to know the parameters here as well. If it is okay to write a detailed review of an index in _Keywords_, why is it inappropriate to critique (or praise?) a specific index here on the list? It would be really helpful to have an open discussion about this issue, as it apparently touched a nerve with many people. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:25:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "by way of Sonsie " Subject: ergonomics Hello all, Have any of you used the backless chair with the kneeling pad to work at the computer? What is your opinion if you have. I find that I almost naturally try to imitate that position in any chair and am thinking seriously about purchasing one. I am very short, so sitting in a regular office chair, no matter how much I adjust and pad and add stools still doesn't quite work, and I find myself with an aching back from trying to fit. Thanks Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:25:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "by way of Sonsie " Subject: Indexing Critique (somewhat long) I've stayed out of this posting because everytime I get ready to post something, I find someone has already posted what I planned on saying. But, I do think that this is worth investigating. Although I'm not the greatest at handling criticism (especially the on-the-spot stuff), I'd be the first (or among the first) to admit that I'm not perfect, have made gaffs, and could improve. Who else to point out my areas of weakness than my colleagues. And here in this venue. After all, we post questions that admit our weaknesses, asking for support from you, our colleagues. In a way, this list is a type of informal classroom for many. We learn from each other. I have received criticism of and praise for my indexes. Of course, I prefer the latter, but what do I learn from that except that I'm a perfect indexer and have no room for improvement. :D And when I receive criticism from the author, i think to myself, what does he know. He's just an author and doesn't understand the fine art of indexing.:D Seriously, you are people whose opinions I trust. Not only are you users of indexes, you understand the work that goes into creating them. You also understand the hatchet jobs that can be done. And, I trust that you would not criticize me personally, but offer opinions on the index that could help improve my product. Sonsie's original post didn't attack the index creator, nor did she identify the creator. As someone already mentioned, no one would have even thought to investigate who that indexer was. She didn't trash the indexer or index in an unprofessional way. She commented on what she felt were the inadequacies of the index. I think we are all aware that this was her opinion and not fact set in stone without her prefacing it with, "In my opinion." In short, I think that discussing specific indexes and their qualities is OK, as long as we do it in a professional manner. In my opinion, that means not trashing the author, not trashing the indexing, offering opinions on what could be improved, on what didn't work, what could work, and what did work. And, I think that it might make everyone feel more comfortable if, when an index is being discussed, we keep the name of the indexer anonymous. Perhaps, if wanting to discuss an index directly with the creator, we could email that person privately. Or the indexer in question could email the "critic" with any questions or comments or responses. Just my opinion. Leslie LLF Editorial Services And please forgive any typos or grammatical errors. I'm trying to write this while answering lots of "why" questions. Occasionally I type what I'm saying instead of what I'm thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:25:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Forwarded Posts Leslie is having some difficulty posting to Index-L, and asked me to forward the two posts that appear with her name but with "by way of Sonsie Conroy" appended to the "from" line. Just thought you might want to know... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:08:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: SOFTWARE Indexing software is to indexing as word processing software is to writing. You can put in anything you want and the software helps in rearranging the words. The two major PC-based programs are Cindex and Macrex. Both were designed for back-of-the-book indexes, but I use Cindex to produce periodical indexes with no problems. I assume Macrex will do the same. (When I made my decision between the two programs many years ago it came down to vibes. I vibrate well with Cindex, but I have met many people who swear by Macrex. You may be stuck with using LC subject headings, but, in general, they are frustrating to use with current periodicals, because LC is conservative about changing or adding headings, and may not be responsive to new terminology which appears in articles. Janet Russell Corofin Indexing Services >I have had no exposure to indexing software and would like to know if >there are any PC-based programs which would index articles according >to Library of Congress subject headings. Any information will be >greatly appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:12:42 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: lost address Sorry to post here folks, but I accidentally deleted a message from someone who wanted whatever info I got about indexing in Europe. Was it a Larry maybe? If you're out there, would you write to me off-list again, and I'll send you what I found out? Thanks. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:28:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: ergonomics In-Reply-To: <199701102027.MAA29694@mx2.u.washington.edu> If you have either knee or back problems, DON'T! My husband has one of those kneeling benches at his Mac, and I (with arthritis in knees and hips) can't use it for more than 5 minutes without needing a visit to an orthopod. I'll take my own, ADJUSTABLE typing chair any day (and take it with me whenever I need to use his computer). My husband and daughters -- no arthritis in the bunch -- have no problem with it, however. So whatever you do, TRY it for a long typing session before investing much money. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu CGWeaver@aol.com On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, by way of Sonsie wrote: > Hello all, > Have any of you used the backless chair with the kneeling pad to work at the > computer? What is your opinion if you have. I find that I almost naturally > try to imitate that position in any chair and am thinking seriously about > purchasing one. I am very short, so sitting in a regular office chair, no > matter how much I adjust and pad and add stools still doesn't quite work, and > I find myself with an aching back from trying to fit. > Thanks > Leslie > LLF Editorial Services > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:45:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Chat Redux Redux Redux As one who agrees with Ann ... my 2 cents .... This entire recent brouhaha (shades of the same one a few months ago) is getting boring. This list is not going to serve too much purpose for indexers if we keep this up. Can we somehow limit ourselves and get back to "indexing issues" in the tighter sense of the term. I know everybody has an opinion re chat, opinions on published indexes, whether to, or whether not to .... but .... I really think we've said it all. Let's respect our differences. Please. Before our list loses its effectiveness, and its members. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:21:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Chat Fellow indexers, It is a moot question whether chat, per se, is appropriate. Our listowner has made clear her position. But someone suggested (and I can't find it again so here is my version), when chat becomes a problem (as it will wherever language-endowed humans congregate), and someone complains, will those involved please just accept it as a "people--focus please" sort of statement, such as occurs in business meetings of all kinds? And can the complainers confine their comments to this realm? This would allow us to refocus without these periodic blow-ups. It is a myth that it is possible to post here without personalities showing up. They will and they do. It sounds as if the method of a chat query with private replies might be a good solution to the need for more extended conversation, but this begs the question of the listowner's consent. All of this notwithstanding, it troubles me that some of us now feel that we must apologize for our very human actions of talking to each other. One of the reasons I don't work in an office is I don't do well with office politics--who is seen talking with whom, who laughs at whose jokes, who does or doesn't show emotion, that sort of thing. One person's chat is another person's being human is another person's annoyance. Let's shrug it off and stop accusing each other of being unprofessional over it. My ability to do the job is not reflected in how personable I can be, thank goodness, but a little pleasantness is a fine thing. I really hope we can resolve this cyclical problem. Let's have some new questions! (Or, at least, some new problems.) Sincerely, Victoria Baker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:21:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Index Critique I would echo those who have noted that Sonsie mentioned neither the book title nor the indexer in her original post. It would appear that some of the concerns are in the nature of "who qualified x to criticize or critique y's index?" I think this is a point worth looking at, since there are no editors or peers vetting what is posted to Index-L. I remember Sonsie being asked for the title of the book, on-list. I would ask that next time such requests and information go to private email. When I saw that request I thought, "Oh, no--someone's convinced they know who the indexer is." However, I do believe that it is appropriate to discuss the relative merits of a given index or practice without naming the specific index. Are we not doing that when we ask questions about our own indexes? I see enough really objectionable indexes in the course of my work and reading that I think there is room for improvement. Is not part of the point, or at least the hope, of Index-L to develop professional agreement? If not, and we are not at a virtual water cooler, then what is it we are doing? Just wondering. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:21:47 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Critique v. criticise?? Betty wrote: >...I can take "critique" as a noun, but is there really any need >to use it as a verb, when "criticise" is available? And as for >"critiquing" - !! Interesting question. My Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th ed., which dictionary is frequently used in U.S. publishing as official reference, gives critique, critiqued, and critiquing as forms of a transitive verb, first used in 1751. The noun is characterized as esp. meaning a critical estimate or discussion. When I was in art school, critique was meant to edify, which is why, I believe, people are using that term rather than the term criticize. Based on the discussion of this issue viz. its appropriateness on Index-L, critique vs. criticize seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:52:04 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: rates question Why is it that many authors seem to automatically assume that indexers work for less than $1 per page whereas they seem perfectly willing to pay typists/word processors more? Julia Marshall raised a similar question last week - I have just experienced a situation in which a prospective client felt that an index for a 220-page book would cost between $100-$150! This is the second time this has happened. Eleven years ago I was charging $1.25 a page (and sometimes more) for typing/word processing with light editing. None of my clients even questioned my rates. Are indexers truly the Rodney Dangerfields of the information industry? I'd appreciate your comments! TIA Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:11:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: A solution for chatting? >I have an idea. Rather than starting another chat thread, and all that >entails pro and con, how about if everyone who wants to chat about a subject >such as this one send replies PRIVATELY OFF LIST to the asker. > I think this is a terrific idea. It still brings personal chat to the "workplace," which is humanizing -- but off by the water cooler or coffee machine rather than standing next to someone's desk. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. I use a program that I had developed for me called wINDEX. It's a very good program for someone who doesn't want to invest a large sum of money. Except as noted below, it has all the features you need to be a professional indexer. I don't think most people on the list want to hear what they are, but if you're interested they're described on my Web page. Advantages: It's inexpensive: $129 plus postage It's VERY easy to learn. You can learn it all in an afternoon Disadvantages: You can't index a book of more than 800 pages. It doesn't do sub-subentries very easily. It doesn't sort Greek characters, scientific symbols, etc. It doesn't automatically invert entries. I agree with Carol Roberts that since there is so little classroom time in any course, it's better to help people to develop their indexing judgment. In my course, I spend most of the time doing indexing exercises and going over them line-by-line with lengthy discussions of why the students' entries are good or not. I do describe what indexing software does and does not do, but I don't take the time to teach how to use the software. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Indexing Critique (somewhat long) Last week I attended a catered party at [insert a place you are familiar with here]. I won't mention the caterer's name, but I must tell you that the crab dip was _amazing_ and the grilled asparagus tips were divine. (The dipping sauce was disappointing, however; almost pure olive oil! Really.) The fresh pineapple tidbits were a nice idea, and I won't say that they were exactly _fermented_, but, well, a bit off. All in all I'd say it was a super party, and the fact that the de-caf coffee was in the back bedroom didn't seem to be a big problem for too many people. Almost everybody found what they wanted without having to look in more than 3 or 4 different places. How many people would rush right out to find out who that caterer was, and then hire her? How many would, the next time a party needed catering, go to a little trouble to find out just who I was talking about so as to avoid him? I welcome all private critiques of my indexes; the more detailed the better. If you read a book I indexed and you hated the index, I want to hear about it; that's how I grow. I am not comfortable with comments being posted on INDEX-L unless the list is absolutely closed, indexers only, no current or potential clients reading it (that list would, of course, include other indexers who might want to subcontract work to me). Keeping the name of the indexer anonymous means _nothing_ if my current client recognizes the book title. If some well-known and/or respected indexer on this list points out the inadequacies (even though it is just "an opinion") of my work, it seems to me unlikely that any publisher will want to hire me again. Obviously, this type of commenting on others' work, and recommending--or failing to recommend--other indexers, does happen--but privately, please. Thanks, Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:28:13 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: rates question At 11:52 PM 1/10/97 GMT, Lillian Ashworth wrote: >Julia Marshall raised a similar question last week - I have just >experienced a situation in which a prospective client felt that an index >for a 220-page book would cost between $100-$150! This is the second time >this has happened. Lillian, this almost HAS to be a "private client"--an author or an extremely small publisher who has rarely (if ever) contracted for a professional index. I can't remember the last time I was offered the equivalent of 50 cents per page! Never, actually. The lowest rate I ever got (and that was about 15 years ago, when I started indexing) was $1 a page. And in about 1985, I decided it wasn't worth dragging out the old shoebox and index cards for anything less than $250...no matter how small or easy the job was. (Now that I use Macrex, that lovely word picture no longer applies, but the thought remains the same.) I =have= done indexes for very low rates (sometimes approaching $1 per page) in two situations: once, for a dear friend who had published her first book, and a few times for nonprofit organizations that were publishing a book that needed an index, and I felt as if I were performing a sort of public service by doing it at a reduced rate. But commercial clients? Never! Hold your ground and stick up for reasonable rates. You are worth it! