From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 25-NOV-1997 21:02:45.26 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9710B" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:31:38 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9710B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:44:08 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Main entry commas In-Reply-To: <199710070647.XAA02638@pacific.net> I would like to make it clear that my previous post on this subject referred to commas following main entries in an indented-format index. I stated that they were basically extraneous and could be deleted: main entry, subentry, xx subentry, xx I am in fact quite strongly attached to the commas between entries and locators. I've never agreed with the standard to delete the commas before reference locators, and I'm thankful my clients expect to see it. In a run-in style index, I also prefer to see a colon follow main entries with no locators of their own, before the subentries begin. main entry: subentry, xx, xx; subentry, xx, xx Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:48:39 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Le Roux, Sanet" Subject: Re: Society of Indexers (UK) Suzanne Try e-mail to Christine Shuttleworth: ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com I am currently doing their indexing correspondence course. Regards, Sanet le Roux Library and Information Service SANS Fibres (Pty) Ltd South Africa > ---------- > From: Suzanne Eggins[SMTP:S.Eggins@UNSW.EDU.AU] > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 12:21 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Society of Indexers (UK) > > Would anyone be able to forward to me an email address for the Society > of > Indexers (UK)? Or, failing that, a fax number? > > Many thanks, > > Suzanne Eggins > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:26:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Society of Indexers (UK) Suzanne Eggins wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Terry Rustin Subject: Entry format for subject with Roman Numerals In-Reply-To: <199710062105.QAA23966@formby.tenet.edu> I have never faced this one before, although I suspect that the answer is obvious to many. In a subject index for a book with many Biblical citations, where do entries for I Samuel and I Kings go? The (British) publisher does not want any punctuation in entries. This is for the subject index; I already have a separate index for citations of lines from text. Thanks. Laura Rustin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Entry format for subject with Roman Numerals -Reply Every Biblical publication that I've ever seen ignores the Roman numerals and sorts I Samuel under "S" and I Kings under "K". Does your program have a sort code that will allow the program to ignore the first letter in the line? I believe that most do. >>> Terry Rustin 10/08/97 08:44am >>> I have never faced this one before, although I suspect that the answer is obvious to many. In a subject index for a book with many Biblical citations, where do entries for I Samuel and I Kings go? The (British) publisher does not want any punctuation in entries. This is for the subject index; I already have a separate index for citations of lines from text. Thanks. Laura Rustin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:16:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Entry format for subject with Roman Numerals Two possible ways occur to me. The first would be to sort all numbers/symbols prior to A-Zs so that I Kings I Samuel II Kings II Samuel etc would precede Absolom-Zechariah. The second would force the numerals to be filed as spoken so that famines fires (first)I Kings (first)I Samuel Nadrach (second)II Kings etc would list with the Roman numerals printed but not used in the alphabetical sort. I have a similar project, but have not been required to eschew punctuation, so am also interested in how others might handle this. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:52:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: Lynn's Surgery Lynn had triple-bypass surgery yesterday and when I called the surgical ICU about 10:00 p.m. PST she was doing fine. I will call again later today for a condition update but should be able to talk directly to her late Thursday or Friday if all goes well. Sorry for the delay... I connect to Index-L through an internet provider and AOL and the connection between my provider and AOL was down. Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:55:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: Help with medical terminology Nancy, One more thing to add to the other comments: "Vasculitic syndromes" refers to a group of diseases in which the presence of vasculitis is one of the defining characteristics of a number of symptoms or conditions that define the diagnosis. Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:13:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: bending a rule (This is my first post to Index-L, although I have been a subscriber for several months.) I'm indexing a book that includes several case reports with each report being a separate short chapter. Now then, according to indexing rules and the clients guidelines one should not create an index entry to represent a chapter. However, with these case reports, to follow the rules and leave them out of the index it would seem like an omission. For example, there is a case report/chapter on a river called Bear Creek. I already have Bear Creek in the index to refer to several other locations in the book. I feel that all significant references to Bear Creek including the chapter (or most of it) should be in the index. There are many instances like this throughout the book. I plan to discuss this with my client, but I would like a little feedback from other indexers first. Thanks in advance for you help. Mel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:10:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LBaker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: bending a rule Larry Baker@ITP 10/08/97 10:10 AM Regarding the practice of indexing chapters, from a publisher's viewpoint, what we frequently do is boldface the page number sequence to show that the subject in question is covered as a chapter (or, alternatively, as an "entry"--> we do lots of directories, biographical essays, etc.). We typically indicate what the boldface numbers mean in a little note at the beginning of the index (or in a running footer)--> the same place where you might indicate that an italicized locater refers to illustrations, for instance. Larry Baker LBaker@gale.com Gale Research Mgendx@AOL.COM on 10/08/97 10:13:20 AM Please respond to INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU To: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU cc: (bcc: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing) Subject: bending a rule (This is my first post to Index-L, although I have been a subscriber for several months.) I'm indexing a book that includes several case reports with each report being a separate short chapter. Now then, according to indexing rules and the clients guidelines one should not create an index entry to represent a chapter. However, with these case reports, to follow the rules and leave them out of the index it would seem like an omission. For example, there is a case report/chapter on a river called Bear Creek. I already have Bear Creek in the index to refer to several other locations in the book. I feel that all significant references to Bear Creek including the chapter (or most of it) should be in the index. There are many instances like this throughout the book. I plan to discuss this with my client, but I would like a little feedback from other indexers first. Thanks in advance for you help. Mel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: ASI Directory Blues Hi all Index-Lers, Just a note about what I know on the ASI membership directory and its problems -- NOT the Indexer Services (the locator piece) since I know little about that - just the membership directory. Over the last year and a half, the ASI administrative office has been working with a professional programmer to build a new database system, one that will eliminate duplicate recordkeeping and multiple files that the previous database required keeping up to date. The new one will be one single simple system, that will keep track of everything, and will be easy to update and change as ASI grows and members' information changes. The new system will also allow the Office to output records and mailing labels in a variety of formats, and produce files ready to go into layout for the membership directory. Building the new database has not been an easy task. When the new database system was ready, the office imported the old records and then proceeded to work on eliminating duplicates, errors, and other problems. They also needed to test the new database with real data, while maintaining the older one to insure accuracy. Sample runs of mailing labels and other tasks are run on both, and both the old database and the new one are being maintained at this time to make sure that when ASI switches to the new one completely, it works perfectly. There are still little things that need to be ironed out. Bringing up the new database happened at the same time as we were trying to get the membership directory out, and get information to the Indexer Services directory folks as well. So the membership directory went out with some problems in it - addresses we didn't know were incorrect, perhaps the record was corrupted and didn't import correctly, or we choose the wrong one when multiple addresses were given. I did the design and the layout of the directory, and we were correcting things right up to the last minute. It was proofread against itself, but could not be proofread against the older files as well. I've also heard a lot of complaints about the fact that there are no fax numbers listed in the membership directory, and I wanted to talk about some of the decisions that had to be made with the membership directory. We now have so many members, and so many members with email addresses, that the directory will have to expand to the next size and style of binding and cost a lot more if we include every bit of each member's data in it. The decision was made this time to include one email address, and not fax numbers, URL's, multiple email addresses, multiple delivery addresses, and other information. It was decided that email addresses were most important. There was not room to put in all that other data for everyone, not without costing nearly twice as much. It is simply a membership directory, not a marketing piece, which is distributed to ASI members, not to publishers. If you take a look at the Society for Technical Communication's membership directory, you see exactly the same type of data on each member, no more. We didn't realize how important fax numbers were to you. It was our thinking that if you wanted more information out about your business, that you would use The Indexer Services directory, which has room for URL's, descriptions, fax numbers, multiple email addresses, PO boxes and street delivery addreses, etc. I have spoken with Alexandra Nickerson about the concerns people have been expressing about the directory and she told me that steps are being taken to address them. Plans are to produce the new directory sooner than usual, hopefully by December or January this year. Proof of listings will be sent to members themselves for verification and a cost-effective format to permit inclusion of additional phone and fax numbers is being sought. When you proof your membership directory listing, be sure to put your primary address, your primary phone number, your primary email address, and for those of us with complex names, indicate which part of your name is your last name -- your primary access point. Many folks listed multiple addresses and email addresses, and we only had room for one. We chose whatever was listed first, and sometimes we chose wrong. Put in the most important information, as the office may need to pull only certain kinds of information for certain needs (mailing labels, referrals, the directory), and indicating your most important stuff helps make sure they get it right. In the meantime, sending your address corrections and updates to the office when you notice errors is the best thing you can do (asi@well.com). I think we can all be understanding during this transition time, while the office gets the new system full of your corrected data. The office, ASI officers, and volunteers are working to correct the problems in the next membership directory that goes out. If you have suggestions for improving the membership directory, please forward them by email or in writing to the admin office (asi@well.com). If you can help with the membership directory, please volunteer. Hope this helps explain what was happening with the directory. Jan C. Wright -- Wright Information Indexing Services -- -- jancw@aol.com -- http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm -- "One has two duties: to be worried and not to be worried." -- E. M. Forster ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: bending a rule Melanie Edwards wrote: > > I'm indexing a book that includes several case reports with each report being > a separate short chapter. Now then, according to indexing rules and the > clients guidelines one should not create an index entry to represent a > chapter. However, with these case reports, to follow the rules and leave them > out of the index it would seem like an omission. I would definitely put them in. In the business books I do, I often have very short chapters (10 or fewer pages), and if the chapter is about one discrete subject, I will have an entry with all 10 pages for a locator. I know this isn't de rigeur, but I am using common sense, and I have to deal with some serious space restrictions, so it seems silly to break out the subject for such a short distance. And if I leave it out, I will be leaving out the major discussion of the topic. Have fun! Joanne --- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- Do or do not. There is no try. --Yoda ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Twin Cities chapter of ASI, October meeting Software! Demos of the Latest and the Greatest Indexing software now comes in more varieties than ever, and with a dizzying array of features. If you've been following recent discussions on IndexL concerning the merits of different programs, you'll want to attend the October meeting of the Twin Cities chapter of ASI. Join us at the Information Management Lab at the College of St. Catherine in Saint Paul, MN, where we'll demonstrate several dedicated indexing programs. The lab is on the lower level of the Library, in room 105. We'll meet from 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. on Saturday, October 25. Our officers will show off the features of Macrex, Cindex (both PC and Mac versions), Hyperindex 5.01, and SkyIndex. Cost of the meeting is $5.00. Parking is available in the large O'Shaughnessy Auditorium lot, off Fairview Avenue just past Randolph. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: bending a rule Funny thing. I just "created" a Cindex file for a contributed-chapter book, primarily case histories. I strongly believe that a book with "Contents" does not have references to Chapter 1, Chapter 2, and so on. Space is often limited and I prefer entries that are actually helpful to readers. That said.I do believe it appropriate to index a chapter's entire page range when it covers a specific subject. I, too, will be interested in responses. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:49:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Errors and Omissions liability insurance Hi all, We were recently discussing E&O insurance (or =93Errors and Omissions lia= bility coverage=94), which caused me to dig out what I learned about E&O insuran= ce in 1995. When I went independent and went to the Society for Technical Communication for health insurance, I talked to Bill Hosier at the STC office. He told me that Mutual of Omaha will not insure STC as a group (n= o one will) for liability because there=92s no historical data for them to = refer to in basing their rates. But he said that as an independent technical writer/indexer, I would not be held responsible in a court of law for the technical accuracy of the documentation that I write, but that the client would be responsible. He told me that no technical writer has ever been s= ued for =93errors and omissions.=94 The company who hires the independent wri= ter would be sued if vital information were omitted or erroneous, since they = are ultimately responsible for the documentation that they release. It seems that someone said that they have E&O liability insurance, is tha= t right? If so, I'd be very interested in hearing details about how much it costs and who they have the insurance through. If coverage is available, maybe I should have it. Comments? Suggestions? TIA, Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.= html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY ASI chapter Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:09:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottesen Subject: Posting -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hi all: I have yet to see any of my IndexL postings. I know they are received by others since I do get replies. Is this the way it works for everyone? Is not receiving your own posting a "feature" that can be turned on and off? On the Techwriter and Winhelp lists I always see my postings. It's nice to know that a "mess"age has made it through the electronic jungle. Just Curious, Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: bending a rule (indexing whole chapters) in the table of contents, list of illustrations, etc. The object apparently is to save index lines and avoid padding. The assumption is that the reader turns *first* to the T of C, and only in the last resort to the index. (An assumption we do not want to encourage!) An even harsher "rule" is that a book about subject XYZ ("Africa" let's say) should not have an entry "XYZ" in the index. But I say, it is often necessary to have the entry "Africa". Not, of course, an entry like: Africa, 1-999 passim and also not a mere permutation of the table of contents, such as Africa 15th century 16th century etc. but yes an entry for the purpose of gathering headings that otherwise would be hard for the indexer to place and the reader to find, e.g.: Africa early explorations general discussion maps recent developments .... To return to the subject: DO index the theme of a chapter. The actual rubric "chapter" should probably not be used, but a page range should be used. I also endorse the idea of boldfacing the chapter pages. *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: bending a rule In-Reply-To: <199710082040.PAA00579@beavis.inetdirect.net> The assumption is >that the reader turns *first* to the T of C, and only in the last >resort to the index. (An assumption we do not want to encourage!) BTW, in the Oct. 6 issue of The New Yorker, which is all about publishing, there is an article by Simon & Schuster Editor-in-Chief Michael Korda about his work on Ronald Reagan's memoirs. It contains this passage: " ... Reagan had refused even to mention his first wife, Jane Wyman, in the book. I feared that this hiatus might cause reviewers to question his willingness to face facts, particularly if they glanced at the index first, which is often exactly what they do." Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ...................................... In the year 415, the woman scientist Hypatia, head of the legendary Alexandria library, was beaten to death by Christian monks who considered her a pagan. The leader of the monks, Cyril, was canonized a saint. (James A. Haught, in Free Inquiry, Winter 1996/1997) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:31:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Posting Susan, I never see my postings either and also get replies. Yes, there is a command that may be sent to the listserver and no doubt someone with a better memory than I will post it immediately. It may be in the information packet you received when you initially subscribed. Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottesen Subject: Book on Small Business -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Can anyone recommend a book on starting up a business. I'm heading down the typical route: working full time and looking to do part-time work on the side until I can afford to work full-time for myself. I know nothing about the ins and outs of this kind of thing, so something basic please. Thank you, Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:00:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: bending a rule I assume readers use both the Contents and Index. My ego investment is in the quality of my work and not on "beating out" the Contents :-). It is clear that is also the priority of other list posters. The quote by Korda is shocking in the misapplication of the word, hiatus. > The assumption is >>that the reader turns *first* to the T of C, and only in the last >>resort to the index. (An assumption we do not want to encourage!) > >BTW, in the Oct. 6 issue of The New Yorker, which is all about publishing, >there is an article by Simon & Schuster Editor-in-Chief Michael Korda about >his work on Ronald Reagan's memoirs. It contains this passage: > >" ... Reagan had refused even to mention his first wife, Jane Wyman, in the >book. I feared that this hiatus might cause reviewers to question his >willingness to face facts, particularly if they glanced at the index first, >which is often exactly what they do." > >Elsa Kramer >Indianapolis >...................................... >In the year 415, the woman scientist Hypatia, head >of the legendary Alexandria library, was beaten to >death by Christian monks who considered her a pagan. >The leader of the monks, Cyril, was canonized a saint. >(James A. Haught, in Free Inquiry, Winter 1996/1997) > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:10:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Michaud Subject: Re: Connecticut indexers? In-Reply-To: <199710021634.MAA24806@mx03.erols.com> Thanks for the advice. I'm convinced; I'm going to join! Christine Michaud cmichaud@erols.com At 12:28 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >Christine, >Yes, there are many benefits of joining ASI. The newsletter, KeyWords, is >excellent; you can attend the annual conference (scheduled for May 13-16 1998 >in Seattle, WA); you get a discount on ASI publications and conferences, and >you can attend ASI chapter meetings in neighboring states. You're more than >welcome to attend meetings in Western NY. It might be a drive for you, but >it's an option. We plan to have our next meeting in the spring of 98 in the >Rochester, NY area. (We just had a meeting in Ithaca, NY.) You also might >attend chapter meetings in NYC or VT or MA. > >I'm sure that others will come up with benefits that I've overlooked. > >Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html >Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 >Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 >PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY ASI chapter >Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:29:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: bending a rule At 05:00 PM 10/8/1997 -0700, Pam Rider wrote: >The quote by Korda is shocking in the misapplication of the word, hiatus. I disagree, Pam. According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary, one meaning of the word, "hiatus," is "an interruption or lapse in or as if in time or continuity." Reagan's unwillingness to mention his first wife did, indeed, cause a hiatus in the narrative and timeline of his book. Michael Korda is a most elegant writer, and the _New Yorker_ is one of the most carefully edited and fact-checked magazines on the planet. It's been my experience that the magazine is almost never wrong about issues like this, and in fact I regularly learn new words and turns of phrase from its pages. (I've been a faithful reader for about 30 years now.) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:46:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: Re: Posting Hello Someone mentioned an information packet for subscribers. How long before these packets are sent out? I subscribed about 1 1/2 to 2 weeks ago and wasn't aware of this. Steve email= ssawula@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:59:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Still no Keywords The subject line says it all. Anyone else still waiting? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:10:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Posting At 08:46 PM 10/8/1997 -0400, Steven Sawula wrote: >Someone mentioned an information packet for subscribers. How long before >these packets are sent out? I subscribed about 1 1/2 to 2 weeks ago and >wasn't aware of this. Usually the very first piece of mail you get from the listserv is a note with many of the useful commands to unsubscribe, go nomail, etc., as well as instructions on how to subscribe to the digest version and how to get a REFCARD, which is a full set of commands to address the listserv. Somebody asked about seeing their own posts on the list. Here's the "toggle" command for that (we're automatically set to NOREPRO): SET REPRO (to see your own posts) SET NOREPRO (to not get copies of your own posts) Send this command to: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Do not sign this message, and don't write anything else in the message box. You don't even need a subject line. Don't send these listserv messages to the list address...they won't work. Other common commands: SIGNOFF (remove yourself permanently) MAIL/NOMAIL (toggles whether you are receiving current messages... it's handy to go NOMAIL when you're going to be away for a few days but don't want to unsubscribe) DIGEST/NODIGEST (toggles receipt in digest mode or post by post) LISTSERV REFCARD gets you the full list of reference commands =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:34:58 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: lipstick librarian See http://www.teleport.com/~petlin/liplib/ It is a crazy sendup of librarians... You'll love it... Dwight ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:59:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: Lynn I spoke with Lynn's nurse this evening and she is doing well. She had was talking to a visitor when I called. She will be in the Surgical ICU for 24 to 48 more hours. I hope to be able to talk directly to her on Friday. If things continue to go as planned she should be talking to all of you herself by the end of next week. Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:44:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret Stevenson Subject: Re: lipstick librarian In-Reply-To: <199710090313.XAA19727@camel16.mindspring.com> Very good, very good... Meg At 12:34 PM 10/9/97 +1100, you wrote: >See > >http://www.teleport.com/~petlin/liplib/ > >It is a crazy sendup of librarians... You'll love it... > >Dwight >------- >Dwight Walker >Webmaster and Editor >Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 >Australia >+61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 >URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:26:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: Published indexes You wrote: >> Do you freelancers out there read through the published versions of >>your indexes carefully? If I see one of my books in a bookstore, I'll check it for: 1) my name - have I been credited? and where? 2) the typographical appearance of the index as it was typeset. Was the line length adequate? Are the indents clear and not muddled? Is the typesize neither too big nor too tiny? 3) has the index been edited? If the editing looks heavy, or if it was a troublesome job, I may review a few pages against the copy that I delivered. All this is with the object of learning and improving. For example, I've improved the format of the diskettes that I send, so that typesetting errors are less likely. If the printed index really looks impressive, I may say to myself "maybe here is a Wilson Award candidate!" But that's another story. *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:12:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Termurray@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lynn Dawn, That's great news! Tell her I said, Welcome to the zipper club! Terry Murray ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 05:56:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: bending a rule At 05:29 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 05:00 PM 10/8/1997 -0700, Pam Rider wrote: > >>The quote by Korda is shocking in the misapplication of the word, hiatus. > >I disagree, Pam. According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary, >one meaning of the word, "hiatus," is "an interruption or lapse in or as if >in time or continuity." Reagan's unwillingness to mention his first wife >did, indeed, cause a hiatus in the narrative and timeline of his book. The definition in the CD-ROM Merriam-Webster's 10th, which I checked before posting, has a more specific meaning. It is Korda's well-earned reputation that had me shocked. The "new" _New Yorker_ has abandoned its previous standards. I began as a faithful reader in 1960. It is, to me, quite a stretch for "hiatus" to be used as synonymous with "omission." Korda was just throwing in a "fancy-sounding, show-off" word when a simple, correct word would have been more elegant. Note that each MW definition is between more than one object. hiatus \h-a-tes\ noun [L, fr. hiare to yawn more at yawn] (1563) 1 a : a break in or as if in a material object : gap b : a gap or passage in an anatomical part or organ 2 a : an interruption in time or continuity : break b : the occurrence of two vowel sounds without pause or intervening consonantal sound (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated >Michael Korda is a most elegant writer, and the _New Yorker_ is one of the >most carefully edited and fact-checked magazines on the planet. It's been my >experience that the magazine is almost never wrong about issues like this, >and in fact I regularly learn new words and turns of phrase from its pages. >(I've been a faithful reader for about 30 years now.) > > =Sonsie= > Pam ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:55:41 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Member directory/Indexer Locator Jan's thoughtful comments regarding the preparation of the directory were very helpful. I don't think there's any more important directory in my file cabinet than this. In spite of these "inter-office" issues (database development, volunteer help), I still hold my professional organization to a high proofreading standard and I hope it's clear that we have to do a better job in the future......and if necessary, we have to *pay* for the proofreading involved! The Indexer Locator is another matter - we paid significant dollars to be included in this document and we expect it to present our members to the publishing world. Rushing the preparation of galleys to coincide with the national conference may have contributed to the number of errors therein; at that conference I discovered the mistake in my listing and was told it could not be fixed. I feel that using Index-L to describe these errors, compare notes about our reactions to these documents and to make contributions to their more efficient preparation in the future is *not* an exercise in whining and bitching, words which are a little inflammatory to the the radical feminist element in my psyche since they are usually applied to women. Yes, Jan, I'd love to volunteer to help out with the next one, and to take my share of the heat if there are any errors in it! Barbara Stroup ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:18:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AebliC@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AOL Book Indexer's chat Would you please send me a log of Monday night's chat? Thanks! Carol Aebli aeblic@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:18:11 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Sending commands to the listserver While it's great that Sonsie included many commands to send to the listserver, please be aware that you **need to specifiy the list that you are subscribed to**, in our case Index-L. The listserver usually processes a number of lists, not just ours. Thus the commands become > SET INDEX-L REPRO (to see your own posts) etc. sent to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu and not the list itself. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:07:39 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jennifer O'Neill Subject: Translating indexes Hi, I am curerntly checking a manual that has been translated from English to Italian and I notice that many of the index entries are very long. Some look almost like sentences. I haven't yet got feedback from the sales office about the translation and I don't know Italian. I'm wondering if there are guidelines I should give to translators when translating index entries. Any ideas? Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:02:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Book on Small Business My favorite "getting started" book is : Small-Time Operator by Bernard Kamoroff. Available in paperback, in its umpteenth printing. It is easy to follow, practical, and doesn't recommend anything expensive! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:41:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Lynn's Surgery In-Reply-To: <199710090431.XAA06445@mixcom.mixcom.com> I appreciate hearing the updates about Lynn and am relieved that she's doing well. But I'm frankly stunned that the hospital would be giving out this information. Or is it that Lynn and/or her husband gave them permission to give you this info, Dawn, which would then be posted in this public forum? I don't mean to be a drip--just concerned about privacy issues. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:29:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Sending commands to the listserver At 09:18 AM 10/9/1997 -0700, S. Greenhouse wrote: >While it's great that Sonsie included many commands to send to the >listserver, please be aware that you **need to specifiy the list that >you are subscribed to**, in our case Index-L. The listserver usually >processes a number of lists, not just ours. Thanks for pointing this out, Shelly! I can't believe I forgot to write that myself. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:57:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Translating indexes In-Reply-To: <199710091409.HAA26429@mx2.u.washington.edu> Jennefer: ideally, index entries should not be translated, a new index should be prepared for the translated document. However, most software companies (in particular) translate the indexes. This is a terrible mistake which gives rise to the strangest indexes. That may be the problem you are encountering. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:37:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: marketing I've sent out a number of resumes and sample indexes (almost always to publishers with whom I've talked on the phone.) As I expected, I haven't heard back from most of them. This doesn't worry me; I was expecting it, and I have heard from a few (hooray!) However, a lot of the resumes I sent out had no indexing experience on them, because I am a beginner. Now that I'm beginning to get some professional experience, I'm wondering how much time I should allow before I re-contact those publishers, offering to send an updated resume. Six months? A year? A certain number of indexes under my belt? Any and all ideas/experiences/advice will be welcome! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:04:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: marketing Kara, I wouldn't contact these publishers and offer to send an updated resume. I would simply go ahead and send it, with an appropriate cover letter. "He who hesitates is lost" ........."take the bull by the horns" ....... etc Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:20:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Terry Rustin Subject: Re: Member directory/Indexer Locator In-Reply-To: <199710091302.IAA28288@formby.tenet.edu> One quick question. My membership directory is dated 1995. Is there a newer one available? Laura Rustin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:47:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Card catalog in junior high library OK, ya'll, this is sort of off topic, but it drives me crazy! I volunteer at the junior high library, and today I was asked to file some cards (subject, author, and title). The subject cards were an absolute mess, as I think they are in most small libraries. The cards will have the exact same subject, but it will be worded differently. For example: "Indians--North America", "Indians--North American", "Indians of North America". Also, "U.S.", "United States". What do you do with this? I changed the Indians around so they at least made sense to me--they didn't make any sense before. I just left the U.S. alone. This is all probably irrelevant since the school is at least partially switching to a computerized system, but it still makes me crazy! I didn't mention anything about it to the librarian because she is an aide who knows where every book is on the shelf anyway, and how many junior high kids are actually going to use a card catalog? Just needed to vent, and would appreciate any suggestions, or similar experiences we can all laugh about! Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:48:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: marketing At 09:37 AM 10/8/1997 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote: >I'm wondering how >much time I should allow before I re-contact those publishers, offering to >send an updated resume. Six months? A year? A certain number of indexes >under my belt? Any and all ideas/experiences/advice will be welcome! Kara, send out new resumes to anybody you haven't heard from in "awhile"--and you can decide how long that can be! :-) If you've now got six indexes on your list and had none three months ago, by all means send a new resume with a cover letter highlighting your recent experience. There's no specific time limit, or number-of-indexes rule. Heck, I've sent out resumes and cover letters to new and old contacts for something as small as getting a new email address or fax number. Every sight of your name and reminder about your experience helps an editor remember AND HIRE you later on. As long as you don't pelt them mercilessly with annoying phone calls and a blizzard of paper, you're doing them a favor (and yourself, as well). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:42:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: format for multiple authors I've just been asked by an author to make some corrections to the index I submitted for her book. She is questioning the inclusion of several of the secondary and tertiary names in groups of authors whose work is discussed. (She also wants a number of authors included whose names were merely citationary, but if she feels strongly about them, I'm not going to argue with her.) However, I feel that when work by more than person (for example, the content of a book by two or three authors) is discussed, each of those people should be indexed separately? Example: work by John Doe and Mary Smith, assuming it is an indexable reference, would be indexed under both "Doe, John" and "Smith, Mary". Am I right about this? If I index them the way the author requests me to (Doe, J. and M. Smith), there will be no entry point for Smith, which doesn't seem right. While we're on the subject of author requests, how far does one go to accommodate them? Obviously, if complying doesn't reduce the index's usability and readability, the author's wishes should be taken into account. But what if you are convinced the author is wrong about a particular request? Do you tactfully explain your position, then do as s/he asks? In this particular situation, it is complicated by the fact that I'm dealing with the author through the editor. Should I ask for the author's email or telephone number to talk with her directly, or keep working through the editor? I'm on a tightish deadline, but I don't want to be impolitic. TIA, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: bending a rule In-Reply-To: <199710090037.TAA23398@beavis.inetdirect.net> >At 05:00 PM 10/8/1997 -0700, Pam Rider wrote: > >>The quote by Korda is shocking in the misapplication of the word, hiatus. > >I disagree, Pam. According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary, >one meaning of the word, "hiatus," is "an interruption or lapse in or as if >in time or continuity." Reagan's unwillingness to mention his first wife >did, indeed, cause a hiatus in the narrative and timeline of his book. > >Michael Korda is a most elegant writer, and the _New Yorker_ is one of the >most carefully edited and fact-checked magazines on the planet. It's been my >experience that the magazine is almost never wrong about issues like this, >and in fact I regularly learn new words and turns of phrase from its pages. >(I've been a faithful reader for about 30 years now.) > > =Sonsie= Me, too. In the last 15 years, I think I've written to them twice about errors, and both were obscure errors of fact. I received handwritten acknowledgments both times. When they ran a letter to the editor from me, they called me prior to publication and went over their editing with me on the phone! They are exceptionally careful. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ...................................... In the year 415, the woman scientist Hypatia, head of the legendary Alexandria library, was beaten to death by Christian monks who considered her a pagan. The leader of the monks, Cyril, was canonized a saint. (James A. Haught, in Free Inquiry, Winter 1996/1997) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:17:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Card catalog in junior high library Chris If you would like to find the best subject heading you should use the Library of Congress Subject Heading for non medical libraries as this is the standard in most libraries. As for format, they should follow AACR2 (Anglo American Cataloging Rules) Medical libraries follow MeSH from the National Library of Medicine Roberta Horowitz At 01:47 PM 10/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >OK, ya'll, this is sort of off topic, but it drives me crazy! I volunteer at >the junior high library, and today I was asked to file some cards (subject, >author, and title). The subject cards were an absolute mess, as I think they >are in most small libraries. The cards will have the exact same subject, but >it will be worded differently. For example: "Indians--North America", >"Indians--North American", "Indians of North America". Also, "U.S.", "United >States". What do you do with this? I changed the Indians around so they at >least made sense to me--they didn't make any sense before. I just left the >U.S. alone. This is all probably irrelevant since the school is at least >partially switching to a computerized system, but it still makes me crazy! I >didn't mention anything about it to the librarian because she is an aide who >knows where every book is on the shelf anyway, and how many junior high kids >are actually going to use a card catalog? Just needed to vent, and would >appreciate any suggestions, or similar experiences we can all laugh about! > >Chris > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:49:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cheryl D. McQueen" Subject: Re: Still no Keywords IN>The subject line says it all. IN>Anyone else still waiting? IN>Dick 10/09/97 Yes. I am new to ASI (joined Feb. 1997) and didn't remember the frequency of Keywords. I realized I have only received the January/February 1997 issue to date. I sent a letter to ASI to inform them of this error. Cheryl McQueen McIndexer@pwshift.