From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 26-NOV-1997 06:16:59.44 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711B" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:13:01 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:29:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ CHAT Don't forget the ICQ Chat Sat, 7:00 Cental Time Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:44:00 -0800 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS I'm a recovering programmer. Some of the qualities that appealed to me in programmer I also find in indexing: the need for attention to detail and concentration, working with language - using the correct syntax and word for the purpose, researching and analyzing tough problems, the ability to use my creative side in finding that simple but elegant solution, providing a functional service for the end-users. Caroline... I loved the lyrics! Regards, Lucie Haskins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:34:24 -0700 > From: Caroline Parks > Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS > > Thank you, Elsa! I truly needed a good laugh just at the moment your post > came through! > > For the virtual water cooler: > > I've often wondered, are many of us indexers recovering programmers? I > never worked a real job (as opposed to student internships) as a > programmer, but I loved the process of programming; for me it was a very > intuitive process. Indexing has a similar feeling -- I'd be hard pressed > to explain exactly what I do to build a good index -- and I even find > myself unravelling knotty indexes in my dreams, just as I used to do with > elusive programs. > > Caroline > > ____________________________ > > Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence > Indexing and Editorial Services > > Tijeras, NM > 505-286-2738 > caroline@rt66.com > > ------------------------------ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:48:25 -0800 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS Sorry for the incorrect credit on my previous memo... Elsa, thank you for sharing the lyrics. And... I noticed that I mistakenly wrote "programmer" instead of "programming" in my previous message. A little embarrassing, especially when the message discussed the need for attention to detail. I love the little ways the universe provides lessons in humility. Lucie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:59:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael C. Rossa" Subject: Newby Gets Good News I've had something exciting happen that I'd like to share with y'all. This past week I received copies of the two books that I indexed for a new client in August and September. I had asked for portfolio copies and credit in the books, and the editor said they had never given credit before but he *supposed* I could get credit on the title page. Of course, I wasn't sure he would really do it, but, sure enough, he came through! That's exciting enough (my first credits), but what really astounded me was that the author of the better book mentioned me in his acknowledgments! He said "Thanks to Michael Rossa's stalwart efforts in indexing, the book has become user friendly." Imagine! Did that pick me up! I think that must be the best thing an indexer can hear. Isn't that really our mission? This is a book on pregnancy, and the author is an OB/GYN and professor of medicine at UT. I'm a full-time freelancer, and I wanted to post this to show other new indexers that really exciting things can happen to balance the tribulations of this business, and also to join the many others in thanking all the members of the list who have helped and encouraged us for so long. THANKS :-) Have a great week. I'm going to go read my acknowledgment again! :-) Mike 0000,0000,ffff* * * * * * * * Michael C. Rossa Allied Editorial (972) 267-2537 (972) 267-2538 Fax rossa@flash.net * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes The following was taken from the log of the AOL Bookindexer's Chat last Monday. I thought maybe some of you would have some input or experience in this. The question is. Can you index a book that originally didn't have an index, mainly fiction, and publish and distribute it yourself as a stand-alone index without the author or publishers permission? Or do you have to have their permission? I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. She said that short phrases were not copyrighted no title of books. I explained to her that it would contain several words from different pages of the book but none that would be consider a long phrase at the most probably 7 or 8 an normally one or two. She advised me to ask a lawyer. You would think they would know there own laws. Anyway I am at present considering indexing classic fictions and if the author, publisher, or Cliffs Notes doesn't want to publish it I will publish it myself in a series similar to Cliffs Notes but it will only contain the index. Do I have to have the author or publisher's permission to do this since I am the one creating the index? AOL Bookindexer's Chat 11/3/97 Bookindexr: Did any of you see the remark by Deborah Shaw (Shawd@mindspring) She said that she thought it was illegal to print an index without the authors permission CccJlc: Book author or index author? Bookindexr: Book author Mgendx: Yes book, I saw that. Bookindexr: It seems I have read somewhere where you could Mgendx: It was a good point. I'm not sure if it is correct, but I would be curious. Lawrenc846: For items beyond copyright date, I'm sure there is no problem. Mgendx: I know that when writing abstracts, I have to be careful not to "lift" from the article Lawrenc846: That is for books with an expired copyright. Indexlady: Ignorance here...how does one know if copyright has expire d? Bookindexr: But you are not actually copy the book itself I am going to call the copy right people and ask Lawrenc846: I don't know the exact number of years but at least 70 years since initial publishing. Mgendx: How long does a copyright last? I think there is a limit of some sort Indexlady: Copy right people should be on internet, right? Mgendx: Lawrence - can you read my mind? Mgendx: You answer questions as I type them. Bookindexr: Hmm maybe they are. I'll check into it. I have talked to them several times before. CccJlc: Mel-I don't quote any part of the articles I abstract, hardly even use the same words. Lawrenc846: For books still in print, I think it is a matter of what you produce. Provide added value and you are the author. REvans4: Try http://www.benedict.com/ Bookindexr: From what they have told me in the past the copy right protect a person's creative work. If you are the one creating the index it looks you would have the copy right for it. Mgendx: Ccc - I never quote, but there are times when I have to check to be sure Lawrenc846: In other words are you just doing an index or some sort of tool that is more than just an index. REvans4: Also http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/projects/copyright/index. html Mgendx: I don't have the same string or words in my abstract. CccJlc: Susan-who do you contact? Mgendx: I think the legal limit is 5 consecutive words. Indexlady: Thanks, Dick! Lawrenc846: That is my reading on it anyway. I'm not a copyright lawyer. CccJlc: I hadn't heard that exact number before...just that it could be a sentence here and there. Mgendx: "string or words" = string OF words Lawrenc846: Yes, I would imagine the indexer has the copyright but the publisher has the final say on publication. REvans4: And http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ Bookindexr: I have the number written down at work. I will get it tomorrow. Mgendx: I mean to check that. I'm sure that if it's a list of some sort, some leeway is permissible. Lawrenc846: And the publisher would want to contact the author. REvans4: BTW, my favorite search engine these days is Northern Ligh ts Search at http://www.nlsearch.c REvans4: I get the most useful hits on topics like this. CccJlc: Surely you can't get into trouble with an index as part of the book you need to use the same terminology, right? Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 12:04 PM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. I agrre with you that the answer is not clear cut. Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star Trek folks would have something to say about that. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:43:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Programmers in indexing I was a programmer for many years until the obscure language I used became more or less obsolete. I think there are some parallels between the two endeavors. A systematic approach to tasks is helpful for both. Another helpful ability, especially while editing an index, is being able to focus on one and only one of several concurrent problems. When I began programming someone of note in the field stated if he could apply only one test criteria to a prospective programmer it would be the ability to knit, which requires meticulous attention to detail and the repetition of sets of instructional steps. Again, I think some of that carries over to indexing. My $.02 Craig Brown ===================================== The Last Word Indexing (314)352-9094 lastword@i1.net ===================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:19:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Mullinix Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <199711081702.MAA04618@ kis.net> Consider this: "An index is not a mere appendage to a book. Itg is a separate and distinct written document. Indexes are written, not generated. As creative, authored works, indexes are granted copyright registration. -- Mulvany, Indexing Books At 12:04 PM 11/08/97 -0500, you wrote: >The following was taken from the log of the AOL Bookindexer's Chat last >Monday. I thought maybe some of you would have some input or experience in >this. > >The question is. Can you index a book that originally didn't have an index, >mainly fiction, and publish and distribute it yourself as a stand-alone index >without the author or publishers permission? Or do you have to have their >permission? > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: jill@bznet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Lasker Subject: Re: Newby Gets Good News Congrats! It's nice to see your enthusiasm and you should feel GREAT! A lurker -- Jill Lasker jill@bznet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:34:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In a message dated 97-11-08 12:51:39 EST, you write: << Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star Trek folks would have something to say about that. >> I think with the Star Trek example, you would encounter the same types of problems you would with any other licensed product. You would definately have problems. You would have to get licensing or authorization to do something with it, or maybe pitch yourself and get hired. BUT, with the classics and various fictional literature that are not licensed, I don't think it would be as problematic. I'm just comparing the two; I have no idea how problematic it would be either way. However, you might contact Cliff Notes people to find out what they go through. I do know a freelance permissions expert. If you would like to contact me privately, I can get you in touch with her. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:39:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 12:04 PM 11/8/1997 -0500, Susan Wilkerson wrote: >The question is. Can you index a book that originally didn't have an index, >mainly fiction, and publish and distribute it yourself as a stand-alone index >without the author or publishers permission? Or do you have to have their >permission? Yes, you can do this, from a legal standpoint. There is nothing in copyright law that prohibits making an index of a previously published work, as long as you don't exceed "fair use" standards, which are quite lenient in terms of approximate word count (anywhere from 100-300, roughly, depending on the length of the original work), and as long as you don't damage the owner's right to profit from his or her work. You'd actually be ADDING to the value, rather than detracting from it. However, I wouldn't do this for several reasons. One, you have a much better change of marketing such an index if it is recommended by the author or the publisher of the original book...or published by the same firm. Two, the cooperation of the author can be invaluable to an indexer, especially for such a complex project. Why not include the author? Finally, it seems slightly unethical (though certainly not illegal) to proceed with such a project without involving the author of the original work. I'd certainly do it if the author were dead, but otherwise I'd want to include him or her in the project. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:39:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 12:37 PM 11/8/1997 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek >novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star >Trek folks would have something to say about that. The term, "Star Trek," may very well be copyrighted or trademarked, Dick, which means that the owner of that mark can control the use of the term. IMO this is a different situation from indexing, say, "1001 Arabian Nights," and publishing the index/concordance. What I'm trying to say is that you've brought up what appears to be a trademark issue, which is different from the issue of whether or not a person can index a work not his own and then sell the index. I think THAT issue is pretty clear-cut...you can do it, so long as you do not affect the original author's ability to profit from his or her work. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:51:11 -0600 Reply-To: bookend@theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Regarding the comment about publishing an unsolicited index if the author of the original work is dead - don't forget about the heirs! Recently there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about Maslow's classic theories about management. The article mentioned that the book was out of print but was available on the Internet. It turned out that an individual, acting by himself, typed most of the text onto the Web so others could read and learn from it. He didn't ask for permission. Then one of Maslow's heirs got wind of the Web page and demanded thousands of dollars in compensation for the 'piracy.' The poor man is on the verge of financial ruin just from the legal fight. It seems intuitively wrong that an index can be a stand alone, creative work. It would not exist without the original piece of fiction or nonfiction. You can't claim sole intellectual right to the content when it is dependent on some one else's creativity. Susan Hernandez ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 05:51 PM 11/8/1997 -0600, Susan Danzi Hernandez wrote: >Regarding the comment about publishing an unsolicited index if the >author of the original work is dead - don't forget about the heirs! >Recently there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about Maslow's >classic theories about management. The article mentioned that the book was >out of print but was available on the Internet. It turned out that an >individual, acting by himself, typed most of the text onto the Web so >others could read and learn from it. He didn't ask for permission. Then >one of Maslow's heirs got wind of the Web page and demanded thousands of >dollars in compensation for the 'piracy.' The poor man is on the verge of >financial ruin just from the legal fight. That, IMO, is a clear violation of copyright and Maslow's heirs had a perfect right to sue (assuming that they owned the copyright). This is a good example of how, with the best of intentions, one can compromise a copyright owner's ability to profit from his or her work. If there is a great demand for this particular work by Maslow, let the copyright owners republish it and reap the financial rewwards. If another writer wants to include lengthy quotes or excerpts in his or her book, let that writer contact the copyright holder and ask permission (and pay whatever reasonable fee that is required). Most out-of-print books are available to readers one way or another...either secondhand bookstores, libraries, or reference centers. Entering a whole book on the Internet may seem like it's doing a service to the public, but it actually does a DISservice to the owners of the work in queston. >It seems intuitively wrong that an index can be a stand alone, >creative work. It would not exist without the original piece of fiction or >nonfiction. You can't claim sole intellectual right to the content when it >is dependent on some one else's creativity. Whether it seems intutitively correct or not, indexes are considered separate, creative works that can be registered with the U.S. Copyright Office. Most of us who do back-of-the-book indexing don't normally bother to negotiate copyright ownership with the entity that hires us to create an index (the publisher of the book, usually), but this can be an issue if the index itself has particular value as a separate entity. This would be vitally important, IMO, in the case of an index to a well-known work of fiction, where the index had real sales potential as a separate entity. Probably millions of people own _A Tale of Two Cities_, for example, and an index to that work has great appeal and sales potential. An index can be compared to drawings or photographs that illustrate a book. In one sense, they are dependent on the content of the book (if they were commissioned especially for that work), and you might think they are not "original" or copyrightable...but they are. And if they were selected separately because they relate to the subject of the work, then the author or publisher pays the artist a fee for use of his or her copyrighted material...just as if the writer had purchased the rights to reprint a lengthy excerpt from another book. While we don't normally think of an index as a stand-alone creative work, in many senses it is--or can be. This is particularly true as more and more electronic publishing takes place, where design of an index or keywording for access by search engines is a vital part of the actual publication process. The telephone book, for example, is nothing more than a giant index of phone numbers and addresses. It's a vital tool that stands alone, and it's copyrighted. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:04:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In a message dated 97-11-08 17:55:02 EST, you write: << Why not include the author? Finally, it seems slightly unethical (though certainly not illegal) to proceed with such a project without involving the author of the original work. I'd certainly do it if the author were dead, but otherwise I'd want to include him or her in the project. >> I wrote: <> If the author doesn't want or feel the need for an index I don't see why it would be unethical to produce one one my own? Am I thinking about this all wrong? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Copyright Laws for Stand Alone Indexes Bookindexr: Did any of you see the remark by Deborah Shaw (Shawd@mindspring) She said that she thought it was illegal to print an index without the authors permission CccJlc: Book author or index author? Bookindexr: Book author Mgendx: Yes book, I saw that. Bookindexr: It seems I have read somewhere where you could Mgendx: It was a good point. I'm not sure if it is correct, but I would be curious. Lawrenc846: For items beyond copyright date, I'm sure there is no problem. Mgendx: I know that when writing abstracts, I have to be careful not to "lift" from the article Lawrenc846:That is for books with an expired copyright. Indexlady: Ignorance here...how does one know if copyright has expired? Bookindexr: But you are not actually copy the book itself I am going to call the copy right people and ask Lawrenc846:I don't know the exact number of years but at least 70 years since initial publishing. Mgendx: How long does a copyright last? I think there is a limit of some sort Indexlady: Copy right people should be on internet, right? Mgendx: Lawrence - can you read my mind? Mgendx: You answer questions as I type them. Bookindexr: Hmm maybe they are. I'll check into it. I have talked to them several times before. CccJlc: Mel-I don't quote any part of the articles I abstract, hardly even use the same words. Lawrenc846:For books still in print, I think it is a matter of what you produce. Provide added value and you are REvans4: Try http://www.benedict.com/ Lawrenc846: the author. Bookindexr: From what they have told me in the past the copy right protect a person's creative work. If you are the one creating the index it looks you would have the copy right for it. Mgendx: Ccc - I never quote, but there are times when I have to check to be sure Lawrenc846: In other words are you just doing an index or some sort of tool that is more than just an index. REvans4: Also http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/projects/copyright/index.html Mgendx: I don't have the same string or words in my abstract. CccJlc: Susan-who do you contact? Mgendx: I think the legal limit is 5 consecutive words. Indexlady: Thanks, Dick! Lawrenc846: That is my reading on it anyway. I'm not a copyright lawyer. CccJlc: I hadn't heard that exact number before...just that it could be a sentence here and there. Mgendx: "string or words" = string OF words Lawrenc846: Yes, I would imagine the indexer has the copyright but the publisher has the final say on publication. REvans4: And http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ Bookindexr: I have the number written down at work. I will get it tomorrow. Mgendx: I mean to check that. I'm sure that if it's a list of some sort, some leeway is permissible. Lawrenc846: And the publisher would want to contact the author. REvans4: BTW, my favorite search engine these days is Northern Lights Sea rch at http://www.nlsearch.c REvans4: I get the most useful hits on topics like this. CccJlc: Surely you can't get into trouble with an index as part of the book you need to use the same terminology, right? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:59:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Newby Gets Good News In-Reply-To: <199711081458.JAA06654@beavis.inetdirect.net> >I'm a full-time freelancer, and I wanted to post this to show other new >indexers > that really exciting things can happen to balance the tribulations of this > business, and also to join the many others in thanking all the members of the > list who have helped and encouraged us for so long. THANKS :-) > > >Have a great week. I'm going to go read my acknowledgment again! :-) > > >Mike > Congratulations, Mike! You're an inspiration, and you've set an important example, too. Thanks! Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -- H. P. Lovecraft ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Newby Gets Good News Mike, Congratulations. Sometimes we all just gotta crow. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:19:39 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: news from New England 1) The Massachusetts chapter of ASI has a new feature on the chapter's web page. We list our members (with permission) and their indexing services. Please visit our site, and be sure to check our list of professional indexers. You can find us at this address: http://www.marisol.com/maasi/maasi.htm To add your name (Mass. chapter members only), please contact the web-master, Marilyn Rowland. 2) Thirty three indexers enjoyed an all-day workshop with DoMi Stauber yesterday. More on this and other chapter activities can be found in Keywords and on the web-page. Barbara Stroup President, Mass. Chapter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Per Entry Rates Let Bonnie know that you need an issue. There are a problem with some nondelivery, but everyone should have received by now. Many of the problems with KeyWords should be resolved by early 1998. Cynthia Bertelson is the new editor. By the way, I just got home from board and you can pass the word that Carolina is now the latest chapter. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:05:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 11:04 PM 11/8/1997 -0500, Susan Wilkerson wrote: >If the author doesn't want or feel the need for an index I don't see why it >would be unethical to produce one one my own? Am I thinking about this all >wrong? Since the authors of most classical fiction are long since dead, I don't see that there's a problem with this at all. In fact, my own thoughts about indexing fiction have revolved around MY favorite [dead] authors and their works. I was thinking specifically of situations where the author is living, and where I'd naturally ask for input and cooperation from him or her. I can see good sales potential for an index to, say, _Moby Dick_ or some other classical work that is long and complex. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:28:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: cookbook index To all: My sister sent me the following after I complained about a good cookbook having a lousy index. > > From the IC [Inglenook Cookbook, 1906]: > > " These recipes are numbered from one to one thousand, consecutively, and > are grouped according to the following index. To find a recipe, consult the > general index and then look it up between the numbers given after the > departments. To fix its place in the book, remember the number." > > INDEX Example > > Soups---1-32 > Fish, oysters and Game---33 to 50 > Both the recipes and the pages are numbered, the index lists the recipe > number. I suppose it's better than nothing. Mel --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: v. pie, quote Date: 97-11-07 23:04:19 EST From: Beadbe To: Mgendx Vinegar Pie.--Take 1 cup sorghum, 1 cup of sugar, 1cup of flour, 1 teaspoonful of soda, 1 teaspoonful each of cloves and cinnamon, 1 cup of vinegar, and 4 cups of water. Bake with undercrust andstrips of crust on top. This makes four pies.--Sister Stella G. Turner, Iliff, Colo. Vinegar Pie.--Take 1 egg, 1 heaping tablespoonful of flour, 1 teacupful of sugar. Beat all well together, then add vinegat to make it taste real sharp, ann 1 cup of cold water; flavor with lemon essence and bake with two crusts. Sister Cora B. Byer, Albert City, Iowa. These are from the book that ston page nine. Cora's vinegar pie in also in the Inglenook Cookbook that has a cover. It is recipe # 664. From the IC: " These recipes are numbered from one to one thousand, consecutively, and are grouped according to the following index. To find a recipe, consult the general index and then look it up between the numbers given after the departments. To fix its place in the book, remember the number." INDEX Example Soups---1-32 Fish, oysters and Game---33 to 50 Both the recipes and the pages are numbered, the index lists the recipe number. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:37:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: sorry My apologies for botching my forward of the cookbook index quote. If anyone tries the vinegar pie recipe, let me know how it turns out. Mel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <199711081737.MAA71138@rs8.loc.gov> > >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was > >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. In other words, she seems to be saying it is ok and is wondering why you thought otherwise, no? > Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek > novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star > Trek folks would have something to say about that. Aiyaiyai, didn't we go through this a few months ago? It is not a violation of copyright to index, summarize, or abstract another work. Think "creativity"--that is what is protected. One cannot ***at present*** copyright names, dates, facts, etc. "Columbus discovered America in 1492" is a fact and cannot be copyrighted. "In fourteen hundred and ninety-two//Columbus sailed the ocean blue" is "creative" and can be copyrighted. But the individual "indexable" terms (e.g., Columbus, 1492, ocean blue) are not copyrightable and can certainly be indexed, if one wishes. As for Star Trek, the name/character"James T. Kirk" cannot be copyrighted (trademark, however, is another issue) nor can the titles of various episodes, names of other characters, etc. be copyrighted. And am willing to bet the that the first Star Trek concordance was compiled by a fan (or some clever entrepreneur), not anyone associated with the show. Think also of bibliographies and price guides to various types of material (first editions, mysteries, cookbooks, films, etc.), no one needed "permission" to quote author, title, publishing information, etc. because none of that stuff can be copyrighted to begin with. Sam Andrusko *** I wrote "at present" because there was an attempt at legislation this past year by large commercial firms, esp. database firms, to allow them to copyright facts (e.g., baseball statistics), but I assume they did not cough up enough money to their favorite congress"people" because it failed to pass Congress. Stay tuned. Am sure they will try again. I believe such protection for databases has become legal in Europe. Am curious as to how the Supreme Court will rule if it becomes law here. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes (fwd) > >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was > >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. In other words, she seems to be saying it is ok and is wondering why you thought otherwise, no? (I believe you mentioned you and she got into a discussion concerning length of entries and such, but I think she was concerned with the "fair use" aspect--certainly not a problem in indexing). > Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek > novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star > Trek folks would have something to say about that. Aiyaiyai, didn't we go through this a few months ago? It is not a violation of copyright to index, summarize, or abstract another work. Think "creativity"--that is what is protected. One cannot ***at present*** copyright names, dates, facts, etc. "Columbus discovered America in 1492" is a fact and cannot be copyrighted. "In fourteen hundred and ninety-two//Columbus sailed the ocean blue" is "creative" and can be copyrighted. But the individual "indexable" terms (e.g., Columbus, 1492, ocean blue) are not copyrightable and can certainly be indexed, if one wishes. As for Star Trek, the name/character"James T. Kirk" cannot be copyrighted (trademark, however, is another issue) nor can the titles of various episodes, names of other characters, etc. be copyrighted. And am willing to bet that the first Star Trek concordance was compiled by a fan (or some clever entrepreneur), not anyone associated with the show. Think also of bibliographies on various subjects and price guides (to (first editions, mysteries, cookbooks, films, etc.), no one needed "permission" to quote author, title, publishing information, etc. because none of that stuff can be copyrighted to begin with. Sam Andrusko *** I wrote "at present" because there was an attempt at legislation this past year by large commercial firms, esp. database firms, to allow them to copyright facts (e.g., baseball statistics), but I assume they did not cough up enough money to their favorite congress"people" because it failed to pass Congress. Stay tuned. Am sure they will try again. I believe such protection for databases has become legal in Europe though. Am curious as to how the Supreme Court will rule if it becomes law here. Further thoughts on Star Trek--granted once something becomes a huge hit, owners may threaten and fuss at anyone making money off of "their" product, but (IMHO!) I don't think they would win in court (that is, a suit concerning some sort of concordance or index to the show). And I do recall (vaguely) that years ago a group of genealogists interested in indexing the obits from the New York Times were scared off when the Times threatened them with copyright violation, but I firmly believe such a suit would not have been successful, but who wants to take on the New York Times? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 03:59 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was >> >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. > > In other words, she seems to be saying it is ok and is wondering >why you thought otherwise, no? > >> Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek >> novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star >> Trek folks would have something to say about that. > >Aiyaiyai, didn't we go through this a few months ago? It is not a >violation of copyright to index, summarize, or abstract another work. > From the U.S. Copyright office at http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ01.html#wci: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following: To reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords; To prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work; To distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending; To perform the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works; To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- I think the point about authorizing derivative works is right on target. A Star Trek index would clearly be a derivative work, would it not? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: "computer music" Along the lines of Elsa's new lyrics to Beatles songs...This variation on Gilbert & Sullivan's "I am the very model of a modern major-general" was sent to me the same day by a friend. I thought the computer folks might enjoy it. --Kara Pekar >I've built a better model than the one at Data General >For data bases vegetable, animal, and mineral >My OS handles CPUs with multiplexed duality; >My PL/1 compiler shows impressive functionality. >My storage system's better than magnetic core polarity, >You never have to bother checking out a bit for parity; >There isn't any reason to install non-static floor matting; >My disk drive has capacity for variable formatting. > >I feel compelled to mention what I know to be a gloating point: >There's lots of room in memory for variables floating-point, >Which shows for input vegetable, animal, and mineral >I've built a better model than the one at Data General. > > -- Steve Levine, "A Computer Song" (To the tune of > "Modern Major General", from "Pirates of Penzance", > by Gilbert & Sullivan) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:44:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 07:13 PM 11/9/1997 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >I think the point about authorizing derivative works is right on target. A >Star Trek index would clearly be a derivative work, would it not? That's an interesting question, Dick, since Nancy M. states clearly (and it is also my understanding) that an index [to anything, as far as I can determine, Star Trek materials included] is copyrightable in and of itself. It IS a derivative work in a way, but apparently it has its own copyright protection. I really believe it is somewhat off-track to concentrate on something like Star Trek, because I'm certain the name itself is trademarked in some way. You can't just produce your own Star Trek mugs, watches, T shirts, etc., without getting permission from the owners of the rights (and probably you'll pay a hefty commission). I think you could produce an index to Star Trek TV episodes, movies, novels, etc., and get around that problem, because an index is a separate work. You'd just have to figure out what to call it so as not to violate the ownership of the Star Trek name. It would cloud the issue less, IMO, to think about a work like _Moby Dick_ or _The Forsyte Saga_, where we know that the title is not owned by some entity and they aren't profiting by licensing its use. Then we could consider the actual issues of making an index for that work and avoid the other complexities involved in trade name ownership. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:02:58 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gillian Lonergan Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <879138478.1411400.0@listserv.cuny.edu> Just a though on the idea of indexing out of copyright books. How do you cope with the fact that there are so many different editions of popular books produced when they come out of copyright? In my experience, they all have different pagination - if you publish an index using the edition of one particular publisher, does that make it derivative? Gillian Lonergan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 11:44 PM 11/9/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 07:13 PM 11/9/1997 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: > >>I think the point about authorizing derivative works is right on target. A >>Star Trek index would clearly be a derivative work, would it not? > >That's an interesting question, Dick, since Nancy M. states clearly (and it >is also my understanding) that an index [to anything, as far as I can >determine, Star Trek materials included] is copyrightable in and of itself. >It IS a derivative work in a way, but apparently it has its own copyright >protection. > >I really believe it is somewhat off-track to concentrate on something like >Star Trek, because I'm certain the name itself is trademarked in some way. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't just say that it's OK to publish an index without consulting with the author. It depends to some degree on the work being indexed. Feel free to substitute whatever popular series you like. Patricia Cornwell mysteries, whatever. Sure, you can *index* them without author permission, but you can't *sell* the index without permission. Check out any of the three copyright URLs posted earlier. I will happily concede to an appropriate cite. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In a message dated 97-11-09 19:38:54 EST, you write: << To prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work; >> Thanks Dick, I don't think this could be any plainer but I looked up the word derivative in my thesauraus..hoping it meant something different from what I thought it did....these are the synonyms it listed: outgrowth, offspring, by-product, offshoot, descendant, spin-off, branch, limb. At first glance I felt like it was refering to a sequel of the book but then "by-product" sold me enough so I think until a copyright lawyer tells me different I think the safest thing to do is get permission. An index would diffinately be a by product based upon a copyrighted work. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes I've been watching with interest all the mails on this subject. My caution to anyone thinking of this is to talk to a copyright attorney. Even if you have permission of the author, the publisher might feel differently. In the legal area, page numbers have been considered copyrighted and couldn't be used without permission. While a work may be a by-product of another work, how this is treated in the law is something that cannot be determined without a legal opinion about a specific circumstance. (I have been through this on one of our products.) Copyright law has not kept pace with the electronic media either. Since these issues are decided in different Federal District courts, conflicting decisions have been handed down as well and the Supreme Court has not seen nor resolved all this yet. I've read articles about various scenarios including the judge's opinion and it is very hard for laymen to appreciate the nuances that make the judge decide one way or the other on an issue. On a positive note, I'd love to see this activity occur and be allowed to occur freely. Good luck to all who pursue it! Dave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:58:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: ASI Washington, DC Chapter meeting Oops sorry I posted that last message to Pilar to the whole list!! I must have gotten discomglobulated in the cutting and pasting step. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Since this is such a fuzzy area, why not simply make a pitch of the publisher of the fictional work/series you want to index? Tell the publisher that you AS A READER would be willing to BUY such an index, and that since none exists, you are willing to produce such for a fee. Enclose a sample with a quote for the work. And conclude with, "If you are unwilling to hire me to produce this index, I am requesting your approval to self-publish and sell the index independently." If necessary, you could offer to pay THEM a royalty for every copy sold and price your work accordingly. In the best scenario you will end up with a paying job; at worst you have the publisher's reply to use in discussing your options with a copyright lawyer. Carolyn Weaver In a message dated 97-11-10 10:43:14 EST, you write: << Even if you have permission of the author, the publisher might feel differently. In the legal area, page numbers have been considered copyrighted and couldn't be used without permission. >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:02:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 11:25 AM 11/10/1997 -0500, Carolyn Weaver wrote: >Since this is such a fuzzy area, why not simply make a pitch of the publisher >of the fictional work/series you want to index? Tell the publisher that you >AS A READER would be willing to BUY such an index, and that since none >exists, you are willing to produce such for a fee. Enclose a sample with a >quote for the work. And conclude with, "If you are unwilling to hire me to >produce this index, I am requesting your approval to self-publish and sell >the index independently." If necessary, you could offer to pay THEM a >royalty for every copy sold and price your work accordingly. In the best >scenario you will end up with a paying job; at worst you have the publisher's >reply to use in discussing your options with a copyright lawyer. This is how I would approach the situation. First, as somebody else pointed out, there are many editions of popular works of fiction, and an index depends on page numbers as locators, so you'd almost HAVE to pin your work to a specific edition (and update it regularly). Second, I believe the cooperation of the author and publisher is extremely helpful, even if it's not essential, in producing a quality index. Finally, Hans Wellisch casts some additional (and detailed) light on this whole subject. For those of you who have his book handy and are interested, pages 58-63 are of interest. Basically, if one compiles an index as an employee of a publisher, that index is not copyrightable in any case (this does NOT include independent contractors--freelance indexers). An indexer who is commissioned by an author or publisher to compile an index (that's most of us) cannot automatically claim a copyright to that work...BUT he or she may obtain the copyright if there is an explicit statement in the contract stipulating that the author and/or publisher waives copyright to the index. Wellisch goes on to say, "Once this has been successfully achieved, an index can then presumably be considered as a 'compilation' or 'derivative work', whose author (that is, the indexer) can claim copyright in it according to Section 103(b) and 106(2). Section 103(b) states that: 'The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such a work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work... The copyright in such work is independent of...any copyright protection in the preexisting material.'" There's a lot more food for thought here, but my impression is that it IS possible, though complex and somewhat difficult, to copyright an index. Still, it would be wise to proceed with caution and to consult an intellectual property attorney, particularly if you're planning on doing a full-fledged index to some popular work. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:30:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 05:51 PM 11/8/97 -0600, you wrote: > Regarding the comment about publishing an unsolicited index if the >author of the original work is dead - don't forget about the heirs! >Recently there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about Maslow's >classic theories about management. The article mentioned that the book was >out of print but was available on the Internet. It turned out that an >individual, acting by himself, typed most of the text onto the Web so >others could read and learn from it. He didn't ask for permission. Then >one of Maslow's heirs got wind of the Web page and demanded thousands of >dollars in compensation for the 'piracy.' The poor man is on the verge of >financial ruin just from the legal fight. > It seems intuitively wrong that an index can be a stand alone, >creative work. It would not exist without the original piece of fiction or >nonfiction. You can't claim sole intellectual right to the content when it >is dependent on some one else's creativity. > > >Susan Hernandez It also might serve to prove that some copyright holders can be stone stupid. If I were the Maslow's heir in this scenario, I'd be thanking the web-pager for showing me the way to the market and trying to strike a deal to charge FUTURE royalties from the web copy; not ripping a hole in what was likely a slim purse to begin with. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 09:39 AM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >I think until a copyright lawyer tells me different I think the safest thing >to do is get permission. An index would diffinately be a by product based >upon a copyrighted work. That is the only point I was trying to make. On the one hand, Nancy M. seems to say it is OK, on the other the copyright office seems to say it is not. That conflict alone dictates a ruling by the experts. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:36:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: Changing My E-Mail address Greetings: I just wanted to ask if there is a simple way to change the email address at which I get the Index-L messages at....or is it necessary to unsubscribe and then resubscribe? I would like to receive the messages at my Juno address. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:51:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Dick wrote: > Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek > novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star > Trek folks would have something to say about that. They certainly would! "Captain, an unidentified and unauthorized index has entered Federation space. It's not responding to our hails, sir." "Red Alert! Raise shields! Mr. Worf, fire lawsuits at will!" (Sorry -- I couldn't resist. ;-D ) On a more serious note, consider this also: Characters, fictional places, and (in the case of science fiction and fantasy) societies, groups, races, and species are all part of the original creation, and many authors would consider them to be proprietary material covered by copyright. I know of at least one sf/fantasy author who will not allow anyone to publish or in any way distribute fiction written in that author's world without permission, even if the story does not make use of actual characters from the author's own books. The same stricture exists for games, etc., set in or based upon this author's work. I understand that some people who have knowingly or unknowingly the author's permission-first policy have been contacted by the author's lawyers, ordering them to cease and desist or face legal action. Not all authors are this protective of the products of their creativity -- but they have the right to be. A fiction writer's livelihood is the fruits of his/her creativity. Other people shouldn't (and probably don't) have the right to capitalize on their works without permission. Please don't think I'm against indexing fiction. I'm all for it; I can think of several series off the top of my head which might benefit from a good index, or an index/encyclopedia combination. I do believe that one ought to seek and receive permission from the author before making such an index or companion volume public (either by self-publishing on the net or on paper, or by offering it to a publisher.) Seeking such permission shows both respect for the author and a healthy desire to avoid lawsuits. :-D Obviously, this does not apply to the indexing of classic fiction which is no longer under copyright. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:24:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Sonsie wrote: > The term, "Star Trek," may very well be copyrighted or trademarked, Dick, > which means that the owner of that mark can control the use of the term. IMO > this is a different situation from indexing, say, "1001 Arabian Nights," and > publishing the index/concordance. > > What I'm trying to say is that you've brought up what appears to be a > trademark issue, which is different from the issue of whether or not a > person can index a work not his own and then sell the index. I think THAT > issue is pretty clear-cut...you can do it, so long as you do not affect the > original author's ability to profit from his or her work. > The term "Star Trek" does have trademark status; I believe the term "Enterprise" is also trademarked or copyrighted when applied to a starship of the style and design used in the various series. But the entire concept on which the shows are based, the Star Trek universe, is copyrighted, and that copyright is owned either by Paramount or by Roddenberry's estate or both. If I understand correctly, any of the actors who played in the series could write a book about their experiences, using the characters' names, the ships' names, and the name of the show, without violating trademark or copyright. (Just as we can write about going to McDonald's without violating its trademark.) But if someone were to write an unsolicited Star Trek novel -- even one which uses none of the recurring or incidental characters from any of the series -- and that person were to publish the novel without permission from Paramount and/or Roddenberry's estate, I've been told they would be in legal trouble for copyright violation. (The publisher of the Star Trek novels might get pretty peeved, too, since I think they have an exclusive contract for the novels with Paramount.) It comes down to what Sonsie said about "affecting the original author's ability to profit from his or her work". Given a fiction book (say, a Star Trek novel or a short story "spun off" from a best-selling author's novel), the author could argue that the additional story takes away some of the demand for more of the author's own work; that the story's plot interferes with a plotline the author him/herself intended to pursue in a further work; etc. In other words, the author (and their legal advisors) could make a pretty good case that your story does, in fact, affect their ability to profit from their work. Could the same case be made for an index? I think it could, if the author was considering producing such a work, or a similar work such as a companion encyclopedia, at some time in the future. Even if the author can't prove that intent, they can still say, "Ah, but now I don't have the *option* to do an index, do I? Therefore, my right to profit has been affected." The letter of the law may suggest that an indexer has the right to create and market an index with or without the author's permission. In practice, though, I still think you could be looking at a lawsuit -- a lawsuit you might very well lose. At the least, you could end up spending a lot of money to fight it in court. Common sense, as well as the ethics Sonsie mentioned, suggest that receiving permission first is the wiser and safer course before indexing any [fictional] work still under copyright. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:25:45 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Indexing espionage In-Reply-To: <199711062333.PAA23128@pacific.net> Thank you all for your responses to what I consider to be a perplexing problem. Due to the time elapsed, my original post is appended. Kara wrote, regarding the use of "alleged": >after all, if you are indexing a book which >claims the existence of psychic phenomena, are you going to put "alleged" >after every entry because they are unproved and unaccepted by the >scientific establishment? ("telepathy, alleged"; "telekinesis, alleged"; >etc.) The point I'm making is that this is a human being who is being accused of treason, one of the highest crimes. (Remember, Hiss's conviction was for perjury, not treason.) In the law, if an accusation is not proved, it is an allegation. In print, if something is not proved (i.e. conviction obtained), one must refer to the "alleged crime," in order to 1) avoid being the subject of litigation for libel, and 2) rendering a mistrial in certain cases. Hence my question. Not because I fear litigation, particularly, but because I would wish to treat such a thing as sensitively as I could. Best, Victoria I originally wrote: I've just discovered an interesting passage in a review in ^The Nation^ (Nov. 3) by Victor Navasky of a book called ^Perjury: The Hiss-Chambers Case^, by Allen Weinstein. Weinstein's book is an updated version of his 1978 edition, and Navasky, as a reporter then, had raised issues about the author's sources. Large and substantial issues. He reviews those issues and talks about new ones. One of the new ones is about the index. Background: Recently published by the U.S. government, a 1945 cable from Moscow to its U.S. agents referred to a person code-named "Ales". In an unsigned footnote to the cable dated twenty-four years after the original cable was sent, it is stated that Ales is "probably Alger Hiss." Navasky questions this and shows additional evidence why this is probably not true, that Hiss was not "Ales". Navasky finally writes: "Yet Allen Weinstein is so intent on finding certainty where the record exudes ambiguity that he even engages in argument-by-index. Look up 'Ales' in the index of the new edition and one finds '"ALES" (pseud. of Hiss)'." [p.16] My comment is that I'm a strong believer in following the text when I index. The author claims Ales is Hiss. It is not proved. Unfortunately I can see myself doing what that indexer (assuming it was not Weinstein) did, possibly in all innocence. Do others agree that the parenthetical statement should have read (alleged pseu. of Hiss)? I'm not asking about the political truth. I'm asking, where does an indexer draw the line in such matters? Does the indexer need to feel convinced by the author's arguments? Or does the indexer follow the author's statements as the guide? I've never indexed a book in which someone is making a case against another person, although I am trained in international relations and law indexing and would like to eventually. My only guide is this: in law indexing I was taught not to state the law, but to describe it. How have some of you handled cases like this? vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:11:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Publishers who don't pay Sometimes even a signed contract isn't enough. I just want to caution everyone about a press in Mississippi, called Genesis Press Inc. Anybody know a good lawyer in the Milwaukee area? BTW, do any of you happen to know whether ASI keeps (or has considered keeping) a list of publishers who pay late or not at all (or otherwise screw us)? Wouldn't that be a great service? I suppose it might be a legal nightmare for ASI, though. And I s'pose the same problem would arise if we tried to include such a list on the Index-L FAQ? Just thinking out loud. Sigh, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:55:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Publishers who don't pay In-Reply-To: > BTW, do any of you happen to know whether ASI keeps (or has considered > keeping) a list of publishers who pay late or not at all (or otherwise > screw us)? Wouldn't that be a great service? I suppose it might be a legal > nightmare for ASI, though. And I s'pose the same problem would arise if we > tried to include such a list on the Index-L FAQ? Just thinking out loud. I doubt ASI keeps such a list, because maintaining a list & responding to queries about such a list would be a huge task.... However, if folks want to get the word out about certain publishers, they could follow Carol's example and post to INDEX-L. Then folks who want to "check" on a potential client can search the INDEX-L archives for the client's name. That makes it a quick & painless step to check out potential clients. And puts the control in the hands of those concerned: indexers who want to report on negative experiences with clients, and indexers who want to avoid dealing with such clients. That kind of information-sharing is what the 'net & listservs are all about. 8-) Thanks for the idea, Carol! Remember, to get to the INDEX-L archives, check the INDEX-L FAQ mailed to all subscribers periodically (and just recently), or visit the ASI web site (http://www.well.com/user/asi/). -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:11:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers who don't pay In-Reply-To: <199711111444.JAA26505@beavis.inetdirect.net> >BTW, do any of you happen to know whether ASI keeps (or has considered >keeping) a list of publishers who pay late or not at all (or otherwise >screw us)? Wouldn't that be a great service? I suppose it might be a legal >nightmare for ASI, though. And I s'pose the same problem would arise if we >tried to include such a list on the Index-L FAQ? Just thinking out loud. > >Sigh, >Carol Roberts Carol, that's a great idea. Sorry to hear about your problem, but I'll bet it is more common than we realize individually. What kind of publisher is Genesis Press? --Elsa Kramer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:11:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Mulvany Subject: Copyright Law Pertaining to Indexes Copyright for indexes is a murky topic because there is no case law. Dave Ream's suggestion to consult an attorney is a good suggestion. However, all you will get is the opinion of the attorney. One my first official meetings as ASI President was with the Chief Examiner and her staff at the U.S. Copyright Office. I brought along a booklet that was an index to a programming manual. The index was written independently by an indexer. The index was published independently; that is, it was not published by the publisher of the original programming manual. I asked if the indexer could register this index for copyright protection. Without hesitation, the answer was Yes. Again, given that there is no case law, all I got out of that meeting was the opinion of the Copyright Office. Although their opinion has a great deal of weight, it is not law. We discussed several other matters -- they consider indexes "compilations" not "derivative works". You can find more information about this at: http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/copyrite.htm Sonsie posts the following from Hans Wellisch' book, Indexing from A to Z. I disagree with the last part: > Finally, Hans Wellisch casts some additional (and detailed) light on this > whole subject. For those of you who have his book handy and are interested, > pages 58-63 are of interest. Basically, if one compiles an index as an > employee of a publisher, that index is not copyrightable in any case (this > does NOT include independent contractors--freelance indexers). An indexer > who is commissioned by an author or publisher to compile an index (that's > most of us) cannot automatically claim a copyright to that work...BUT he or > she may obtain the copyright if there is an explicit statement in the > contract stipulating that the author and/or publisher waives copyright to > the index. Current Copyright Law is very clear about copyright protection and works made for hire. Authors give up their ownership of copyright in the following ways: works written as an employee works made for hire by specifically transferring rights Specially commissioned works such as indexes can be works made for hire if AND ONLY IF both parties agree to that in writing. Lacking a written agreement, the index cannot be considered a work made for hire. This is not a vague, debatable point. Since so many indexers work without written agreements, the indexes produced cannot be considered works for hire. Therefore, copyright remains with the author. I disagree with Hans. Unless one of the three situations listed above exists, copyright automatically resides with the author. It is the publisher who must obtain the rights in writing. Since I rarely want to retain copyright, I use the this clause in my indexing agreements: "Upon full payment of the invoice, I transfer copyright to XYZ Publisher, Inc." More than once, this language has helped get some invoices paid! Now back to what I think was the original question: can you write and publish an index to pre-existing material? In my opinion, yes you can. There are many examples of this. Does anyone remember the OsDex? It was an index to all the unindexed manuals that were shipped with Osborne CP/M computers. At the ASI meeting in Winston-Salem, reference was made to a book that was an index to several cookbooks. I'm sorry but I can't remember the title. There are more examples when we look at periodicals -- indexes to computer journals, gardening magazines, database indexes. -nancy Nancy Mulvany Books for Indexers ==> http://www.well.com/~nmulvany ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:31:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Changing My E-Mail address I think the unsubscribe and subscribe messages must be received from the email address to which the listserve messages are/will be sent. If that's true, then it will be necessary to unsubscribe from your current email address and resubscribe from your new one. Joel Steven Sawula wrote: > > Greetings: > I just wanted to ask if there is a simple way to change the email address at > which I get the Index-L messages at....or is it necessary to unsubscribe and > then resubscribe? I would like to receive the messages at my Juno address. > > Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:38:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Publishers You might want to be cautious regarding posting negative info about publishers on Index-L. If anything you post causes a publisher to lose business (even if what you say is true!) you could be opening yourself up to a lawsuit. John Sullivan (am I paranoid, or what?!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:59:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Publishers At 10:38 AM 11/11/1997 EST, John R. Sullivan wrote: >You might want to be cautious regarding posting negative info about >publishers on Index-L. If anything you post causes a publisher to lose >business (even if what you say is true!) you could be opening yourself up to >a lawsuit. No, I don't think you're being paranoid...you're being smart! This question has come up before, and as I recall the solution that was proposed (and that sounded reasonable to me) was that a person who has had a bad experience with a publisher post a note (as Carol did) offering additional information privately about a specific problem or situation. Lest we forget, a number of list members are employed by publishers...this isn't a private, freelance-indexers-only list (though it is easy to forget that every now and again). And finally, what if an indexer unfairly (and publicly) blasts a publisher on the list? If the publisher isn't around to respond, we don't get both sides of the story. Here's an idea...if you're taking a job from a publisher you haven't worked with before, ask on-list that people contact you privately with any information they may have about that company. And if you've suffered through the Experience from Hell with a firm, write a note to the list offering information about your experience with that company--in private correspondence. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:38:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JEAN JAUNER FREDERIC LIST ADDRESS JEAN FREDERIC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Publishers I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, too). I have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to email me privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a publisher), I very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:53:27 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: Publishers A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back them up. Just my 0.01 worth. JK LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post > negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, too). I > have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to email me > privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you > open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of > the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a publisher), I > very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of > course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, > he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. > > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply But who has more money to get through a suit? Even if you end up winning, you might end up losing lots of money and time and peace of mind defending a suit. Being right might not be worth it.... Mark >>> Julie Knoeller 11/11/97 01:53pm >>> A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back them up. Just my 0.01 worth. JK LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post > negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, too). I > have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to email me > privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you > open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of > the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a publisher), I > very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of > course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, > he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. > > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711111857.NAA19921@beavis.inetdirect.net> >A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, >could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual >problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? >These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back >them up. Just my 0.01 worth. > >JK I agree, Julie -- as long as I was prepared for the expense of litigation. But I would never hesitate to talk about a nonpayment, particularly because I would already have filed a claim against the company by the time I decided to tell others about the problem. That's the beauty of having a written contract. And if you are sued for libel, the publisher must prove it. I think that would be hard to do. I am waiting (and waiting) on a payment now from a subsidy publisher who has paid promptly in the past but seems to be going through a weird phase. I haven't filed in small claims court yet, so I won't name the publisher yet. I stll hold out some hope. At 120 days, I'll file ... and then I'll tell you all about it without any fear of a libel suit. --efk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Publishers John, I'm also paranoid about posting adverse comments about a company (or a named individual) online. Except I prefer to think of it as being prudent. I would not hesitate to describe a problem situation online or to provide input into an ongoing discussion; but in an Index-L posting I would NEVER include the organization's name or highly specific information that might let people guess the name, and I would hesitate to do so even in private email. I will NOT mention names on a medium that may be archived, reposted God only knows where, inadvertently delivered to the wrong person -- or supoenaed in a court trial. So if anybody wants to know the name the name of the publisher who tried (unsuccessfully) to stiff me several years ago, they're going to have to invest in a phone call or corner me at a meeting; I'm not leaving a paper (or electronic) trail that could come back to haunt me. Rule of thumb: Private email isn't! Carolyn Weaver In a message dated 97-11-11 11:46:09 EST, you write: << You might want to be cautious regarding posting negative info about publishers on Index-L. If anything you post causes a publisher to lose business (even if what you say is true!) you could be opening yourself up to a lawsuit. John Sullivan (am I paranoid, or what?!) >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:27:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply You may very well be right, and