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:34:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Index Critique At 03:21 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I remember Sonsie being asked for the title of the book, on-list. I would >ask that next time such requests and information go to private email. When >I saw that request I thought, "Oh, no--someone's convinced they know who the >indexer is." > I've stayed out of this until now, even though I have felt partly responsible for it. Maybe this will help, or maybe I will just go back to lurking. What I have to say is not for Sonsie; we have exchanged private notes and I know that she indeed thought before posting, even though the results were unexpected. I say this for people who are arguing the "pro" side of the argument that this list is a good place to offer such comments. I am the one who asked. I asked because I thought the index was *mine*! I have done a number of AOL guides for the publisher in question. I usually do them under deadlines that are charitably defined as "challenging." I have never had one word of feedback from anyone who has ever actually used one of them. I have been doing them for so long and am so familiar with the material that I might well have fallen into geekdom and lost touch with newcomers. My worst nightmare is that I have been doing a BAD JOB all this time and that someday I would be exposed as a fraud. I cannot tell you how I felt when suddenly this seemed to be coming true in front of my peers and, perhaps, clients. Certainly, people at the publishing house know who does their AOL guides. I know they follow AOL indexing discussions, perhaps they follow INDEX-L as well. My first reaction was to ask who had done the index. I wanted to know, but I didn't want to know. Instead, I just asked for a clarification of the title, hoping that I could verify from my records whether it was one I had done. Even with the clarification, I still wasn't sure, so I then sent Sonsie a note and determined it was not mine. That, however, was 24 hours later and I literally lost a night's sleep over it. So, speaking as the only person on the list who knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end of such an event, (even though I dodged the bullet) I vote against making a practice of it. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:02:21 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: john reiss Subject: babe in the woods I'm lurking here in the corner because I have just joined the list and am taking the USDA's Basic Indexing course. Fortunately Linda Fetters is guiding me and I have already printed numerous messages from you folks on the list that I think will be invaluable on my journey into the world of indexing (I may have to index my e-mail before too long). If anyone can tell me absolutely what NOT to do while I'm getting started I would appreciate the advice. I don't ask for much more than that right now because I'm gleaning little pearls from the list, and I'm not sure what else I need to ask. Thanks - Becki Reiss ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:51:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Software for Sharp Zaurus A plea which I am forwarding at Hazel Bell's request - replies please to her at 106023.3007@compuserve.com. FROM: HAZEL BELL, [106023,3007] A general SOS please to computer experts, on behalf of my son (Aidan, the singer, not the computer programmer). He has a Sharp Zaurus ZR-5800 and has purchased the Money Manager software. However, he requires the PC to Zaurus data exchange software in order to download the DOS information to the Zaurus. he would like to know of anyone who has a Zaurus that he could use, I think, please. Hazel Bell Hope someone out there can help - TIA. Christine Shuttleworth London ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 05:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Society of Indexers Conference 1997 Announcement of Society of Indexers Conference 1997 Trinity College, Dublin 5-7 September 1997 Dublin is a new venue for the Society's Conference and the Irish group looks forward to welcoming you. We hope to make it a Conference to remember. The 1997 Conference will celebrate 40 years of the Society of Indexers and will include reminiscences of the history of the Society by some of the founder members. The Dublin Conference will have the usual mixture of talks, workshops and Macrex/Cindex sessions, with an international forum on indexing past and future. The Conference will open on the Friday evening with a reception and a dinner. A general session on the Sunday morning will cover Society business and will bring the weekend to a close. The Conference will be held at Trinity College, which lies at the heart of Dublin city. Its magnificent buildings date from the 17th century and its beautiful 20-hectare campus comprises fine squares and gardens. Fees: (in pounds sterling) Resident SI members 170/182 (depending on standard of accommodation) Non-resident SI members 109 Resident non-SI members 190 Non-resident non-SI members 129 Non-returnable registration fee of 20 pounds per person. These fees apply to all bookings paid in full by 1st May 1997. After that date it may be necessary to make a supplementary charge. Non-residential fees include coffee, tea and all meals except breakfast. Non-members of the Society are very welcome to attend. The supplement of 20 pounds will be refunded if they join the Society during the conference. Please make cheques payable to Society of Indexers Conference (1997). If you prefer to pay in dollars please contact the Society's Treasurer, Betty Moys (email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk). For a booking form (on which you should state whether you require a single or double room or have any special dietary requirements) or with any other queries, please contact: Helen Litton 45 Eglinton Rd Donnybrook Dublin 4 Republic of Ireland Tel/Fax 00 353 1 2692214 Message sent to Index-L subscribers on 11 January 1997 by Christine Shuttleworth Secretary, Society of Indexers Mermaid House 1 Mermaid Court London SE1 1HL Tel: 44 171 403 4947 Fax: 44 171 357 0903 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 05:39:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Biros Lynn, Nancy and others: Yes, a biro is a ballpoint pen - named after its Hungarian inventor, Laszlo Biro (1900-85). Pronounced by-ro, although no doubt originally beer-o. Still in common use over here as a generic term (like hoover) but, with respect to my good friend Barbara Britton, I think 'ballpoint' is now slightly more commonly used. We have Bic pens too - but Bic is also the name of a disposable razor or disposable cigarette lighter, so perhaps to use this term generically could cause confusion. I have a wonderful reference book, The Columbia Guide to Standard American English, which entertainingly explains the many differences between American and British English, but 'biro' isn't in it, though it's in my Collins and Chambers dictionaries. Christine Shuttleworth London ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:01:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Biros Please forgive me if you get this message twice. I got a system message bouncing it back saying it had (or appeared to have been) already sent. I'm not sure I can trust this message so here it is again. Lynn, Nancy and others: Yes, a biro is a ballpoint pen - named after its Hungarian inventor, Laszlo Biro (1900-85). Pronounced by-ro, although no doubt originally beer-o. Still in common use over here as a generic term (like hoover) but, with respect to my good friend Barbara Britton, I think 'ballpoint' is now slightly more commonly used. We have Bic pens too - but Bic is also the name of a disposable razor or disposable cigarette lighter, so perhaps to use this term generically could cause confusion. I have a wonderful reference book, The Columbia Guide to Standard American English, which entertainingly explains the many differences between American and British English, but 'biro' isn't in it, though it's in my Collins and Chambers dictionaries. Christine Shuttleworth London ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:04:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: ergonomics, kneeling chair I have used what I have seen termed a kneeling chair for two years. Mine cost around $50, is upholstered with padding, and is adjustable. As I had been warned by another user, my knees complained for a couple of days, but I slept without back pain the first night after using it. At 12:25 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: >Hello all, >Have any of you used the backless chair with the kneeling pad to work at the >computer? What is your opinion if you have. I find that I almost naturally >try to imitate that position in any chair and am thinking seriously about >purchasing one. I am very short, so sitting in a regular office chair, no >matter how much I adjust and pad and add stools still doesn't quite work, and >I find myself with an aching back from trying to fit. >Thanks >Leslie >LLF Editorial Services > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:22:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ergonomics/AOL problems? In a message dated 97-01-10 18:16:47 EST, you write: << In a message dated 97-01-10 15:29:57 EST, Leslie write: << Have any of you used the backless chair with the kneeling pad to work at the computer? >> Leslie, Yes, I did for a few years. But I gave it up for a traditional, ergonomically correct chair after a while. The main problems were soreness on my knees and upper shins, and getting up quickly. I often found myself sitting on it as I would on a stool, with my feet where my knees should be resting, especially after long hours. Having something to lean back against while you contemplate an entry was something I missed... ;-D It might work better for you, however. Good luck, Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm "An index a day keeps the phone calls away ..., " Jan Wright, Wright Information Indexing Services ---------------------------------------------- PS: This is my 2nd attempt at posting this. Are any other AOL uses having problems posting messages to Index-L? Everytime I use the bitnet address, I get my message returned as "Host unknown".... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:55:17 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: terminology - Biros In-Reply-To: <852917199.928094.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> Dear Lynn and others, Perhaps I can redeem myself (slightly) by explaining that Biros, now often thought of without the initial capital, are indeed ball pens. They were, as I recollect, more or less the first such to appear in England after WW2. The adoption of the trade name parallels the adoption here of Hoovers to mean any kind of vacuum cleaner. Hope that helps! By the way, someone has already explained to me the matter I wrote about this afternoon. Thanks again, Maryann. Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:06:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: rates question In-Reply-To: <199701102353.PAA19396@mx4.u.washington.edu> "Writer's Market" may be partially to blame. The 1997 edition, p.55, under book publishing, says: Indexing: $20-$40/hour; charge higher hourly rate if using a computer index program that takes fewer hours. Also can charge $2-6/indexable page; 40-70 cents per line of index OR A FLAT FEE OF $250-$500 DEPENDING ON LENGTH. [my emphasis]. I wouldn't quarrel with any of the quoted rates except the last sentence. Some education needed there... Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu CGWeaver@aol.com On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Lillian Ashworth wrote: > Why is it that many authors seem to automatically assume that indexers work > for less than $1 per page whereas they seem perfectly willing to pay > typists/word processors more? > > Julia Marshall raised a similar question last week - I have just experienced > a situation in which a prospective client felt that an index for a 220-page > book would cost between $100-$150! This is the second time this has happened. > > Eleven years ago I was charging $1.25 a page (and sometimes more) for > typing/word processing with light editing. None of my clients even > questioned my rates. > > Are indexers truly the Rodney Dangerfields of the information industry? > > I'd appreciate your comments! > > TIA > > Lillian Ashworth > ashworth@pullman.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:21:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Giles Subject: Re: ergonomics In-Reply-To: <9701102025.AA49139@medcat.library.swmed.edu> I have used a backless chair, but it has it's own problems -- pressure on the knees can be very intense after awhile. It also fell apart soon. I think it's a useful backup chair for when your back gets tired. ----------------------------- On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, by way of Sonsie wrote: > Hello all, > Have any of you used the backless chair with the kneeling pad to work at the > computer? What is your opinion if you have. I find that I almost naturally > try to imitate that position in any chair and am thinking seriously about > purchasing one. I am very short, so sitting in a regular office chair, no > matter how much I adjust and pad and add stools still doesn't quite work, and > I find myself with an aching back from trying to fit. > Thanks > Leslie > LLF Editorial Services > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:43:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: ergonomics In-Reply-To: <199701102131.QAA129470@rs8.loc.gov> Hello, everyone, A couple of years ago at work, everyone had to attend an ergonomics session with an ergonomics expert and someone asked a question about those "kneeling benches." She said they were not very good or, ah, "ergnomically correct." :) Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:37:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: ergonomics/posting thanks To all you who posted or emailed me answers to my ergonomics question, thank you. Also, thanks to those who emailed me advice on posting problems, thanks. I now understand that suddenly I cannot use the Bitnet address. I don't know why that happened, since I've been hitting reply since the very beginning. But, that's the way things go. Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:17:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: AOL I just heard a story on ABC news about aol. It appears that many people are experiencing delay in getting online due to aol's recent growth! They (aol) are finally spending money to get better equipment, and are now realizing that they may loose customers during this growth!! I'm surprised it took this long to become a news story! It'll be interesting to see how it plays out! Cheers. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Service macallen@tiac.net (Formerly, an addicted AOL user-now addicted to TIAC :-) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:07:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: AOL At 06:17 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: >I just heard a story on ABC news about aol. It appears that many people >are experiencing delay in getting online due to aol's recent growth! They >(aol) are finally spending money to get better equipment, and are now >realizing that they may loose customers during this growth!! > >I'm surprised it took this long to become a news story! It'll be >interesting to see how it plays out! > >Willa MacAllen >MacAllen's Information Service >macallen@tiac.net >(Formerly, an addicted AOL user-now addicted to TIAC :-) God knows this is true! I have accounts (for business purposes) on CIS and AOL, as well as with Southwestern Bell; Bell, to my surprise and delight, is incredibly fast and clean as an ISP, while CompuServe is usually pretty good (and I've been a subscriber for many, many years). But AOL, you have to understand, has *always* said they were adding a whole bunch of additional modems, or better lines, or more tech support people, or whatever. They've *always* been behind. Let's face it -- they're cheap! I've heard it suggested that the main reason AOL has such a large subscribership is simply that so many of those folks are rank beginners who received start-up disks in the mail, or in magazines, or stuck under their windshield wipers for all I know... and they can't figure out how to un-subscribe. Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:07:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: babe in the woods At 08:02 PM 1/10/97 -0600, you wrote: >I'm lurking here in the corner because I have just joined the list and am >taking the USDA's Basic Indexing course. > >If anyone can tell me absolutely what NOT to do while I'm getting started I >would appreciate the advice. I don't ask for much more than that right now >because I'm gleaning little pearls from the list, and I'm not sure what else >I need to ask. > >Thanks - Becki Reiss You don't say if this is a side-income thing or whether you intend (at some point) to make an actual living at it... but in either case, I can give a bit of hard-learned advice: DON'T BE BASHFUL! That is, learn to "sell yourself." Like many part-time indexers, I'm a professional, multi-degreed librarian (29 years and counting). I'm basically a book-person and have never been very comfortable at tooting my own horn. Cold calling? Forget it! But a friend with more aggressively businesslike attributes sat me down and convinced me of the cold, hard facts of promoting oneself. Well, I still have to psych myself up for it, and I certainly don't enjoy it, but I do it. I have almost exactly the work load I need to build up my retirement investments while still putting in 40 hours a week at the library, and I'm preparing myself to crank things up somewhat when I retire in 15 months. Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 05:09:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: AOL Michael K. Smith wrote: > > At 06:17 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I just heard a story on ABC news about aol. It appears that many people > >are experiencing delay in getting online due to aol's recent growth! They > >(aol) are finally spending money to get better equipment, and are now > >realizing that they may loose customers during this growth!! > > > >I'm surprised it took this long to become a news story! It'll be > >interesting to see how it plays out! > > > >Willa MacAllen > >MacAllen's Information Service > >macallen@tiac.net > >(Formerly, an addicted AOL user-now addicted to TIAC :-) > > God knows this is true! I have accounts (for business purposes) on CIS and > AOL, as well as with Southwestern Bell; Bell, to my surprise and delight, > is incredibly fast and clean as an ISP, while CompuServe is usually pretty > good (and I've been a subscriber for many, many years). > > But AOL, you have to understand, has *always* said they were adding a whole > bunch of additional modems, or better lines, or more tech support people, > or whatever. They've *always* been behind. Let's face it -- they're cheap! > I've heard it suggested that the main reason AOL has such a large > subscribership is simply that so many of those folks are rank beginners who > received start-up disks in the mail, or in magazines, or stuck under their > windshield wipers for all I know... and they can't figure out how to > un-subscribe. > > Mike > > Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net > Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... Greents: I had not realized that AOL was always behind! AOL is good for beginners--as long as one doesn't mind the delays in getting online. I think they are now advertising 50 hours of free connection to get new users, in addition to their new flat rate. One comment regarding the difficulty in unsubscribing: AOL does not make it easy to do that. I had to spend a fair amount of time online, and finally got an 800 number from Keyword: Cancel before I got a direct connection. And, then, I had a half hour wait before I got a human being! So I think AOL is making it as easy as possible to sign on, but much more difficult to unsubscribe! Cheers. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services macallen@tiac.net word procesisng database management proofreading indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:57:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Index question (Really!) To the computer folks: How do you handle the indexing of negative information? For instance, the statement: "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." Would you try to include in the index entry some indication that the information is a negative statement? On one hand, administrative accounts deleting will get the reader to right spot, but may build the expectation that one can delete admin accounts. On the other hand, administrative accounts deleting (NOT!) <---- whimsical example warns what the reader will find there. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:15:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: babe in the woods One piece of advice I have is to keep careful records and save all receipts, even before you get your first job. As long as you actually do get work, all those costs such as postage, phone calls, child care, software, books, the ergonomic chair of you choice, etc., are deductible. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:19:00 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) I cannot tell if the preservation of (there's another term!) of the accounts is generally desirable. But, I hazard these attempts administrative accounts deletion prevention and now administrative accounts preservation of I don't often include the preposition, but at this point would "preserve" it. At 10:57 AM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >To the computer folks: > >How do you handle the indexing of negative information? > >For instance, the statement: "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:22:37 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) Richard T. Evans wrote: > How do you handle the indexing of negative information? For instance, the statement: "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." Would you try to include in the index entry some indication that the information is a negative statement? On one hand, administrative accounts deleting will get the reader to right spot, but may build the expectation that one can delete admin accounts. On the other hand, administrative accounts deleting (NOT!) <---- whimsical example warns what the reader will find there. Dick, Interesting question. The only context of negative information in Han Wellish's "Indexing from A to Z" is on what is not included rather than the explicit "this cannot be done" example you pointed out. In the few instances I have had to deal with it I made it a habit not to begin the citation with the negative term, administrative accounts not deleting <---- never did this but I rather, administrative accounts deleting not allowed <------ my preferred approach I think the important action needs to be keyed, here "deleting" and then the negative attached. The user has the concept of deleting in their mind so I want to focus on that as the key term. I have also created a topic called "not allowed, things you cannot do" and then listed them as subtopics if there were enough of them to warrant. Hence you would have, not allowed, things you cannot do deleting administrative accounts (or maybe) administrative accounts, deleting I have not had enough of them in a list to warrant inverting the terms yet, though it might be necessary if there were a lot of them, though I have inverted the heading to just "things you cannot do". -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:26:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) The sense of the restriction is that, while other types of account can be deleted, you physically cannot delete administrative accounts. The system won't allow it. At 08:19 AM 1/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >I cannot tell if the preservation of (there's another term!) of the >accounts is generally desirable. But, I hazard these attempts > >administrative accounts > deletion prevention > >and now > >administrative accounts > preservation of ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:00:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) Richard T. Evans wrote: > The sense of the restriction is that, while other types of account can be > deleted, you physically cannot delete administrative accounts. The system > won't allow it. Would you also have an entry under "deleting," or "accounts, deleting," such as: deleting accounts administrator, not allowed guest temporary user I think I would go with just: deleting accounts administrator guest temporary user Why? I'm not sure, except a vague sense that I'm not giving details about the other types of accounts ("using Win95 Control Panel" or "with the Options Menu") so why do it for the admin account? For the admin primary entry, I would use this one from William: > administrative accounts > deleting not allowed Why? Because under the heading of admin accounts I'm giving lots of detail (creating, changing, assigning user permissions, etc). Just my opinion; no rules to cite for my preferences on this one! I like William's idea of an entry for things a user can't do, but I might put it under "restrictions" or "limitations" rather than "things" or "not." Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:21:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Robert Austen Subject: Re: AOL and other ISPs: easy in - not easy out sometimes . . . (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:16:25 -0500 (EST) From: David Robert Austen To: Indexer's Discussion Group Cc: davidaus@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: AOL and other ISPs: easy in - not easy out sometimes . . . Having had a little experience with AOL ( and it was OK, I suppose, though I do remember some small difficulty in dropping out) next time I'd try just sending a check to them instead of giving them the ability to charge my credit card each month. I'd explicitly remind them (and the bank) that this is NOT to set up an automatic monthly debit!) Many university students have accounts "free" with their tuition and this might be another approach to use, even for the long-term, especially if you think (part-time) education should be a life-long endeavour. Universities often have excellent support and advice available on the phone. I wish you all a happy new year. ------------------- David Robert Austen Masters Degree Program in Information Science Indiana University, Bloomington Indiana 47405 U.S.A. Telephone 812 335 8835 Fax 812 335 8598 -------------------- On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Willa MacAllen wrote: > Michael K. Smith wrote: > > > > At 06:17 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: > > >I just heard a story on ABC news about aol. It appears that many people > > >are experiencing delay in getting online due to aol's recent growth! They > > >(aol) are finally spending money to get better equipment, and are now > > >realizing that they may loose customers during this growth!! > > > > > >I'm surprised it took this long to become a news story! It'll be > > >interesting to see how it plays out! > > > > > >Willa MacAllen > > >MacAllen's Information Service > > >macallen@tiac.net > > >(Formerly, an addicted AOL user-now addicted to TIAC :-) > > > > God knows this is true! I have accounts (for business purposes) on CIS and > > AOL, as well as with Southwestern Bell; Bell, to my surprise and delight, > > is incredibly fast and clean as an ISP, while CompuServe is usually pretty > > good (and I've been a subscriber for many, many years). > > > > But AOL, you have to understand, has *always* said they were adding a whole > > bunch of additional modems, or better lines, or more tech support people, > > or whatever. They've *always* been behind. Let's face it -- they're cheap! > > I've heard it suggested that the main reason AOL has such a large > > subscribership is simply that so many of those folks are rank beginners who > > received start-up disks in the mail, or in magazines, or stuck under their > > windshield wipers for all I know... and they can't figure out how to > > un-subscribe. > > > > Mike > > > > Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net > > Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... > > Greents: > > I had not realized that AOL was always behind! AOL is good for > beginners--as long as one doesn't mind the delays in getting online. I > think they are now advertising 50 hours of free connection to get new > users, in addition to their new flat rate. > > One comment regarding the difficulty in unsubscribing: AOL does not make > it easy to do that. I had to spend a fair amount of time online, and > finally got an 800 number from Keyword: Cancel before I got a direct > connection. And, then, I had a half hour wait before I got a human > being! So I think AOL is making it as easy as possible to sign on, but > much more difficult to unsubscribe! > > Cheers. > > Willa MacAllen > MacAllen's Information Services > macallen@tiac.net > > word procesisng database management > proofreading indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:56:28 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: john reiss Subject: administrative accounts To Richard Evans: My husband is a programmer and says that if the administrative account is actually a user account that the following, which was submitted by William Meisheid, is appropriate: administrative accounts deleting not allowed He said that as a programmer, he likes to have questions answered while looking at index entries, ESPECIALLY if it is a negative. It saves him time and grief. Becki Reiss ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:52:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Indexing question (references to Web sites) Hello, all - In a book about a Web server, I have the following sentence: "For a table of the country codes used in domain names, plus many other interesting documents and links related to domain names, go to www.blahblahblah." Would you index country codes this way: country codes, list of (or) country codes, where to find and does it really make any difference? This happens a lot in the books I work on; interesting and important info for the user is mentioned and a Web site is given. I list all Web sites under a heading of "Web sites of interest" and I'm never quite sure what to do with the actual info. As with the above item, sometimes I index it as though the info was actually to be found on a page in the book, and other times I use the "where to find" phrase. Your thoughts? Thanks, Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:39:04 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Real-time chat channel for indecers? All this chatting about chat has made me wonder if there is scope for a real-time chat channel for indexers? What I have in mind is using one of the universal chat systems like Microsoft Comic Chat or the new Yahoo Chat and setting up a channel called #indexers. Hopefully there would be enough indexers there to keep conversation going - if not 24 hours a day - at least a fair proportion of the time. This should take some of the load off INDEX-L while still providing a 'virtual water-cooler' environment. If you're interested then respond to me _privately_ and I'll provide further details within a few days, along with an indication of how many people might using the channel. If you have a preference for one or the other of the systems indicated above, let me know. PS: I know this excludes some Mac and DOS users and others who don't have a graphic interface to the Net, but I don't know of any text-based IRC servers which are always available world-wide. If you do, let me know and I'll give them a try. Jonathan. Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Blue Mountains Desktop 61-047-398 199 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:32:45 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Ergonomic chairs Leslie Leland wrote: >Hello all, >Have any of you used the backless chair with the kneeling pad to work at the computer? What is your opinion if you have. I find that I almost naturally try to imitate that position in any chair and am thinking seriously about purchasing one. I am very short, so sitting in a regular office chair, no matter how much I adjust and pad and add stools still doesn't quite work, and I find myself with an aching back from trying to fit. >Thanks I've used an ergonomic chair for nearly ten years. It works wonders, but because they're usually much less adjustable than a normal office chair, it's important to get one that's the right height and slope both for you and your working environment. If possible you should obtain the chair on the understanding that you can return it after a week or two if it doesn't suit your conditions. Some chair types are more adjustable than others. Ergonomic chairs also make it slower and more hazardous to leap up and answer the phone - be warned. Note too that purpose-made computer desks are considerably lower than the kitchen tables, etc., that most of us learnt our trade at. We're currently looking at getting our old chair adjusted to suit our new desk. Regards Jon. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:39:28 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Indexers vs typists/word processors Lillian Ashworth wrote: >Why is it that many authors seem to automatically assume that indexers work for less than $1 per page whereas they seem perfectly willing to pay typists/word processors more? This is not a valid comparison. The typist's output for the $1 is a page of typed and formatted text: the indexer's output for one page may be a single line, a single page number or even (for some pages) nothing at all. Let's not try and play up our own importance at the expense of other hard-working professions. Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Blue Mountains Desktop 61-047-398 199 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:31:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Indexers vs typists/word processors At 09:39 PM 1/11/97 +1100, you wrote: >This is not a valid comparison. The typist's output for the $1 is a page of >typed and formatted text: the indexer's output for one page may be a single >line, a single page number or even (for some pages) nothing at all. Let's not >try and play up our own importance at the expense of other hard-working >professions. There is an old joke about the fellow whose steam boiler sprang a leak and was filling his basement with steam. In a panic, he called a plumber, who arrived promptly, went directly to the shutoff valve, and shut it off. The plumber then presented the homeowner with a bill for $50. The homeowner complained: "What! Fifty dollars for turning a valve!" The plumber replied: "Turning the valve was only fifty cents. The rest was for knowing which valve to turn." Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:06:00 GMT0 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: Re: ergonomics I was reading an account of a fiddly job someone was doing. To emphasise how fiddly it was he said he had to walk away from it several times. I wonder if (a) for some people indexing standing up would not be a bad idea, with the opportunity to pace around; (b) those old tall stools and desks seen in Dickensian illsutrations were more practical than modern furniture? _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:09:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: liam Subject: Versus? One of my clients sent me a few pages of a sample index from one of their previous books, which was roughly similar to the one I was doing. They didn't do this with the intent of having me do mine the exact same way, but just to give me a basic idea of what they've published in the past. Anyway, in this sample I noticed several subentries which began with "versus" and which all came at the end (sorted under "versus"). This seemed kind of counterintuitive to me. "Versus" seems to be something you'd want to ignore while sorting, like "and" or "in." Can someone please direct me to some rule which might clear this up for me, or something from your own experience? "Versus" is a word that I've almost never used in an index (in fact I can't think of a single instance of it so far) but you never know when something new will come up. -- Sarah Allen Smith Lawrence, Kansas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:33:20 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) In-Reply-To: <853084887.529101.