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:59:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Card catalog in junior high library Sears subj hdgs are better than LC subj hdgs for school collections classified with Dewey Decimal numbers because they're meant for each other. If the school library is receiving catalog cards with books ordered from different jobbers, maybe the jobbers aren't all using the same system to account for the hdg variations encountered. If the school is assigning the hdgs, suggest using one system to whomever is responsible. Trying to unify the hdgs at the point of filing the cards will miss making wherever they originate consistent. Controlling vocabulary across systems is not easy. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:04:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SBatesEye Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Washington DC ASI chapter Is anyone out there a member of the WAshington DC ASI chapter? I've been trying to contact someone to find out when the next meeting will be and can't seem to get a response. I'd appreciate any contact info anyone might have. Thank you!!!! Stefanie Eye ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:18:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Miller, David G (Dave)" Subject: Re: Card catalog in junior high library You signed... >Diane in Kazoo My wife and I both grew up in Augusta, attended Galesburg and Hickory Corners high schools, respectively, and invested a few semesters at Western Michigan University before migrating West in '61. How are things in the Celery City? Are the hardwoods colorful this year? Dave Miller Longmont, Colorado > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:36:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Miller, David G (Dave)" Subject: Re: Card catalog in junior high library Oops! Sorry about replying to the Group instead of to Diane only. I'm going back to my room, now. :-( Dave Miller > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:32:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Merz Bott Subject: Re[2]: marketing As one in charge of indexing at a publisher, I can say that I appreciate receiving a sample index included with a letter of inquiry--it saves me the time it takes to dash off a letter asking for the sample. Also, it would be helpful to include a resume with three references. Sandra Merz Bott Human Kinetics ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:52:50 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Merz Bott Subject: Re: marketing Kara, I would wait a minimum of one month before calling a publisher. From my own experience, I can tell you that it takes me about a month, if not longer, to work around to all the letters my company receives. I would give a friendly call (not on a Monday or Friday for sure, since many deadlines always seem to fall on those two days) and ask what's up--sometimes the letter is lost in the shuffle (is anyone else's desk in the same condition of upheaval as mine?). If you haven't heard from a publisher by three months, I would definitely contact the publisher. They should have responded by that time even if they can't use your services in the near future. Good business practices always dictate responding to all correspondence. Before you send out letters to a publisher, though, I would research the publisher to see what areas that publisher focuses on. Write your letter addressing how your experience indexing books along that topic have prepared you to work on that house's products. Some of the inquiries I have received panned out because the individual had a keen interest in what we're up to. And, include a resume, sample index, and two or more references (I do call them after making my initial contact with the indexer offering services). I'm currently updating our database of indexers and have started to contact our indexers to update our information. So, it never hurts to send a letter informing publishers of changes (for the better) in your workload and experience. This is all from my viewpoint and I would be interested in hearing how this fits with your experience. Sandra Merz Bott Human Kinetics ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Subject: marketing Author: Indexer's Discussion Group Date: 10/8/97 9:37 AM I've sent out a number of resumes and sample indexes (almost always to publishers with whom I've talked on the phone.) As I expected, I haven't heard back from most of them. This doesn't worry me; I was expecting it, and I have heard from a few (hooray!) However, a lot of the resumes I sent out had no indexing experience on them, because I am a beginner. Now that I'm beginning to get some professional experience, I'm wondering how much time I should allow before I re-contact those publishers, offering to send an updated resume. Six months? A year? A certain number of indexes under my belt? Any and all ideas/experiences/advice will be welcome! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:45:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rose Iris Subject: Re: marketing Sandra wrote: "Before you send out letters to a publisher, though, I would research the publisher to see what areas that publisher focuses on. Write your letter addressing how your experience indexing books along that topic have prepared you to work on that house's products. Some of the inquiries I have received panned out because the individual had a keen interest in what we're up to. And, include a resume, sample index, and two or more references (I do call them after making my initial contact with the indexer offering services)." Sandra, What kind of references would you want to see from a beginning indexer, especially one who hasn't indexed professionally yet? The only relevant reference I can think of, in my case, would be my instructor in the USDA course. Rose Iris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:07:44 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: official email for AusSI Ed vs private email to Dwight Walker Hi To keep the email an orderly chaos: Please post all mail re Australian Society of Indexers Newsletter to: aussi@zeta.org.au Please post all private email to me to: dwight@zip.com.au I am not on the list, so can't judge responses to the post about Lipstick Librarian. I felt it relevant to the group. If anything it had a very funny yet thorough bibliography of all the mundane tasks we as indexers or librarians have to do. E.g. cataloguing, classifying... Take time out to have a good laugh. It is the world's best medicine. If you have any equally pithy pieces, please email at aussi@zeta.org.au. As a 36 year old, I take life a little less seriously for which I do not apologise. Have a nice day! Cheers Dwight ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker, Sydney, Australia tel +61-2-91304206 (h) 0412-405727 (mobile) fax +61-2-97772058 WWWalker Web Development: http://www.wwwalker.com.au, Team VC http://www.vcaustralia.com Australian Society of Indexers: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi Sydney Linux Users Group: http://www.slug.org.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:11:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: format for multiple authors I agree with Kara that all authors for a given work indexed should be in the index for each citation. For a vast majority of the books I index, my fee is charged against royalties. That is, I am paid, but my bill is subtracted from the author royalty check. Therefore, the author's wishes prevail. But, in the situation described, I have little doubt that the publisher and I would band together to change the author's position. I suggest you check with the editor. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:26:25 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Merz Bott Subject: Re[2]: marketing If the only reference you have is your instructor, don't hesitate in stating that in your letter (but with confidence that you will perform up to the publisher's expectations). I know this may seem to be an inadequate reference to you, but your class work examples are perfectly fine samples of the quality of your work and your ability to ferret out important entries. By all means, give this reference in your letter. Don't be shy just because you're a novice in that you have no "real" indexes under your belt. One course of action for you to take if you aren't getting any responses from publishers is to offer your services to a more experienced indexer to apprentice yourself. That's how we found two of our many excellent freelance indexers--by referrals through our current indexers when their workload made it impossible to accept a project. (How does this sit well with you more experienced indexers?) I know this is one-sided, that is, from the publisher's viewpoint and from only one publishing house. But, I look kindly on those who have the wherewithal to venture out on their own. I know you have to get the job down to further your business and build your reputation. I hope this helps. So, send it in and contact them after a reasonable interval. We need you as much as you need the work! --Sandra Merz Bott ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Subject: Re: marketing Author: Indexer's Discussion Group Date: 10/9/97 4:45 PM Sandra wrote: "Before you send out letters to a publisher, though, I would research the publisher to see what areas that publisher focuses on. Write your letter addressing how your experience indexing books along that topic have prepared you to work on that house's products. Some of the inquiries I have received panned out because the individual had a keen interest in what we're up to. And, include a resume, sample index, and two or more references (I do call them after making my initial contact with the indexer offering services)." Sandra, What kind of references would you want to see from a beginning indexer, especially one who hasn't indexed professionally yet? The only relevant reference I can think of, in my case, would be my instructor in the USDA course. Rose Iris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:59:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexlady Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Card catalog in junior high library Hi Chris! When I worked as a "Work Study" through college, my assignment was in the library. My first duty was the card catalog. (The second was shelving the books like the catalog!) These were my exclusive jobs! At that time, 10 years ago, the library used the Dewey Decimal (?) system, which is different from the LoC. There may be other official "filing" systems, as well. Find out which system is used. I really enjoyed the solitary work! And nobody watched over my shoulder...they didn't WANT the job! Good luck! Dawn indexlady@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:22:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lynn's Surgery In a message dated 97-10-09 11:12:42 EDT, you write: << Or is it that Lynn and/or her husband gave them permission to give you this info, Dawn, which would then be posted in this public forum? >> I can confirm that Dawn has permission to post messages about Lynn's condition. I was visiting her last night when Lynn reminded the nurse that Dawn was on her list of people authorized to receive information. Lynn feels very close to the people on this listserve and I know that many of you consider her a good friend. Bob would post the messages himself, but both of their monitors are broken. Until they are repaired, you will not be able to E-mail them directly. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:42:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: AOL Book Indexer's chat OnlineHost: OnlineHost: *** You are in "Book Indexers Chat". *** OnlineHost: Bookindexr: Hi Dick!! REvans4: Hi REvans4: Looks like there will be at least two of us Bookindexr: I had gotten a little discouraged the last two weeks but today I had several new people Bookindexr: inquire about it. REvans4: I was on a deadline last week, but signed on anyway. REvans4: When I didn't see anyone here, I didn't hang around long. Bookindexr: :) I guess it was good it didn't work out then. Bookindexr: I have stopped working at the book store during the week. It was taking away from my Bookindexr: indexing REvans4: On Wednesday I had a series of six books postponed until after REvans4: the first of the year. REvans4: I was getting panicky, then by Friday I had six others booked. REvans4: Things always seem to work out. Bookindexr: wow!! bet you were :) Bookindexr: You're very inspiring. Bookindexr: I would have love to have come to the Carolina meeting. REvans4: It was more like perspiring for a couple of days. Bookindexr: How did it go. Bookindexr: lol REvans4: Very successful. Fifteen in attendance. Bookindexr: That is great. I worked that weekend. I wished I had paid more attention REvans4: Got our bylaws and all the formalities out of the way Bookindexr: I would have taken off and came. REvans4: TN is a ways from Raleigh Bookindexr: I went back and forth to Chesapeake six times this summer...lol Bookindexr: my brother lives there. He is in the Navy. Got used to traveling. Bookindexr: Raleigh would have been a breeze. REvans4: Our next meeting is in March. I can't remember where, but it's Bookindexr: Besides I want to see North Carolina. We went there on our honeymoon. REvans4: a little west of Raleigh Bookindexr: lol a little closer anyway :) OnlineHost: Nrslyn has entered the room. Bookindexr: that won't be bad it should be too cold. Bookindexr: Hi Nrslyn!!! Nrslyn: Hi, people Bookindexr: oops shouldn't REvans4: I like NC. I've lived in Kentucky, Florida, NY, PA, Mass, Alaba ma Bookindexr: We are talking about the next meeting for the North Carolina ASI REvans4: Hi Nrslyn Bookindexr: It was in Raleigh the last time and REvans was a speaker. Nrslyn: Hi, Dick. Good to meet you last Sat. REvans4: Pardon me if I don't connect the screen name . . . OnlineHost: Aplfgcnys has entered the room. Bookindexr: which one? REvans4: Nrslyn Bookindexr: Hi Apl glad you made it!!!! Nrslyn: Lynne Wellin...Husband is a programmer REvans4: Oh, sure. REvans4: I was just telling Sue that it was a good turnout. Bookindexr: I have all the names mixed up. I had them all written down next to the screen names and ran Bookindexr: off and left it at the shop Aplfgcnys: I had trouble logging on for the first time in months Nrslyn: Enjoyed your presentation. Learned a lot Bookindexr: You went to the meeting Lynne? Nrslyn: Yes. Enjoyed it. Didn't know what to expect at first Bookindexr: I would have loved to have gone. Computer indexing in my goal bu t I am going to have to REvans4: No one did Bookindexr: start at the bottom of the totum (sp) poll. Bookindexr: probably history text books. I love history. Aplfgcnys: Just how do you define computer indexing REvans4: Any indexing of computer topics Bookindexr: anything to do with computer ...lol book indexing and then onlin e indexing Nrslyn: Where are you from, Aplfgcnys? OnlineHost: Mgendx has entered the room. Bookindexr: Hi Mgendx!!!! glad you made it. :) Aplfgcnys: New York area Aplfgcnys: And you? Mgendx: Golly, that was easy! Thanks Bookindexr: I am from Memphis, Tennessee and want to be a Virginian or North Carolinian Nrslyn: NC near Raleigh Mgendx: NJ here Bookindexr: lol ...the link Mgendx? REvans4: Originally Binghamton, NY. Now Raleigh, NC Aplfgcnys: What is the source of indexing work out of the metropolitan area ? Mgendx: Yes. I seem to get kicked out too often when I'm trying to connect to something important. REvans4: No one source. I work for publishers and corporations REvans4: from local Raleigh area to west coast. Aplfgcnys: Good for you! What sort of corporations need indexes? REvans4: SAS Institute in Cary, for one. Also lots of small software Mgendx: Does anyone here ever bother to check into the AOL index board anymore? REvans4: houses here in the area. Bookindexr: Trying to herd them in...lol REvans4: Not much activity on AOL index board Aplfgcnys: What is the AOL index board? REvans4: INDEX-L is the thing now Mgendx: I know. I miss it (AOL, that is). REvans4: AOL index used to be an active message board for indexers. Bookindexr: I have never heard of it? Mgendx: I like index-L, but it gets a bit cumbersome sometimes. Bookindexr: I can barely keep up sometimes. Nrslyn: How do you get to Index-L? Mgendx: Book - the AOL board? Its in the writers club. Cindex, Macrex and ASI boards are there too. REvans4: you have to subscribe. If you are interested, drop me a note la ter Aplfgcnys: What is INDEX-L? I'm new at this. REvans4: and I will send instructions. Bookindexr: oh yes I have the writer's club on my favorite places. REvans4: INDEX-L is a listserv. Are you familiar with listservs? Aplfgcnys: No Nrslyn: No Bookindexr: but I didn't see anything about an Index board but that is where I found out about indexing REvans4: A listserv is like a round-robin e-mail conversation. Bookindexr: to begin with. It is what original motivated me. REvans4: Once you are "subscribed" you can send an e-mail message and Mgendx: Nrslyn - I just sent someone an email on that, I'll cc you. REvans4: it will be received and read by everyone else on the list. Aplfgcnys: My primary purpose for the internet is e-mail from my sons Nrslyn: Thanks REvans4: Likewise, you see anything that any other subscriber sends. Bookindexr: It is really amazing how much you learn from it. REvans4: Excellent resource for asking index questions Mgendx: Book - I forget the actual trail, but I'll retrace it and email the steps. Bookindexr: ok thanks Mgendx Bookindexr: Dick I ordered that book you suggested, can't remember the name now though Mgendx: It's a lot less active than Index-L, though. Bookindexr: it was $26.95 but I got 25% off because I work for the book store. REvans4: Style Guide for the Compuer Industry? Bookindexr: yep that's it. Mgendx: Dick - How long have you been indexing? REvans4: Since '92 Bookindexr: has anyone tried the new Sky index program yet? Aplfgcnys: What was the suggested book"? REvans4: I was a beta tester on SkyIndex Professional. Very impressive Bookindexr: Style Guide for the Computer Industry REvans4: It will be a contender with Cindex and Macrex Aplfgcnys: How does an REvans4: The full book title is "Read Me First: a Style Guide for the Computer Industry" Bookindexr: I have the demo for the regular one but can't decide which to order Aplfgcnys: "index program" work? REvans4: Chapter 9 does an excellent job on indexing technical stuff Bookindexr: the $129.00 or the $300.00 + one Nrslyn: Which program is best for a beginner? Mgendx: Which program is best for a creature of habit like me? REvans4: It depends on how long you want to be a beginner. If you are serios, REvans4: go for the best tools you can afford. Mgendx: I'm still using wordperfect with custom macros. REvans4: If you are just getting your feet wet and want cheap practice, g o with one of the Nrslyn: Which are the best? Bookindexr: Since I havn't got my first job yet I am not sure how long it will take I am thinking about REvans4: cheaper packages. Bookindexr: just getting the less expensive one. REvans4: Of course, you can get a Cindex demo for $50. Bookindexr: I know but isn't it limited in some way Dick? REvans4: WordPerfect is not an indexing tool. OK for practice, but not f or production work. REvans4: Limited in the number of entries you can create, but otherwise f ully functional. Mgendx: So I have been told. Most of my work is a little offbeat, not BOB Aplfgcnys: I guess I'm the old-timer here. I started with three-by-five cards, and computerized my ope Mgendx: ANd I have made WP jump through hoops. Mgendx: Still< I should get a better tool for indexing. Aplfgcnys: peration 13 years ago. I still use an editor, which I think is much better than any word -p Aplfgcnys: processer. Mgendx: Apl - I remember 3x5s REvans4: Once you've become proficient with a dedicated indexing program you will never REvans4: willinigly use anything else Nrslyn: Are you going to demonstrate Cindex at the next meeting, Dick? REvans4: Unless someone else wants to do something. Bookindexr: I used the Skyindex demo to index McAfee's Virus Manual. I thought it would be a good start the Bookindexr: original was a disaster all of the pages Bookindexr: were off one or two page numbers. So I reindexed it hoping to sell it to McAfee along with the Bookindexr: idea that using an freelancer was better than what it looked like they had used, embedded software Bookindexr: But I couldn't print it so I just copied it to Word and Bookindexr: manually formatted it worked fine. Bookindexr: but everything was there to index it with. Bookindexr: I was told that cindex's demo would let you do but 50 entry or something like that REvans4: More like 275 REvans4: I read that figure on their message board a couple of days ago Mgendx: From what I understand, the demo gives a pretty good picture of what you'll be getting with Bookindexr: Really Dick can you do all the alphabets Mgendx: the whole package. REvans4: All the alphabets? Bookindexr: Do you know if you can print from it? Mgendx: Can Cindex work as a database for journal indexes? REvans4: You can print. Bookindexr: A-Z REvans4: It used to be that spell check was not available Bookindexr: There was one demo that wouldn't let you do past the M's REvans4: Not sure now REvans4: Book: I don't understand REvans4: You can do whatever you want for 275 records Aplfgcnys: Just what does an index program do? Read the book for you? Bookindexr: I believe the program is call Indexx and it won't let you index anything staring with M or REvans4: No, it does all the mechanical things you would do with cards: sorting, formatting, etc Bookindexr: any other alphabet after that. Just A-M Bookindexr: Lol Apl REvans4: Oh. No, CIndex has no such limit Aplfgcnys: My simple editor does all that REvans4: It may seem like it does. You'd have to see Cindex in actino. No comparison Bookindexr: Great!!! I think I will get it then. It would be