one might also consider that a publisher could turn the tables and slander an indexer who is too much trouble. Even if what someone says about you is proven false, it can cause a lot of damage anyway, particularly to a freelancer who is so dependent on reputation. But I just hate the idea of being bullied... Julie Mark Dempsey wrote: > > But who has more money to get through a suit? Even if you end up > winning, you might end up losing lots of money and time and peace of > mind defending a suit. Being right might not be worth it.... > > Mark > > >>> Julie Knoeller 11/11/97 01:53pm >>> > A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, > could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual problems, > or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? > These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back > them up. Just my 0.01 worth. > > JK > > LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > > > I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post > > negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, > too). I > > have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to > email me > > privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you > > open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of > > the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a > publisher), I > > very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of > > course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, > > he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. > > > > Leslie > > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:28:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Publishers As with the copyright issue recently discussed here, it's best to get an accurate legal opinion on the possibility of being sued as the result of bashing someone in a public forum. However, it's my understanding that the truth (or lack thereof) of whatever you post doesn't necessarily come into play. Libel is defined as: "A written, printed, or pictorial statement that damages a person by defaming his character or reputation, damaging him in his occupation, or exposing him to public ridicule." It's also my understanding that something could be considered libelous *even if it's true*. I think just about anything goes in "private" messages (is there such a thing anymore?) between or among list members, but airing someone's dirty laundry on Index-L could lead to trouble. And you can believe me, because I never lie and I'm always right. ;) John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:49:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711111933.OAA27404@beavis.inetdirect.net> Rule of thumb: > Private email isn't! > >Carolyn Weaver > Quite right! Scarcely different from the in-box on your desk, and much like a cordless phone. Never say anything you would not want to hear read in court. --efk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:12:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Publishers At 02:28 PM 11/11/1997 EST, John R. Sullivan wrote: >As with the copyright issue recently discussed here, it's best to get an >accurate legal opinion on the possibility of being sued as the result of >bashing someone in a public forum. > >However, it's my understanding that the truth (or lack thereof) of whatever >you post doesn't necessarily come into play. Libel is defined as: > >"A written, printed, or pictorial statement that damages a person by defaming >his character or reputation, damaging him in his occupation, or exposing him >to public ridicule." > >It's also my understanding that something could be considered libelous *even >if it's true*. Here's what the Associated Press Libel Manual has to say: Libel is injury to reputation. Words, pictures or cartoons that expose a person to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induces an ill opinion of a person is libelous. . . . THERE IS ONLY ONE COMPLETE AND UNCONDITIONAL DEFENSE TO A CIVIL ACTION FOR LIBEL: THAT THE FACTS STATED ARE PROVABLY TRUE. [Emphasis added.] Truth, therefore, is the ultimate defense against a charge of libel. If somebody here wrote, for public consumption, that he had a contract with XYZ Publishing to produce an index, that he had turned in the index on time and in proper condition, and that XYZ had refused to pay his bill, or had held up payment for an unreasonable amount of time, this would not constitute libel (assuming that the facts are true as stated). If, OTOH, the indexer wrote that John Doe at XYZ was an SOB who deliberately and maliciously refused payment of the freelancer's bill...that might very well constitute libel. It's an opinion, not a fact, and certainly not provable. It could be a computer malfunction that kept the check from going out, or it could have been lost in the mail, and so forth. A statement of fact, without any negative comments, cannot be libel (as long as the facts are accurate). I'd still think it would be smart to NOT make such statements on a public forum, unless you are prepared to prove, in a court of law, their truth. Most of us would probably not want to get embroiled in such a situation unless we've already let ourselves in for it, so to speak, by having sued the publisher for our money. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:12:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Publishers At 02:49 PM 11/11/1997 -0500, Elsa F. Kramer wrote: >Quite right! Scarcely different from the in-box on your desk, and much >like a cordless phone. Never say anything you would not want to hear read >in court. While I realize that system operators may read your mail (though they claim they never do), I don't believe it is subpoenable in a court of law. And while it may be possible for somebody to ferret out email that you've sent privately, I can't imagine a publisher with the interest (let alone power) to do this to a small-time operator whose annoyance factor isn't much bigger than a gnat's. IMO, this is a little bit like worrying about sending credit card payments through the mail (they could get stolen) or listening for mysterious clicks on your hard-wired phone to see if you're being tapped. After all, even a phone call can be monitored--legally or not! And mail can be stolen or read by the wrong person, and private in-person conversations may take place where somebody could overhear them or tape them. Your trash isn't safe, your hard drive is accessible to anybody with the expertise and time to engage in highly complex data-recovery routines, shredded documents can be reconstructed, somebody could be watching you through a high-powered telescope, and so forth. At some point, I just have to accept the limitations of the universe and trust that good-sense precautions will have to cover the situation. I can't completely safeguard any personal information or correspondence or conversations, so I'm going to have to live with the way-out-there possibility that somebody is fascinated enough by my private correspondence, conversations, or paper/e-mail to want to track them down. I'm not disputing the fact that somebody, somewhere, can access your email...just that the likelihood is very small of it ever happening in the kinds of situations we are discussing. And even if it were done, the results would not be admissible in court...and would probably land the person in big legal trouble for having violated various privacy laws. Just my two cents' worth... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:10:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Claudia M. Caruana" Subject: Re: Publishers FYI: The American Society of Journalists and Authors publishes=20 > a newsletter, restricted to its members, that lists the names=20 > of periodicals that pay promptly, pay slowly, edit copy=20 > thoughtfully, treat writers poorly, etc. Interested parties might want=20 > to contact the executive director, Alexandra Cantor Owens at 75227.1650@ > compuserve.com for the ASJA point of view on this issue. C. Caruana =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:17:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711112026.PAA08600@beavis.inetdirect.net> Sonsie, I agree with you -- I don't worry about what I say very much. But I have written articles for law and business magazines about the amazing and various ways individuals' "private" email messages *were* retrieved and used against them in private and civil actions. It is more common than you might think. But it would in no way deter me from telling others if a publisher had stiffed me on a contract. As you pointed out, if the publisher wanted to sue me for saying that, it would have to prove that what I said wasn't true. --efk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:26:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply THERE IS ONLY ONE COMPLETE AND UNCONDITIONAL DEFENSE TO A CIVIL ACTION FOR LIBEL: THAT THE FACTS STATED ARE PROVABLY TRUE. [Emphasis added.] Truth, therefore, is the ultimate defense against a charge of libel. If somebody here wrote, for public consumption, that he had a contract with XYZ Publishing to produce an index, that he had turned in the index on time and in proper condition, and that XYZ had refused to pay his bill, or had held up payment for an unreasonable amount of time, this would not constitute libel (assuming that the facts are true as stated). > Ah, my dear, but you underestimate the ability of us lawyers to pick nits and generally make life miserable. I can hear the issues now: What constitutes "proper condition"? What constitutes an "unreasonable amount of time" What is "unreasonable"? Trust me, cases have been tried over much lesser issues, and these questions alone would be enough for the case to proceed to a jury trial. Mark made an excellent point earlier: The real question is who has the financial ability to drag this thing out in court. In a civil jury trial for libel, you could expect to spend well into the five figures defending yourself, even if you ultimately win, and not every court system allows you to recover your attorney's fees and costs for something like that. Incidentally, truth isn't ALWAYS a defense. In certain instances, the truth of the matter is irrelevant if the libel was done for a malicious purpose or involved personal or private facts. Nothing is concrete in the law. So anyway, prudence seems to be the key word. Don't say anything that you don't want to see subpoenaed! -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:04:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Publishers Why not create something like a Better Business Bureau for Indexers. If the Better Business Bureau can do it why can't we. Susan Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:04:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL CHAT - LURKING NEIGHBOR - TYPICAL INDEXER'S DAY The Aol Book indexers' Chat log is available for 11/10/97. E-mail me if you want it. Susan Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:22:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gayle Osburn Subject: Re: Publishers Hi Sonsie: A very common-sense, low-stress assessment of the world we live in. If we choose, we can live our lives consciously ducking from all sorts of horrendous possibilities. If we decide to behave with integrity, state the *facts* in one-on-one situation (ie, email), and someone then decides to come after us, we may suffer our Joan-of-Arc complex but we will have done a service to others and stood up for ourselves. Right On!! (I'm a child of the 60's!) Gayle >I'm not disputing the fact that somebody, somewhere, can access your >email...just that the likelihood is very small of it ever happening in the >kinds of situations we are discussing. And even if it were done, the results >would not be admissible in court...and would probably land the person in big >legal trouble for having violated various privacy laws. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <199711101311.IAA41412@rs8.loc.gov> Hello, everyone, Was off from work, so was not able to get to the law library to rummage around and do some research. As someone has pointed out there is no case law specifically concerning indexing. However, in rummaging around this morning in the law library, I think some of the reasoning used in a copyright infringement case brought by the Arica Instittue against Helen Palmer and Harper & Row might be germane. The Arica Institute was set up to further the teachings of the Japanese fellow who (among other things) popularized enneagrams a few years ago. Helen Palmer (and Harper Row) published a book on enneagrams and (in part) used passages from Arica Institute publications. Arica sued for copyright infringement and appealed the decision against them. The U.S. Court of Appeals, 2nd District (Southern NY Dist.) ruled against the Arica Institute (case 91-7859) on several grounds, but included the following (my summarization!): "single words and short phrases" did not have the "minimum creativity required for copyright protection." (This harkens back (I think) to the poem I quoted about Columbus: taken as a whole, yes, it is creative and is copyrightable, but when "indexed," that is, taken apart: Columbus, 1492, ocean blue, there is nothing inherently creative in "single words and short phrases." Second, the Fair Use section of the Copyright Law (section 107) allows use of copyrighted material for the "purpose of criticism, comment, scholarship, and research." (And the Appeals Court emphasized how important this exception has always been held). In this case, using text from publications of the Arica Institute (and in three examples they agreed there was a problem, but held it minor) for the purpose of "scholarship" was permissable and did not constitute copyright infringement. I think all of us strongly agree that an index furthers research and scholarship, so (as far as I am concerned), there is no copyright infringement for (as I wrote earlier) indexing, summarizing or abstracting something. QED? Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: Publishers In a message dated 97-11-11 15:41:34 EST, you write: > Libel is injury to reputation. > Words, pictures or cartoons that expose a person to public > hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induces an ill opinion > of a person is libelous. . . . This is off-topic, but what about political cartoons or comedians who poke fun at public figures? They don't seem to get sued for the things they say. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:41:46 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711120610.AAA17404@mixcom.mixcom.com> >A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, >could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual >problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? >These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back >them up. Just my 0.01 worth. That is certainly what I was assuming when I posted. I'm aware of the potential for lawsuits, but what I said was true, so I'll take my chances. A few people did e-mail me privately to get more details. >Don't say anything that you don't want to see >subpoenaed! Unless of course you are willing to take the risk, as I am. Genesis Press would have to be willing to take a risk, too, to sue me for saying they hadn't paid me, given that the contract stipulated that payment was due within 30 days of receipt of the invoice and given that they don't claim to have put the check in the mail or anything like that. Although I do appreciate the concern about lawsuits, and I won't try to tell anyone else what to do, I for one don't intend to keep my mouth shut about any of the following: (a) injustices, (b) improper business practices, and (c) illegal activities. And yes, maybe someday I'll be sued. So be it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:06:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply Public figures are held to a different standard. The hallmark case is New York Times v. Sullivan, and it held that public figures by the nature of their position have to endure character slurs, etc. that would present a cause of action to a private citizen. Public figures have to prove "actual malice" on the part of the speaker (what we colloquially refer to as "Times malice") in order to collect damages, and even then it's not guaranteed. Perhaps the most famous (or infamous) recent case that upheld that standard was Falwell v. Flynt (Jerry Falwell, the evangelist v. Larry Flynt, the publisher of Hustler). It's fascinating watching these discussions unfold here on the list, but I have to say that libel and slander are very fuzzy areas of law-- there aren't many (if any) black and white guidelines stricken in stone. It's all a matter of interpretation, and the interpretation usually changes on a case by case basis. It's just not an area where you can read a few cases and announce solidly either that a) you know what the law is, b) that your actions will or will not be protected, or c) how some future court may rule on your predictions and interpretations. It's one of those areas where the jurisdiction, the judge, the jury and the facts of the specific case will all combine to determine the outcome. That's why I said what I said earlier: A good guideline is to not say anything that you wouldn't want to have repeated to a jury. Sometimes the Golden Rule really is the best standard of behavior! :-) -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:21:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply At 12:06 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Sharon W. wrote: >Public figures >have to prove "actual malice" on the part of the speaker Remember the infamous "Guilt, guilty, guilty!" Doonesbury "episode" in which Mark Slackmeyer pronounced this verdict on some non-fictional public figure (I think it was John Mitchell) who'd been arraigned but not yet tried in the Watergate scandal. Several newspapers refused to run the strip saying it was against the fine ideals of American justice to pronouce guilt when innocence should be assumed; that Trudeau's opinions carried weight and could create a very ill opinion indeed against Mitchell. Actually, I thought it was a funny strip, and it certainly reflected what loads of people were saying throughout the country. -- LG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:55:21 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "ISKO.conf" Subject: Fifth International ISKO Conference -- Second Call for Papers The International Society For Knowledge Organization FIFTH INTERNATIONAL ISKO CONFERENCE Call for Papers The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) will conduct its fifth International Conference (ISKO 5) in Lille, France, August 25-29 1998. The theme of the conference is : Structures and Relations in Knowledge Organization The conference will focus on the role of relationships and emergent knowledge structures as represented in the human mind, in information handling tools--including classification schemes, thesauri, and indexing systems-and in computers and intelligent/knowledge-based systems. Papers and panels addressing this theme from any of the following perspectives are invited : 1. Theory of knowledge organization : History, paradigms, philosophy, societal aspects, epistemology, division of the sciences. 2. Disciplinary and interdisciplinary approaches to knowledge organization : Formalization of structures and relations in and across linguistics, semiotics, cognitive sciences, computer science, artificial intelligence, etc. 3. Cognitive approaches to knowledge organization : Conceptual entities and inter-concept relations, category formation, classical and non-classical classifications and their use in information organization and retrieval, concept representation in knowledge-based systems, object-oriented analysis and design, types of relations. 4. Design of information systems : Structure and relations in indexing and retrieval languages, design of controlled vocabularies, terminology building and extraction tools, thesauri and metathesauri, multilingual thesauri, standardization of relationships, problems of compatibility. 5. The Comparative approach Common and particular relationships in different knowledge systems. 6. Linguistics in knowledge organization : Structure and relations in sublanguages/special purpose languages/technical writing, discourse structures and relations, intelligent text processing, natural language processing-based systems and their use in knowledge representation and extraction. 7. New technologies for knowledge organization : Structures and relations in the online environment, applications of classical and non-classical structures to computer-based indexing and retrieval systems, search engines, distributed and multilingual knowledge bases. 8. Conceptual modeling : Data modeling, knowledge modeling, user profile modeling. 