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> In message <853084887.529101.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com>, "Richard T. Evans" writes >How do you handle the indexing of negative information? > >For instance, the statement: "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." > >Would you try to include in the index entry some indication that the >information is a negative statement? No, I should not. I believe that the indexer is not there to "state the law", but to show the reader where it is to be found. Although this "rule" belongs particularly (in my not so humble opinion) to legal materials, I see no reason why it should not apply in cases of the sort posed by Richard. > >On one hand, > > administrative accounts > deleting > >will get the reader to right spot, but may build the expectation that one >can delete admin accounts. > Well, he will soon find out, and it's not YOUR rule, after all. > >On the other hand, > > administrative accounts > deleting (NOT!) <---- whimsical example > >warns what the reader will find there. I prefer to use a neutral word, usually one ending in -ability, or suchlike. Admittedly a term such as "deletability" is not particularly attractive (or spelt right?), but it does give a sort of warning. Another reason, at least in the legal area, is that these things change. Who knows whether the action might suddenly become acceptable? If you follow the last example, you will have to re-index when the next looseleaf supplement, new edition,etc. comes out. If you follow the "-ability" route, you don't have that worry! Does this help? Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:49:13 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Versus? >Anyway, in this sample I noticed several subentries which began with >"versus" and which all came at the end (sorted under "versus"). This >seemed kind of counterintuitive to me. "Versus" seems to be something >you'd want to ignore while sorting, like "and" or "in." Sarah, I always use "vs." as the abbreviation, and I set Macrex to ignore it as a leading word. Sorting on vs. is not helpful. And yes, it can be quite appropriate to use in an index. "xxx compared to" or other such constructions may also be used; choice depends on the context and subject matter. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:49:10 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: ergonomics John wrote: >I wonder if (a) for some people indexing standing up would not be a bad >idea, with the opportunity to pace around; > (b) those old tall stools and desks seen in Dickensian >illsutrations were more practical than modern furniture? I *really* want to be able to stand up and index. Those Dickensian illustrations are what I think about when I imagine what furniture I need. The problem is, I want to be able to sit, as well, depending on what I need at the time (changing position is important for me). No solution for me, so far. I do have a high credenza-type thing that I stand at for such tasks as vetting proof and organizing manuscripts. Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:49:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) >>Would you try to include in the index entry some indication that the >>information is a negative statement? Betty wrote: >No, I should not. I believe that the indexer is not there to "state the >law", but to show the reader where it is to be found. Although this >"rule" belongs particularly (in my not so humble opinion) to legal >materials, I see no reason why it should not apply in cases of the sort >posed by Richard. When I did legal indexing it was strictly prohibited to state the law in the index; I was told this was mainly because the index was not allowed to interpret the law. That's what the text was for. Something about liability because the full explanation/interpretation was not present in the index. But I really do think that is a quirk of legal indexing, and that in a computer-type manual it is much more useful to give such information. Since it shouldn't cost any space in the index, more information is better than less. After all, a computer manual is a place where people are seeking answers to specific yes/no and procedural questions. There aren't really gray areas in their usage or function, and no precedents to examine for possible loopholes. $.02, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:50:07 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: AOL growth - free plug for free newsletter Willa MacAllen wrote: Subject: Re: AOL >I just heard a story on ABC news about aol. It appears that many people are experiencing delay in getting online due to aol's recent growth! They (aol) are finally spending money to get better equipment, and are now realizing that they may loose customers during this growth!! >I'm surprised it took this long to become a news story! It'll be interesting to see how it plays out! AOL users and others who are interested in the development and growth of the ISP and network markets can get an entertaining blow-by-blow account in Robert Seidman's free weekly e-mail newsletter. I've been a subscriber for a year and always found it intriguing. Here are the details: >Send a message to LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM >In the BODY of the message type: >SUBSCRIBE ONLINE-L Jonathan. Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Blue Mountains Desktop 61-047-398 199 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:25:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Versus? At 04:09 PM 1/12/97 -0600, you wrote: >Anyway, in this sample I noticed several subentries which began with >"versus" and which all came at the end (sorted under "versus"). This >seemed kind of counterintuitive to me. "Versus" seems to be something >you'd want to ignore while sorting, like "and" or "in." > >Can someone please direct me to some rule which might clear this up for >me, or something from your own experience? "Versus" is a word that I've >almost never used in an index (in fact I can't think of a single instance >of it so far) but you never know when something new will come up. > >-- Sarah Allen Smith > Lawrence, Kansas I've only (in 15+ years) used "versus" in an index as part of the name of a law case -- and then it's actually given as "v." Try replacing "versus" with "compared to" -- which I use frequently, and which seems more like 'ordinary' language.... Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Versus? At 08:25 PM 1/12/97 -0600, you wrote: >I've only (in 15+ years) used "versus" in an index as part of the name of a >law case -- and then it's actually given as "v." I use it fairly often in computer books and several clients have style guidelines for using it, so it's not just me. For example: 16-bit color monitor settings palette vs. 32-bit color ...where 32-bit is sorted as "thirty-two." Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:29:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) Richard T. Evans wrote: > > To the computer folks: > > How do you handle the indexing of negative information? > > For instance, the statement: "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." > > Would you try to include in the index entry some indication that the > information is a negative statement? > > On one hand, > > administrative accounts > deleting > > will get the reader to right spot, but may build the expectation that one > can delete admin accounts. > > On the other hand, > > administrative accounts > deleting (NOT!) <---- whimsical example > > warns what the reader will find there. > > Dick Evans When I run across things like that, I use the method in your first example: administrative accounts deleting (with a double-post under "deleting") because if the reader wants to know about deleting administrative accounts, IMO they are most likely to look up either "administrative accounts, deleting" or "deleting administrative accounts". And when they find the page number, they will have the exact information they need -- "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." -- even if it's not what they wanted to hear. Just my two-cents worth, Cheryl Dietsch Macmillan Computer Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:42:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) >How do you handle the indexing of negative information? > >For instance, the statement: "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." > >Would you try to include in the index entry some indication that the >information is a negative statement? > >On one hand, > > administrative accounts > deleting > >will get the reader to right spot, but may build the expectation that one >can delete admin accounts. > > >On the other hand, > > administrative accounts > deleting (NOT!) <---- whimsical example > >warns what the reader will find there. > >Dick Evans Dick, this question has interested me for some time, and it comes up in contexts other than computer. I generally ignore the negative component, on the grounds that the index isn't supposed to reproduce the text exactly, just let the reader know what the subjects are. The subject is deleting of administrative accounts. In a way, it's similar to the difference between these two sorts of entries: Roberts, Carol hair color of vs. Roberts, Carol red hair of Unless one especially needed that distinction between my red hair and some other color that my hair was (BTW: not!), or if "hair color of" were simply too cryptic by itself, there would be no reason to add "red." I am by no means adamant about this. Do others have arguments for the other side? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:53:26 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Versus? Sarah, I use it in situations in which two alternatives, X and Y are being compared: X Y vs. Y X vs. I use "vs." rather than "versus." If I were to put it at the start of the sub, I would indeed ignore it in the sorting, as you said. I haven't been able to find anything definitive on whether it should be in itals. It is Latin, but the Chicago Manual favors setting in roman type foreign words and phrases that are common in English, e.g., ibid., ipso facto. For a while, I thought it should be italicized simply because it was set that way in Cindex, as a default! Does anyone have a rule you could point me to? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:36:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Question about book on indexing Has anyone read the following book yet? If not, has anyone seen a review of it anywhere? If so, please let me know. O'Connor, Brian C. Explorations in Indexing and Abstracting: Pointing, Virtue, and Power Libraries Unlimited (ISBN 1563081849) 1996 Thanks in advance. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 03:26:49 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Sort order problem I'm indexing a book on psychoanalysis that requires a number of entries of the following nature: Other subhead subhead other subhead subhead Where "Other" and "other" are legitimately different entries. Question: Which should come first, the capitalized entry or the lower case? I can't find a source on this. TIA, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:34:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Reina Pennington Subject: Re: ergonomics, kneeling chair In-Reply-To: <01IE3T1FGIPS8ZQ8NQ@InfoAve.Net> Re the kneeling chair discussion -- the original question was posted by someone who said she was "very short, so sitting in a regular office chair, no matter how much I adjust and pad and add stools still doesn't quite work," giving her a bad back ache. I bought a kneeling chair back in 1985. I was working in a government office in DC at the time, trying to finish a long manuscript. I had to constantly move from my desk to a typing table (yes, the personal computer was not yet a desktop item!), and the two surfaces were different heights. By the end of the day, my back hurt so badly I could hardly drive. I went to an ergonomics store and bought a very expensive ($200+) kneeling chair. It was heavily padded, upholstered in black suede, had a wheeled 5-leg stand that made it easy to roll any direction, and had a hydraulic height adjustment. I LOVED it. I could roll between the desks and in a second change my height. My back troubles went away *completely.* I really felt it saved my life. I loved it so much I bought another one for my home office. I didn't have any trouble with my knees, as others have mentioned, but I did have some problems with my upper shins. After a couple of hours, my shins would get numb, and I would find myself propping one foot or the other up on the knee pad. As others have noted, getting up quickly was a slight problem -- worse if you wear a skirt -- and "having something to lean back against while you contemplate an entry" was a definite factor. The ideal solution, for me, is to have TWO chairs. Use the kneeling chair for extended computer work, and switch off periodically. That worked very well for me in the past. Right now, my home office is tight on space and I just don't have the room to move a second chair out of the way. I'm using a fairly comfortable upholstered desk chair with arm rests, back cushion, and a footrest to keep my knees at the right height. But I long for the day when I can use BOTH my chairs again! Reina Pennington Dept. of History, University of South Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:11:06 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: Sort order problem Victoria Baker wrote: > Question: Which should come first, the capitalized entry or the lower case? Victoria, I don't think it is an issue as long as it is consistent. Computer sort would force all duplicates with caps before all with lowercase. So if I had a choice it would probably be caps first to match the consistency of the computer sort. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ergonomics In a message dated 97-01-10 15:30:01 EST, you write: << Have any of you used the backless chair with the kneeling pad to work at the computer? What is your opinion if you have. I find that I almost naturally try to imitate that position in any chair and am thinking seriously about purchasing one. I am very short, so sitting in a regular office chair, no matter how much I adjust and pad and add stools still doesn't quite work, and I find myself with an aching back from trying to fit. >> Leslie-- I have used such a chair, and even with wheels, found it to be cumbersome. I move around a lot at my desk, and do a lot of handwriting as well as typing. While the "balance" (sp?) chair was OK for typing, it was not at all comfortable for writing--and was awkward moving to and from the writing surface and the keyboard. So I bit the bullet, and forked out about $200 for a pneumatic-lift chair (goes up and down easily using a lever under the seat). I'm extremely happy with this chair. Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:17:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Heather L. Ebbs" Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: Sort order problem Victoria, I can't find a source either, but when I've had this same problem (in tech manuals), I've sorted the capitalized entries first. I think that the main concern is to be consistent within the book or series. Heather Ebbs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Sorting upper-/lowercase In-Reply-To: <199701131411.JAA24431@ruby.ora.com> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, William Meisheid wrote: > > Question: Which should come first, the capitalized entry or the lower case? > > I don't think it is an issue as long as it is consistent. Computer sort > would force all duplicates with caps before all with lowercase. So if I > had a choice it would probably be caps first to match the consistency of > the computer sort. I agree. On the other hand, there is sometimes a way around having to make this choice if needed, by adding more text to distinguish the two items. In fact, sometimes it's helpful to inform the reader that the capitalized word is different from the lowercase word. For example, I've noticed authors differentiate between "Web" and "web." Instead of worrying about sorting these two, it's easier to create there: "Web" and "web, internal" (or something like these). - Seth Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:13:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Sort order problem My response takes a little bit tack than those that have been posted already. Could it be that computer-sort is based on traditional library sorting rules? According to the 1992 (8th) edition of Wynar's Introduction to Cataloging and Classification (pgs. 537-540), identical entries have to be classed/organized according to whether they are person, place, or thing. (Library of Congress [LC] filing rules). Within the category of thing, you can have corporate body--proper name--first, then thing--non-proper name. This comes as close as I can tell to your example, not knowing exactly the context and not being a psychologist, that what you have are things, one of which is a proper noun by merit of its being capitalized. It seems that "Other" is a sort of corporate body entity that has an aura about it like a proper name for a person, place, or thing, while "other" is not in the same category. Therefore, I would suggest that the order as you have it in your example is correct. Also, I have a question: if you are referring to the concept of "the other," should it not be given as "other, the" in the index? That is how the Penguin Dictory of Psychology has it. With typical sorting that would solve your problem for this entry at least! (Of course, if you go with "the other" and ignore the "the," you have the same problem, however). (I apologize if this is not the the context, but it is hard to know from the example given). Another aspect to this, given by the ANSI/Standards, is the suggestion that there be some sort of qualifier after identical terms, or at least a note about this in the headnote to the index. Interestingly enough, "[t]here is no ANSI/NISO standard for alphabetical or alphanumeric arrangements." (ANSI/NISO Standards, 1995) The rules followed are LC and the CMS (Chicago Manual of Style), which was not much help on this. I also looked at Hans Wellisch's Indexing A to Z where he talks about homographs, pgs. 189-95. There is some good information there, too. Hopes this helps. Very good question, Victoria! At 03:26 AM 1/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >I'm indexing a book on psychoanalysis that requires a number of entries of >the following nature: > >Other > subhead > subhead >other > subhead > subhead > >Where "Other" and "other" are legitimately different entries. > >Question: Which should come first, the capitalized entry or the lower case? > >I can't find a source on this. > >TIA, >Victoria > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:24:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Critique v. criticise?? Elizabeth M. Moys wrote: > > A quiet whinge from across the pond: how is it that some of you in North > America seem to be unable to envisage "criticising" things, indexes or > otherwise? I can take "critique" as a noun, but is there really any need > to use it as a verb, when "criticise" is available? And as for > "critiquing" - !! > > Betty >> ==================================================================== >From "The Write Way, the S.P.E.L.L. Guide to Real Life Writing": Quote: Converting verbs into nouns is bad enough, but lately we have seen more andmore examples of converting nouns into verbs. Cartoonist Bill Watterson noted this phenomenon in his briliant _Calvin and Hobbes_ comic strip. The conversation is between the precocious little boy, Calvin, and his friend Hobbes the tiger: Calvin: I love to verb words. Hobbes: What? Calvin: I take nouns and adjectives and use them as verbs. Remember when "access" was a thing? Now it's something you do. It got verbed. Verbing weirds language. End Quote It is a habit we will all fall into if we are not careful. What would happen to our indexes *then*? :-D The term that bugs me, which is not verbing a word, but seems to be weird language is: She is _looking to_ buy a car. I hear it used more all the time. Is it correct English? I've resigned myself to the fact it has become part of the language, at any rate, but it really sounds uneducated to *my* ear. Maybe it is just a regional thing that recently made it to the south, so it sounds funny? A friend of mine from MD used to get a big kick out of the Georgia guys in school with us. They would say, "Mash on that elevator button again". She said in MD they mashed potatoes but not elevator buttons! -- Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:30:33 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: biros Thanks to everyone for the explanation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:32:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sort order problem In a message dated 97-01-13 06:35:39 EST, Victoria write: > Question: Which should come first, the capitalized entry or the lower case? > > I can't find a source on this. Victoria, I haven't seen a rule on this either but have been content to allow the software to make the decision (probably by using the respective ASCII values). If we don't know of a rule for this, I doubt that most of our index users would either. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing question (references to Web sites) In a message dated 97-01-12 15:54:20 EST, you write: > Hello, all - > > In a book about a Web server, I have the following sentence: > > "For a table of the country codes used in domain names, plus many other > interesting documents and links related to domain names, go to > www.blahblahblah." > > Would you index country codes this way: > > country codes, list of (or) > country codes, where to find > > and does it really make any difference? This happens a lot in the books > I work on; interesting and important info for the user is mentioned and > a Web site is given. I list all Web sites under a heading of "Web sites > of interest" and I'm never quite sure what to do with the actual info. > As with the above item, sometimes I index it as though the info was > actually to be found on a page in the book, and other times I use the > "where to find" phrase. Your thoughts? Ann, This comes up in every book that I index about the Web. (And I shudder with horror at the realization that, in my last book, I too had a table for country codes in domain names, but didn't make a main heading as you meticulously did for "country codes". I totally blew that one, though at least it was included in a page range for a subentry under domain names. I'm hoping that the table included other components of domain names so I'll have a halfhearted excuse for sleeping that one. ;-D). Anyway, I wholeheartedly support the concept behind what you're doing. Had I made a main heading for country codes (kicking myself again), I would have made a subentry pointing to the table as "listed" if there were other subentries under that heading. I handle the Web sites of interest somewhat differently. In books on the Web or the Internet (which invariably have large sections on the Web), I always have an entry for "Web sites". However, I reserve that for subentries pertaining to Web sites in general. At the "Web sites" main heading, I make a See also reference to "URLs (Uniform Resource Locators)". Under the heading for URLs, along with entries pertaining to URLs in general, I also create subentries for specific Web sites wording them in such a way as to make them distinct from the other subentries. For example: URLs (Uniform Resource Locators) components of for HTTP server extension downloads BTW, I do hope that the computing community eventually settles on either "Uniform" or "Universal" for the U in URL! It seems that in almost every index I create containing that heading, I use the wrong word for the spellout, then have to change it when I find the term that the author prefers. (Of course, it would help if the author presented the spellout at the first occurrence of the acronym as well.) ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:32:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) In a message dated 97-01-12 11:02:29 EST, Dick wrote: > > How do you handle the indexing of negative information? > > For instance, the statement: "Administrative accounts cannot be deleted." > > Would you try to include in the index entry some indication that the > information is a negative statement? Dick, I come across this situation frequently in indexing and, when possible, do indicate the negative in the index. After all, even though we're not supposed to actually rewrite the book in the index, I don't see any problem whatsoever in performing this particular service for readers and, as an index user, would appreciate it myself. Plus, it would be downright misleading, as others have stated, to simply make a subentry for administrative accounts under deleting. So, I'd make the following entries: administrative accounts inability to delete deleting administrative accounts, inability of (In case anyone is wondering about why the apparent inversion of the subentry in the second example doesn't "track right", it's an implied subsubentry brought up to the subentry level, which I do on occasion.) I've also made subentries, for example, that include the terms "caution against" or "danger of", which is a different case from the one you're faced with. But the basic concept of including the negative is, IMHO, valid and useful. I don't believe necessarily in just sending the reader to the relevant text without a hint of what they'll find there if I can *succinctly* provide useful information in the index. My philosophy for indexing computer manuals is that the software user is already angry when he or she has to refer to the manual (especially folks like me who will play with the software endlessly, expecting it to reveal its secrets without having to refer to the documentation) and gets even angrier when they have to spend more time than necessary retrieving the information they need. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:33:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Versus? In a message dated 97-01-12 17:11:22 EST, Sarah wrote: > One of my clients sent me a few pages of a sample index from one of their > previous books, which was roughly similar to the one I was doing. They > didn't do this with the intent of having me do mine the exact same way, > but just to give me a basic idea of what they've published in the past. > Anyway, in this sample I noticed several subentries which began with > "versus" and which all came at the end (sorted under "versus"). This > seemed kind of counterintuitive to me. "Versus" seems to be something > you'd want to ignore while sorting, like "and" or "in." Sarah, I frequently use "versus" (spelled as "vs.") as an extremely handy, succinct way of indicating a comparison. (OTOH, I've had one client that changed all of my abbreviations of it to spelled out forms which diminished its easy ignorability--new word--and brevity .) You are quite right that it should be ignored in sorting as it is a preposition. As Victoria does, I too have Macrex set to ignore it. In the original Latin, it meant "toward", as in "turned so as to face something", according to my dictionary, thus the juxtapositioning of concepts inherent in the concept of comparison. Personally, I prefer it set in roman, not italics. For one, it's so common in the English language, IMHO, that italics indicating its foreign origin aren't necessary. (Note that, in sports announcements, it isn't always set in italics.) Secondly, italics makes the eye hesitate over it, countering my intention of simply feeding the concept of comparison to the reader and moving them immediately onward to the substance of the subentry containing it. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:51:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Indexing question (references to Web sites) >> On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:52:44 -0500, you said: Ann> In a book about a Web server, I have the following sentence: Ann> "For a table of the country codes used in domain names, plus many other Ann> interesting documents and links related to domain names, go to Ann> www.blahblahblah." Ann> Would you index country codes this way: Ann> country codes, list of (or) country codes, where to find Ann> and does it really make any difference? I think so. I'm not an indexer, but I always appreciate consistent index terminology. Something like "where to find" for any HTML link would be very easy on the eyes. This is one of the rare occasions where I really like to see a separate table from the main index. I picked up an excellent book called "Secrets of the Super Net Searchers" which has 35 interviews with people who do online searches for a living. One of the most useful sections is a separate table holding every Web link or online reference mentioned in any interview. I can fire up Netscape and just go right down the list without filling the book with sticky-note page markers. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 Committees do not design! They are never held responsible, nor are they rewarded or punished. Committees can review. --C. Gordon Bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:26:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Symbols at top of index I have always troubled over where and how to put punctuation in an index. In the end, I have double-posted all symbols: once at the beginning, and once under the name of that symbol. (But this is more complicted in practice: see below.) If there are subentries, then I try to choose the more reasonable location -- an arbitrary decision -- and use a see also cross reference. > Karl E. Vogel wrote: > > The best example of this I've ever seen is the "Programming Perl" book > by O'Reilly & Associates. The index starts like this: You are probably looking at the first edition, for which the indexer was the author. The second edition was indexed by me, and I used the previous edition as a jumping-off point. On the other hand, putting punctuation first has been close to a tradition in O'Reilly & Associates indexing, partly because of my direct (and sometimes totalitarian :-) influence. But how is it sorted? Karl simply reproduced what I had done: ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / : ; < = > ? @ [ \ ] ^ _ ` { | } ~ to which Sonsie wrote: > [T]his is a gem, which I have saved for future reference. Thanks for > posting the sort order for symbols, which I had never known. But this order is completely arbitrary! You'll notice that the first edition's index uses punctuation in the order it appears on the keyboard, which means it's probably in ASCII order. (It's not in perfect keyboard order, either.) Unfortunately, in ASCII order, symbols like ~ appear AFTER the letter Z! So ASCII order is not such a great choice in every circumstance. Also, as a reader, I don't think I would intuitively know that @ follows ?. So I invented something new (for other books) and applied it for the second edition of this book. The explanatory paragraph (headnote) for the index for Programming Perl, 2nd edition: Punctuation in the index is sorted in the alphabetical order of each symbol's English equivalent: "ampersand", "asterisk", "at sign", "backslash", etc. Entries that consist only of punctuation are listed at the front of the index. Variable names beginning with $ and consisting only of punctuation, such as $_ and $^, are combined under the heading "$ variables", starting on the second page of the index. Terms with initial punctuation followed by alphanumeric characters, such as "%INC hash", are sorted by their alphanumeric characters (e.g., "INChash"). So for me, punctuation got sorted like this (and for those who disagree, read on): & * @ \ ` ! { } [ ] ^ : , $ . " = - < ( ) % + ? > ; # ' / ~ _ | What got interesting for me was that symbols have multiple names, even within the same context (e.g., computers). Is it "exclamation point" or "bang"? "Period" or "dot"? "Single quotation mark," "apostrophe," or "backtick"? And what about "pound," "hash," "sharp," and "octothorpe"? So I made my choices according to the author's preferences. When it came to initial punctuation, as in a command (debugger) -A file test operator \A (string boundary) -a switch, perl a2p program I sorted word by word, ignoring the initial punctuation altogether, no exceptions. When there were no words in the first space-delimited set of characters, I sorted by symbol. $& $` $* $\ $! $[ $] etc. This index, which was extremely rewarding to me, was a real pain, too. :-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:01:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: Question about book on indexing In-Reply-To: <199701131134.DAA22823@unixg.ubc.ca> There is a review of the index in the most recent issue of Keywords. Haven't seen a review of the entire book yet. A free copy of the book was sent by the publisher to many library school faculty (usually not a really good sign -- but who knows?), but I haven't taken the time yet to read the copy I got. Susie Stephenson UBC/SLAIS mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > Has anyone read the following book yet? If not, has anyone seen a review of > it anywhere? If so, please let me know. > O'Connor, Brian C., Explorations in Indexing and Abstracting: Pointing, Virtue, and Power. Libraries Unlimited (ISBN 1563081849) 1996 > Thanks in advance. > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer > cbertel@usit.net > http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > > ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:22:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Book on Indexing In-Reply-To: <199701082038.AA15800@world.std.com> I'm probably repeating a question from previous messages but.... What the best book on indexing that people can recommend? I know about Nancy Mulvany's but I thought I saw on the ASI list that it was no longer available. Please include author and publisher please so I can order from my local bookstore. Thanks, Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Symbols at top of index >> In a previous message, I wrote: >> The best example of this I've ever seen is the "Programming Perl" book by >> O'Reilly & Associates. The index starts like this: >> ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / : ; < = > ? @ [ \ ] ^ _ ` { | } ~ >> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:26:47 -0500, Seth wrote: S> But this order is completely arbitrary! You'll notice that the first S> edition's index uses punctuation in the order it appears on the keyboard, S> which means it's probably in ASCII order. It is in ASCII order. S> The explanatory paragraph (headnote) for the index for Programming Perl, 2nd S> edition: S> Punctuation in the index is sorted in the alphabetical order of each S> symbol's English equivalent: "ampersand", "asterisk", "at sign", S> "backslash", etc. [...] What got interesting for me was that symbols have S> multiple names, even within the same context (e.g., computers). That's the only problem with using English equivalents. However, as long as you're consistent within the index, the result is quite workable. My only quibble is index entries starting with a symbol, i.e. -a, -A, etc. I really like having those right at the start of a given letter section, because it just seems more consistent to tell myself "if you're looking for a symbol, look at the START of the whole index or a given section". It doesn't bother me either way as long as I can find what I want. The best indexer can't fix a book that's poorly organized or doesn't have enough examples. My dream computer book index answers my most frequently-asked questions, especially when I'm first learning about the subject of the book. For example: the "root password" is used for system administration under Unix, it's crucial, and you're hosed if you forget it. I would have loved to see something like this in ANY of the Sun administration books: root password, changing, xxx if you forget yours, xxx restricting access to, xxx ... I very rarely have trouble finding stuff in an O'Reilly book. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 First Law of Socio-Genetics: celibacy is not hereditary. --unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:15:18 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: printers again 13 Jan 1997 Dear All-- I'm in the market for a non-dot matrix printer (that is, laser or inkjet), and am frustrated by having to order something without trying it out or seeing how it works first. I want one that can (1) run from DOS, Windows 3.1, and Windows 95 (since it will be hooked up to PC's that run all three), (2) has gorgeous black-and-white printing on single pages (I don't want to mess with tractor feed anymore; speed is relatively unimportant), (3) can produce labels without smearing, (4) address an envelope (1 at a time is ok), (5) has cartridges which are relatively inexpensive and easy to come by, (6) is reliable. Can you give me some advice about brands that fulfill these desires, or how to find out about brands that do all these things, or where to buy printers that you can try out first, etc.? You can post to me privately, if you desire. Thanks in advance!--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:05:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Symbols at top of index In-Reply-To: "Karl E. Vogel" "Re: Symbols at top of index" (Jan 13, 2:24pm) >From Karl E. Vogel: > My only quibble is index entries starting with a symbol, i.e. -a, -A, etc. > I really like having those right at the start of a given letter section, > because it just seems more consistent to tell myself "if you're looking for > a symbol, look at the START of the whole index or a given section". Would you rather find an entry like $MULTILINE at the very beginning of the M words? I disagree. I would much rather see it near the end (sorted as "multiline"). In the Perl index (2nd ed.), I have a command -A file test operator \A (string boundary) -a switch, perl a2p program abbrev( ) abbreviations ... at sign atan function $atime file statistic ... Look where that last entry is, for example. If I didn't separate them out -- and maybe it's only this here Perl book, which is quite a monster when it comes to symbols, and in that sense perhaps even an exception to all our posturing -- you'd have all of these at the top of the index: -A file test operator \A (string boundary) -a switch, perl $ACCUMULATOR $ARG @ARGV $ARGV $atime file statistic all before you ever got to "a command." In addition, this would separate "@ARGV" and "$ARGV" from plain old "ARGV" (which also exists in this index), which I think is potentially misleading. (Similarly, I would want to see the variable "$MULTILINE" near "multiline substitutions" since they are directly related.) Thus, I suppose I disagree with you on that one, Karl. :-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:05:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Zibman Subject: indexer's library Suggestions, please for reference books (both types and titles) that every index should have on their shelf. Thanks, Nancy Zibman zibman@binah.cc.brandesi.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: printers again Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: > Dear All-- I'm in the market for a non-dot matrix printer (that is, laser or inkjet), and am frustrated by having to order something without trying it out or seeing how it works first... Laura, Considering all your requirements you can't go wrong with any of the HP laser printers. You can go to the Office Depot or CompUSA store in your area to see them and print out samples. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:55:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Verbing It seems to me that there's a definite difference between spoken language and written language. (If you ever see copies of spoken transcripts -- interviews, court records, etc. -- you'll know that how we talk is pretty unclean compared to the written version.) Language evolves and changes. And often society "tries on words for size." I remember when growing up as a kid, something pretty special ranged from "groovy" to "boss" to "cool" to "neat" to "bomb" (as in, "Wow, that coat's bomb." Or "That new Strawberry Alarm Clock record is groovy." Today, "groovy" is dated, but its meaning clearly signals something from the 60s; "boss" and "bomb" are outdated and would probably get strange looks if used in the same way they were used in the 70s; "neat" and "cool" are still used and the meaning understood. All of this to say that while "verbing" might seem incorrect to us today, if some critical societal changes have taken place, then the movement of a verb to a noun might be evolutionarily appropriate. "Access" seems to be a good example. Today, we connect to VoiceMail, Internet, E-mail, modems, answering machines, cable, etc., etc. So discussions having to do with "having access" to any of these, for instance, has no doubt increased in the last 10, 20, 30 years. "Having access" probably naturally evolves to just "access" as a verb. Just my own amateur postulation. I'm no linguist. Just an editor who works with words every day. I don't see why language shouldn't change as society changes. (And it changes naturally, doesn't it? No one announces once a year what that year's new words are.) What do you think? (I'm looking to get some responses here!! ;>) Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: printers again Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: > Dear All-- > I'm in the market for a non-dot matrix printer (that is, laser or > inkjet), I'll pass on to you some excellent advice I got from a trusted colleague (Hi, Dick): buy the industry standard whenever possible. Support is generally better, and other software and hardware manufacturers make products that integrate easily. For printers, that means buying Hewlett-Packard. I love my HP LaserJet 5. I bought the floor/demo model at Best Buy (a large store that carries lots of computer stuff as well as office supplies and large appliances). No manual was available, so I took it home, plugged it in, and it just WORKED! A first for me with any kind of hardware. Fast, clean, black and white, labels, envelopes, Web page graphics and photos, resumes, you name it. I'm very happy with it. I'm running only Win95, but HP is a reliable brand and drivers are available for your other operating systems (see links below). Web sites of interest: DOS, Win 3.1, and Win95 drivers for Laser Jet 5: http://hpcc997.external.hp.com/cposupport/indexes1/lj5s.html Hewlett-Packard Home page (incredibly complete and helpful): http://www.hp.com/ HomePC magazine's review of printers (too many graphics on this page, but pretty good reviews): http://techweb.cmp.com/hpc/Jan97/31CLINT.HTM Hope this is useful, Ann Norcross, Crossover Information Services mailto:norcross@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: indexer's library Nancy Zibman wrote: > Suggestions, please for reference books (both types and titles) > that every index should have on > their shelf. Thanks, Nancy Zibman zibman@binah.cc.brandesi.edu Here's what I have (far from a complete library; I'm looking forward to seeing other responses). BTW, I'm fooling around with including links in e-mail, so if you find these annoying, let me know. If helpful, let me know that, too, if you like. Recipes into Type : A Handbook for Cookbook Writers and Editors Author: Dolores Simon, Joan Whitman Hardcover, 258 pages List: $27.50 Publisher: Harpercollins Publication date: July 1, 1993 ISBN: 0062700340 Buy it from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0062700340 The Chicago Manual of Style 14th Edition Hardcover, 921 pages List: $40.00 Published by Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) Publication date: September 1, 1993 ISBN: 0226103897 Buy it from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0226103897 Indexing Books Author: Mulvany, Nancy C. Hardcover, 320 pages List: $29.95 Publisher: Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) Publication date: February 1994 ISBN: 0226550141 Buy it from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0226550141 Ann Norcross, Crossover Information Services mailto:norcross@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:29:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Index question (Really!) >How do you handle the indexing of negative information? > Dick, I index negative information as if it were positive. My job as indexer is to send the reader to a page, not to provide topical information about the subject of a book. I concentrate on trying to decide what terms the reader/user will have in mind when looking for information. If the reader gets to the right page, I've succeeded in my job, even if the reader is surprised (or in the case of what the program can't do, annoyed) by what is found there. I find, in training tech writers, that the biggest mistake untrained indexers make is trying to use the index to impart information. I tell my students that an index is a road map. It tells the user how to get somewheere, not what they will find when they arrive. Susan Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:28:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Sort order problem Dear Victoria, When faced with identical entries that have different meanings, I put more information for each entry, regardless of capitalization. For example: formatting command Formatting disks FORMATTING key Formatting pages Susan At 03:26 AM 1/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >I'm indexing a book on psychoanalysis that requires a number of entries of >the following nature: > >Other > subhead > subhead >other > subhead > subhead > >Where "Other" and "other" are legitimately different entries. > >Question: Which should come first, the capitalized entry or the lower case? > >I can't find a source on this. > >TIA, >Victoria > > Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Howe Subject: Re: Verbing --part_AF0017690014AC6000000001 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: Inline > It seems to me that there's a definite difference between spoken > language and written language. (If you ever see copies of > spoken transcripts -- interviews, court records, etc. -- you'll know > that how we talk is pretty unclean compared to the written > version.) Language evolves and changes. And often society "tries on > words for size." I remember when growing up as a kid, something > pretty special ranged from "groovy" to "boss" to "cool" to "neat" to > "bomb" (as in, "Wow, that coat's bomb." Or "That new Strawberry > Alarm Clock record is groovy." Today, "groovy" is dated, but its > meaning clearly signals something from the 60s; "boss" and "bomb" > are outdated and would probably get strange looks if used in the same > way they were used in the 70s; "neat" and "cool" are still used and > the meaning understood. > > All of this to say that while "verbing" might seem incorrect to us > today, if some critical societal changes have taken place, then > the movement of a verb to a noun might be evolutionarily > appropriate. "Access" seems to be a good example. Today, we connect > to VoiceMail, Internet, E-mail, modems, answering machines, cable, > etc., etc. So discussions having to do with "having access" to any > of these, for instance, has no doubt increased in the > last 10, 20, 30 years. "Having access" probably naturally evolves to > just "access" as a verb. > > Just my own amateur postulation. I'm no linguist. Just an editor who > works with words every day. I don't see why language shouldn't change > as society changes. > (And it changes naturally, doesn't it? No one announces once a year > what that year's new words are.) What do you think? (I'm looking to > get some responses here!! ;>) > > Larry Baker > Gale Research > Larry_Baker@gale.com > I couldn't agree more. Any vital language is created by the people who use it. Grammarians describe how language is used; they don't prescribe it. Neither do grammarians determine what it "correct" language; only how it is currently being used. The French have a different view, of course. They think that by codifying their tongue they can preserve it. What they're doing is embalming it. --part_AF0017690014AC6000000001 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: Inline John Howe, CEP Managing Editor 345 E. 47th St. New York, NY 10017 Voice: (212) 705-7334 Fax: (212) 705-7812 e-mail: johnh@aiche.org --part_AF0017690014AC6000000001-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:58:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Data pens Maro wrote: >I've actually tried to use a data pen for indexing, i.e. to "read" text >for index entries directly into a document, which I then "read" into >Cindex. But the experiment did not last long. The scanning pens have >tricky handling characteristics, and the OCR software they come bundled >with is less accurate than top-of-the line software. Then there was the >distraction of going from paper to computer monitor, and the additional >task of entering the page number manually. > I agree 100%. I was once sitting next to Nancy Gunther at a DC ASI meeting and we got to talking about how she used a thing called a Data Pen. It seemed like such a revelation to me that I bought one at the earliest opportunity, as in the first "window" of relative non-poverty. It was something like $ 250. My assessment in a nutshell: negligibly different from useless. Although perhaps the total correct rate is 75-85% for some text, it _never_ failed to make at least 1-2 letter mistakes on each word, which obviated correcting each one, which turns out to be more time consuming than typing straight in. The time delay between scanning the term and it appearing on screen is also very aggrevating. I agree that a major problem with it is it uses such apparently crappy OCR software, yet there were so many variables: lighting, angle, scan rate, etc. It has been gathering dust ever since, making it one of the more expensive dust gatherees I own. I am quite keen on the process Maro described involving scanning full pages, then getting selected text into Cindex/Macrex eventually, which seems much more the way to go. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:51:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: indexer's library Since I have been digging into Hans Wellisch's Indexing from A to Z quite a bit today, here is another page range from that book, where he lists basic references for indexers--pages 416-18. I'd add his book as another necessary one! A good basic dictionary like Webster's Collegiate is a must. If you do special subjects, I also think that it is not a bad idea to have the Society of Indexers's Occasional Papers on indexing legal, medical and biological, and biographical materials. (See the back of the October 1996 issue of The Indexer for info.on other publications, too, from them and the ASI Publications list--these papers are not available through ASI, but rather directly from the Society of Indexers. They do accept dollar checks.) Medical indexers will want MeSH (medical subject headings), etc. Each subject area has its own reference literature. I have a good dozen+ special dictionaries like The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology, HarperCollins Sociology Dictionary, Larousse Dictionary of World History, Larousse Dictionary of Science and Technology, etc. You will also want to get a good biographical dictionary like the new version of Webster's; Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary (1995, ISBN 0877797439). And yes, Ann Norcross is right--if you haven't discovered Amazon.com yet, you are in for a treat. They have a versatile search feature, along with book reviews for some of their materials. (You can use that search feature to easily find all the basic information on the books that I have mentioned here). You can get to their home page by writing http://www.amazon.com/ Ordering is easy (too easy, I think! when the bill comes!). Have fun. At 04:22 PM 1/13/97 -0500, Ann Norcross wrote: >Nancy Zibman wrote: > >> Suggestions, please for reference books (both types and titles) >> that every index should have on >> their shelf. Thanks, Nancy Zibman zibman@binah.cc.brandesi.edu > >Here's what I have (far from a complete library; I'm looking forward to >seeing other responses). BTW, I'm fooling around with including links in >e-mail, so if you find these annoying, let me know. If helpful, let me >know that, too, if you like. > >Recipes into Type : A Handbook for Cookbook Writers and Editors >Author: Dolores Simon, Joan Whitman >Hardcover, 258 pages >List: $27.50 >Publisher: Harpercollins >Publication date: July 1, 1993 >ISBN: 0062700340 >Buy it from Amazon.com: >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0062700340 >The Chicago Manual of Style >14th Edition >Hardcover, 921 pages >List: $40.00 >Published by Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) >Publication date: September 1, 1993 >ISBN: 0226103897 >Buy it from Amazon.com: >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0226103897 > >Indexing Books >Author: Mulvany, Nancy C. >Hardcover, 320 pages >List: $29.95 >Publisher: Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) >Publication date: February 1994 >ISBN: 0226550141 >Buy it from Amazon.com: >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0226550141 > >Ann Norcross, Crossover Information Services >mailto:norcross@ix.netcom.com > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:52:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith A. Jablonski" Subject: Re: Verbing Larry Baker entertained the following: >> I don't see why language shouldn't change as society changes. (And it changes naturally, doesn't it? No one announces once a year what that year's new words are.) What do you think? (I'm looking to get some responses here!! ;>) << Folks in the 18th century (i.e, erudite male scholars and authors) decided that English had reached its peak and more or less said so. It is from this time period that we get our "never end a sentence with a preposition" kinds of rules. Now 18th-century language is pretty fine, but, as Larry points out, language changes as people changes. As indexers, we need to be aware of the changes and flexible enough to include them in our work, when it is appropriate. The problem is when the idnexer can't tell if the "new" language is real or just a fad term. At PsycINFO, when we were revising the <> we did a lot of soul searching about the terms "codependency" and "empowerment." They originated in the popular culture and gradually began to show up in the more shcolarly journals covered by PscyINFO. We didn't know if the terms would "stick" or fade out, as others had. Until we decided to include them in the <> we made sure the user could access them by including them in the natural language keyphrase of the document. Another problem is with language having to do with technology. . . but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fishes. Judith Jablonski *************************************** Judith A. Jablonski School of Library and Information Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:33:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Critique v. criticise?? At 10:24 AM 1/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >The term that bugs me, which is not verbing a word, but > seems to >be weird language is: She is _looking to_ buy a car. I hear it used more all the > time. >Is it correct English? >Maybe it is just a regional thing that recently made it to the >south, so it sounds funny? It's a regionalism, certainly; being a Texan, I've been known to get exercised about "correct" English... Down here, I'd more likely say "I'm fixin' to buy a car." Extremely common construction, which -- in Dallas -- makes it "correct." Or at least acceptable. To me. >-- >Ann Truesdale Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:57:40 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Book on Indexing At 02:22 PM 1/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >I'm probably repeating a question from previous messages but.... > >What the best book on indexing that people can recommend? I know about >Nancy Mulvany's but I thought I saw on the ASI list that it was no longer >available. Please include author and publisher please so I can order from >my local bookstore. > >Sarah In addition to Nancy's book -- which I'm pretty sure *is* still available (try amazon.com if your local bookstore doesn't want to bother with it, or order it direct from Univ of Chicago Pr) -- I would strongly recommend Hans Wellisch's "Indexing from A to Z." A 2nd edition was published by H.W. Wilson in 1996. Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:57:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Verbing At 04:52 PM 1/13/97 -0600, you wrote: >language changes as people changes. Yep, it sure do! :D :D :D :D :D >Judith Jablonski Sorry, Judith -- I just couldn't resist! :) Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Tortora Subject: Re: printers again In a message dated 97-01-13 15:01:31 EST, you write: << I'm in the market for a non-dot matrix printer (that is, laser or inkjet), and am frustrated by having to order something without trying it out or seeing how it works first >> Laura, I have a Canon BJC-210 bubble jet printer and it serves my needs quite nicely. I printed envelopes yesterday for the first time and they look great. The only drawback is that the cartridges are around $30 each for color, somewhat less for black. The Canon series is worth investigating. There are various styles and as you might imagine, various prices. Mine was under $200. Good luck! Sue Tortora Tortora Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:40:02 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Sort order problem Diana wrote: >Don't know if this helps, but I did a book on Lacanian psychoanalysis >(origin of the Other concept) a few years ago. The editorial decision >(not mine), was to use the main heading Other, with subheadings, and >a cross reference which read: SEE ALSO small other. Is that the term, "small other"? This is a clinical book on Lacanian psychoanalysis, but there is no such term in it. Re: suggestion for further modification: I will think about how they may be so distinguished, but the difference, I don't think, is easily or felicitously summarized. The terms are defined in the text and I direct the reader there, of course. Will ruminate. Thanks for all your input. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:15:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: sending indexes via e-mail (again!) Hi folks. I've just had an unhappy experience sending an index via e-mail, and I wanted some shoulders to cry on and wanted to ask advice. Oddly enough, I sent a test index (a small sample from another index) to this client about a week ago, precisely to make sure it would work! And it did, so I had no reason to think it wouldn't work with my finished index. :-( Some details: The index was in MS Word. I use Eudora. On a Mac. Within Eudora, I did not have the BinHex box (in switches) checked, but I've just tried resending the index *with* the BinHex box checked. I won't know until the morning whether this second try worked. The really odd thing (translation: odd only to someone who doesn't know enough about how this works) is that the file I sent (the first try) did not come through on the client's end as a file attachment at all, even though I damn well sent it that way. It came through in the body of the e-mail message, and as gibberish at that. (Didn't someone else here recently report this very problem?!) In addition to resending the file with BinHex turned on, I am resending it 3 other ways: as a compressed but self-extracting archive, as a manually encoded BinHex file, and as a MacBinary encoded file. BTW, for those of you still exploring means of sending files to folks on different platforms, StuffIt Lite swears that the MacBinary translator solves the Mac/PC translation problem. Sorry if I'm repeating some stuff that others have already talked about. On the off chance I do get to go to Germany for a year, I'll need to get this method of sending indexes nailed down. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:26:12 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Book on Indexing >What the best book on indexing that people can recommend? I know about >Nancy Mulvany's but I thought I saw on the ASI list that it was no longer >available. Please include author and publisher please so I can order from >my local bookstore. > I don't know whether Mulvany's book is still available through ASI, but it's definitely still available from the publisher, hence available through bookstores. I ordered 15 copies last fall for my intro indexing course, and I've just ordered 15 more for the winter/spring course. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:30:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Critique v. criticise?? In a message dated 97-01-13 19:25:10 EST, you write: << >The term that bugs me, which is not verbing a word, but > seems to >be weird language is: She is _looking to_ buy a car. I hear it used more all the > time. >Is it correct English? >Maybe it is just a regional thing that recently made it to the >south, so it sounds funny? >> The funny thing is, I picked up "lookin' to buy" in the south many years ago. I found it to be a regionalism that was not used in the Northeast and definately not in California. Of course here, we say "way cool" and "dude." (When I say we, I don't mean me, of course.) Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:41:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Verbing You know, language does change naturally. But we in the U.S. accept that spontaneous change more readily than some other countries. I do a lot of work in Spanish now (although not as much as I like) and did my graduate work in that language. Spain has a Royal Academy of Language that controls the official language. They produce an official dictionary with all the accepted changes and make the decisions regarding the official Spanish language. Just recently (a few years ago), they dropped some letters from the alphabet, affecting anything and everything that had to be alphabetized. France also tries to control the language more. They were making it a crime to use any anglicized terms for a while. People were actually going to be fined for using terms like "disk." I forget what the French translation was, but it was long and awkward. I don't know how long all that lasted or if it is still in effect. Anyway, that is just a little piece of language trivia. Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:29:45 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Printers (Laser versus Dot Matrix) Greetings: This discussion on printers is really helpful, since I will also be looking at printers this week. I've assumed that a laser printer is better to have than a dot matrix, but would appreciate any thoughts on this issue before deciding which to purchase. Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts on this issue. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: sending indexes via e-mail (again!) Carol, This is _so_ frustrating! Hang in there. I found two potential clues in your post; I think the answer is that you _must_ compress the file before sending it. On Windows that means PKZip or comparable (creating a .zip file). On Mac that should be StuffIt (creating a .sit file, I think). > enough, I sent a test index (a small sample from another index) to this > client about a week ago, precisely to make sure it would work! And it did, The word "small" is the first sign of the possible trouble. Small files will indeed attach themselves with few problems. > works) is that the file I sent (the first try) did not come through on the > client's end as a file attachment at all, even though I damn well sent it > that way. It came through in the body of the e-mail message, and as > gibberish at that. (Didn't someone else here recently report this very > problem?!) Yup, and the above sentence is the other big hint. An e-mail full of embedded gibberish means the attached file is too big for the receiver and must be Zipped or Stuffed. > In addition to resending the file with BinHex turned on, I am resending it > 3 other ways: as a compressed but self-extracting archive, This one should work; let us know! I had the most horrible sinking feeling the time my publisher called and said, "Ann, the index is unusable. All the entries are flush left, and our DTP person says it is going to take her several hours to fix the indentation. Just wanted you to know." I was horrified. Turns out I had forgotten to tell Cindex that I wanted tags inserted when creating the RTF file. A simple, quick fix, a re-send, a few fervent prayers to the goddess, and all was well. :-) Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Printers (Laser versus Dot Matrix) At 05:29 AM 1/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >> >I've assumed that a laser printer is better to have than a dot matrix, >but would appreciate any thoughts on this issue before deciding which to >purchase. A year ago I splurged on a top-of-the-line laser printer: a Lexmark that prints 16 pages per minute. Print quality is excellent, not that that is terribly important for printing indexes. And I love printing a 50-page index in three minutes. But, my toner cost was $180 for six months -- $30 per month. On top of that, I have read (on the Lexmark home page) that starting and stopping for many small jobs is bad for the unit. I've gone back to using my dot matrix for printing really small stuff like e-mail messages and newsgroup articles and reserving the laser printer for final indexes. However, if I could have only one printer it would still be a laser. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:45:45 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: indexer's library >Suggestions, please for reference books (both types and titles) >that every index should have on >their shelf. Thanks, Nancy Zibman zibman@binah.cc.brandesi.edu It's going to depend an awful lot on what kind of indexing you do (or want to do), but here are the general ones I find essential: types: English dictionary, biographical dictionary, atlas, indexing book, thesaurus mine: Eng. dict.: Webster's 10th Collegiate biog. dict.: Cambridge Biographical Dictionary atlas: oops, can't find it just now (how does one lose such a huge book?) indexing book: Indexing Books, by Mulvany Indexing from A to Z, by Wellisch thesaurus: The Synonym Finder other: Chicago Manual of Style Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy Oxford Dictionary of Art Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature Grolier Encyclopedia CD-ROM 21st Century Dictionary of Acronyms and Abbreviations The Persons, Places, & Things Spelling Dictionary, by Paxson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:45:53 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Verbing >Just my own amateur postulation. I'm no linguist. Just an editor who works with >words every day. I don't see why language shouldn't change as society changes. >(And it changes naturally, doesn't it? No one announces once a year what that >year's new words are.) What do you think? (I'm looking to get some responses >here!! ;>) That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. As a fellow editor (and an indexer), I have a hard time accepting these changes. I still wince when I hear or read "he is hoping to medal" or "this is a new way to office." Yech! I also wince at such regionalisms as "Would you like to go with?" Yet I have to admit that (a) I've gotten used to "access" and "critique" as verbs (esp. now that "criticize" is more often restricted to negative criticism) and (b) it makes sense that ordinary language users (by which I mean to exclude editors ;-) ) use shortcuts for whatever phrases currently get heavy use. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:41:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Re: Verbing In a message dated 97-01-13 16:04:49 EST, Larry writes: > I don't see why language shouldn't change as society changes. > (And it changes naturally, doesn't it? No one announces once a year what > that > year's new words are.) What do you think? (I'm looking to get some responses > here!! ;>) I agree with you absolutely. One change that I see coming along is the use of "their" to replace the unwieldy "his or her," as in "Everyone should proofread their work." I know this is incorrect in number, but it solves a current social-linguistic problem--how to make language inclusive without making it longer--it is already common in speech, and I don't see why it shouldn't eventually make its way into proper written English. We'll just have to change the grammar rule somewhat, which has certainly been done before. My $.02. Jenny Rowe Rowe Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:45:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Versus? Sarah Allen Smith wrote: >Anyway, in this sample I noticed several subentries which began with >"versus" and which all came at the end (sorted under "versus"). This >seemed kind of counterintuitive to me. "Versus" seems to be something >you'd want to ignore while sorting, like "and" or "in." > >Can someone please direct me to some rule which might clear this up for >me, or something from your own experience? "Versus" is a word that I've >almost never used in an index (in fact I can't think of a single instance >of it so far) but you never know when something new will come up. I often use versus (mostly in academic books) when the relationship between two concepts is one of clear contrast: Christianity, vs. Buddhism. I abbreviate it as "vs." and treat it as a preposition to be ignored in alphabetizing. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:25:07 -0700 Reply-To: ljnelson@rt66.