better than the SkyIndex's Bookindexr: older version REvans4: Suppose you have finished a thousand page book and the publisher calls REvans4: to tell you they have inserted three pages at the end of chapter one. Mgendx: First, I would scream. REvans4: Cindex can adjust all subsequent page numbers by three. Aplfgcnys: 275 records would not start most indices REvans4: That's why it's only a demo. It's not intended to let you do production work Mgendx: Hmmmm. Cindex is sounding better and better. But I don't do that Mgendx: many end of book indexes. Mgendx: What else can Cindex do? REvans4: What kind do you do? Mgendx: My favorite kind of job in a pile of journals to be abstracted and/or indexed Aplfgcnys: Where else is an index? Mgendx: Organized into a nice database to be used for either print or online retrieval. REvans4: Check their Wb page: http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html Mgendx: Writing that down now. REvans4: Cindex can do those just as well REvans4: Cindex can generate delimied databas files REvans4: that's "delimited" Bookindexr: I would really love to do online indexing. Mgendx: Dick - This is getting more an more convincing. I have a feeling that if Mgendx: I buy Cindex, I'll kick myself for not getting it sooner. Bookindexr: I am logging the chat for anyone that is interested...let me kno w Mgendx: Typos and all? REvans4: The current version is DOS. A Windows version is due any day no w Bookindexr: Yep lol...want me to correct them? Bookindexr: I can run it through word :) Mgendx: DOS doesn't bother me at all. Simplicity in itself. No silly icons. OnlineHost: SHughes512 has entered the room. REvans4: I like the DOS versoin. Bookindexr: Hi!!!!! Sharon Aplfgcnys: Being a DOS program is a selling point with me - I hate Windows SHughes512: HI, my curiosity got the better of my plans REvans4: In a pinch, I have fallen back on an old 286/12 machine to get a job done Mgendx: Apl - Applause! Applause! Bookindexr: lol glad you made it :) Mgendx: I'm keeping my old 286 until it dies a natural death. SHughes512: We do large indexes so the old 386 was too slow. REvans4: I had two Pentium desktops and an IBM ThinkPad all down at the s ame time. Bookindexr: I have one of those. I even have aol on it. SHughes512: I'd sort all night REvans4: The 286 was alife saver Mgendx: 286 may be slow but it's my trusty rusty Aplfgcnys: I gave my 286 to FGCNYS four years ago - I have now given them m y 486 SHughes512: a 286 works fine for entry. Bookindexr: I have the skyindex program on it at work to practice while I work Mgendx: I did a huge job on my 286 several years ago. It had to grind away OnlineHost: TeriSongs has entered the room. Mgendx: all night for each phase. Bookindexr: Teri you got my E-mail!!!! Bookindexr: couldn't IM you :( TeriSongs: Thanks Book! SHughes512: right.. I do a couple of indexes with over 30.000 entries every year TeriSongs: I was in the "Real World" live chat REvans4: That's huge! My biggest is about 4,000 Bookindexr: wow Sharon how long does that usually take? TeriSongs: <---finished a 60-page index today! SHughes512: If it crashed in the middle of an overnight sort that would be hell Bookindexr: lol Teri TeriSongs: Feel sorry for the publisher REvans4: How big was the book for a 60-page index? Mgendx: I know. I was lucky and it made it through the project. TeriSongs: The book was only 169 pages SHughes512: We work on them for a while. I did a large one for a database company this year TeriSongs: That was 60 manuscript pages SHughes512: where I could copy most of the keywords into excel and that took 2 months REvans4: Teri: Why such a big index in proportion tot he book? REvans4: My publishers expect about 5% for the index Aplfgcnys: Who does an overnight sort - gsort takes less than a minute for 20,000 entries on my pentium TeriSongs: RE--It was a very dense book REvans4: Your book would have been about 8 pages TeriSongs: I cut the index and cut it and cut it SHughes512: The pentium replaced the 386 and the overnight sorts TeriSongs: and got it down to 40 mss pages REvans4: Teri: What topic? TeriSongs: Immigration and Education TeriSongs: What a pain! TeriSongs: Every page had about 50 entries on it TeriSongs: Thought I was going to go insane Aplfgcnys: Aren't you given specs for the number of lines Mgendx: SH - When we got the new computer I had to change my whole working style. Bookindexr: Wow every line must have been underlined. TeriSongs: Almost! TeriSongs: My hand is killing me Mgendx: No longer co I have to say "well, I do this while the computer does that..." SHughes512: Mg, I can imagine. I find I can use any old machine to enter data but the manipulation SHughes512: needs a fast one Bookindexr: I know what you mean. With my 286 I can wait on a customer while it changes from one screen Aplfgcnys: The most difficult task in indexing is cutting to fit the specs. TeriSongs: lol Bookindexr: to the other with this one it is a flash. Mgendx: Agree - Data entry can be done on just about anything. TeriSongs: Apl, only one of the editors I work with gives me specs for leng th TeriSongs: The others don't seem to care TeriSongs: And they all work for the same company TeriSongs: Go figure! SHughes512: I want to quit my day job.. Is everyone here full time indexing? Bookindexr: Am I the only beginner in here you all sound so knowledgeable REvans4: <---- Full time Mgendx: Part time freelance. Full time mom. Aplfgcnys: Teri - you're so lucky! Only one I work for - Columbia U. Press - doesn't give me specs Nrslyn: I'm a beginner TeriSongs: SH, I make a full-time living from part-time indexing Bookindexr: knowledgable? SHughes512: Teri,, that's wonderful. TeriSongs: But I'm also an editor and writer Bookindexr: Lol Good I am not alone TeriSongs: and songwriter Mgendx: Teri - How? Aplfgcnys: I don't live on my indexing income, but I'm almost full-time for many years now SHughes512: Ahhh.. I think I could dig up some analysis chores to fill in th e cracks.. but Mgendx: disregard my last ?? SHughes512: the family likes to eat TeriSongs: They pay me $2 a page, and I usually take 2 days to index each book TeriSongs: The faster I work, the more I get paid SHughes512: Teri,, how many books do you get per year? SHughes512: I do a lot of technical journals because the work is regular enough to plan my time TeriSongs: Usually one or two a week, but I had a month off TeriSongs: in the summer Aplfgcnys: I figure my rates at $2.50 /page +- depending on the difficulty of work Bookindexr: Teri is that the normal rate for the type of indexing you are doing? TeriSongs: Book, I have no idea TeriSongs: LOL Bookindexr: :) REvans4: You know, there is an ASI salary survey TeriSongs: You're the only other indexers I've ever talked to Aplfgcnys: One of my editors sent me a copy of a letter to an author in whi ch she stated that I was SHughes512: I know I analyzed it (for free) REvans4: Don't know if it's on their Web page yet Aplfgcnys: their most "reasonable" indexer. Bookindexr: I thought if you were experience you could charge something like $3.50 a page TeriSongs: Apl, that is not necessarily a good thing SHughes512: It all depends on the difficulty of the work. and the density of material REvans4: Compute books get $3/page and up. I assume other techie stuff w ould too TeriSongs: The other company I work for pays me a flat fee Mgendx: Apl - shat subjects do you do? Bookindexr: I guess that is where I am getting that. That is what I have bee n studying mostly SHughes512: There were fewer typos in my report than the rest of keywords 8- ) Aplfgcnys: Anything that comes my way TeriSongs: <---fastest indexer in the West : ) Mgendx: Excuse me - make that "What subjects do you do?" OnlineHost: Nrslyn has left the room. SHughes512: Someone in the survey gets 7.00/page Bookindexr: I never did get my Keywords :( SHughes512: wonder what they index Bookindexr: has everyone else? Mgendx: Book - Just got mine 2 days ago. REvans4: That's usually for a software house. TeriSongs: SH, If I got $7 a page, I'd be making more than the author REvans4: Publishers don't pay those rates. TeriSongs: Well, almost SHughes512: It looked like a legal indexer from the other answers TeriSongs: I'd be making more than the editor Aplfgcnys: Are we speaking of a page of text or a page of index? REvans4: Page of text SHughes512: Page of text TeriSongs: <--speaking of page of text SHughes512: Some publishers pay by the entry. Aplfgcnys: I'm sure that would never fly with any of my editors OnlineHost: Nrslyn has entered the room. TeriSongs: I've started keeping a list of funny names I come across when I' m indexing TeriSongs: Want to hear some? SHughes512: sure Mgendx: Ready TeriSongs: Here's a cute one--> P.M. Sandman Nrslyn: AOL just cut me off. I hate that TeriSongs: A very sleepy guy Bookindexr: Hi Nrslyn I didn't see you leave..:) welcome back SHughes512: must have parents with a sense of humor TeriSongs: Mr. Bucqueroux---a fancy French cowboy Nrslyn: Thanks. I don't say much, tho. TeriSongs: W. Ding (Does his name ring a bell?) Bookindexr: :) Me either just ask a lot a questions. TeriSongs: C. Kubelick (loves to lick ice cubes) SHughes512: odd Bookindexr: I am going to have to get my dictionary out and look all of thos e up. TeriSongs: Galbo (can't decide on gender) SHughes512: that's pushing it a bit Nrslyn: Bookindexr, have you taken a course in indexing? TeriSongs: That's all I have now TeriSongs: I know TeriSongs: sorry SHughes512: 8-) Mgendx: I'm still chuckling. Bookindexr: I took the Susan Holbert's video course and studied and am restudying Nancy Mulvaney's book TeriSongs: Here's a funny one---P. Roop TeriSongs: Just sounds funny when you say it outloud SHughes512: Can't hear chuckles or accents on AOL. Where is everyone from? Or did I miss that TeriSongs: <---Los Angeles suburb Nrslyn: Where did you find the video course? SHughes512: Chicago Aplfgcnys: Where would find a course on indexing? I never had one. Mgendx: You did, but we can do it again. NJ Bookindexr: We need to get sound for our chat room Bookindexr: Memphis, Tennessee Aplfgcnys: New York area - Westchester Countyt SHughes512: There are a couple of courses in Chicago. One as a college course Bookindexr: Susan Holbert has a web page I will find it and send it to you. TeriSongs: <---edited books on Chicago, Memphis, New Jersey ! REvans4: APL: You near Poughkeepsie? SHughes512: and one as an adult ed course with a university Aplfgcnys: Is that connected with the Library School? Mgendx: A book on New Jersey? TeriSongs: Yep SHughes512: One is a Rosary College (oops Benedictine now) SHughes512: and one with the U of C extension program TeriSongs: A coffee-table book with lots of photos Aplfgcnys: Down the river from Poughkeepsie? Are you near there? SHughes512: in publishing TeriSongs: A history Mgendx: What was the title? The gist of the thing? ... REvans4: I used to psend a lot of time in Pok when I was with IBM TeriSongs: Mg, it was an illustrated history SHughes512: right now, both have the same teacher. 'Locatelli' SHughes512: or Fred Liese Mgendx: Anything in it on the Morris Canal? Nrslyn: Doesn't Rosary have a good Lib. Science program? TeriSongs: Yes! But I also edited a Morris Country book Aplfgcnys: REvans - Oh, an ex-IBMer - were you downsized? TeriSongs: What city are you in? Mgendx: !!!!! Also history? TeriSongs: yes Mgendx: Madison. It's in Morris county. REvans4: Guess you cold call it that. SHughes512: Right,, the xRosary is one of the accredited library science courses REvans4: Fortunately, I was close to retirement anyway TeriSongs: MG, I worked on the book in the early '80s TeriSongs: If I remember correctly SHughes512: I've gotta get my husband to check on early retirement from his place. Nrslyn: SHughes-I'm from Chicago but live near Raleigh now Aplfgcnys: REvans - my husband was a "outplacement counseller" who did a lo t of IBM work. SHughes512: maybe we could escape to a cheaper prettier area TeriSongs: Going to visit the Writers Cafe SHughes512: Bye Teriu TeriSongs: I'll talk to all of you next week SHughes512: Teri TeriSongs: Bye REvans4: Nite Teri Mgendx: Bye Teri. See you next week. OnlineHost: TeriSongs has left the room. Nrslyn: My friend's daughter went to Rosary for 1 yr SHughes512: My daughter had to go to Minn. even though there are lots of colleges in Chicago Nrslyn: Why? SHughes512: One year and three quarters more tuition to go SHughes512: She didn't want to stay at home Aplfgcnys: This has been an interesting exercise - sometimes I feel very alone in my profession Nrslyn: So she went to freezing MN!! SHughes512: Loves it. Mgendx: Book - Do you get the credit for this chat room? Aplfgcnys: I never met any indexers but one time - and there were an odd bunch. SHughes512: Maybe there is a way to get it into the writers group and get credit SHughes512: I used to do one and got free AOL for years Aplfgcnys: Credit for what? Mgendx: No. No. I mean, who's idea was this? REvans4: Hardly worth worrying about with the rates now. I only pay $7.9 5/mo Bookindexr: Nrslyn you have mail :) Nrslyn: OK SHughes512: oops gotta go. the dog is creating havoc Mgendx: Well, whoever thought of it gets cheers from me. Live professional contact is something OnlineHost: SHughes512 has left the room. Mgendx: I really miss as a freelancer. Nrslyn: Bye now. Gotta go. Good talking to you again. OnlineHost: Nrslyn has left the room. Bookindexr: Hope I didn't ignore anyone am still busy corraling Aplfgcnys: I thought I would be too tired for this - but it was interesting - thanks, Bookindexr REvans4: See you all next week. Good night Bookindexr: yes I guess I do Mgendx OnlineHost: REvans4 has left the room. Mgendx: Bye all. Thanks bookindexr! Bookindexr: was beginning to get worried about the slow starting though OnlineHost: Aplfgcnys has left the room. Bookindexr: By Mgendx Mgendx: My last message didn't make it. Bookindexr: by Mgendxz Bookindexr: oops bye Mgendx Bookindexr: lol Bookindexr: see you next week Mgendx: Thanks Book! OnlineHost: Mgendx has left the room. OnlineHost: OnlineHost: *** You are in "Book Indexers Chat". *** OnlineHost: Bookindexr: P.S. I have found out the demo I was talking about that only worked from A-M was the Sky Index for Windows . The old demo that I had download worked fine but would not print. I believe the Indexx program is just limited in the number of entries you can have 50 I believe..correct me if I am wrong. But for someone with limited fund to start out with the Cindex demo sounds best to me or Sky index for Windows full version, it is only $99. I am not sure how many entries it takes for an average book but the 275 entries sound pretty good. I plan to buy either the full version of Cindex or the New Sky Index Professional with my first index job. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:48:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Chat Log I am not going to be able to answer my mail for a few days may daughter is in the hospital with premature labor. There have been so many request for Monday's Chat Log I have decided to post it here for those who are interested. The next AOL Chat will be Monday 6:30 Pacific, 7:30 Mountain, 8:30 Central, 9:30 Eastern. OnlineHost: OnlineHost: *** You are in "Book Indexers Chat". *** OnlineHost: Bookindexr: Hi Dick!! REvans4: Hi REvans4: Looks like there will be at least two of us Bookindexr: I had gotten a little discouraged the last two weeks but today I had several new people Bookindexr: inquire about it. REvans4: I was on a deadline last week, but signed on anyway. REvans4: When I didn't see anyone here, I didn't hang around long. Bookindexr: :) I guess it was good it didn't work out then. Bookindexr: I have stopped working at the book store during the week. It was taking away from my Bookindexr: indexing REvans4: On Wednesday I had a series of six books postponed until after REvans4: the first of the year. REvans4: I was getting panicky, then by Friday I had six others booked. REvans4: Things always seem to work out. Bookindexr: wow!! bet you were :) Bookindexr: You're very inspiring. Bookindexr: I would have love to have come to the Carolina meeting. REvans4: It was more like perspiring for a couple of days. Bookindexr: How did it go. Bookindexr: lol REvans4: Very successful. Fifteen in attendance. Bookindexr: That is great. I worked that weekend. I wished I had paid more attention REvans4: Got our bylaws and all the formalities out of the way Bookindexr: I would have taken off and came. REvans4: TN is a ways from Raleigh Bookindexr: I went back and forth to Chesapeake six times this summer...lol Bookindexr: my brother lives there. He is in the Navy. Got used to traveling. Bookindexr: Raleigh would have been a breeze. REvans4: Our next meeting is in March. I can't remember where, but it's Bookindexr: Besides I want to see North Carolina. We went there on our honeymoon. REvans4: a little west of Raleigh Bookindexr: lol a little closer anyway :) OnlineHost: Nrslyn has entered the room. Bookindexr: that won't be bad it should be too cold. Bookindexr: Hi Nrslyn!!! Nrslyn: Hi, people Bookindexr: oops shouldn't REvans4: I like NC. I've lived in Kentucky, Florida, NY, PA, Mass, Alaba ma Bookindexr: We are talking about the next meeting for the North Carolina ASI REvans4: Hi Nrslyn Bookindexr: It was in Raleigh the last time and REvans was a speaker. Nrslyn: Hi, Dick. Good to meet you last Sat. REvans4: Pardon me if I don't connect the screen name . . . OnlineHost: Aplfgcnys has entered the room. Bookindexr: which one? REvans4: Nrslyn Bookindexr: Hi Apl glad you made it!!!! Nrslyn: Lynne Wellin...Husband is a programmer REvans4: Oh, sure. REvans4: I was just telling Sue that it was a good turnout. Bookindexr: I have all the names mixed up. I had them all written down next to the screen names and ran Bookindexr: off and left it at the shop Aplfgcnys: I had trouble logging on for the first time in months Nrslyn: Enjoyed your presentation. Learned a lot Bookindexr: You went to the meeting Lynne? Nrslyn: Yes. Enjoyed it. Didn't know what to expect at first Bookindexr: I would have loved to have gone. Computer indexing in my goal bu t I am going to have to REvans4: No one did Bookindexr: start at the bottom of the totum (sp) poll. Bookindexr: probably history text books. I love history. Aplfgcnys: Just how do you define computer indexing REvans4: Any indexing of computer topics Bookindexr: anything to do with computer ...lol book indexing and then onlin e indexing Nrslyn: Where are you from, Aplfgcnys? OnlineHost: Mgendx has entered the room. Bookindexr: Hi Mgendx!!!! glad you made it. :) Aplfgcnys: New York area Aplfgcnys: And you? Mgendx: Golly, that was easy! Thanks Bookindexr: I am from Memphis, Tennessee and want to be a Virginian or North Carolinian Nrslyn: NC near Raleigh Mgendx: NJ here Bookindexr: lol ...the link Mgendx? REvans4: Originally Binghamton, NY. Now Raleigh, NC Aplfgcnys: What is the source of indexing work out of the metropolitan area ? Mgendx: Yes. I seem to get kicked out too often when I'm trying to connect to something important. REvans4: No one source. I work for publishers and corporations REvans4: from local Raleigh area to west coast. Aplfgcnys: Good for you! What sort of corporations need indexes? REvans4: SAS Institute in Cary, for one. Also lots of small software Mgendx: Does anyone here ever bother to check into the AOL index board anymore? REvans4: houses here in the area. Bookindexr: Trying to herd them in...lol REvans4: Not much activity on AOL index board Aplfgcnys: What is the AOL index board? REvans4: INDEX-L is the thing now Mgendx: I know. I miss it (AOL, that is). REvans4: AOL index used to be an active message board for indexers. Bookindexr: I have never heard of it? Mgendx: I like index-L, but it gets a bit cumbersome sometimes. Bookindexr: I can barely keep up sometimes. Nrslyn: How do you get to Index-L? Mgendx: Book - the AOL board? Its in the writers club. Cindex, Macrex and ASI boards are there too. REvans4: you have to subscribe. If you are interested, drop me a note la ter Aplfgcnys: What is INDEX-L? I'm new at this. REvans4: and I will send instructions. Bookindexr: oh yes I have the writer's club on my favorite places. REvans4: INDEX-L is a listserv. Are you familiar with listservs? Aplfgcnys: No Nrslyn: No Bookindexr: but I didn't see anything about an Index board but that is where I found out about indexing REvans4: A listserv is like a round-robin e-mail conversation. Bookindexr: to begin with. It is what original motivated me. REvans4: Once you are "subscribed" you can send an e-mail message and Mgendx: Nrslyn - I just sent someone an email on that, I'll cc you. REvans4: it will be received and read by everyone else on the list. Aplfgcnys: My primary purpose for the internet is e-mail from my sons Nrslyn: Thanks REvans4: Likewise, you see anything that any other subscriber sends. Bookindexr: It is really amazing how much you learn from it. REvans4: Excellent resource for asking index questions Mgendx: Book - I forget the actual trail, but I'll retrace it and email the steps. Bookindexr: ok thanks Mgendx Bookindexr: Dick I ordered that book you suggested, can't remember the name now though Mgendx: It's a lot less active than Index-L, though. Bookindexr: it was $26.95 but I got 25% off because I work for the book store. REvans4: Style Guide for the Compuer Industry? Bookindexr: yep that's it. Mgendx: Dick - How long have you been indexing? REvans4: Since '92 Bookindexr: has anyone tried the new Sky index program yet? Aplfgcnys: What was the suggested book"? REvans4: I was a beta tester on SkyIndex Professional. Very impressive Bookindexr: Style Guide for the Computer Industry REvans4: It will be a contender with Cindex and Macrex Aplfgcnys: How does an REvans4: The full book title is "Read Me First: a Style Guide for the Computer Industry" Bookindexr: I have the demo for the regular one but can't decide which to order Aplfgcnys: "index program" work? REvans4: Chapter 9 does an excellent job on indexing technical stuff Bookindexr: the $129.00 or the $300.00 + one Nrslyn: Which program is best for a beginner? Mgendx: Which program is best for a creature of habit like me? REvans4: It depends on how long you want to be a beginner. If you are serios, REvans4: go for the best tools