9. Universals of structures and relations in knowledge organization. Theoreticians, researchers and practitioners in the field of structures and relations in knowledge organization are invited to submit an abstract of 500 to 1000 words by December 8, 1997, to : Widad Mustafa Elhadi ISKO '5 Conference Chair UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles de Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve d'Ascq France Phone: 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 Fax: 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. An international program committee will select the papers for presentation, and authors will be notified by February 9, 1998. The deadline for submission of papers for the printed conference proceedings will be May 4, 1998. Authors are invited to send three printed copies of their abstracts to the above-mentioned address together with an electronic version which must imperatively be sent in an RTF format to the following e-mail address: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. The file's name should be the author's name and not mention "isko" in order to avoid same name file destruction. The abstract must include the authors name, institution , mailing and electronic addresses . Authors should suggest the topic area for which they consider their paper to be best suited. All papers must be in the English language for publication purposes although French-speaking participants wishing to present their papers in French can do so. Simultaneous translation facilities will be available during the conference Organizers : UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique) Universiti Charles De Gaulle Lille III & The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) Conference Chair Widad Mustafa Elhadi, President of ISKO-France UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles De Gaulle Lille III in co-operation with Hanne Albrechtsen, President of ISKO, The Royal School of Library and Information Science, Copenhagen (Denmark) Ingetraut Dahlberg, Former ISKO President(Germany) Rebecca Green, College of Library and Information Services, University of Maryland (USA ) Program Chairs Jacques Maniez, ISKO-France & Widad Mustafa Elhadi, ISKO-France & UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III, (France) Programme Committee Members : Hanne Albrechtsen, President of ISKO, The Royal School of Library and Information Science - Copenhagen (Denmark) Carol Bean, Lister Hill Center for Biomedical Communications, National Library of Medicine (USA) Clare Beghtol, Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto (Canada) Richard Bouchi, Ecole Nationale Supirieure des Sciences de l'Information et des Bibliothhques (ENSSIB), Lyon (France) Gerhard Budin, University of Vienna (Austria) Stiphane Chaudiron, Dipartement des Sciences de l'Information et de la Communication, Universiti Paris 10 (France) Emilia Curras, Information Science Unit, University of Madrid (Spain) Ingetraut Dahlberg, Former ISKO President (Germany) Raya Fidel, University of Washington (USA) Christian Fluhr, Direction de l'Information Scientifique & Technique (DIST-CEA), Saclay (France) Robert Fugmann, ISKO (Germany ) Francisco Javier Garcma Marco, Departamento de Biblioteconomma y Documentacisn, Facultad de Filosofma y Letras, Universidad de Zaragoza (Spain) Winfried Gvdert, Fachhochschule Koeln, Fachbereich Bibliotheks- u. Informationswesen Cologne (Germany) Rebecca Green, College of Library and Information Services, University of Maryland (USA ) Roland Hjerppe, LIBLAB Dept. of Computer and Information Science, Linkvping University (Sweden) Birger Hjorland, The Royal School of Library and Information Science, Copenhagen (Denmark) Yves Jeanneret, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (France) Barbara H. Kwasnik, School of Information Studies, Syracuse University (USA.) Girard Losfeld, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (France) I. C. Mcllwaine, School of Library, Archive & Information Studies, University College London (United Kingdom) Jean-Guy Meunier, Laboratoire d'Analyse Cognitive de l'Information, Universiti du Quibec ` Montrial (Canada) Joan S. Mitchell, OCLC Forest Press, Washington DC (USA) Gigliola Negrini, Consiglio Nazionale Delle Ricerche, Rome (Italy) Hope Olson, Scholl of Library and Information Science, University of Alberta (Canada) Annelise Pejtersen, System Analysis Department, Risx National Laboratory (Denmark) Steven A. Pollitt, Department of Telematics, School of Computing & Mathematics, University of Huddersfield (United Kingdom) Gerhard Riesthuis, Department for Book and Information Science, University of Amsterdam.(Netherlands) M. P. Satija, Department of Library Science, GND University, Amritsar (India ) Paul Solomon, School of Information & Library Science, University of North Carolina (USA) Nancy Willamson, Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto (Canada) Local Arrangement Committee Members : Annette Biguin, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Jirtme Bertonhche, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Danihle Degez, ISKO-France and D & G (Paris) Sylvie Dalbin, ATD (Paris) Madjid Ihadjadene, ENSSIB (Lyon) Christophe Jouis, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Jacques Maniez, ISKO-France (Dijon) ***************************************************************** Widad Mustafa Elhadi UFR IDIST Universite Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 France BP 149 59653 Villeneuve d'ASCQ Tel : 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 fax : 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail : mustafa@univ-lille3.fr ISKO '5 e-mail : isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:07:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Math Textbooks Dear Chris, I saved a message you posted to Index-L in September regarding texts for 9th & 10th grade students. I appreciate your suggestions. I have a couple of questions for you or other Index-Lers. I have been indexing for a year and a half and I finally got my first math textbook to index. :) I am excited because I have a B.A. degree in mathematics and a teaching credential (and now I can make use of them.) I am doing a sixth grade student math textbook and my editor has sent the previous edition as well as a list of new words that she wants included. The problems I see with the old index (and new word list) are 1) It seems written for teachers as well as students. It includes main entries like "Assessment" and "Manipulatives" which I can't imagine a student looking up. 2) Some entries have very long lists of page numbers (20-50) like "Mixed reviews" and "Problem solving practice." These certainly don't fit the indexing standard of five or less page references per entry. They seem useless to even a teacher. Before I call the editor tomorrow(11/13), I would like some input from you. Is there a different set of rules for indexing math textbooks? Are there any written standards for indexing textbooks to which I could refer the editor? Thanks for your input, Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing indexer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:58:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KGarcia549@AOL.COM Subject: Charge for HTML tagging What would one charge for tagging an existing cindex file with HTML codes? Thanks. Kathy Garcia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Math Textbooks In a message dated 97-11-12 16:34:07 EST, you write: << 1) It seems written for teachers as well as students. It includes main entries like "Assessment" and "Manipulatives" which I can't imagine a student looking up. >> I can't answer the other questions, or this one definitively, but it sounds as if this is a TE, Teacher's Edition. That would account for the teacher-oriented material. El-High publishers (and college, for that matter) often publish separate teacher's editions that contain all that teacher material. I'd ask the editor. Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Charge for HTML tagging Kathy-- With the software product HTML/PREP (about $45) from David K. Ream's Leverage Technologies, Inc. (http://www.levtechinc.com/htmlprep.htm), it would take you no time at all to tag. Take a look at the above URL for more information. At 04:58 PM 11/12/97 -0500, KGarcia549@AOL.COM wrote: >What would one charge for tagging an existing cindex file with HTML codes? >Thanks. > >Kathy Garcia > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:48:27 -0800 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: Publishers (and email) Let me relay my experience with email and it's "privacy". My company (a nonprofit city-owned hospital) is in the process of installing a house-wide email system that also has the ability to send/receive email OUTSIDE our corporation. I work in the computer department and some of the items we had to determine prior to implementing the system included the following: - backup rotation. That's right, folks. We back up the email system on a nightly basis. Any email sitting in a user's directory at the time of backup is saved off to tape. Even if the message gets deleted the next day in your individual folder, the backup version remains available and CAN BE RETRIEVED as long as the tape is not overwritten. The number of days in a tape rotation varies. It depends on the philosophy of the organization. We have a tape rotation of three days. That means that backups are kept for the current day, the previous day and the day before that. So, if today is Wednesday, my organization would have a backup for Wednesday, Tuesday and Monday. Sunday's backup would be used for Thursday's rotation and, on Thursday, the Sunday backup would be overwritten. - usage policy. In activating the email system, we require each user to read and sign a policy that specifically tells them that their email may be monitored without their knowledge or permission. We also inform them about the concept of backups and that deleted messages may be able to be retrieved. So, in a nutshell, I agree with the voices that suggest conservative behavior. Email is NOT private. Regards, Lucie Haskins ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:01:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Indexing Online? As a new indexer (reading Nancy M's book, taking the USDA course), the messages below intrigued me. This list is great so I feel comfortable showing my ignorance: Why is Kathy wanting to tag an existing Cindex file with HTML codes? Is the book/index going on the web or an intranet? How/where can I learn more about online (web, et al) indexing? I just completed my first index for an online Help system but have no knowledge regarding other kinds of online indexing. Thanks in advance! Marsha Lofthouse marsha_lofthouse@customer-insight.com Kathy-- With the software product HTML/PREP (about $45) from David K. Ream's Leverage Technologies, Inc. (http://www.levtechinc.com/htmlprep.htm), it would take you no time at all to tag. Take a look at the above URL for more information. At 04:58 PM 11/12/97 -0500, KGarcia549@AOL.COM wrote: >What would one charge for tagging an existing cindex file with HTML codes? >Thanks. > >Kathy Garcia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:09:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Web site referrals? As I cruise around the Internet, looking for publishers and book packagers who might be interested in my services, I notice that a number of indexers have listed their Web pages in some of the large lists of services (BookWire, Galaxy, Nerd World indexes, etc). My question is: are you getting any work from these listings? Just curious. Thanks, Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:41:51 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Math Textbooks In-Reply-To: <199711122120.NAA01607@pacific.net> Shirley wrote: >The problems I see with the old index (and new word list) are > >1) It seems written for teachers as well as students. It includes main >entries like "Assessment" and "Manipulatives" which I can't imagine a >student looking up. The textbook publisher for whom I did several junior high math texts also wanted entries that traced the pedagogy. This is because the student edition (SE) index is used, as is, in the teacher's edition (TE). So yes, both need to find what they're looking for. I found it strange that the TE narrative, which surrounds reduced-size spreads of the SE, page for page, was not indexed, but that is their standard. That students might be confused by such entries was not addressed. >2) Some entries have very long lists of page numbers (20-50) like "Mixed >reviews" and "Problem solving practice." These certainly don't fit the >indexing standard of five or less page references per entry. They seem >useless to even a teacher. First of all, the "standard" of five references or less varies significantly up to twelve, depending on the field and the book. But, what you're looking at there is a reflection of the market for textbooks. The indexes for math texts, I've found, in particular, call for a tracing of those sorts of entries to show the people who buy textbooks that the material is present throughout the book. The people who buy textbooks for their school districts, etc., use the index as a significant criterion in their choice. For that matter, the pedagogical tracings also serve that purpose. For publishers concerned with bringing out multicultural aspects, similar tracings would apply, etc. Thus, the index is called upon to serve many functions, not necessarily complementary. What I've found is that the larger the textbook publisher, the more likely this is the approach to el-hi indexes, esp. in math, where competition is fierce. However, I've had the pleasure of indexing for a small math publisher of innovative books, and they had no such concerns. But their market looks different. I was, like you, aghast when first confronted with this, but the production editors were quite firm in their requirements, and told me why. In fact, I had to study the standards for writing the textbooks, in order to index the way they wanted, and that went for history as well. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:56:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Web site referrals? In-Reply-To: <346A6152.B1D16081@ix.netcom.com> The first two years that I had a web site, I had projects here & there that came directly from someone seeing my site. But the statistics this year have been shocking! This year I've had 4 new clients (with a total of 6 projects) that did a web search for indexers & saw my site. That is only counting clients who found my site with no one referring them). I have 2 books coming this year more from one of those clients! I've made enough from those projects this year to pay for my IP account for well over 10 years (if the prices don't go up - yeah, right). I still hold to my strong belief that a web site is _not necessary_. Nor is web access. I created a site "just because": I like webmastering and I wanted to see what would happen. I expected that I would simply refer folks to it if they wanted to see what projects I'd worked on lately. Or, folks who saw my URL on my business card could stop by & see my background information and a list of clients without actually having to call me and ask for me to send them that info. I still define those folks as my audience & simply allow myself to be surprised when clients come my way via the web. Hope this helps. -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Ann Norcross wrote: > As I cruise around the Internet, looking for publishers and book > packagers who might be interested in my services, I notice that a > number of indexers have listed their Web pages in some of the large > lists of services (BookWire, Galaxy, Nerd World indexes, etc). My > question is: are you getting any work from these listings? Just > curious. > > Thanks, > Ann Norcross > Crossover Information Services > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Job Opportunity From: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" "Library and Information Science jobs mailing list" 11-NOV-1997 09:29:25.65 To: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" CC: Subj: Job Posting: Information Architect/Classification and Indexing Speciali st (apologies for cross-posting) Position Title Information Architect/Classification and Indexing Specialist Company Argus Associates, Inc. Location Ann Arbor, Michigan Company Profile Argus specializes in information architecture design for large, complex intranets and Web sites. We create organization, labeling, navigation, indexing, and classification systems that help users find the information they need. Since 1993, we have provided strategy consulting and information architecture services to some of the world's largest corporations, including AT&T, Borders Books & Music, Chrysler Corporation, and Encyclopaedia Britannica. In addition, Argus developed and manages the Argus Clearinghouse, the Internet's premier research library. Each of our consultants holds an advanced degree in information science and librarianship. As advocates for the importance of information architecture, we write and speak extensively on the topic. Position Description We are seeking a creative, team-oriented, entrepreneurial individual with a background in information and library science. To succeed in this position, this individual must understand the principles of information organization, indexing, classification, information management, and user interface design. Experience as a team member on Internet-based information system development projects is desired. Responsibilities may include: researching, creating, applying, and maintaining controlled vocabularies; repackaging content from traditional media for online use; and creating information architectures for Web sites, intranets, and other information systems. Since Argus is an entrepreneurial company, opportunities exist to be involved in a diverse array of projects which may include the development of innovative information services such as the Argus Clearinghouse, speaking at professional conferences, and writing articles and books. Argus offers a competitive salary, vacation, results-based bonus, medical benefits, training, and excellent career development potential. Requirements * Masters in Information and Library Studies. * Indexing experience. * Experience with classification systems. * Experience designing and developing Web sites. * Experience in cataloging and content modeling (desired by not required). How Do I Apply? As applications will be reviewed immediately upon receipt, quick turn-around improves chances of hiring. Final deadline is November 21, 1997. Please send the following materials by postal mail or fax as soon as possible to Louis Rosenfeld (no email submissions or phone calls please): * a resume; * a brief description of your relevant experience; * URLs for Web sites you have helped to develop; * a brief writing sample (article or college essay); * a note indicating where you heard about this opportunity; and * contact information including phone number and email address. Louis Rosenfeld Argus Associates, Inc. 109 Catherine Street Ann Arbor, MI 48104 Fax: 313.213.8082 For more information about Argus, please review our Web site at http://argus-inc.com/ ****************************************************************** * LIBJOBS is a free service provided by the International * * Federation of Library Associations. For individual * * membership information, contact: ifla.hq@ifla.nl * * * * URL: www.ifla.org * ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:50:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KGarcia549@AOL.COM Subject: Charge for HTML tagging I guess I had better elaborate on my previous posting. I have the new HTML/Prep software from LevTech, which I have just created my first HTML tagged file. It was a breeze---Thank you Dave, from LevTech., Anyway, I have quite a few previously done indexes from a publisher and they want me to prepare them for their web page. They asked me how much I will charge??? I think because it is a service and I have previously been paid for this work I should charge something. In creating new work for clients who ask upon request to have it in HTML format, I would say it is like putting it into a wordprocessor format and would not charge extra. What is everyone's thoughts on charges for HTML tagging? Sincerely, Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:41:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Charge for HTML tagging In-Reply-To: <199711131658.LAA01523@camel10.mindspring.com> In this case, since you are taking previously written stuff and doing this, I would charge hourly. And at least $35.00 or more per hour, since what you are doing involves you having more technical knowledge than just indexing. You will need to design the final output - does it have lettered links across the top, do you need "return to top of page" after each alpha group, will it be one long page or several single pages, will you need to have any special frames or tables? You have to know HTML to check your results after running HTML prep, you will have to test the results, and you need to know more than just Cindex. These are all factors in an hourly rate. There really isn't a breakdown that would work for charges other than hourly for this kind of work... At 11:50 AM 11/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >I guess I had better elaborate on my previous posting. I have the new >HTML/Prep software from LevTech, which I have just created my first HTML >tagged file. It was a breeze---Thank you Dave, from LevTech., Anyway, I have >quite a few previously done indexes from a publisher and they want me to >prepare them for their web page. They asked me how much I will charge??? I >think because it is a service and I have previously been paid for this work I >should charge something. In creating new work for clients who ask upon >request to have it in HTML format, I would say it is like putting it into a >wordprocessor format and would not charge extra. What is everyone's thoughts >on charges for HTML tagging? > >Sincerely, Kathy > Jan <>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<> Jan C. Wright Wright Information Indexing Services jancw@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw <>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:17:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Web site referrals? What is NerdWorld Indexes? Who puts it out? On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:09:23 -0500 Ann Norcross writes: >As I cruise around the Internet, looking for publishers and book >packagers who might be interested in my services, I notice that a >number of indexers have listed their Web pages in some of the large >lists of services (BookWire, Galaxy, Nerd World indexes, etc). My >question is: are you getting any work from these listings? Just >curious. > >Thanks, >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:46:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Richard S. Perla" Subject: assorted names Thursday, Nov 13th, Dear Listers: How about Yo Yo Ma? The author of this book has a hyphen between Yo's yos. I have listed him as: Ma, Yo-Yo. I'm thinking of putting him in under the Y's also. This is a book on Dutch Swing Music, of which Yo Yo Ma is a big fan, and is mentioned frequently in the text. This might be a no-brainer, but I was pretty intrigued by the possibilities. Also: I have been following the web page thread and wondered if any of you have posted a resume on the Net via a resume service? Any Luck? I just posted mine today, and probably should have asked _first_ ; my motto has always been 'Leap, then Learn'. Thanks in advance Jean Perla Yarmouth-which way to LL Bean- Maine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:55:57 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paper Pushers Editorial Services Subject: Yo Mama! At 07:46 PM 11/13/97 +0000, you wrote: > >How about Yo Yo Ma? The author of this book has a hyphen between >Yo's yos. I have listed him as: > >Ma, Yo-Yo. > >I'm thinking of putting him in under the Y's also. Jean-- Yo-yo is indeed hyphenated. As an American, he uses the standard first name first, last name last, so alphabetizing him under Ma, Yo-yo is correct. Listing this fabulous cellist under the Ys would be like listing Pablo Casals under the Ps! --Sudsy =============================== Paper Pushers Editorial Services =============================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:10:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Web site referrals? Suellen Kasoff wrote: > > What is NerdWorld Indexes? Who puts it out? Nerd World is yet another Internet search engine/subject index, like Yahoo! only smaller (I think it's smaller, anyway). The difference between search engine and subject indexes is that the subject indexes catagorize Web sites for you, and let you search the categories. nerd World has one for editorial services and one for publishers and zillions more. > > On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:09:23 -0500 Ann Norcross > writes: > >As I cruise around the Internet, looking for publishers and book > >packagers who might be interested in my services, I notice that a > >number of indexers have listed their Web pages in some of the large > >lists of services (BookWire, Galaxy, Nerd World indexes, etc). My > >question is: are you getting any work from these listings? Just > >curious. > > > >Thanks, > >Ann Norcross > >Crossover Information Services > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:20:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: HTML tagging Kathy-- I think we need more information here. If these are old indexes that you have done, please explain more about the indexed text, in terms of "page locators." Are there now anchors/targets to the indexed text in the page locator field in CINDEX? Did you create these anchors/targets within the text or will/did the client do that? If you have to do more than just tag the index itself, then you will be spending more time on this than just using HTML/PREP. If the client is not going to do the anchors/targets, then, yes, it will take a lot more time, since you have to verify that the links work after you have created the anchors/targets within the text, etc. HTML/PREP can easily create a letter list across the top of the page. BTW, I would charge by the hour. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Web site referrals? sorry, meant to include the url, here it is: http://www.nerdworld.com Suellen Kasoff wrote: > > What is NerdWorld Indexes? Who puts it out? > > On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:09:23 -0500 Ann Norcross > writes: > >As I cruise around the Internet, looking for publishers and book > >packagers who might be interested in my services, I notice that a > >number of indexers have listed their Web pages in some of the large > >lists of services (BookWire, Galaxy, Nerd World indexes, etc). My > >question is: are you getting any work from these listings? Just > >curious. > > > >Thanks, > >Ann Norcross > >Crossover Information Services > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:31:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Newlin Subject: Frame 5.5 indexing issues Now that I have Frame 5.5, I remember that there was an email some time ago about changes in Frame's indexing tools in the new version. Could the person with the information send it to me?? Thanks, Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:03:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Bookindexer's Chat Log List Hi I am going to create a mailing list for the AOL Bookindexer's Chat log so that you won't have to keep mailing me and asking me to send you the log. If you would like to be included on the list just reply "List Me". When I offer the log to the index list you don't have to reply you will get it automatically. Susan Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:10:42 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Re: AOL Bookindexer's Chat Log List List me. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Announcements on Website ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Good things are happening at ASI! Consult the Announcements Page on the ASI website at http://www.well.com/user/asi/ for new information regarding ............ * Key Words editorial positions available * ASI Logo files for chapter and SIG use * Seattle Conference preliminary publicity (May 13-16, 1998) If it's not there yet, it will be very soon! Janet Perlman Secretary American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:49:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Copyright Conclusion I want to thank you all for your time and comments on the copyright topic. I feel more confident to go ahead with my plans. You each contribute something to what I feel my philosophy will be on this. First I don't want to in anyway undermine the author's right to publish an index for his/her book. I feel that any index would be better at the back of it's book rather than alone or in another publication. I will first offer the index to the author and then if he/she doesn't want to buy it I will publish it myself. I don't think this will affect the author's ability to add an index later if he wishes whether it is mine or someone else's. Anyone would prefer to buy a book with the index already in it rather than separately. My idea is to offer an index for those books that don't have one and aren't likely to have one. If the author doesn't want to buy the index I will ask for his/her permission with the understanding that he may purchase the index at any time. I really don't feel I need the author's permission and will publish the index if he gives it or not. The permission is just added protection. I will not however publish it if he has his own plans to index the book in the near future and I will discontinue publishing it if he starts publishing his book with an index included. I really am not totally convinced that there is a market for fiction indexes especially stand alone but I plan to find out. Who knows maybe I will blaze the trail for other or maybe I will get so busy publishing I won't have time to index and you guys will have to index them for me...lol Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:56:12 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: AOL Bookindexer's Chat Log List list me On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:03:47 -0500 Susan Wilkerson writes: >Hi I am going to create a mailing list for the AOL Bookindexer's Chat >log so >that you won't have to keep mailing me and asking me to send you the >log. If >you would like to be included on the list just reply "List Me". When I >offer >the log to the index list you don't have to reply you will get it >automatically. > >Susan >Bookindexr@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:07:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Barber Subject: MONEY magazine article Dear Index-Lers Thought you might be interested in the following Q and A from the "Money Helps" column by Lani Luciano in the December issue of Money magazine. I'm one of the people who "discovered" indexing through the Money magazine article of a couple of years ago, so I appreciate the information that they provide, but she makes it sound so easy--almost on the same level as stuffing envelopes. Kathy Barber Barber Indexing >Q. My wife and I will soon have our first child, and she has quit work to care for the baby. Is there anything she can do to earn money at home? We just bought a house and can't afford to pay for much training or equipment, but we own a computer. A. Naturally, you'll be sharing child care and chores with her, so she can fit paid work into her more-than-full-time job as a mom, right? I thought so. First, she should learn the fundamentals by reading ^How to Start a Successful Home Business^ (Warner Books, $10.99; 800-343-9204). Then she can narrow down her interests and abilities by consulting ^The Home-Based Business Occupational Handbook^ (Kendall/Hunt Publishing, $21.95; 800-228-0810). It describes 175 opportunities, their start-up costs and the skills that are required. Most of these ventures involve some specialized training and equipment, but there are low-cost options - for example, book indexing. For just $286, the Department of Agriculture (202-720-7213) sells a correspondence course that teaches you how to pick out key words for listing in back-of-the-book references. Indexers need a 486 PC, indexing software, a fax, a modem and a printer. The entire package costs roughly $3,000. But you could pay less than $800 to buy just the software if your computer has enough memory to be outfitted with it. Possible earnings: $35,000 a year - enough to afford babysitters every now and then. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:47:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article In-Reply-To: <199711132300.SAA03860@beavis.inetdirect.net> Most of these ventures involve some specialized training and equipment, >but there are low-cost options - for example, book indexing. For just $286, >the Department of Agriculture (202-720-7213) sells a correspondence course >that teaches you how to pick out key words for listing in back-of-the-book >references. Indexers need a 486 PC, indexing software, a fax, a modem and a >printer. The entire package costs roughly $3,000. But you could pay less >than $800 to buy just the software if your computer has enough memory to be >outfitted with it. Possible earnings: $35,000 a year - enough to afford >babysitters every now and then. This reminds me of a woman who serves on our city library board of directors. She wondered aloud one time if librarians have to go to school to do what they do. She was amazed when informed that it requires a master's degree. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing." --Robert Benchley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:33:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Edgar Allen Poe in cyberspace > Suppose Edgar Allan Poe Used a Computer > > Once upon a midnight dreary, fingers cramped and vision bleary, > System manuals piled high and wasted paper on the floor, > Longing for the warmth of bedsheets, > Still I sat there, doing spreadsheets: > > Having reached the bottom line, I took a floppy from the drawer. > Typing with a steady hand, I then invoked the SAVE command > and waited for the disk to store, > Only this and nothing more. > > Deep into the monitor peering, long I sat there wond'ring, fearing, > Doubting, while the disk kept churning, > turning yet to churn some more. > "Save!" I said, "You cursed mother! Save my data from before!" > One thing did the phosphors answer, only this and nothing more, > Just, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" > > Was this some occult illusion? Some maniacal intrusion? > These were choices undesired, ones I'd never faced before. > Carefully, I weighed the choices as the disk made monstrous noises. > The cursor flashed, insistent, waiting, baiting me to type some more. > Clearly I must press a key, choosing one and nothing more, > From " Abort, Retry, Ignore?" > > With my fingers pale and trembling, > Slowly toward the keyboard bending, > Longing for a happy ending, hoping all would be restored, > Praying for some guarantee Timidly I pressed a key. > But on the screen there still persisted, words appearing as before. > Ghastly grim they blinked and taunted, haunted, as my patience wore, > Saying."Abort, Retry, Ignore?" > > I tried to catch the chips off-guard - > I pressed again, but twice as hard. > I pleaded with the cursed machine: > I begged and cried and then I swore. > Then I tried in desperation, sev'ral random combinations, > Still there came the incantation, just as senseless as before. > Cursor blinking, mocking, winking, flashing nonsense as before. > Reading, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" > > There I sat, distraught, exhausted; by my own machine accosted > Getting up I turned away and paced across the office floor. > And then I saw dreadful sight: > a lightning bolt cut through the night. > A gasp of horror overtook me, shook me to my very core. > The lightning zapped my previous data, lost and gone forevermore. > Not even, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" > > To this day I do not know The place to which lost data goes. > What demonic nether world is wrought where data will be stored, > Beyond the reach of mortal souls, beyond the ether, in black holes? > But sure as there's C, Pascal, Lotus, Ashton-Tate and more, > You will one day be left to wander, lost on some Plutonian shore, > Pleading, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" > > Author Unknown > Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing." --Robert Benchley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:41:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: unsubscribing Hello again! I am having difficulty unsubscribing from the list....could someone please tell me the proper command in its entirety to remove my present email address from the Index-L? Thank you in advance. Steve Sawula Present email is ssawula@aol.com New address will be IMUKIE2@JUNO.COM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:53:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: t Subject: Re: AOL Bookindexer's Chat Log List In-Reply-To: <199711132204.QAA23036@libby.rbls.lib.il.us> list me On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Susan Wilkerson wrote: > Hi I am going to create a mailing list for the AOL Bookindexer's Chat log so > that you won't have to keep mailing me and asking me to send you the log. If > you would like to be included on the list just reply "List Me". When I offer > the log to the index list you don't have to reply you will get it > automatically. > > Susan > Bookindexr@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:29:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article At 05:07 PM 11/13/1997 -0600, Kathy Barber wrote: > Most of these ventures involve some specialized training and equipment, >but there are low-cost options - for example, book indexing. For just $286, >the Department of Agriculture (202-720-7213) sells a correspondence course >that teaches you how to pick out key words for listing in back-of-the-book >references. Indexers need a 486 PC, indexing software, a fax, a modem and a >printer. The entire package costs roughly $3,000. But you could pay less >than $800 to buy just the software if your computer has enough memory to be >outfitted with it. Possible earnings: $35,000 a year - enough to afford >babysitters every now and then. Well, where to begin??? :-) First, it takes more than a quick whiz through the Dept. of Agriculture course to become a proficient (and profitable) indexer. Second, while it's true that the equipment list would do for a beginning indexer, it's hardly going to take you more than a year or two to outgrow it...especially when the rest of the world has already moved on to Pentiums with Windows 95 (or similarly equipped Macs) and so has most indexing software. Third, if you could even FIND a 486 on the retail market, you could get the entire setup listed here for considerably less than $3000 (try $500 for the computer, $150 for a bare-bones inkjet printer, and another $200 for a fax. The modem usually is built into the system). I haven't had to buy a full-on Macrex program in a few years (I purchase the updates when they are available), but it cost nowhere near $800 when I bought it some time back. I doubt it's anywhere near that now. And finally, of course, assigning a figure of $35,000 a year as "possible" earnings for a newbie is just ridiculous. Many of our long-time pros don't even make that much directly from indexing! You get the drift, I'm sure... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:39:25 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Paper, again >From Christine Headley Yesterday I bought a ream of paper for HK$40 (pegged at US$1=HK$8ish). On inspection, it turns out to be 'a farmed eucalyptus product', chlorine free and alkaline, suitable for laser printers etc - from Brazil. How much rainforest, I now ask myself, was got rid of to plant the eucalyptus; how many native Indians dispossessed? Do I want to carry on buying this brand? Does anyone have information? TIA Christine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:29:09 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Re: Paper, again Christine At http://www.esd.ornl.gov/bfdp/srwcwgrp/mechconf/mcnabb.html you can find a paper by a US academic about Brazil's eucalypt plantations. According to the paper, the eucalypt plantations have been established on "abandoned agricultural land" previously used for coffee, cane sugar. If this is true then no forest or people were displaced, at least not in setting up the eucalypt plantations - the damage was done many years ago when the land was first cleared for the coffee and sugar plantations. A separate site indicates that over 100,000 people in Brazil are employed directly in the forestry and paper industries, and it contributes 1% to GDP Sandra Henderson Canberra >---------- >From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith[SMTP:stroud@NETVIGATOR.COM] >Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 2:39PM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Paper, again > >>From Christine Headley > >Yesterday I bought a ream of paper for HK$40 (pegged at US$1=HK$8ish). >On inspection, it turns out to be 'a farmed eucalyptus product', >chlorine free and alkaline, suitable for laser printers etc - from >Brazil. How much rainforest, I now ask myself, was got rid of to plant >the eucalyptus; how many native Indians dispossessed? > >Do I want to carry on buying this brand? Does anyone have information? > >TIA >Christine > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:01:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Web site referrals? Ann Norcross wrote: > Nerd World is yet another Internet search engine/subject index, like > Yahoo! only smaller (I think it's smaller, anyway). The difference > between search engine and subject indexes is that the subject indexes > catagorize Web sites for you, and let you search the categories. nerd > World has one for editorial services and one for publishers and > zillions more. Sounds interesting...do you have the URL? TIA, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:34:50 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article In-Reply-To: <199711140133.RAA26133@pacific.net> Sonsie wrote: >And finally, of course, assigning a figure of >$35,000 a year as "possible" earnings for a newbie is just ridiculous. Many >of our long-time pros don't even make that much directly from indexing! As I recall the original article promised incomes of something like $70,000? So at least they're getting realistic. But here's a reality check. I've been indexing since 1989, studied with N. Mulvany at UC Berkeley and then was mentored in law indexing, and now index mainly college texts and scholarly works, doing lots of anthropology, psychology, and philosophy. Here's a blurb from an email one of my production editors sent recently: >Just wanted to pass along the author's thanks for doing such a great job on >the index. He was astounded at its thoroghness and said that not only is it >worth its weight in gold, but that it really doubles the usefulness of the >text. How's that for a pick-me-up? Hope all is well with you. Wanna know what I made per hour on that book? $12.50. It happens once in a while. Sometimes I make twice that, which is my goal; once in a while I make more than that. But someone here on Index-L estimated that $40./hr is more realistic for the freelancer to need, given taxes, self-insurance, etc. I guess I get tired of the big bucks idea about indexing -- I think it's something you need to love. Still, I'd be doing all right if I could stay busy all winter, so far an elusive goal. Ah well. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rose Iris Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article In a message dated 97-11-13 22:14:36 EST, you write: << And finally, of course, assigning a figure of $35,000 a year as "possible" earnings for a newbie is just ridiculous. Many of our long-time pros don't even make that much directly from indexing! >> Yikes! Does this mean that most people are not making a living wage from indexing alone? Isn't there enough work to go around? Or are there too many indexers? Should a beginning indexer not expect to be able to support themselves solely from indexing for several years? Rambling Rose ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:35:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article Rose Iris wrote: > > In a message dated 97-11-13 22:14:36 EST, you write: > > << And finally, of course, assigning a figure of > $35,000 a year as "possible" earnings for a newbie is just ridiculous. Many > of our long-time pros don't even make that much directly from indexing! > >> > > Yikes! Does this mean that most people are not making a living wage from > indexing alone? Isn't there enough work to go around? Or are there too > many indexers? Should a beginning indexer not expect to be able to > support themselves solely from indexing for several years? > > Rambling Rose No, it's not that there isn't enough work, it's that the clients have an unrealistic idea of what they should pay for indexing work. The main reason publishers use freelancers, I suppose, is to save on benefits costs, so they won't pay us enough to realistically cover such costs. They already underpay their inhouse editors and such, so they certainly can't see paying more for outsiders. From all I can tell, you can't really make lots of money at this unless you do nothing but work, or are in a technical part of the field where the rates are higher than average. I am only lucky to have a spouse with major earnings capacity and a full benefits package. I would not be doing this if I were on my own, or I'd have to do it part-time, like many of my colleagues. there are some who have viable businesses on their own, but the ones I know have been doing it for more than 10 years. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:18:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article Hi! I'm new to the list. I've been thinking about switching from current career to indexing for quite some time, and I'm ready to take the plunge. (Or at least, get my feet wet!). Does anyone know the citation for the Money magazine article cited by Kathy below (from "a couple of years ago...")? Thanks. Elizabeth McCullough ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathy Barber [SMTP:abarber@PRTEL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 1997 6:08 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: MONEY magazine article > > Dear Index-Lers > > Thought you might be interested in the following Q and A from the > "Money > Helps" column by Lani Luciano in the December issue of Money magazine. > > I'm one of the people who "discovered" indexing through the Money > magazine > article of a couple of years ago, so I appreciate the information that > they > provide, but she makes it sound so easy--almost on the same level as > stuffing envelopes. > > Kathy Barber > Barber Indexing > > > >Q. My wife and I will soon have our first child, and she has quit > work to > care for the baby. Is there anything she can do to earn money at home? > We > just bought a house and can't afford to pay for much training or > equipment, > but we own a computer. > > A. Naturally, you'll be sharing child care and chores with her, so she > can > fit paid work into her more-than-full-time job as a mom, right? I > thought > so. First, she should learn the fundamentals by reading ^How to Start > a > Successful Home Business^ (Warner Books, $10.99; 800-343-9204). Then > she can > narrow down her interests and abilities by consulting ^The Home-Based > Business Occupational Handbook^ (Kendall/Hunt Publishing, $21.95; > 800-228-0810). It describes 175 opportunities, their start-up costs > and the > skills that are required. > Most of these ventures involve some specialized training and > equipment, > but there are low-cost options - for example, book indexing. For just > $286, > the Department of Agriculture (202-720-7213) sells a correspondence > course > that teaches you how to pick out key words for listing in > back-of-the-book > references. Indexers need a 486 PC, indexing software, a fax, a modem > and a > printer. The entire package costs roughly $3,000. But you could pay > less > than $800 to buy just the software if your computer has enough memory > to be > outfitted with it. Possible earnings: $35,000 a year - enough to > afford > babysitters every now and then. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Edgar Allen Poe in cyberspace ROFL! Elsa, where do you find these things?! First the Beatles parodies, and this... I love them! (I would have sent this privately, but I thought other people might be wondering where you come across this stuff, too.) Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:40:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stacey Marner Subject: Re: Edgar Allen Poe in cyberspace In-Reply-To: <9711141434.AA02718@galaxy.mantech-wva.com> These circulated on the copyeditor's list a little while ago and I found the book they all came from. It's called _Poetry for Cats_ and, although I can't remember the guy's name (Henry Beard?), you can find it at amazon.com. They are hilarious. I think Beowulf's cat is my favorite. ("brood kit of Icthmeow"- ) Stacey Marner marners@mantech-wva.com At 09:27 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >ROFL! Elsa, where do you find these things?! First the Beatles parodies, >and this... I love them! > >(I would have sent this privately, but I thought other people might be >wondering where you come across this stuff, too.) > >Kara Pekar >jkpekar@crosslink.net > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:43:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: If Leviticus wrote library rules... Along the lines of Elsa's recent contributions, I offer this (library folks have probably already seen it.) >Library Principles for Students from the Old Testament >Lamentations of the Father >Of the beasts of the field, and of the fishes of the sea, and of all foods that are acceptable in my sight you may eat, but not in the Library. >Of the hoofed animals, broiled or ground into burgers, you may eat, but not in the Library. >Of the cloven-hoofed animal, plain or with cheese, you may eat, but not in the Library. >Of the cereal grains, of the corn and of the wheat and of the oats, and of all the cereals that are of bright color and unknown provenance you may eat, but not in the Library. >Of the round pies of baked dough, topped variously and wondrously with goodness of the Earth, especially with extra garlic and double cheese, you may eat, but not in the Library, neither may you carry such therein. >Of quiescently frozen dessert and of all frozen after-meal treats you may eat, but absolutely not in the Library. >Of the juices and other beverages, you may drink, but not in the Library, unless it is that drink of two parts hydrogen and one of oxygen and then should the mixture be held in a container of the prescribed shape and nature that miraculously does not spill even when uprighted. >Indeed, when you reach the place where the Library carpet begins, of any food or beverage there you may not eat, neither may you drink. >Laws When at Table, in Carrel, or in Wingback >And if you are seated in your comfy chair, keep your legs and feet below you as they were. Neither raise up your knees, nor place your feet upon the table, for that is an abomination to me. Yes, even though this might be something you would do in confines of your own domicile, your feet upon the table are an abomination, and worthy of rebuke. >Draw not with your pens or pencils or other implements of writing upon the table or the books before you, even in pretend, for we do not do that, that is why. Yours shall not be the last eyes to gaze with understanding upon the words so written, and they should be as fresh for your followers as for you and your antecedents. >On Vocal Discourse >Do not speak loudly with thine neighbor or studymate within the Library; for it is as if you scream all the time. If you find a troubling idea foisted upon your eyes between the bindings of a book, your voice rises up even to the ceiling, while you point to the offense with the finger of your right hand; but I say to you, scream not, only remonstrate gently with a knowing nod, that you may correct the fault of the author in your own essay. >Likewise if you find your mind wandering from the soulfulness of your studies, again I say, refrain from conversing with whoever be at hand so that others might not be so distracted. >Play not the electronic gadgets fitted to your ears at such a volume as to cause others to march to your drum machine. >Though the need will eventually arise that you must give in to your ignorance of a matter bibliographic and throw yourself prostrate to the all knowing ones behind the Great Oaken Desk in the Campbell Reference Center, wail not dispairingly nor gnash the teeth loudly, for the sound carries great and far in that part of the library, and then many of your peers will know of your misfortune; behold, I whisper myself, yet do not die. >Various Other Laws, Statutes, and Ordinances >Attempt not to repair broken word carriers with your own tape, for these are matters better left to our specialists. >Forget not that to steal is one of the original sins, and you will be punished woefully, if not now then in the fullness of time. >Although the Library's computers are capable of seeing many wondrous sites in the World, look not upon the lascivious or unscholarly among them, nor print endless reams of things of which those who pay your bills would not approve. > ----Author Unknown Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:50:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat - Sat. 7:00 Don't forget the ICQ chat 7:00 A.M. Central Time Sat. ICQ is a program to enable anyone with any internet provider to come together in a chat room. If you need help downloading the software E-mail me. There is no charge for this program. Susan Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:53:39 -0500 Reply-To: yael@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: YAEL SHANER Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: MONEY magazine article I am exploring the possibility of indexing as a profession, so I read with particular interest the exchange about the MONEY magazine article. I have read the AIS Web pages and am in the process of reading _Indexing from A to Z_ (Wellisch, 1995), but have some additional questions: 1. While everyone has different abilities, motivation and education, what is the learning curve for indexing proficiency? 2. Considering the marketing and other skills that must be learned to run a business, how long does it take to get good enough/fast enough to make an income from indexing? 3. Should one become an "expert" in one or more fields to become more marketable? 4. How necessary/helpful are library science classes? All information gratefully accepted. Yael Shaner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article To those of you who are once again fascinated by the Money magazine little "blurb" on indexing -- I have to say this. Take all articles such as the Money magazine articles (past and present) on easy ways to make money with a grain of salt. Here's my take on such articles -- as an experienced indexer: Articles like that gloss over the complexities of indexing, and paint a rosy picture. They don't tell you how much work is involved, how long you must train to do an adequate, competitive job on your early indexes so that you get repeat business and build a clientele. The people who write those articles couldn't possibly be aware of the amount of intellectual analysis and intelligence needed to do the work they're writing about. Nor do they mention that good business, organization, and communication skills are needed to do the marketing and contacting that has to be a part of building a business. They don't usually mention time management, nor do I feel they give an accurate picture of home office and equipment needs of of the training required to be an adequate indexer. First and foremost, they fail to remind the reader that this is a business venture, and (1) that it can be slow in starting and yielding a living wage, (2) that this isn't for everybody (we all have our strengths -- and weaknesses!), and (3) that one can fail, too. These articles are broad brushstroke kinds of things. They sound enticing. But the old saying holds -- it if seems to good to be true, it probably is!! On the flip side, let me reassure some of you out there who are at the beginning end of your indexing careers that it *is* possible to build this into a going business, earning you a living wage -- if you have the ability and training in the first place. If you've got what it takes, you can make a living at this. Not easy, but do-able. Be prepared to work darned hard, and to learn new business skills as well as indexing expertise as you go along. This is a business, like any other business. Cash flow, time management, advertising and marketing decisions, rate and price decisions, equipment purchases, bookkeeping and banking, and taxes. Always taxes. Hope this puts the issue into a different perspective. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:12:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Edgar Allen Poe in cyberspace In-Reply-To: <199711141435.JAA04549@beavis.inetdirect.net> >ROFL! Elsa, where do you find these things?! First the Beatles parodies, >and this... I love them! > >(I would have sent this privately, but I thought other people might be >wondering where you come across this stuff, too.) > >Kara Pekar >jkpekar@crosslink.net Kara et al. -- I have friends throughout cyberspace who know I have a wacky sense of humor and can always use a laugh. I'm glad you're enjoying them, too. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... To see your drama clearly is to be liberated from it. -- Ken Keyes, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:17:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... In-Reply-To: <199711141452.JAA07883@beavis.inetdirect.net> >Along the lines of Elsa's recent contributions, I offer this (library folks >have probably already seen it.) > > >>Library Principles for Students from the Old Testament It's interesting how these things mutate. Here is the version I received: > Household Principles for Children from the Old Testament -- >Lamentations of the Father > > Laws of Forbidden Places > ------------------------ > Of the beasts of the field, and of the fishes of the sea, and of all >foods that are acceptable in my sight you may eat, but not in the living >room. Of the hoofed animals, broiled or ground into burgers, you may >eat, but not in the living room. Of the cloven-hoofed animal, plain or >with cheese, you may eat, but not in the living room. Of the cereal >grains, of the corn and of the wheat and of the oats, and of all the >cereals that are of bright color and unknown provenance you may eat, but >not in the living room. Of quiescently frozen dessert and of all frozen >after-meal treats you may eat, but absolutely not in the living room. > > Of the juices and other beverages, yes, even of those in sippy-cups, >you may drink, but not in the living room, neither may you carry such >therein. Indeed, when you reach the place where the living room carpet >begins, of any food or beverage there you may not eat, neither may you >drink. But if you are sick, and are lying down and watching something, >then may you eat in the living room. > > Laws When at Table > ------------------ > And if you are seated in your high chair, or in a chair such as a >greater person might use, keep your legs and feet below you as they >were. Neither raise up your knees, nor place your feet upon the table, >for that is an abomination to me. Yes, even when you have an interesting >bandage to show, your feet upon the table are an abomination, and worthy >of rebuke. > > Drink your milk as it is given you, neither use on it any utensils, nor >fork, nor knife, nor spoon, for that is not what they are for; if you >will dip your blocks in the milk, and lick it off, you will be sent >away. > > When you have drunk, let the empty cup then remain upon the table, and >do not bite it upon its edge and by your teeth hold it to your face in >order to make noises in it sounding like a duck: for you will be sent >away. > > When you chew your food, keep your mouth closed until you have >swallowed, and do not open it to show your brother or your sister what >is within; I say to you, do not so, even if your brother or your sister >has done the same to you. > > Eat your food only; do not eat that which is not food; neither seize >the table between your jaws, nor use the raiment of the table to wipe >your lips. I say again to you, do not touch it, but leave it as it is. > > And though your stick of carrot does indeed resemble a marker, draw not >with it upon the table, even in pretend, for we do not do that, that is >why. And though the pieces of broccoli are very like small trees, do not >stand them upright to make a forest, because we do not do that, that is >why. > > Sit just as I have told you, and do not lean to one side or the other, >nor slide down until you are nearly slid away. Heed me; for if you sit >like that, your hair will go into the syrup. And now behold, even as I >have said, it has come to pass. > > Laws Pertaining to Dessert > -------------------------- > For we judge between the plate that is unclean and the plate that is >clean, saying first, if the plate is clean, then you shall have dessert. > > But of the unclean plate, the laws are these: If you have eaten most of >your meat, and two bites of your peas with each bite consisting of not >less than three peas each, or in total six peas, eaten where I can see, >and you have also eaten enough of your potatoes to fill two forks, both >forkfuls eaten where I can see, then you shall have dessert. > > But if you eat a lesser number of peas, and yet you eat the potatoes, >still you shall not have dessert; and if you eat the peas, yet leave the >potatoes uneaten, you shall not have dessert, no, not even a small >portion thereof. > > And if you try to deceive by moving the potatoes or peas around with a >fork, that it may appear you have eaten what you have not, you will fall >into iniquity. And I will know, and you shall have no dessert. > > On Screaming > ------------ > Do not scream; for it is as if you scream all the time. If you are >given a plate on which two foods you do not wish to touch each other are >touching each other, your voice rises up even to the ceiling, while you >point to the offense with the finger of your right hand; but I say to >you, scream not, only remonstrate gently with the server, that the >server may correct the fault. > > Likewise if you receive a portion of fish from which every piece of >herbal seasoning has not been scraped off, and the herbal seasoning is >loathsome to you and steeped in vileness, again I say, refrain from >screaming. Though the vileness overwhelm you, and cause you a faint unto >death, make not that sound from within your throat, neither cover your >face, nor press your fingers to your nose. For even I have made the fish >as it should be; behold, I eat it myself, yet do not die. > > Concerning Face and Hands > ------------------------- > Cast your countenance upward to the light, and lift your eyes to the >hills, that I may more easily wash you off. For the stains are upon you; >even to the very back of your head, there is rice thereon. > > And in the breast pocket of your garment, and upon the tie of your >shoe, rice and other fragments are distributed in a manner wonderful to >see. > > Only hold yourself still; hold still, I say. Give each finger in its >turn for my examination thereof, and also each thumb. Lo, how iniquitous >they appear. What I do is as it must be; and you shall not go hence >until I have done. > > Various Other Laws, Statutes, and Ordinances > -------------------------------------------- > Bite not, lest you be cast into quiet time. Neither drink of your own >bath water, nor of the bath water of any kind; nor rub your feet on >bread, even if it be in the package; nor rub yourself against cars, not >against any building; nor eat sand. > > Leave the cat alone, for what has the cat done, that you should so >afflict it with tape? And hum not the humming in your nose as I read, >nor stand between the light and the book. Indeed, you will drive me to >madness. Nor forget what I said about the tape. > Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... To see your drama clearly is to be liberated from it. -- Ken Keyes, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:18:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Venneman Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article Thanks Janet for a wonderful response. As someone who IS in the beginner phase, I have been concerned that those who find themselves here after reading the article will not take the time to find out if indexing or any other career is a good match for them personally as well as their present situation in life. For me, time will tell but I feel the 8 months I "looked into" indexing and then the 10 months it took to complete the course has been helpful in allowing the initial enthusiasm to give way to recognizing what lies ahead. Much of that knowledge has come with reading the generous and honest comments on this list. Just a beginner's .02. Pamela Venneman Lighthouse Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:16:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: James Curtis Subject: Re: AOL Bookindexer's Chat Log List List me At 05:03 PM 11/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hi I am going to create a mailing list for the AOL Bookindexer's Chat log so >that you won't have to keep mailing me and asking me to send you the log. If >you would like to be included on the list just reply "List Me". When I offer >the log to the index list you don't have to reply you will get it >automatically. > >Susan >Bookindexr@aol.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:36:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: MONEY magazine article In-Reply-To: <199711141620.LAA24967@beavis.inetdirect.net> Once upon a time I interviewed for an upper management position with the CEO of a computer book publishing company. I was accustomed to positions that required both editorial skill and financial acumen. The CEO almost angrily asserted that it is not possible for a human being to have both types of talent, that one is either a creative person or a details person. I tried carefully to explain how those skills may cross over in certain individuals, but to no avail. If I was unable to clearly describe myself in terms of one or the other, he would not consider me for employment. I recognize now what a good example indexing would have been for me to offer up for his examination. Good indexing absolutely requires that both halves of one's brain be well-developed and working in tandem. I would suggest this to anyone considering it as a career or some part of one, because this is how I encourage myself: If you recognize that you are both creative and anal, you have the potential to be a very good indexer. (By anal, I mean compulsive about details, and not how neat you keep your office. ) Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... To see your drama clearly is to be liberated from it. -- Ken Keyes, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:54:36 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Barber Subject: Re: the original MONEY magazine article At 09:18 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: > Does anyone know the citation for the Money magazine article cited by Kathy below (from "a couple of years ago...")