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Nelson Subject: Re: printers again Hello all, The printer question comes up every now and again, some people like this brand, some prefer that. I had a Canon BJC4000 for 18 months, until finally getting so fed up, I retired it and went out and got an HP Deskjet 870Cse. Definitely more expensive ($499 at Best Buy), but well worth the extra money. A laser printer is probably better for professional purposes but as I print both work related things and children's birthday party invitations (and right now can only afford one printer), a color printer was important to me. I'm impressed with the quality of the black only print, nearly as good as any laser I've seen and the color quality with this HP is terrific as well. It's quite fast, and even though the ink cartridge is in the $30 range, the entire family has used it to print many things since we got it, including 50 two page Christmas letters, with several color pictures and have yet to have to replace the cartridge. This was certainly not the case with the Canon, I was constantly running out of ink, and usually when it was the least convenient. I had many problems with the Canon, including it occasionally deciding of it's own accord, to print everything in green, or blue, or sometimes, just for fun I suppose, purple. The HP 870Cse has a decisive way of pulling in the paper, with great solid sounding noises. It will print just as easily on card stock and evelopes including the small ones designed for invitations. As you can probably tell, I'm pleased with my HP printer, and even though I sound like a commercial, I'm not affiliated with HP in any way. Linda Nelson Sedillo Hill Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:33:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Mashing Anne Truesdale wrote: A friend of mine from MD used to get a big kick out of the Georgia guys in school with us. They would say, "Mash on that elevator button again". She said in MD they mashed potatoes but not elevator buttons! In Nottingham (Midlands, UK, just in case there are others I don't know about), and probably elsewhere, they say 'mashing tea' for making tea. When my first husband, who came from Nottingham, took me to meet his mother for the first time, almost her first words were, 'Shall I mash?' As a Londoner, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about. Christine Christine Shuttleworth Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (44 181) 749 8797 email 106234.1745@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:45:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tom Brown Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: >I'm in the market for a non-dot matrix printer . . . >William Meisheid replied: >Considering all your requirements you can't go wrong with any of >the HP laser printers. . . . I'm not sure if HP laser printers would present the problem that I encountered with an an HP820Cse inkjet. I tried it out through a demo setup in the store, and found it very satisfactory with regard to print quality. On the outside of the box it is described as being designed exclusively for Windows 3.x or 95, but capable of printing from DOS applications. So far I have not succeeded in printing from my WordPerfect 6.1 for DOS, or any of my other DOS applications. I've scanned the list of HP drivers available from WordPerfect, and that model is not listed yet. My point is that if you want to print from DOS applications, you should investigate the availability of print drivers for the printer model you are considering. Or perhaps someone on the list can suggest a work-around for printing from DOS applications with a Windows-only printer? ____ /om Tom Brown tombrown@itop1.us.dg.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:47:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Printers (Laser versus Dot Matrix) At 05:29 AM 1/13/97 -0800, Willa MacAllen wrote: . >I've assumed that a laser printer is better to have than a dot matrix, >but would appreciate any thoughts on this issue before deciding which to >purchase. If you've never used a laser, Willa, you will be amazed at the silence! You will also love the extraordinarily good print quality. While you're doing text and not graphics (especially for printing indexes), the sharpness and blackness of the letters is extremely good. And friends who have older models (the HP II was and still is a workhorse) swear by them. Some are ten years old and still work perfectly with nary a service call. I have a HP 4-MP which is about three years old and has been excellent. I also have a color bubble jet for other purposes which is good as well (and considerably less expensive). And I bought my husband a Canon bubblejet 200 (black ink only) for $112 about six months ago that he's in love with! It's tiny, nearly silent, and produces attractive printed pages. I would recommend either Canon or HP for reliability and quality. Once you've tried anything else, a dot matrix is unbearable for regular daily use. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:12:52 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: happy ending to e-mail story I'm happy to say that that index I posted about yesterday went through OK this morning. I thought I'd post again for the benefit of other Eudora users. Simply choosing BinHex in the switches window did the trick. The index was in MS Word (for the Mac) and didn't require any other "treatment." Some people suggested I send the file in ASCII format, but then I still would have had to sent a hard copy via FedEx, because a text-only file strips out formatting, itals, and so on. Next I'm going to check out newer versions of Eudora (including the commercial version) to see what other encryption/compression is available. Thanks y'all. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:18:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Printers (Laser versus Dot Matrix) In a message dated 97-01-14 06:16:33 EST, Willa wrote: > I've assumed that a laser printer is better to have than a dot matrix, > but would appreciate any thoughts on this issue before deciding which to > purchase. Willa, They *still* sell dot matrix printers? ;-D These are what I see as the pros and cons of both types of printers. Dot matrix: Advantage is that it is very cheap to purchase and operate, ribbons costing only a few bucks. Disadvantages are that they are noisy (being that they are impact printers) and the print quality is nowhere near that of a laser or bubble jet printer. If you buy a 24-pin printer, the output approaches... but doesn't quite reach... letter quality. Laser-printed output is so ubiquitous these days, I wouldn't even consider sending a business letter printed from a 24-pin machine. (Now, you aren't even thinking about a 9-pin machine, are you? I gave mine away to my little nephew years ago along with an XT, and even *he* has outgrown that system. ;-D) Laser: Advantage is that the output is business-quality, even from a 300 dpi printer (low end these days). Another is that you can talk on the phone with clients while printing because you have only a soft hum and a whoosh, whereas the clackety-clack of a dot matrix is LOUD (at least to me). Yet another advantage is print speed. Ten ppm (for pure text) is quite reasonable, IMHO. Disadvantage is the cost, but you can get a decent one for $600 or perhaps less. Also, the cost of replacement cartridges (or toner as in the brand I use) can be hefty, depending on the brand and how much you print. Dick's post is a case in point. Another disadvantage of laser printers is the ozone produced when printing, especially during large print jobs. I have to leave my office, even when the window is open, if I'm printing more than 20 pages. This is definitely a consideration if you have asthma or other respiratory problems as ozone is definitely a respiratory irritant (in addition to causing headaches). Have you considered a third option, which falls in between dot matrix and laser printers; i.e., bubble jet printers? With the ones on the market these days, you can definitely achieve letter-quality output for much less cost than a laser printer. As for the cost of replacement ink cartridges, perhaps bubble jet owners on the list can address that. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:32:19 -0500 Reply-To: Martin_Ahermaa@tvo.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martin Ahermaa Organization: TVOntario's Online System Subject: Re: sending indexes via e-mail (again!) Ann Norcross wrote: On Mac that should be StuffIt (creating a .sit file, I think). There is a small drag and drop Stuffit application called Drop Stuff [shareware] that will stuff your file for you. Hope this helps, Martin Ahermaa Toronto, Canada. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:12:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: sending indexes via e-mail (again!) >> In an earlier message, I think Carol said: C> ... the file I sent (the first try) did not come through on the client's end C> as a file attachment at all, even though I damn well sent it that way. It C> came through in the body of the e-mail message, and as gibberish at C> that. (Didn't someone else here recently report this very problem?!) >> On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:45:04 -0500, Ann said: A> Yup, and the above sentence is the other big hint. An e-mail full of A> embedded gibberish means the attached file is too big for the receiver and A> must be Zipped or Stuffed. You might have to run some type of encoding program any time your mail includes a character that can't be represented in 7-bit ASCII. In other words, if you're using anything but the alphanumeric or punctuation keys on a regular keyboard. The nifty things in most word-processors (bold, italic, etc.) are almost always represented by a character with the highest bit on. A lot of older mail-delivery packages assume 8-bit characters have the highest bit off, and they get really upset with messages that break this rule. I think a lot of this came from early lack of agreement on what given special 8-bit characters meant; the only thing close to a standard was 7-bit ASCII. If you're using the Eudora mailer, try using UUENCODE on your message body. Hope this helps... -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 I worked as a lumberjack for a lumber company. All of the trees were just 10 feet high and 1/4 inch thick. We made paneling. --Steven Wright wannabe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:13:43 -0500 Reply-To: tgale@julian.uwo.ca Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tom Gale Organization: GSLIS Subject: Automatic Indexing Hello, I'm part of a research group at the Unviersity of Western Ontario and we're interested in examining Indexing software. At the moment, we are particularly interested in examining software that automatically generate a "back of the book" style of index. We are aware of the problems with using this sort of software when compiling an index or thesaurus, but we are interested in examining and testing these types of products. Many of the products I have encountered so far have claimed to "automatically index" documents, but the majority only generate word frequency indexes that are shielded from users and function with search engines. We are interested in an product that creates indexes one can access directly and perhaps use to form queries. Aside from the Iconovex line of products (AnchorPage, WebAnchor, and Indexicon) I haven't been able to find very many products that claim to do this. Can anyone on the list provide me with a list of products that perform this function? If you know of any and could e-mail me their URLs, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, and/or addresses, I'd appreciate it very much. If you are afraid to clutter the list with them, please e mail them to me privately. Thank you. -- ...Tom Gale GSLIS University of Western Ontario London, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: CHAT: New meaning for "computer dating" Pardon the off-topic posting, but this is weird even by my standards. LOVE IN THE TIME OF COMPUTER CHIPS...[Business Week, page 91, 1/20/97] Hopeful singles might soon be wearing electronic hearts on their sleeves or in their jewelry. In March, Dutch giant Philips Electronics plans to unveil examples of a "singles chip" that could make surfing the social web faster than surfing the Net. At Philips' British research center in Redhill, Surrey, Simon R. Turner's Interactive Systems Group is developing a tiny matchmaking chip, complete with a radio, that could be concealed in earrings or tiepins in time for New Century's Eve parties. Program it with your likes, dislikes, and personality traits, and when you walk into a singles bar, the chip would survey its silicon fellows and beep if it spots a compatible profile. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:52:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Printers (Laser versus Dot Matrix) At 09:34 AM 1/14/97 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >A year ago I splurged on a top-of-the-line laser printer: a Lexmark that >prints 16 pages per minute. Print quality is excellent, not that that is >terribly important for printing indexes. And I love printing a 50-page >index in three minutes. But, my toner cost was $180 for six months -- $30 >per month. On top of that, I have read (on the Lexmark home page) that >starting and stopping for many small jobs is bad for the unit. Wow, Dick, this is definitely excessive toner usage! I buy one cartridge a year (or less) for my HP-4 MP, and I regularly exceed its 2500+ copy limit with no discernible degradation in reproduction. The cartridges cost between $70 and $90 (depending on whether I can find them on sale). Now, my unit does not print 50 pages in three minutes (it's probably more like ten minutes), but then I rarely have to print 50 pages at a time. Most of my indexes are under 35 pages. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:01:29 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Real-time chat for indexers After investigation, I've decided that the best trade-off between simplicity and general availability is met by the Yahoo chat system at http://chat.yahoo.com This will work for Mac users and also (at a pinch) text-based systems. The instructions available at the site should allow most users to download and set up software appropriate for their system(s). The chat channels are created ad hoc by the first user to join one, so if you are the first one on you will need to create a channel - I suggest creating it in the General Discussion section and calling it indexers. Subsequent arrivals can then join that channel and keep the conversation going. If there are unwanted intrusions we can consider making the channel private later. If you have any difficulties or want more information, let me know and I'll try and help. I'm still new to this approach myself, however. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:30:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: happy ending to e-mail story I am delighted with Carol's success. I have been following this thread with great interest, as I will be [attempting] to send my first index by email. I have commercial Eudora. I am PC I can send the index (to a Mac user) in RTF. Anyone on the list have experience with this situation? TIA, Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:31:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: happy ending to e-mail story At 02:12 PM 1/14/97 -0600, you wrote: >Next I'm going to >check out newer versions of Eudora (including the commercial version) to >see what other encryption/compression is available. > >Thanks y'all. Cheers, > >Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My >Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. >Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer By all means, if you haven't seen Eudora Lite 3.0, go get a copy! (It's actually 3.0.1 now...) You can grab it on the Web from Tucows or from Stroud's Winsock software site. The interface is somewhat different and a good deal easier to use and there's a thorough HELP facility now (which used to be available only with Eudora Pro). The main differences with Pro seem to be inclusion of a spell checker, multiple nickname files, and more complex mail filters -- all of which I can do without just fine. Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:26:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Storing software How do you handle all the crap associated with the software on your computer? If you bought your machine with the operating system and a set of applications already installed and you've added nothing but your indexing software, this is probably not a problem for you but I add a couple of dozen new apps per year and have a devil of a time storing the disks, CDs, manuals, etc. Some apps come with real books that fit on a bookshelf. Others come with things more like pamphlets or even fold-out cards. Odd sizes, they don't fit on shelves. The storage medium (disks or CDs) get separated from the documentation. When I find one I can't find the other. I've tried filing things in binders with special zippered pages to hold both storage media and small docs. I've tried hanging folders in a file drawer. I've tried zip lock food storage bags tossed willy nilly into a laundry basket. I have any number of disk, tape, and CD-ROM storage containers. At the moment, I am using all of the above strategies and am not happy with the results. And don't get me started on how to save and organize all the registration numbers and tech support phoine numbers involved. I usually write any registration numbers on the diskettes, so if I have to reinstall I can find the number. Tech support numbers I put in my Lotus Organizer, filed by company name. Lately, there are sometimes URLs also associated with products as manufacturers provide Web pages and online tech support. Anyone have a system they are happy with? Dick Evans