? Thanks. > >Elizabeth McCullough >___________________________________________ > It's from the August 1995 issue, the "Your Worklife" column by Lesley Alderman. The article is two pages of "good ideas" for starting a business at home with a personal computer. Medical transcriptionist, scopist, and mailing-list service are also described. Here is the section on indexing: >Book indexer. In the first month of becoming an indexer, Matthew Spence, 44, >of Middletown, Calif. couldn't stop categorizing: rooms of furniture, people, >canned goods in the supermarket. Now, four years later, he's learned to turn >off his mind after work. Still, to be a good indexer, he says, you must be >meticulous. The nation's more than 1,000 indexers scan nonfiction manuscripts >for key words and concepts, then input those into special software that sorts >and arranges the information. >You'll need to take an indexing course and spend $3,000 for a 486 PC, indexing >software, a fax modem and a printer. Spence initially found his publishing >clients through relentless cold calling and now averages $50,000 a year. His >tip: Specialize in order to get steady work at premium rates. >For more details: The American Society of Indexers ($50 a year; 512-749-4052. >The United States Department of Agriculture Graduate School offers a basic >correspondence course ($281; 202-720-7123). It does not promise that you can earn $70,000 a year or even $50,000. And honestly, I assumed that figure to be optimistic when I saw it. How much I could make was not all that important anyway. What attracted me to indexing was the part about categorizing. When I got more information from ASI, I was even more convinced that I was "born to index." Two years, one USDA course and lots of independent study later, I have done several indexes and the money still isn't all that important, well...it's not THE most important thing anyway. Indexing fits my lifestyle. I'm independent, I can live out here at the end of civilization in northern Minnesota and still have a "real" career (as opposed to working at Wal-Mart). It may not have been a great article but I'm sure glad I saw it! Oops--almost forgot to mention how much Index-L has helped me along the way. Thanks everyone. Should also mention that Matthew Spence wrote an article, "How to Get Clients" (Key Words 1/4, Jan/Feb 93, page 4). It has been reprinted in the ASI publication, "Marketing Your Indexing Services." Kathy Barber Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:49:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... In light of the recent copyright discussion, I thought I might point out that this was published in The Atlantic Magazine a few months ago. I forget the authore - Ian Frazier, perhaps? Elizabeth ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: Elsa F. Kramer [SMTP:efk@NETDIRECT.NET] > Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 11:17 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... > > >Along the lines of Elsa's recent contributions, I offer this (library > folks > >have probably already seen it.) > > > > > >>Library Principles for Students from the Old Testament > > > > It's interesting how these things mutate. Here is the version I > received: > > > Household Principles for Children from the Old Testament -- > >Lamentations of the Father > > > > Laws of Forbidden Places > > ------------------------ > > Of the beasts of the field, and of the fishes of the sea, and of all > >foods that are acceptable in my sight you may eat, but not in the > living > >room. Of the hoofed animals, broiled or ground into burgers, you may > >eat, but not in the living room. Of the cloven-hoofed animal, plain > or > >with cheese, you may eat, but not in the living room. Of the cereal > >grains, of the corn and of the wheat and of the oats, and of all the > >cereals that are of bright color and unknown provenance you may eat, > but > >not in the living room. Of quiescently frozen dessert and of all > frozen > >after-meal treats you may eat, but absolutely not in the living room. > > > > Of the juices and other beverages, yes, even of those in sippy-cups, > >you may drink, but not in the living room, neither may you carry such > >therein. Indeed, when you reach the place where the living room > carpet > >begins, of any food or beverage there you may not eat, neither may > you > >drink. But if you are sick, and are lying down and watching > something, > >then may you eat in the living room. > > > > Laws When at Table > > ------------------ > > And if you are seated in your high chair, or in a chair such as a > >greater person might use, keep your legs and feet below you as they > >were. Neither raise up your knees, nor place your feet upon the > table, > >for that is an abomination to me. Yes, even when you have an > interesting > >bandage to show, your feet upon the table are an abomination, and > worthy > >of rebuke. > > > > Drink your milk as it is given you, neither use on it any utensils, > nor > >fork, nor knife, nor spoon, for that is not what they are for; if you > >will dip your blocks in the milk, and lick it off, you will be sent > >away. > > > > When you have drunk, let the empty cup then remain upon the table, > and > >do not bite it upon its edge and by your teeth hold it to your face > in > >order to make noises in it sounding like a duck: for you will be sent > >away. > > > > When you chew your food, keep your mouth closed until you have > >swallowed, and do not open it to show your brother or your sister > what > >is within; I say to you, do not so, even if your brother or your > sister > >has done the same to you. > > > > Eat your food only; do not eat that which is not food; neither seize > >the table between your jaws, nor use the raiment of the table to wipe > >your lips. I say again to you, do not touch it, but leave it as it > is. > > > > And though your stick of carrot does indeed resemble a marker, draw > not > >with it upon the table, even in pretend, for we do not do that, that > is > >why. And though the pieces of broccoli are very like small trees, do > not > >stand them upright to make a forest, because we do not do that, that > is > >why. > > > > Sit just as I have told you, and do not lean to one side or the > other, > >nor slide down until you are nearly slid away. Heed me; for if you > sit > >like that, your hair will go into the syrup. And now behold, even as > I > >have said, it has come to pass. > > > > Laws Pertaining to Dessert > > -------------------------- > > For we judge between the plate that is unclean and the plate that is > >clean, saying first, if the plate is clean, then you shall have > dessert. > > > > But of the unclean plate, the laws are these: If you have eaten most > of > >your meat, and two bites of your peas with each bite consisting of > not > >less than three peas each, or in total six peas, eaten where I can > see, > >and you have also eaten enough of your potatoes to fill two forks, > both > >forkfuls eaten where I can see, then you shall have dessert. > > > > But if you eat a lesser number of peas, and yet you eat the > potatoes, > >still you shall not have dessert; and if you eat the peas, yet leave > the > >potatoes uneaten, you shall not have dessert, no, not even a small > >portion thereof. > > > > And if you try to deceive by moving the potatoes or peas around with > a > >fork, that it may appear you have eaten what you have not, you will > fall > >into iniquity. And I will know, and you shall have no dessert. > > > > On Screaming > > ------------ > > Do not scream; for it is as if you scream all the time. If you are > >given a plate on which two foods you do not wish to touch each other > are > >touching each other, your voice rises up even to the ceiling, while > you > >point to the offense with the finger of your right hand; but I say to > >you, scream not, only remonstrate gently with the server, that the > >server may correct the fault. > > > > Likewise if you receive a portion of fish from which every piece of > >herbal seasoning has not been scraped off, and the herbal seasoning > is > >loathsome to you and steeped in vileness, again I say, refrain from > >screaming. Though the vileness overwhelm you, and cause you a faint > unto > >death, make not that sound from within your throat, neither cover > your > >face, nor press your fingers to your nose. For even I have made the > fish > >as it should be; behold, I eat it myself, yet do not die. > > > > Concerning Face and Hands > > ------------------------- > > Cast your countenance upward to the light, and lift your eyes to the > >hills, that I may more easily wash you off. For the stains are upon > you; > >even to the very back of your head, there is rice thereon. > > > > And in the breast pocket of your garment, and upon the tie of your > >shoe, rice and other fragments are distributed in a manner wonderful > to > >see. > > > > Only hold yourself still; hold still, I say. Give each finger in its > >turn for my examination thereof, and also each thumb. Lo, how > iniquitous > >they appear. What I do is as it must be; and you shall not go hence > >until I have done. > > > > Various Other Laws, Statutes, and Ordinances > > -------------------------------------------- > > Bite not, lest you be cast into quiet time. Neither drink of your > own > >bath water, nor of the bath water of any kind; nor rub your feet on > >bread, even if it be in the package; nor rub yourself against cars, > not > >against any building; nor eat sand. > > > > Leave the cat alone, for what has the cat done, that you should so > >afflict it with tape? And hum not the humming in your nose as I read, > >nor stand between the light and the book. Indeed, you will drive me > to > >madness. Nor forget what I said about the tape. > > > > Elsa Kramer > Indianapolis > ..................................................... > To see your drama clearly is to be liberated from it. > -- Ken Keyes, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:52:35 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Charge for HTML tagging At 11:41 AM 11/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >In this case, since you are taking previously written stuff and doing this, >I would charge hourly. And at least $35.00 or more per hour, since what you >are doing involves you having more technical knowledge than just indexing. >You will need to design the final output - does it have lettered links >across the top, do you need "return to top of page" after each alpha group, >will it be one long page or several single pages, will you need to have any >special frames or tables? You have to know HTML to check your results >after running HTML prep, you will have to test the results, and you need to >know more than just Cindex. These are all factors in an hourly rate. > >There really isn't a breakdown that would work for charges other than >hourly for this kind of work... I do HTML work for my current employer and Jan's right about all the follow-through work you need to do. Actually, I think $35 per hour is on the low side if you must get involved with doing frames, cgi, java scripts, internal/external links, and graphics conversion and placement. Depending on how complex the requested bells and whistles are, there's more involved than just "putting it into a wordprocessor format". No offense to Dave and LevTech (I'm looking for some of this software for my home computer), but make sure you understand what the software is placing into the document. I've seen a few examples of folks using such programs to 'webify' a document intended for print and being angry and frustrated when it doesn't perform correctly. [...] Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:23:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eileen Allen Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... In-Reply-To: <199711141644.LAA00744@snapdragon.textwise.com> Thank you Elizabeth, for pointing this out. I have been interested in printing excerpts in our church newsletter, but needed to research the copyright issues first. Eileen Allen On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, McCullough, Elizabeth W wrote: > In light of the recent copyright discussion, I thought I might point out > that this was published in The Atlantic Magazine a few months ago. I > forget the authore - Ian Frazier, perhaps? > > Elizabeth > ___________________________________________ > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Elsa F. Kramer [SMTP:efk@NETDIRECT.NET] > > Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 11:17 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... > > > > >Along the lines of Elsa's recent contributions, I offer this (library > > folks > > >have probably already seen it.) > > > > > > > > >>Library Principles for Students from the Old Testament > > > > > > > > It's interesting how these things mutate. Here is the version I > > received: > > > > > Household Principles for Children from the Old Testament -- > > >Lamentations of the Father > > > > > > Laws of Forbidden Places > > > ------------------------ > > > Of the beasts of the field, and of the fishes of the sea, and of all > > >foods that are acceptable in my sight you may eat, but not in the > > living > > >room. Of the hoofed animals, broiled or ground into burgers, you may > > >eat, but not in the living room. Of the cloven-hoofed animal, plain > > or > > >with cheese, you may eat, but not in the living room. Of the cereal > > >grains, of the corn and of the wheat and of the oats, and of all the > > >cereals that are of bright color and unknown provenance you may eat, > > but > > >not in the living room. Of quiescently frozen dessert and of all > > frozen > > >after-meal treats you may eat, but absolutely not in the living room. > > > > > > Of the juices and other beverages, yes, even of those in sippy-cups, > > >you may drink, but not in the living room, neither may you carry such > > >therein. Indeed, when you reach the place where the living room > > carpet > > >begins, of any food or beverage there you may not eat, neither may > > you > > >drink. But if you are sick, and are lying down and watching > > something, > > >then may you eat in the living room. > > > > > > Laws When at Table > > > ------------------ > > > And if you are seated in your high chair, or in a chair such as a > > >greater person might use, keep your legs and feet below you as they > > >were. Neither raise up your knees, nor place your feet upon the > > table, > > >for that is an abomination to me. Yes, even when you have an > > interesting > > >bandage to show, your feet upon the table are an abomination, and > > worthy > > >of rebuke. > > > > > > Drink your milk as it is given you, neither use on it any utensils, > > nor > > >fork, nor knife, nor spoon, for that is not what they are for; if you > > >will dip your blocks in the milk, and lick it off, you will be sent > > >away. > > > > > > When you have drunk, let the empty cup then remain upon the table, > > and > > >do not bite it upon its edge and by your teeth hold it to your face > > in > > >order to make noises in it sounding like a duck: for you will be sent > > >away. > > > > > > When you chew your food, keep your mouth closed until you have > > >swallowed, and do not open it to show your brother or your sister > > what > > >is within; I say to you, do not so, even if your brother or your > > sister > > >has done the same to you. > > > > > > Eat your food only; do not eat that which is not food; neither seize > > >the table between your jaws, nor use the raiment of the table to wipe > > >your lips. I say again to you, do not touch it, but leave it as it > > is. > > > > > > And though your stick of carrot does indeed resemble a marker, draw > > not > > >with it upon the table, even in pretend, for we do not do that, that > > is > > >why. And though the pieces of broccoli are very like small trees, do > > not > > >stand them upright to make a forest, because we do not do that, that > > is > > >why. > > > > > > Sit just as I have told you, and do not lean to one side or the > > other, > > >nor slide down until you are nearly slid away. Heed me; for if you > > sit > > >like that, your hair will go into the syrup. And now behold, even as > > I > > >have said, it has come to pass. > > > > > > Laws Pertaining to Dessert > > > -------------------------- > > > For we judge between the plate that is unclean and the plate that is > > >clean, saying first, if the plate is clean, then you shall have > > dessert. > > > > > > But of the unclean plate, the laws are these: If you have eaten most > > of > > >your meat, and two bites of your peas with each bite consisting of > > not > > >less than three peas each, or in total six peas, eaten where I can > > see, > > >and you have also eaten enough of your potatoes to fill two forks, > > both > > >forkfuls eaten where I can see, then you shall have dessert. > > > > > > But if you eat a lesser number of peas, and yet you eat the > > potatoes, > > >still you shall not have dessert; and if you eat the peas, yet leave > > the > > >potatoes uneaten, you shall not have dessert, no, not even a small > > >portion thereof. > > > > > > And if you try to deceive by moving the potatoes or peas around with > > a > > >fork, that it may appear you have eaten what you have not, you will > > fall > > >into iniquity. And I will know, and you shall have no dessert. > > > > > > On Screaming > > > ------------ > > > Do not scream; for it is as if you scream all the time. If you are > > >given a plate on which two foods you do not wish to touch each other > > are > > >touching each other, your voice rises up even to the ceiling, while > > you > > >point to the offense with the finger of your right hand; but I say to > > >you, scream not, only remonstrate gently with the server, that the > > >server may correct the fault. > > > > > > Likewise if you receive a portion of fish from which every piece of > > >herbal seasoning has not been scraped off, and the herbal seasoning > > is > > >loathsome to you and steeped in vileness, again I say, refrain from > > >screaming. Though the vileness overwhelm you, and cause you a faint > > unto > > >death, make not that sound from within your throat, neither cover > > your > > >face, nor press your fingers to your nose. For even I have made the > > fish > > >as it should be; behold, I eat it myself, yet do not die. > > > > > > Concerning Face and Hands > > > ------------------------- > > > Cast your countenance upward to the light, and lift your eyes to the > > >hills, that I may more easily wash you off. For the stains are upon > > you; > > >even to the very back of your head, there is rice thereon. > > > > > > And in the breast pocket of your garment, and upon the tie of your > > >shoe, rice and other fragments are distributed in a manner wonderful > > to > > >see. > > > > > > Only hold yourself still; hold still, I say. Give each finger in its > > >turn for my examination thereof, and also each thumb. Lo, how > > iniquitous > > >they appear. What I do is as it must be; and you shall not go hence > > >until I have done. > > > > > > Various Other Laws, Statutes, and Ordinances > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > Bite not, lest you be cast into quiet time. Neither drink of your > > own > > >bath water, nor of the bath water of any kind; nor rub your feet on > > >bread, even if it be in the package; nor rub yourself against cars, > > not > > >against any building; nor eat sand. > > > > > > Leave the cat alone, for what has the cat done, that you should so > > >afflict it with tape? And hum not the humming in your nose as I read, > > >nor stand between the light and the book. Indeed, you will drive me > > to > > >madness. Nor forget what I said about the tape. > > > > > > > Elsa Kramer > > Indianapolis > > ..................................................... > > To see your drama clearly is to be liberated from it. > > -- Ken Keyes, Jr. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:18:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... Elizabeth McCullough wrote: > In light of the recent copyright discussion, I thought I might point out > that this [the rules for children as from the Old Testament - KP] >was published in The Atlantic Magazine a few months ago. I >forget the authore - Ian Frazier, perhaps? > > Elizabeth > ___________________________________________ Thanks, Elizabeth! Anyone know who did the library rules version? I posted it without an author since that is how it came to me (forwarded through 4 different people, and found by one of them on a list somewhere, so I had no way of tracking it down.) And thank you, Elsa, for the children's version, which had me laughing so hard I had tears streaming down my cheeks. As the parent of a three-year-old, it really hit home! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:50:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... I'm thinking of reading the children's version to mine on a weekly basis. Perhaps if I start now (they're 7 & 4), they'll believe it really IS scripture! Elizabeth ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: John and Kara Pekar [SMTP:jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET] > Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 12:18 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: If Leviticus wrote library rules... > > Elizabeth McCullough wrote: > > In light of the recent copyright discussion, I thought I might point > out > > that this [the rules for children as from the Old Testament - KP] > >was published in The Atlantic Magazine a few months ago. I > >forget the authore - Ian Frazier, perhaps? > > > > Elizabeth > > ___________________________________________ > > Thanks, Elizabeth! Anyone know who did the library rules version? I > posted it without an author since that is how it came to me (forwarded > through 4 different people, and found by one of them on a list > somewhere, > so I had no way of tracking it down.) > > And thank you, Elsa, for the children's version, which had me laughing > so > hard I had tears streaming down my cheeks. As the parent of a > three-year-old, it really hit home! > > Kara Pekar > jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:09:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: the original MONEY magazine article At 10:54 AM 11/14/97 -0600, you wrote: > >It does not promise that you can earn $70,000 a year or even $50,000. And >honestly, Must be a different article, then. There most definitely was an article wherein they interviewed an indexer (in the Pacific Northwest, I believe) who claimed that he *averaged* $50k per year in his first four years. I read the article at the time and don't disagree that one can make $50k by one's fourth year, I am seriously skeptical that one can *average* $50k for the first four years. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: the original MONEY magazine article Oops. There is the reference to $50k. At 10:54 AM 11/14/97 -0600, you wrote: > Spence initially found his >publishing >clients through relentless cold calling and now averages $50,000 >a year. His >tip: Specialize in order to get steady work at premium rates. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:04:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Dr. Seuss (fwd) I hope you're not sorry you're encouraging me to forward these. : ) > WHAT IF DR. SEUSS WROTE COMPUTER TECH MANUALS? > > If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, > And the bus is interrupted as a very last resort, > And the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, > Then the socket packet pocket has an error to report! > > If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, > And the double-clicking icons put your window in the trash, > And your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash, > Then your situation's hopeless, and your system's gonna crash! > > If the label on your cable on the gable at your house, > Says the network is connected to the button on your mouse, > But your packets want to tunnel to another protocol, > That's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall > > And your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss, > So your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse, > Then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang, > "Cause as sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang! > > When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk, > And the microcode instructions cause unnecessary RISC, > Then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM > Quickly turn off your computer and be sure to tell your mom. > Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... To see your drama clearly is to be liberated from it. -- Ken Keyes, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:58:48 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: ICQ Book Indexers Chat - Sat. 7:00 Susan 8 in the morning is awfully early for a Saturday. How is the baby? Suellen On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:50:09 -0500 Susan Wilkerson writes: >Don't forget the ICQ chat 7:00 A.M. Central Time Sat. ICQ is a program >to >enable anyone with any internet provider to come together in a chat >room. If >you need help downloading the software E-mail me. There is no charge >for this >program. > >Susan >Bookindexr@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:58:55 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: Re: AOL Bookindexer's Chat Log List List me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:45:31 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: *Change* the mailing address to request AOL chat log Those of you requesting the AOL chat log, please don't just automatically click on your reply button!!! __Change__ the 'mail to' address and send your requests **directly** to Susan ---> Bookindexr@aol.com (not to Index-L).