you can afford. Mgendx: I'm still using wordperfect with custom macros. REvans4: If you are just getting your feet wet and want cheap practice, g o with one of the Nrslyn: Which are the best? Bookindexr: Since I havn't got my first job yet I am not sure how long it will take I am thinking about REvans4: cheaper packages. Bookindexr: just getting the less expensive one. REvans4: Of course, you can get a Cindex demo for $50. Bookindexr: I know but isn't it limited in some way Dick? REvans4: WordPerfect is not an indexing tool. OK for practice, but not f or production work. REvans4: Limited in the number of entries you can create, but otherwise f ully functional. Mgendx: So I have been told. Most of my work is a little offbeat, not BOB Aplfgcnys: I guess I'm the old-timer here. I started with three-by-five cards, and computerized my ope Mgendx: ANd I have made WP jump through hoops. Mgendx: Still< I should get a better tool for indexing. Aplfgcnys: peration 13 years ago. I still use an editor, which I think is much better than any word -p Aplfgcnys: processer. Mgendx: Apl - I remember 3x5s REvans4: Once you've become proficient with a dedicated indexing program you will never REvans4: willinigly use anything else Nrslyn: Are you going to demonstrate Cindex at the next meeting, Dick? REvans4: Unless someone else wants to do something. Bookindexr: I used the Skyindex demo to index McAfee's Virus Manual. I thought it would be a good start the Bookindexr: original was a disaster all of the pages Bookindexr: were off one or two page numbers. So I reindexed it hoping to sell it to McAfee along with the Bookindexr: idea that using an freelancer was better than what it looked like they had used, embedded software Bookindexr: But I couldn't print it so I just copied it to Word and Bookindexr: manually formatted it worked fine. Bookindexr: but everything was there to index it with. Bookindexr: I was told that cindex's demo would let you do but 50 entry or something like that REvans4: More like 275 REvans4: I read that figure on their message board a couple of days ago Mgendx: From what I understand, the demo gives a pretty good picture of what you'll be getting with Bookindexr: Really Dick can you do all the alphabets Mgendx: the whole package. REvans4: All the alphabets? Bookindexr: Do you know if you can print from it? Mgendx: Can Cindex work as a database for journal indexes? REvans4: You can print. Bookindexr: A-Z REvans4: It used to be that spell check was not available Bookindexr: There was one demo that wouldn't let you do past the M's REvans4: Not sure now REvans4: Book: I don't understand REvans4: You can do whatever you want for 275 records Aplfgcnys: Just what does an index program do? Read the book for you? Bookindexr: I believe the program is call Indexx and it won't let you index anything staring with M or REvans4: No, it does all the mechanical things you would do with cards: sorting, formatting, etc Bookindexr: any other alphabet after that. Just A-M Bookindexr: Lol Apl REvans4: Oh. No, CIndex has no such limit Aplfgcnys: My simple editor does all that REvans4: It may seem like it does. You'd have to see Cindex in actino. No comparison Bookindexr: Great!!! I think I will get it then. It would be better than the SkyIndex's Bookindexr: older version REvans4: Suppose you have finished a thousand page book and the publisher calls REvans4: to tell you they have inserted three pages at the end of chapter one. Mgendx: First, I would scream. REvans4: Cindex can adjust all subsequent page numbers by three. Aplfgcnys: 275 records would not start most indices REvans4: That's why it's only a demo. It's not intended to let you do production work Mgendx: Hmmmm. Cindex is sounding better and better. But I don't do that Mgendx: many end of book indexes. Mgendx: What else can Cindex do? REvans4: What kind do you do? Mgendx: My favorite kind of job in a pile of journals to be abstracted and/or indexed Aplfgcnys: Where else is an index? Mgendx: Organized into a nice database to be used for either print or online retrieval. REvans4: Check their Wb page: http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html Mgendx: Writing that down now. REvans4: Cindex can do those just as well REvans4: Cindex can generate delimied databas files REvans4: that's "delimited" Bookindexr: I would really love to do online indexing. Mgendx: Dick - This is getting more an more convincing. I have a feeling that if Mgendx: I buy Cindex, I'll kick myself for not getting it sooner. Bookindexr: I am logging the chat for anyone that is interested...let me kno w Mgendx: Typos and all? REvans4: The current version is DOS. A Windows version is due any day no w Bookindexr: Yep lol...want me to correct them? Bookindexr: I can run it through word :) Mgendx: DOS doesn't bother me at all. Simplicity in itself. No silly icons. OnlineHost: SHughes512 has entered the room. REvans4: I like the DOS versoin. Bookindexr: Hi!!!!! Sharon Aplfgcnys: Being a DOS program is a selling point with me - I hate Windows SHughes512: HI, my curiosity got the better of my plans REvans4: In a pinch, I have fallen back on an old 286/12 machine to get a job done Mgendx: Apl - Applause! Applause! Bookindexr: lol glad you made it :) Mgendx: I'm keeping my old 286 until it dies a natural death. SHughes512: We do large indexes so the old 386 was too slow. REvans4: I had two Pentium desktops and an IBM ThinkPad all down at the s ame time. Bookindexr: I have one of those. I even have aol on it. SHughes512: I'd sort all night REvans4: The 286 was alife saver Mgendx: 286 may be slow but it's my trusty rusty Aplfgcnys: I gave my 286 to FGCNYS four years ago - I have now given them m y 486 SHughes512: a 286 works fine for entry. Bookindexr: I have the skyindex program on it at work to practice while I work Mgendx: I did a huge job on my 286 several years ago. It had to grind away OnlineHost: TeriSongs has entered the room. Mgendx: all night for each phase. Bookindexr: Teri you got my E-mail!!!! Bookindexr: couldn't IM you :( TeriSongs: Thanks Book! SHughes512: right.. I do a couple of indexes with over 30.000 entries every year TeriSongs: I was in the "Real World" live chat REvans4: That's huge! My biggest is about 4,000 Bookindexr: wow Sharon how long does that usually take? TeriSongs: <---finished a 60-page index today! SHughes512: If it crashed in the middle of an overnight sort that would be hell Bookindexr: lol Teri TeriSongs: Feel sorry for the publisher REvans4: How big was the book for a 60-page index? Mgendx: I know. I was lucky and it made it through the project. TeriSongs: The book was only 169 pages SHughes512: We work on them for a while. I did a large one for a database company this year TeriSongs: That was 60 manuscript pages SHughes512: where I could copy most of the keywords into excel and that took 2 months REvans4: Teri: Why such a big index in proportion tot he book? REvans4: My publishers expect about 5% for the index Aplfgcnys: Who does an overnight sort - gsort takes less than a minute for 20,000 entries on my pentium TeriSongs: RE--It was a very dense book REvans4: Your book would have been about 8 pages TeriSongs: I cut the index and cut it and cut it SHughes512: The pentium replaced the 386 and the overnight sorts TeriSongs: and got it down to 40 mss pages REvans4: Teri: What topic? TeriSongs: Immigration and Education TeriSongs: What a pain! TeriSongs: Every page had about 50 entries on it TeriSongs: Thought I was going to go insane Aplfgcnys: Aren't you given specs for the number of lines Mgendx: SH - When we got the new computer I had to change my whole working style. Bookindexr: Wow every line must have been underlined. TeriSongs: Almost! TeriSongs: My hand is killing me Mgendx: No longer co I have to say "well, I do this while the computer does that..." SHughes512: Mg, I can imagine. I find I can use any old machine to enter data but the manipulation SHughes512: needs a fast one Bookindexr: I know what you mean. With my 286 I can wait on a customer while it changes from one screen Aplfgcnys: The most difficult task in indexing is cutting to fit the specs. TeriSongs: lol Bookindexr: to the other with this one it is a flash. Mgendx: Agree - Data entry can be done on just about anything. TeriSongs: Apl, only one of the editors I work with gives me specs for leng th TeriSongs: The others don't seem to care TeriSongs: And they all work for the same company TeriSongs: Go figure! SHughes512: I want to quit my day job.. Is everyone here full time indexing? Bookindexr: Am I the only beginner in here you all sound so knowledgeable REvans4: <---- Full time Mgendx: Part time freelance. Full time mom. Aplfgcnys: Teri - you're so lucky! Only one I work for - Columbia U. Press - doesn't give me specs Nrslyn: I'm a beginner TeriSongs: SH, I make a full-time living from part-time indexing Bookindexr: knowledgable? SHughes512: Teri,, that's wonderful. TeriSongs: But I'm also an editor and writer Bookindexr: Lol Good I am not alone TeriSongs: and songwriter Mgendx: Teri - How? Aplfgcnys: I don't live on my indexing income, but I'm almost full-time for many years now SHughes512: Ahhh.. I think I could dig up some analysis chores to fill in th e cracks.. but Mgendx: disregard my last ?? SHughes512: the family likes to eat TeriSongs: They pay me $2 a page, and I usually take 2 days to index each book TeriSongs: The faster I work, the more I get paid SHughes512: Teri,, how many books do you get per year? SHughes512: I do a lot of technical journals because the work is regular enough to plan my time TeriSongs: Usually one or two a week, but I had a month off TeriSongs: in the summer Aplfgcnys: I figure my rates at $2.50 /page +- depending on the difficulty of work Bookindexr: Teri is that the normal rate for the type of indexing you are doing? TeriSongs: Book, I have no idea TeriSongs: LOL Bookindexr: :) REvans4: You know, there is an ASI salary survey TeriSongs: You're the only other indexers I've ever talked to Aplfgcnys: One of my editors sent me a copy of a letter to an author in whi ch she stated that I was SHughes512: I know I analyzed it (for free) REvans4: Don't know if it's on their Web page yet Aplfgcnys: their most "reasonable" indexer. Bookindexr: I thought if you were experience you could charge something like $3.50 a page TeriSongs: Apl, that is not necessarily a good thing SHughes512: It all depends on the difficulty of the work. and the density of material REvans4: Compute books get $3/page and up. I assume other techie stuff w ould too TeriSongs: The other company I work for pays me a flat fee Mgendx: Apl - shat subjects do you do? Bookindexr: I guess that is where I am getting that. That is what I have bee n studying mostly SHughes512: There were fewer typos in my report than the rest of keywords 8- ) Aplfgcnys: Anything that comes my way TeriSongs: <---fastest indexer in the West : ) Mgendx: Excuse me - make that "What subjects do you do?" OnlineHost: Nrslyn has left the room. SHughes512: Someone in the survey gets 7.00/page Bookindexr: I never did get my Keywords :( SHughes512: wonder what they index Bookindexr: has everyone else? Mgendx: Book - Just got mine 2 days ago. REvans4: That's usually for a software house. TeriSongs: SH, If I got $7 a page, I'd be making more than the author REvans4: Publishers don't pay those rates. TeriSongs: Well, almost SHughes512: It looked like a legal indexer from the other answers TeriSongs: I'd be making more than the editor Aplfgcnys: Are we speaking of a page of text or a page of index? REvans4: Page of text SHughes512: Page of text TeriSongs: <--speaking of page of text SHughes512: Some publishers pay by the entry. Aplfgcnys: I'm sure that would never fly with any of my editors OnlineHost: Nrslyn has entered the room. TeriSongs: I've started keeping a list of funny names I come across when I' m indexing TeriSongs: Want to hear some? SHughes512: sure Mgendx: Ready TeriSongs: Here's a cute one--> P.M. Sandman Nrslyn: AOL just cut me off. I hate that TeriSongs: A very sleepy guy Bookindexr: Hi Nrslyn I didn't see you leave..:) welcome back SHughes512: must have parents with a sense of humor TeriSongs: Mr. Bucqueroux---a fancy French cowboy Nrslyn: Thanks. I don't say much, tho. TeriSongs: W. Ding (Does his name ring a bell?) Bookindexr: :) Me either just ask a lot a questions. TeriSongs: C. Kubelick (loves to lick ice cubes) SHughes512: odd Bookindexr: I am going to have to get my dictionary out and look all of thos e up. TeriSongs: Galbo (can't decide on gender) SHughes512: that's pushing it a bit Nrslyn: Bookindexr, have you taken a course in indexing? TeriSongs: That's all I have now TeriSongs: I know TeriSongs: sorry SHughes512: 8-) Mgendx: I'm still chuckling. Bookindexr: I took the Susan Holbert's video course and studied and am restudying Nancy Mulvaney's book TeriSongs: Here's a funny one---P. Roop TeriSongs: Just sounds funny when you say it outloud SHughes512: Can't hear chuckles or accents on AOL. Where is everyone from? Or did I miss that TeriSongs: <---Los Angeles suburb Nrslyn: Where did you find the video course? SHughes512: Chicago Aplfgcnys: Where would find a course on indexing? I never had one. Mgendx: You did, but we can do it again. NJ Bookindexr: We need to get sound for our chat room Bookindexr: Memphis, Tennessee Aplfgcnys: New York area - Westchester Countyt SHughes512: There are a couple of courses in Chicago. One as a college course Bookindexr: Susan Holbert has a web page I will find it and send it to you. TeriSongs: <---edited books on Chicago, Memphis, New Jersey ! REvans4: APL: You near Poughkeepsie? SHughes512: and one as an adult ed course with a university Aplfgcnys: Is that connected with the Library School? Mgendx: A book on New Jersey? TeriSongs: Yep SHughes512: One is a Rosary College (oops Benedictine now) SHughes512: and one with the U of C extension program TeriSongs: A coffee-table book with lots of photos Aplfgcnys: Down the river from Poughkeepsie? Are you near there? SHughes512: in publishing TeriSongs: A history Mgendx: What was the title? The gist of the thing? ... REvans4: I used to psend a lot of time in Pok when I was with IBM TeriSongs: Mg, it was an illustrated history SHughes512: right now, both have the same teacher. 'Locatelli' SHughes512: or Fred Liese Mgendx: Anything in it on the Morris Canal? Nrslyn: Doesn't Rosary have a good Lib. Science program? TeriSongs: Yes! But I also edited a Morris Country book Aplfgcnys: REvans - Oh, an ex-IBMer - were you downsized? TeriSongs: What city are you in? Mgendx: !!!!! Also history? TeriSongs: yes Mgendx: Madison. It's in Morris county. REvans4: Guess you cold call it that. SHughes512: Right,, the xRosary is one of the accredited library science courses REvans4: Fortunately, I was close to retirement anyway TeriSongs: MG, I worked on the book in the early '80s TeriSongs: If I remember correctly SHughes512: I've gotta get my husband to check on early retirement from his place. Nrslyn: SHughes-I'm from Chicago but live near Raleigh now Aplfgcnys: REvans - my husband was a "outplacement counseller" who did a lo t of IBM work. SHughes512: maybe we could escape to a cheaper prettier area TeriSongs: Going to visit the Writers Cafe SHughes512: Bye Teriu TeriSongs: I'll talk to all of you next week SHughes512: Teri TeriSongs: Bye REvans4: Nite Teri Mgendx: Bye Teri. See you next week. OnlineHost: TeriSongs has left the room. Nrslyn: My friend's daughter went to Rosary for 1 yr SHughes512: My daughter had to go to Minn. even though there are lots of colleges in Chicago Nrslyn: Why? SHughes512: One year and three quarters more tuition to go SHughes512: She didn't want to stay at home Aplfgcnys: This has been an interesting exercise - sometimes I feel very alone in my profession Nrslyn: So she went to freezing MN!! SHughes512: Loves it. Mgendx: Book - Do you get the credit for this chat room? Aplfgcnys: I never met any indexers but one time - and there were an odd bunch. SHughes512: Maybe there is a way to get it into the writers group and get credit SHughes512: I used to do one and got free AOL for years Aplfgcnys: Credit for what? Mgendx: No. No. I mean, who's idea was this? REvans4: Hardly worth worrying about with the rates now. I only pay $7.9 5/mo Bookindexr: Nrslyn you have mail :) Nrslyn: OK SHughes512: oops gotta go. the dog is creating havoc Mgendx: Well, whoever thought of it gets cheers from me. Live professional contact is something OnlineHost: SHughes512 has left the room. Mgendx: I really miss as a freelancer. Nrslyn: Bye now. Gotta go. Good talking to you again. OnlineHost: Nrslyn has left the room. Bookindexr: Hope I didn't ignore anyone am still busy corraling Aplfgcnys: I thought I would be too tired for this - but it was interesting - thanks, Bookindexr REvans4: See you all next week. Good night Bookindexr: yes I guess I do Mgendx OnlineHost: REvans4 has left the room. Mgendx: Bye all. Thanks bookindexr! Bookindexr: was beginning to get worried about the slow starting though OnlineHost: Aplfgcnys has left the room. Bookindexr: By Mgendx Mgendx: My last message didn't make it. Bookindexr: by Mgendxz Bookindexr: oops bye Mgendx Bookindexr: lol Bookindexr: see you next week Mgendx: Thanks Book! OnlineHost: Mgendx has left the room. OnlineHost: OnlineHost: *** You are in "Book Indexers Chat". *** OnlineHost: Bookindexr: P.S. I have found out the demo I was talking about that only worked from A-M was the Sky Index for Windows . The old demo that I had download worked fine but would not print. I believe the Indexx program is just limited in the number of entries you can have 50 I believe..correct me if I am wrong. But for someone with limited fund to start out with the Cindex demo sounds best to me or Sky index for Windows full version, it is only $99. I am not sure how many entries it takes for an average book but the 275 entries sound pretty good. I plan to buy either the full version of Cindex or the New Sky Index Professional with my first index job. Susan Wilkerson bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:12:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Washington DC ASI chapter Sorry for the one liner, but I second that (below)! I'd like the same information, if anyone has it. Thanks! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net > Is anyone out there a member of the WAshington DC ASI chapter? I've been > trying to contact someone to find out when the next meeting will be and can't > seem to get a response. I'd appreciate any contact info anyone might have. > Thank you!!!! > > Stefanie Eye ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:45:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Re: format for multiple authors In a message dated 97-10-09 14:04:26 EDT, Kara wrote: << However, I feel that when work by more than person (for example, the content of a book by two or three authors) is discussed, each of those people should be indexed separately? Example: work by John Doe and Mary Smith, assuming it is an indexable reference, would be indexed under both "Doe, John" and "Smith, Mary". Am I right about this? If I index them the way the author requests me to (Doe, J. and M. Smith), there will be no entry point for Smith, which doesn't seem right. >> I used to feel this way too, noting that if the reader could only think of the second (or third, etc) author's name they would not be able to locate the book in the bibliography. It would only be listed under the primary author's name. The index seemed like a good place to double post with an inverted entry. However, all the authors I have talked to about this (who are also the scholars using the indexes in question) felt that it was unnecessary. They have consistently expressed their belief that the books would be known by their primary author. So, in my case, the index entries only go under the primary author's name as in: Doe, J. and M. Smith, concluding that the space can be better used for other types of entries. Jill Jill Barrett Indexing & Editorial Services (Specializing in Religion Titles) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:50:50 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: format for multiple authors In-Reply-To: <199710100545.WAA23042@pacific.net> Kara wrote: ><< However, I feel that when work by more than person (for > example, the content of a book by two or three authors) is discussed, each > of those people should be indexed separately? > Jill wrote: >I used to feel this way too, noting that if the reader could only think of >the second (or third, etc) author's name they would not be able to locate the >book in the bibliography. It would only be listed under the primary author's >name. The index seemed like a good place to double post with an inverted >entry. However, all the authors I have talked to about this (who are also >the scholars using the indexes in question) felt that it was unnecessary. > They have consistently expressed their belief that the books would be known >by their primary author. So, in my case, the index entries only go under the >primary author's name as in: Doe, J. and M. Smith, concluding that the space >can be better used for other types of entries. Although the requirements can vary according to publisher and field, there is a lot of politicking about whose name goes on a publication first, for this very reason. All the names are by no means always indexed. Also, there was a discussion of this some months back, but I have no idea what the subject line was, if you were to check the archives. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:32:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Re: Still no Keywords >IN>The subject line says it all. >IN>Anyone else still waiting? >IN>Dick > >10/09/97 > >Yes. I am new to ASI (joined Feb. 1997) and didn't remember the >frequency of Keywords. I realized I have only received the >January/February 1997 issue to date. >I sent a letter to ASI to inform them of this error. > >Cheryl McQueen >McIndexer@pwshift.com =================================================== Yes. I e-mailed ASI and received a prompt reply from Bonnie Parks - Davies that ASI will mail me another copy. It sounds as if many copies went astray. Is it only we new members who are affected? Karen Lane klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 06:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: format for multiple authors Kara Pekar wrote: > > I've just been asked by an author to make some corrections to the index I > submitted for her book. She is questioning the inclusion of several of the > secondary and tertiary names in groups of authors whose work is discussed. A ticklish subject, to be sure. Due to various author preferences, I've put no authors in, some in, or all authors in, depending. The principle of the thing would dictate that you include all the authors if you include one. Although it would seem that the most important author would be first, my PhD husband says that they often arbitrarily choose who is first author, or "take turns" to give grad students a chance to be first. On the other hand, some of the author citings could be for vanity only, and that's probably the case for the trivial ones the author wants to include. I agree that you should put both authors in, but the bottom line is that if the author wants you to handle the names a certain way, you should state your case politely, and then do what she says. She's got the copyright, after all. > > In this particular situation, it is complicated by the fact that I'm > dealing with the author through the editor. Should I ask for the author's > email or telephone number to talk with her directly, or keep working > through the editor? I'm on a tightish deadline, but I don't want to be > impolitic. I would ask to speak to the author directly, but if the editor doesn't have a policy to do that, I wouldn't press it too far. Good luck! Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- Do or do not. There is no try. --Yoda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:11:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: Card catalog in junior high library In a message dated 97-10-09 15:01:42 EDT, you write: > If the school library is receiving catalog cards with books ordered from > different jobbers, maybe the jobbers aren't all using the same system to > account for the hdg variations encountered. If the school is assigning the > hdgs, suggest using one system to whomever is responsible. Trying to unify > the hdgs at the point of filing the cards will miss making wherever they > originate consistent. Controlling vocabulary across systems is not easy. Yes, this is the problem, combined with the fact that some of the cards have probably been in the catalog for 30-40 years. But it looks as though someone (maybe) tried to put "like terms" together in the card catalog, which only serves to confuse, because the headings are not in the same format. Also, who knows how many people have filed cards in this catalog over the years, and how many of them knew how to alphabetize? :-) I really had a hard time even deciding if they were "trying" to alphabetize letter by letter or word by word. (Which may show my own ignorance about cataloging rules.) Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:06:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Opportunity for abstractor/indexer This was posted to the medlib-l listserv. Please reply directly to Kassie Reeves. From: Kassie Reeves Subject: ? Is there a contract service for abstractors? I work in the Education & Networking Department of VHA Inc---an alliance of 1500+ not-for-profit health care organizations. One of the services we offer is to periodically bring together (in what we call Affinity Groups) CEOs, CFOs, COOs, Strategists, etc, of the hospitals in our alliance for learning opportunities from others in their same position in other hospitals in the alliance. They exchange ideas about problems and issues that each group is facing in the health care industry today. One of our challenges in doing this is to capture knowledge from their discussions so that it can be summarized, indexed, disseminated and put in a searchable database. My question is if there are any of you that know of a company or service that abstractors or something equivalent can be contracted for to summarize and possibly index these dicussions either nationwide or in the Dallas, TX area? I would appreciate any help that any of you can give. To reply directly to me, my e-mail address is kreeves@vha.com Kassie Reeves Information and Research Specialist Education & Networking VHA Inc 220 East Las Colinas Blvd Irving, TX 75039 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:15:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holler Subject: Re: Lynn's Surgery Erin or Dawn, Will you please repost Lynn's hospital address. I missed getting it from one of your posts and now can't find it. Let Lynn know that many of us (even list lurchers like me!) miss her helpful comments. Hope to see her posting again very soon. Susan Holler ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:20:07 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: format for multiple authors In-Reply-To: <199710100422.XAA02174@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Example: work by John Doe >and Mary Smith, assuming it is an indexable reference, would be indexed >under both "Doe, John" and "Smith, Mary". Am I right about this? That's how I do it. Your're quite right that users won't be able to find Mary Smith if she's listed with John Doe. Did you point this out to the author? And I wonder how she'd feel if her joint paper (in which her name was not first) was treated that way in sombody else's index. >In this particular situation, it is complicated by the fact that I'm >dealing with the author through the editor. Should I ask for the author's >email or telephone number to talk with her directly, or keep working >through the editor? I'm on a tightish deadline, but I don't want to be >impolitic. Nothing wrong with it if the editor doesn't mind. But what does your editor think about these issues the author disagrees with you about? I actually prefer to have the editor involved, because the editor is often my best advocate. Or do you have a timid/inexperienced editor? Your question about how much to accommodate the author is hard to answer. I guess it depends on what the author is asking for. Is she asking for something unnecessary and which will require hours of extra work? Is she willing to compensate you? If an author asked me to do something really outrageous, like capitalize every third letter of each entry or arrange the index in reverse alpha order, I would refuse to do it, because I feel it could jeopardize my career. I would suggest that she take my index and make those changes herself, and then I'd let the editor know in writing how it went down. Back in my copyediting days, I once had an author who vetoed almost all my changes, which left some pretty awful stuff in the book. It was so bad I had to request that my name be removed from the acknowledgments. Then there was the time an author in an anthology changed the name of a translated title of a work, because he thought the title was inaccurate! Never mind that he was thereby listing a title that didn't exist and nobody would be able to look up the actual book. I managed to convince the volume editors that that must not happen, and I found a way for the author to express his dissatisfaction with the translation (in a footnote). You win some, you lose some. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:20:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: marketing In-Reply-To: <199710100422.XAA02174@mixcom.mixcom.com> Sandra Merz Bott wrote: > >As one in charge of indexing at a publisher, I can say that I appreciate >receiving a sample index included with a letter of inquiry--it saves me >the time >it takes to dash off a letter asking for the sample. Also, it would be helpful >to include a resume with three references. > >Sandra Merz Bott >Human Kinetics Sandra, you've got me wondering about something. If an indexer sent you a resume that contained a list of books she'd indexed, and the list had, say, 50 books on it, and there was lots of repeat work with well-known presses, would you still want to see a sample? The reason I ask is that I find it rather tedious (and expensive) to send a sample every time I send out a resume (although I always send one when asked), and I've been assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that an editor can judge my competence adequately from the longish list. I'm not in fightin' mode here--I really am just curious. >One course of action for you to take if you aren't getting any responses from >publishers is to offer your services to a more experienced indexer to >apprentice >yourself. That's how we found two of our many excellent freelance indexers--by >referrals through our current indexers when their workload made it >impossible to >accept a project. (How does this sit well with you more experienced indexers?) Suits me fine. I've often made referrals to other indexers, both experienced and newish. I always let the editor know when I'm suggesting someone who is relatively inexperienced. And yes, I did have an apprentice as well. > >I know this is one-sided, that is, from the publisher's viewpoint and from >only >one publishing house. But, I look kindly on those who have the wherewithal to >venture out on their own. I know you have to get the job down to further your >business and build your reputation. > >I hope this helps. So, send it in and contact them after a reasonable >interval. >We need you as much as you need the work! I love your attitude, Sandra! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Indexes in the news Here's a sentence or three from a review of Word 97 Annoyances, authored by Woody Leonhard, Lee Hudspeth, and T.J. Lee. The reviewer is Frank McGowan, who writes for WindoWatch. Finally, my comments on this excellent book would be incomplete without a note on its index, which is outstanding. The cross references make it almost impossible to miss a topic, and they've avoided entries that start with words like "Using," or "About." Whoever created this index gets an A+. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:25:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: West coast co-op Several years ago I heard of an indexers' co-op on the west coast. This was a confederation of indexers dedicated to finding and distributing work among its members. Once upon a time, I think I had some contact information for them, but now can't find it. Does anyone know of such a group? A contact for the group? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:52:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Carr Subject: Chat log Why were there TWO copies of the chat log on the list? That's alot of space to eat up. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:37:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Indexes in the news In a message dated 97-10-10 12:16:45 EDT, you write: << Here's a sentence or three from a review of Word 97 Annoyances, authored by Woody Leonhard, Lee Hudspeth, and T.J. Lee. The reviewer is Frank McGowan, who writes for WindoWatch. Finally, my comments on this excellent book would be incomplete without a note on its index, which is outstanding. The cross references make it almost impossible to miss a topic, and they've avoided entries that start with words like "Using," or "About." Whoever created this index gets an A+. >> If the author is a subscriber to this list, please take a bow! A little BSP [that's Bashful Self Promotion for those of you who are not DorothyL subscribers!] is always in order! Carolyn Weaver ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:40:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Carr Subject: 169-page book with 60-page index? Did I read this correctly?....I've already deleted it, but then it hit me. A 60-page index was created by someone for a 169-page book? Or did I read it incorrectly or was there a misprint? It also seems like this indexer said that the customer wanted 5% of the book indexed. Well, 5% of 169 is only 8.45 pages? I can't imagine any circumstance that would necessitate a 60-pg index for such a small book. We use a "1-page for every 20 pages of text" guideline, which does amount to 5%. I must be imagining this. Becky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:43:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West coast co-op At 12:25 PM 10/10/1997 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >Several years ago I heard of an indexers' co-op on the west coast. This >was a confederation of indexers dedicated to finding and distributing work >among its members. Once upon a time, I think I had some contact >information for them, but now can't find it. > >Does anyone know of such a group? A contact for the group? I have some vague recollection of this myself, Dick, but don't remember who was doing it or where, or how to contact them. But while we're on the subject, is there any interest in doing something similar (if the original co-op is no longer operating)? I'd like to look into it. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:51:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: 169-page book with 60-page index? At 12:40 PM 10/10/1997 -0500, Rebecca Carr wrote: >I can't imagine any circumstance that >would necessitate a 60-pg index for such a small book. We use a "1-page >for every 20 pages of text" guideline, which does amount to 5%. I saw that post also, and wondered...but not enough to comment on it at the time. About the only reason for such an unusually long index would be if it were to a book of lists of some sort (genealogy, for example), where every entry in every list had to be indexed under its own name, so to speak. Maybe the person who made that post could elucidate the circumstances for us. It must have been one heck of a book! :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:56:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: We're baaack! Well, I was finally able to retreive Lynn's monitor from the shop, so I can begin to get messages back and forth again (time permitting). Our special thanks to Dawn for keeping everyone updated during our technologically enforced "absence". Oh, and more special thanks to Micki for loaning us a printer while ours is down! Lynn is still in the SICU, eagerly awaiting transferral to the HICU. She is gradually becoming her chipper self again. Hopefully, this surgery will put an end to her troubles (at least to some extent) for a while. She seems to be recovering nicely (well, as nicely as one can after a bypass) and even managed to get her breathing exerciser gauge up to 1000 after having received a shot of morphine! Let us all pray that the rest of her recovery is just as speedy and as full of her typical spunk! I'll be posting more later on as time allows. Thank you all for your support during this extended travail. Bob *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: West coast co-op Thanks, Dick, for asking the question about the co-op. I've often thought that a co-op was an interesting idea for those indexers who occasionally have a glut of work, but who do not want to have other indexers working for them, or who do not wish to expand their sole proprietorship into a big business. It is an idea I've wanted to explore more. Any and all info from those who are in such an arrangement or leads on those who know of people who are would be welcomed. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:41:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: West coast co-op I also am on the West Coast (at least for now) and also would be interested in some type of co-op organization. If it has died, maybe we should find out why and what the difficulties were (I have belonged to another professional co-op that withered away). Then perhaps we could learn from the mistakes or learn if it is truly worth it. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:29:55 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op Hello Indexers; In my law work as a paralegal assistant, I heve seen basic rules/guidelines for creating a co-op (all I need to do is dig 'em up again). It seems thus far that any existing groups have perhaps withered and died. I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and with help from interested folks, step up to put a group together that can benefit us here out west, or any other area. I don't feel comfortable limiting this to "Just Us Westerners." (my own humble opinion) If you have an interest and/or experience with any form of co-op, I'd like to begin a list of anyone thinking along these lines. Great things come from little beginnings! Jim Wilson Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:32:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op At 12:29 PM 10/10/1997 +0000, Jim Wilson wrote: >In my law work as a paralegal assistant, I heve seen basic >rules/guidelines for creating a co-op (all I need to do is dig 'em up >again). This would be great, Jim! >I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and with help from interested folks, >step up to put a group together that can benefit us here out west, or >any other area. I don't feel comfortable limiting this to "Just Us >Westerners." (my own humble opinion) IMO, the main reason to have some sort of geographical limit is convenience of the publishers...and, of course, members--who will probably eventually want to try to meet occasionally. I'm not saying a co-op HAS to be limited to the Western U.S., or some specific tier of states, but in my experience smaller publishers are more leery of using long-distance help than the majors, and the West is peppered with small presses. It's just easier to convince these folks to give out-of-town freelancers a try if you're not also out of state and across the country. Also, isn't ASI and the Indexer Services book essentially one big co-op for the national membership? It seems that way to me...and it seems silly to try to duplicate that effort. I'd prefer to keep it more localized--expecting, of course, that if it catches on, there'd be a Northwest U.S./Canada co-op and a Plains States co-op, and a Northeastern U.S./Canada co-op, Southeastern co-op, Gulf States co-op...you get the drift. >If you have an interest and/or experience with any form of co-op, I'd >like to begin a list of anyone thinking along these lines. Add my email address to the list. Who knows where this will take us, but it might be a start to something good. Maybe we should get together a mailing list and take this off Index-L eventually? Only because I'd be concerned about boring others to tears and taking up too much bandwidth with splinter-group stuff. Whadiya think? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:47:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Chat Log Posted Twice----Why? I don't know who made the stupid remark of why I posted Monday's chat log twice...It seems they were worry about my using too much space of Index-L list. I delete the remark without the intentions of reponding because I didn't think it deserved one simply because any one with half a brain would know that I wouln't have intentionally posted the log twice. I had just rushed in from the hospital to change clothes and rush back. I had just check my mail to be sure I didn't have anything important. I am sorry is this sound harsh but I am in a little of a panic. It upsets me that I would go through so much trouble sending individual logs to thirty some odd people (Which I didn't mind doing and I know those people appreciate it) just to keep from filling up people's mail boxes who didn't want the log then to have someone critize me for simple error is more than I can sit by and say nothing. I have put a lot of time and effort in trying to get together a chat room which I thought some people and I now believe quit a feel will will benefit from. As I said in the second post I was post the chat because my daughter is in the hospital having complications with her pregnacy and I didn't have time ti send out anymore individual post. The first post was sent as a reply to someone that had replied to my original post. I didn't realize she had sent it to the list rather than directly to me. All the others had been directly to me and I just hit reply and copied the chat on the the E-mail and sent it. I am sorry to anyone whose mail box got one too many E-mails than they had wanted but I felt it was worth it to get it to those who would have appreciated it and I didn't want those people to think I was not reply to their request on purpose. Susan Wilkerson P.S. I know I will probably reqret this in five minutes but I am too upset to regret sending this now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op Sonsie, I'd say let's get this offlist, as you said, because it might bore others to tears. I feel as Jim does -- that geography isn't a major factor in putting together such a group. I think other concerns are more important -- such as indexing experience, subject matter specialties, similarities, differences, etc. Count me into the bunch. Anybody else? And thanks, Jim! BTW, where are you located, Jim? Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:53:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Insanity project? Please someone tell me I'm not crazy. I just accepted a 1700-page technical index with a 3-week deadline and temp page numbers. I have to take it... I just want to know I'm not insane. Thanks, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op At 01:32 PM 10/10/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Also, isn't ASI and the Indexer Services book essentially one big co-op for >the national membership? Not really. I envision an organization wherein one or more members act as marketeers, rounding up and assigning work and taking a cut for themselves. To the best of my knowledge, nobody in ASI is doing this for me. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:36:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Insanity project? At 04:53 PM 10/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Please someone tell me I'm not crazy. I just accepted a 1700-page technical >index with a 3-week deadline and temp page numbers. I have to take it... I >just want to know I'm not insane. Gee, I wish I could get as much as three weeks to do 1700 pages. I guess it depends on whether you are familiar with the topic and have some experience. If I were offered a computer topic similar to things I had done before, this schedule wouldn't faze me. I routinely schedule at 100 pages per day, up to 200 under pressure. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:39:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op At 04:50 PM 10/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Sonsie, > >I'd say let's get this offlist, as you said, because it might bore others to >tears. > Uh, I'm glad to see the enthusiasm, but let's not forget who started this thread. If there is off-list discussion, I would like to be the focus of it. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:44:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op At 05:39 PM 10/10/1997 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >Uh, I'm glad to see the enthusiasm, but let's not forget who started this >thread. If there is off-list discussion, I would like to be the focus of >it. Dick, I just sent a note to you and Janet and Jim and Leslie via private email (off-list). Never fear...you're "here." :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:07:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Insanity project? Dick wrote: << If I were offered a computer topic similar to things I had done before, this schedule wouldn't faze me. I routinely schedule at 100 pages per day, up to 200 under pressure. >> Ditto. I figure that 3,000 pages a month is my maximum for the type of material I usually index (this figure may vary for others, depending on the depth/level of the material, openness of the book's format, type size, etc). That's 100 pages a day if you don't take weekends, more, quite a bit more, if you do. Actually, having it be one book, or one project, rather than a few, is better. The intensive "delving into the topic" first 40 or 50 pages only happens once. I find I spend proportionately more time on that first block of pages, getting the structure and vocabulary all in place, than I do with the rest of the book. So the beginning and ending part only happen once, instead of 3 or 4 times if they were 300-400 page books. That's a savings. I can understand your accepting that project, Leslie. That's the way our business goes! You gotta grab it when and if you can. I can't say I'd enjoy indexing 1700 pages in 3 weeks, but I'd do it and do a good job and turn in an index that was of high quality and that I was comfortable with. Good luck! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:16:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Indexing Web sites How would you index this Web site name? The Secret Garden, by Frances Hodgson Burnett I don't want to index it under "The" but can't figure out what else to do with it. This doesn't look right: Secret Garden, The, by Frances Hodgson Burnett Maybe it would look OK if the title were italicized. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:26:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Indexing Web sites At 06:16 PM 10/10/1997 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >How would you index this Web site name? > > The Secret Garden, by Frances Hodgson Burnett > >I don't want to index it under "The" but can't figure out what else to do >with it. This doesn't look right: > > Secret Garden, The, by Frances Hodgson Burnett > >Maybe it would look OK if the title were italicized. What's standard practice (if there IS such a thing) about italicizing website names? I've never seen them italicized, myself. And italicizing it makes it look like it's a reference to the book (or movie) by the same title, rather than a web page. Is your index identifying entries as web pages in some way? If not, I'd sure recommend you do it as "Secret Garden, The..." and put in parens (website) after the name and before the page number. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:42:09 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Insanity project? In-Reply-To: <199710102105.OAA21511@darkwing.uoregon.edu> >Please someone tell me I'm not crazy. I just accepted a 1700-page technical >index with a 3-week deadline and temp page numbers. I have to take it... I >just want to know I'm not insane. >Thanks, >Leslie >Frank Words Indexing and Editing You're crazy, Leslie. But good luck!! Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:57:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Insanity project?-addendum Thanks for all the reassurances that it can be done AND that I am crazy. I forgot to mention (to those of you who regularly index more than this), I am also the full-time mother of a preschooler who indexes at night, during preschool and on weekends. I usually don't take on more than 800 pages a month. So, this does mean 3 weeks of late, late nights for me. On the other hand, it means Christmas will not break me. Leslie Frank Words Editing and Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:10:40 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Hineman, Joe" Subject: Re: Chat Log Posted Twice----Why? [re: Susan Wilkerson posted the AOL chat log. Someone objected that it got posted twice.] Just wanted to say I appreciated getting to see the chat log. First time I've seen one in print. Kind of fun to try to keep the sense on it as some lines get shuffled a little. Thanks, Susan, for your efforts. I'm not on AOL but I still like to hear the news. Joe Hineman in San Diego ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:22:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Indexes in the news In-Reply-To: <199710101623.JAA03600@mx4.u.washington.edu> The book is recommended too. This is the best Word97 discussion I have seen yet. Paul D. Buell (who just brought the book home today and noticed the excellent index too) On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Seth A. Maislin wrote: > Here's a sentence or three from a review of Word 97 Annoyances, authored > by Woody Leonhard, Lee Hudspeth, and T.J. Lee. The reviewer is Frank > McGowan, who writes for WindoWatch. > > Finally, my comments on this excellent book would be incomplete > without a note on its index, which is outstanding. The cross > references make it almost impossible to miss a topic, and they've > avoided entries that start with words like "Using," or "About." > Whoever created this index gets an A+. > > - Seth > > -- > Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN > > O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services > 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street > Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 > (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 > (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com > URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN > Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:26:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Insanity project? In-Reply-To: <199710102059.NAA06417@mx2.u.washington.edu> You are crazy, though. Hope you don't plan to sleep and wait until the very end when the temp page numbers are still temp and all the incomplete chapters come in. Been there in Seattle (Paul D. Buell) On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > Please someone tell me I'm not crazy. I just accepted a 1700-page technical > index with a 3-week deadline and temp page numbers. I have to take it... I > just want to know I'm not insane. > Thanks, > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:29:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Insanity project? In-Reply-To: <199710102207.PAA14139@mx2.u.washington.edu> Ah, but I think a point is being missed here the reference to "temp" pages. That means the writers are still writing and the editors still revising. Even if one has 3 weeks to do the index, it usually comes done to trying to do the final editing in 1-2 days max. For a technical book this is cutting it thin and the results are usually God awful. I am as productive as any but I won't touch this kind of thing with a 45 foot waldo. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: > Dick wrote: << If I were offered a computer topic similar to things I had > done before, this schedule wouldn't faze me. I routinely schedule at 100 > pages per day, up to 200 under pressure. >> > > Ditto. I figure that 3,000 pages a month is my maximum for the type of > material I usually index (this figure may vary for others, depending on the > depth/level of the material, openness of the book's format, type size, etc). > That's 100 pages a day if you don't take weekends, more, quite a bit more, > if you do. Actually, having it be one book, or one project, rather than a > few, is better. The intensive "delving into the topic" first 40 or 50 pages > only happens once. I find I spend proportionately more time on that first > block of pages, getting the structure and vocabulary all in place, than I do > with the rest of the book. So the beginning and ending part only happen > once, instead of 3 or 4 times if they were 300-400 page books. That's a > savings. > > I can understand your accepting that project, Leslie. That's the way our > business goes! You gotta grab it when and if you can. > > I can't say I'd enjoy indexing 1700 pages in 3 weeks, but I'd do it and do a > good job and turn in an index that was of high quality and that I was > comfortable with. > > Good luck! > > Janet Perlman > Southwest Indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:48:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexing Web sites At 03:26 PM 10/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >What's standard practice (if there IS such a thing) about italicizing >website names? It's not so much italicizing a Web site name as it is italicizing a book title that appears in a Web site name. >Is your index identifying entries as web pages in some way? If not, I'd sure >recommend you do it as "Secret Garden, The..." and put in parens (website) >after the name and before the page number. Do you mean: Secret Garden, The, by Frances Hodgson Burnett (Web site) That has the same basic construction (two commas on the same line) that I didn't like. Anyway, the book is entirely Web sites. I am only qualifying entries when the Web site name may cause confusion. For instance, there is a site about Jane Austen. and the site name is Jane Austen. I therefore created these entries: Austen, Jane Jane Austen (Web site) Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Insanity project? At 04:29 PM 10/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >Ah, but I think a point is being missed here the reference to "temp" >pages. That means the writers are still writing and the editors still >revising. Didn't miss it, but it meant something different to me. On my projects, temporary pagination means pagination is stable but chapters are still numbered individually. This is simple to deal with in Cindex. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:00:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Insanity project? In-Reply-To: <9710102353.AA18434@henson.cc.wwu.edu> In the technical world of Puget Sound within which I work this usually means that the book in question is still being written and rewritten. I had an indexing job on site which lasted 6 months and that was still not enough time. Two-thirds of the topics (the most highly technical, for the most part) to index (about 3000, perhaps as many pages) came down in the last six weeks and many of the ones already written had to be revised. Ah, what a joy!! Paul D. Buell On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > At 04:29 PM 10/10/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Ah, but I think a point is being missed here the reference to "temp" > >pages. That means the writers are still writing and the editors still > >revising. > > Didn't miss it, but it meant something different to me. On my projects, > temporary pagination means pagination is stable but chapters are still > numbered individually. This is simple to deal with in Cindex. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:28:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Insanity project? To clear this up, in this case, I am led to believe that it is only the folios that will be changing, something I can take care of rapidly. If this changes..... well, you'll all be able to hear my screams. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:50:58 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: West Coast Co-op --New info Hello all interested parties. The concepts tossed around on the list are causing some exciting conversation thus far. I am concerned about using up too much bandwidth on Index-L at this point. Until we can boil this issue down to some concrete plans early next week, I am offering to compile all "CO-OP" chat and input and re-send it out once daily to the list so we all aren't sending many many messages. If this is appropriate for all, feel free to send me the emails directly regarding "CO-OP" ideas and input. My hope is to send the one compiled email daily with all duplicate cross talk removed. The input so far is very positive in favor of looking farther into this idea! My email is: jimw@transport.com Thanks for the help, and we appologize to those not interested in this topic for plugging up your email pipes :-) Regards, Jim Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:59:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op --New info At 05:50 PM 10/10/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hello all interested parties. > >The concepts tossed around on the list are causing some exciting >conversation thus far. > >I am concerned about using up too much bandwidth on Index-L at this >point. > >Until we can boil this issue down to some concrete plans early next >week, I am offering to compile all "CO-OP" chat and input and re-send >it out once daily to the list so we all aren't sending many many >messages. > With all due respect, folks, I posted to this group because I am working on establishing a co-op. If anyone is to be the focal point of collecting information, I would like it to be me. Co-ops (as I perceive them) have been my pet project for several years and I have tried to establish one here in NC but have failed for lack of a large enough core of members. With the NC Chapter of ASI just having been formed I now have a pool of about 20 people to work with and am trying again. I guess there is no way I can stop anyone else from taking the idea and running with it, but I do feel a certain sense of ownership. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:51:50 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Monica Smersh Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op In-Reply-To: <199710102144.OAA00031@k2.brigadoon.com> I am also interested in the idea of a west coast co-op, and I would be happy to help with any organizing. Please keep mein the loop. Thanks! Monica Smersh msmersh@brigadoon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:57:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Sims Subject: Re: Still no Keywords In a message dated 97-10-09 14:50:46 EDT, you write: > Yes. I am new to ASI (joined Feb. 1997) and didn't remember the > frequency of Keywords. I realized I have only received the > January/February 1997 issue to date. > I sent a letter to ASI to inform them of this error. > > Cheryl McQueen > McIndexer@pwshift.com > > Cheryl, Same thing happened to me. I joined in Feb '97 and had only received the Jan/Feb issue by May, so I emailed ASI and within a week I got the Mar/Apr issue. I received the May thru Aug issue at the end of September, so hopefully you'll hear something soon. Sharon Sims USDA student ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:03:25 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: Co-op Digest #1 CO-OP DIGEST Friday, October 10, 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 1 Messages with no "TO:" showing in the top were addressed to Index-L 1)West Coast Co-op 2)Interest in something similar 3)Newly formedco-op 4)Request for information 5)Why did it die? Can we learn 6)I'llhelp if I can 7)I'm ready, care to help? 8)By-laws or guidelines available? 9)An interesting Idea 10)Geographical limits, Isn't ASI a co-op? 11)Go off list, Geographic limits 12)Go off list, focus of the discussion 13)Richard's vision, Sonsie's idea 14)Off list messages 15)Co-op operations 16)My pet project 17)Will help organize 18) A Reminder =============================================== 1)Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:25:04 -0400 From: Richard Evans Subject: West coast co-op Several years ago I heard of an indexers' co-op on the west coast. This was a confederation of indexers dedicated to finding and distributing work among its members. Once upon a time, I think I had some contact information for them, but now can't find it. Does anyone know of such a group? A contact for the group? Dick Evans ================================================ 2) Date sent:Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:43:16 -0700 From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West coast co-op I have some vague recollection of this myself, Dick, but don't remember who was doing it or where, or how to contact them. But while we're on the subject, is there any interest in doing something similar (if the original co-op is no longer operating)? I'd like to look into it. =Sonsie= ================================================ 3) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:09:55 -0400 To: "Jim Wilson" From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: West coast co-op At 10:10 AM 10/10/97 +0000, you wrote: >Should a co-op not exist for indexers, have you considered >establishing one? Until this moment I hadn't, but perhaps a small >group effort could pay off? I'm eager to pursue this idea. I am considering one among the newly-formed Carolinas Chapter of the ASI. If I got it working, I could expand it to other indexers. Dick ============================================= 4) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:31:46 -0400 (EDT) From:JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: West coast co-op Thanks, Dick, for asking the question about the co-op. I've often thought that a co-op was an interesting idea for those indexers who occasionally have a glut of work, but who do not want to have other indexers working for them, or who do not wish to expand their sole proprietorship into a big business. It is an idea I've wanted to explore more. Any and all info from those who are in such an arrangement or leads on those who know of people who are would be welcomed. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ================================================ 5) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:41:04 -0400 (EDT) From: LLFEdServ@aol.com Subject: Re: West coast co-op I also am on the West Coast (at least for now) and also would be interested in some type of co-op organization. If it has died, maybe we should find out why and what the difficulties were (I have belonged to another professional co-op that withered away). Then perhaps we could learn from the mistakes or learn if it is truly worth it. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ================================================== 6) From: Marsha_Lofthouse@customer-insight.com To: Jimw@mail.transport.com Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:36:42-0600 Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op I don't have any experience with this type of co-op but I am interested. Keep me in mind and keep me posted - I'll help if I can. Marsha in not-quite-the-west-Colorado marsha_lofthouse@customer-insight.com ============================================= 7)From:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM on 10/10/97 06:29:55 AM To: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU cc: (bcc: Marsha Lofthouse/Customer Insight Company/US) Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op Hello Indexers; In my law work as a paralegal assistant, I heve seen basic rules/guidelines for creating a co-op (all I need to do is dig 'em up again). It seems thus far that any existing groups have perhaps withered and died. I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and with help from interested folks, step up to put a group together that can benefit us here out west, or any other area. I don't feel comfortable limiting this to "Just Us Westerners." (my own humble opinion) If you have an interest and/or experience with any form of co-op, I'd like to begin a list of anyone thinking along these lines. Great things come from little beginnings! Jim Wilson Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com =========================================== 8) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:56:57 +0100 To: "Jim Wilson" From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Co-op? >Hi Martha; >Do you have any thoughts regarding this co-op concept for indexers, >or (and I ask in the nicest way) are you too busy to be concerned? > >Since we're both "out here in the woods, I'm interested in promoting >either a west coast, or perhaps a Northwest group to work together. Hi Jim - Don't I WISH I were too busy to be concerned! HA! (Although I do like the ir-regularity of my work). I wonder if there are by-laws or constitution or at least guidelines of previous co-ops to start from, if we have to start from scratch. I'm wondering though how this would be different (although broader, perhaps) than the regional ASI chapters. We could use the chapter in a similar fashion, I should think... What say you? Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ============================================ 9) From: CLandes407@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:16:56 -0400 (EDT) To: jimw@transport.com Subject: Fwd: West Coast Co-op Please add my name to the list. I don't have any experience with this type of co-op, but it sounds like an interesting idea. Cheryl Landes Tabby Cat Communications 4742-42nd Avenue SW, #512 Seattle, WA 98116-4571 (206) 937-2488 clandes407@aol.com ========================================== 10) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:32:43 -0700 From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op At 12:29 PM 10/10/1997 +0000, Jim Wilson wrote: >In my law work as a paralegal assistant, I heve seen basic >rules/guidelines for creating a co-op (all I need to do is dig 'em up >again). This would be great, Jim! >I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and with help from interested folks, >step up to put a group together that can benefit us here out west, or >any other area. I don't feel comfortable limiting this to "Just Us >Westerners." (my own humble opinion) IMO, the main reason to have some sort of geographical limit is convenience of the publishers...and, of course, members--who will probably eventually want to try to meet occasionally. I'm not saying a co-op HAS to be limited to the Western U.S., or some specific tier of states, but in my experience smaller publishers are more leery of using long-distance help than the majors, and the West is peppered with small presses. It's just easier to convince these folks to give out-of-town freelancers a try if you're not also out of state and across the country. Also, isn't ASI and the Indexer Services book essentially one big co-op for the national membership? It seems that way to me...and it seems silly to try to duplicate that effort. I'd prefer to keep it more localized--expecting, of course, that if it catches on, there'd be a Northwest U.S./Canada co-op and a Plains States co-op, and a Northeastern U.S./Canada co-op, Southeastern co-op, Gulf States co-op...you get the drift. >If you have an interest and/or experience with any form of co-op, I'd >like to begin a list of anyone thinking along these lines. Add my email address to the list. Who knows where this will take us, but it might be a start to something good. Maybe we should get together a mailing list and take this off Index-L eventually? Only because I'd be concerned about boring others to tears and taking up too much bandwidth with splinter-group stuff. Whadiya think? =Sonsie= ========================================= 11) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:50:57 -0400 (EDT) From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op Sonsie, I'd say let's get this offlist, as you said, because it might bore others to tears. I feel as Jim does -- that geography isn't a major factor in putting together such a group. I think other concerns are more important -- such as indexing experience, subject matter specialties, similarities, differences, etc. Count me into the bunch. Anybody else? And thanks, Jim! BTW, where are you located, Jim? Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ===================================== 12) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:39:32 -0400 From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op At 04:50 PM 10/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Sonsie, > >I'd say let's get this offlist, as you said, because it might bore >others to tears. > Uh, I'm glad to see the enthusiasm, but let's not forget who started this thread. If there is off-list discussion, I would like to be the focus of it. Dick ========================================= 13) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:39:13 -0700 To: infodex@mindspring.com From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op Copies to: jperlman@aol.com, jimw@mail.transport.com, llfedserv@aol.com At 05:31 PM 10/10/1997 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >Not really. I envision an organization wherein one or more members >act as marketeers, rounding up and assigning work and taking a cut >for themselves. To the best of my knowledge, nobody in ASI is doing >this for me. Hmmm. I agree, that's not what ASI is doing, but then, I hadn't quite thought of a co-op as operating that way, either. I'd thought of a no-fee situation to begin with, where we would recommend other indexers to clients when we couldn't take on a job...passing the work along to people we knew could do it well and had an opening in their schedule. I think a lot of us do this already, informally...I know I do, and I've gotten several referrals that way as well. =Sonsie= ============================================ 14) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:44:35 -0700 From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op At 05:39 PM 10/10/1997 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >Uh, I'm glad to see the enthusiasm, but let's not forget who started >this thread. If there is off-list discussion, I would like to be the >focus of >it. Dick, I just sent a note to you and Janet and Jim and Leslie via private email (off-list). Never fear...you're "here." :-) =Sonsie= ========================================= 15) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:08:58 -0700 To: Richard Evans From: Sonsie Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op Copies to: jperlman@aol.com, jimw@mail.transport.com, llfedserv@aol.com At 05:58 PM 10/10/1997 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >I think most of us do that anyway. I am talking about something less >passive, where the co-op actively seeks work for its members, serving >as a contracting agency that specializes in indexers. > >Prospective members who are established indexers wuold be >grandfathered in. > Newcomers would have to pass a review by the >co-op members. > >I, for one, would be willling to pay a percentage to someone who >could level out my schedule and bring me a steadier, more even flow >of work. As it is now, I have periods of intense activity >interspersed with spells of idleness. This is absolutely an aspect of operations that we should all discuss. It's a really new idea to me, in terms of how I think of a co-op, but I'm willing to explore it further. I took the liberty of forwarding this response to the little co-op list I created. I hope that's all right...since most of us seem to think this belongs off-list and I don't want anybody left out of the loop. =Sonsie= ============================================= 16) Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:59:01 -0400 From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op --New info At 05:50 PM 10/10/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hello all interested parties. > >The concepts tossed around on the list are causing some exciting >conversation thus far. I am concerned about using up too much >bandwidth on Index-L at this point. Until we can boil this issue down >to some concrete plans early next week, I am offering to compile all >"CO-OP" chat and input and re-send it out once daily to the list so >we all aren't sending many many messages. > With all due respect, folks, I posted to this group because I am working on establishing a co-op. If anyone is to be the focal point of collecting information, I would like it to be me. Co-ops (as I perceive them) have been my pet project for several years and I have tried to establish one here in NC but have failed for lack of a large enough core of members. With the NC Chapter of ASI just having been formed I now have a pool of about 20 people to work with and am trying again. I guess there is no way I can stop anyone else from taking the idea and running with it, but I do feel a certain sense of ownership. Dick ======================================= 17)From: Monica Smersh Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 97 19:51:50 PDT I am also interested in the idea of a west coast co-op, and I would be happy to help with any organizing. Please keep mein the loop. Thanks! Monica Smersh msmersh@brigadoon.com ======================================== Please send your co-op related messages ont to the index-l list but privately so we don't plug up the full list. For now, this digest will be posted to the list once each day. end of digest ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:18:55 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Woodruff Subject: Insanity project?- help is nigh In-Reply-To: <876524522.0922748.0@listserv.cuny.edu> Leslie writes: >..I am also the full-time mother of a preschooler who indexes at night, >during preschool and on weekends... Brilliant! I love it! When my kids were preschoolers I never got half this amount of help from them..... -- Karin Woodruff, Leicester, UK. e-mail: woodruff@bison.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:36:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Co-op work group I would like to establish a small work group to continue study on establishing an indexers' co-op. I would like no more than six people (counting myself) to conduct discussions off-list. The group would post periodic progress reports to the list. I believe Jim Wilson has already volunteered to be the collector and digester of the discussion (Jim, correct me if I'm wrong.) That means I need only four more. If you are interested, drop me a note with a summary of what you can contribute. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:58:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Insanity project?- help is nigh At 08:18 AM 10/11/1997 +0100, Woodruff wrote: >>..I am also the full-time mother of a preschooler who indexes at night, >>during preschool and on weekends... > >Brilliant! I love it! When my kids were preschoolers I never got half >this amount of help from them..... This cracked me up! My now-22-year-old was no help whatsoever when he was in preschool. Leslie, tell us how you've worked this miracle--bribery with cookies, or what? :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:03:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Still no Keywords The board will be looking into the problem of getting KeyWords out on a more timely fashion when we meet on November 7. This is an issue that many of us are concerned with. Sandi Schroeder, board member ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:05:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Insanity project?- help is nigh I wish, I truly wish! This cracked me up. This is what happens when you're going insane! No, the truth is, I can't stop him. He indexes day, night, all the time. It's an addiction..... Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:21:36 -0400 Reply-To: c.mccluskey@snet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine McCluskey Subject: Initial contact with publishers Hello Everyone, I'm currently nearing the end of the USDA course and am starting to think about contacting some local publishers. My question is, since I have no "real" experience yet, can I send just a letter and business card or do I have to send a resume too? If I have to send a resume, what information should I include in it? Should I include my previous work experience eventhough it is not directly related (I worked in the securities industry for ten years)? Does anyone know of a book that deals with this type of resume? Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!! Chris McCluskey c.mccluskey@snet.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:50:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Re: Insanity project?-addendum >I am >also the full-time mother of a preschooler who indexes at night, during >preschool and on weekends. Leslie, you've got one really clever preschooler there! I didn't know they were teaching indexing in preschool. ;-) Karen Lane klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:35:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: Co-op work group You wrote: > >I would like to establish a small work group to continue study on >establishing an indexers' co-op. I would like no more than six people >(counting myself) to conduct discussions off-list. The group would post >periodic progress reports to the list. > >I believe Jim Wilson has already volunteered to be the collector and >digester of the discussion (Jim, correct me if I'm wrong.) That means I >need only four more. If you are interested, drop me a note with a summary >of what you can contribute. > >Dick [Evans] > I am extremely interested in the subject of an indexers' coop, and I don't think it should be discussed off-list - at least, not for a while. Many less interesting subjects have been discussed ad nauseam in INDEX-L, around the virtual "watercooler". The coop idea has to do with our livelihood (of us freelancers, anyway), so how could the subject be boring? It doesn't take up excessive bandwidth, IMHO. That said, here's my 5 cents: 1) The discussion got started with a question about a mysterious, lost West Coast co-op. I believe this co-op may be identified as the Berkeley, Calif. organization "editcetera". This is a self-described "nonprofit mutual benefit corporation" consisting of about 80 editorial freelance professionals (not just indexers), who must reside in Northern California. The entrance requirements are stringent. Members pay $20 a year, plus (get this) a 10% commission on jobs obtained through the group. How does it work? Publishers and other sources of work call editcetera with job requirements. An administrative coodinator "consults a database of members' skills, specialties, and availability." The member who best meets the requirements will then call the publisher, and the two parties will agree on fee and schedule. There are bylaws (which I do not have) which set this out in more detail - I am sure these would be informative, but whether they would be a good model is a matter for discussion. Here's the contact information: editcetera 1600 Shattuck Ave Berkeley CA 94709 (510) 849-lll0 (don't everybody call!) 2) There was a similar group in Boston once, called the Word Guild, but I hear that it fell apart. Some say that co-ops are inherently unstable, because, for one thing, freelancers are inherently noncooperative (NOT MY NECESSARILY MY OWN OPINION, be it known). And some "co-ops", I feel, are such only in name, being controlled from the top, not democratically (but perhaps these are the only successful ones!) 3) In my own practice, I sometimes am offered work that I am too busy to handle, or that is not my cup of tea. I then may recommend one or two of my indexer friends to the editor who called. I do this only if I am confident of the indexer's work, and of course, I expect reciprocity. This is a germ of a co-op, but sometimes I have felt I would like it more formalized. 4) I'm interested in forming or finding a co-op in New York City. 5) If this discussion does go "off-list", I'd like to still be able to contribute. I appreciate the summaries of Jim Wilson. Peter Rooney magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:04:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: NYC co-op Peter: I am interested in finding out more about how the proposed co-op for NYC that you described would function. I have not written any published indexes yet and I am still working on the 2nd course given by USDA. Does this disqualify me? Please let me know what I can do to be of any help at all. Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: ASI Complaints Dear ASI members, For those of you operating under the mistaken impression that ASI has a large staff of ready workers able to handle every task we think of, please adjust your perception. ASI is an umbrella under which you can perform tasks for yourself and others. We have one part-time, overworked employee. Everything else must be done by volunteers. If you are not satisfied with how something is being done, please speak to Alexandra about taking on a job. We need volunteers to augment and replenish the supply of people who need a break from trying to tackle the many jobs necessary to keep the organization afloat. Although constructive criticism can be helpful and feedback is encouraged, the best remedy for complaints are YOUR volunteer hours tackling a job. The volunteers in ASI are not just a precious resource to help on special assignments, they (we) are the organization itself. As we used to say, if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. ASI's biggest problem is that 1500 people expect one part-time employee and a handful of volunteers to do everything. Read my lips: Volunteer NOW. I'm sure that Alexandra will be glad to hear from you and will help you put your talents to the best use for yourself and ASI. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 07:52:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Co-op work group At 11:35 PM 10/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >I am extremely interested in the subject of an indexers' coop, and I >don't think it should be discussed off-list - at least, not for a >while. While I can't stop anyone from publically discussing the merits of such a program, I don't feel it is appropriate to openly discuss the details of the particular program I am working on. Hence the off-list group. I will be glad to keep the list posted on progress. Thanks for the pointer to editcetera. That does sound like the group I was thinking of.. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:05:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Book Indexers Chat Don't forget Monday's night chat: 6:30 Pacific, 7:30 Mountain, 8:30 Central, 9:30 Eastern If you need directions to the chat room. E-mail me. I am back home and my daugher is out of the hospital doing fine so far. They were able to stop the labor and are hoping she can go another two and half weeks. If anyone didn't get the chat log from last week and still wants it please E-mail me at: Bookindexr@aol.com Susan Wilkerson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:51:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ Indexers Chat We are planning another ICQ indexers chat for next Saturday, October 18th at: 2:00 Pacific, 3:00 Mountain, 4:00 Pacific and 5:00 Central. This time is for the benifit of those interested in attending that are over seas and those that work out of their homes. Again for those that have not received the previous postings on the ICQ Chat. This is different from the AOL Chat that is for American Online members only. This ICQ Bookindexr Chat allows anyone with any internet provider to participate by just downloading the software from the ICQ web site. There is no charge for the software at present. You can get to the web site via the ICQ Book Indexer's Entrance Page at: http://members.aol.com/bookindexr This entrance page is not for AOL members only. It is a web page that can be accessed by any internet provider. It also has the ICQ chat room # you need to beable to enter the chat room. If you have any problems, please let me know. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:56:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Tortora Subject: Directory Has everyone else gotten their directory? I am still waiting for mine. Sue Tortora Tortora Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Directory Sue, I havn't gotten my either but then I have moved a lot in the last three months. Susan Wilkerson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:04:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Personal names AND menopausal indexers Thanks to all who responded. I saw the word "eclitic" where "enclitic" was clearly written in Mulvaney's book. Do I blame the floaters in my eyes, my lasik surgery, or my post-menopausal little gray cells? (Rhetorical. No replies necessary.) Emily Adelsohn Pasadena, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: ASI Complaints In a message dated 97-10-12 02:40:15 EDT, you write: << For those of you operating under the mistaken impression that ASI has a large staff of ready workers able to handle every task we think of, please adjust your perception. ASI is an umbrella under which you can perform tasks for yourself and others. We have one part-time, overworked employee. Everything else must be done by volunteers. >> While I fully agree with the importance of volunteers to support professional organizations, at some point most thriving organizations recognize that a FULLTIME administrative support staff is needed. And I think that ASI is rapidly approaching that stage, as witnessed by the growing number of complaints about slow service. The ASI board needs to look realistically at what the members expect; and we as members need to decide what we are willing to support with our dues. If we're not going to contribute time, then our dues or payment for administrative services are the only alternatives. I'm quite willing to pay $50 for my Index Locator listing [or whatever the current name is!] since I''ve gotten at least one job as a result of that listing every year. But in exchange for the payment I expect the listing to be CORRECT (which mine was not but I don't want to go into online). And I would be willing to accept a dues increase if it means that higher dues will increase administrative support levels to the point that Keywords usually gets out on schedule, new memberships always get acknowledged promptly, publisher calling/emailing Headquarters for referrals get QUICK responses, and that in general I'm seeing value for the dues paid. I'm NOT criticizing Bonnie; but there are limits to what one PART-TIME person working alone can accomplish. We now return to the previously scheduled index in progress. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:57:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: ASI Complaints In response to Barbara Cohen's earlier posting (on this subject) I resent being called a "problem." (If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.) I haven't complained about ASI at all. And, I agree with Carolyn that perhaps it's time for a full-time person. Nothing against Bonnie. She got me a nice job last year. Suellen On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:26:01 -0400 Carolyn Weaver writes: >In a message dated 97-10-12 02:40:15 EDT, you write: > ><< For those of you operating under the mistaken impression that ASI >has a >large > staff of ready workers able to handle every task we think of, please >adjust > your perception. ASI is an umbrella under which you can perform tasks >for > yourself and others. We have one part-time, overworked employee. >Everything > else must be done by volunteers. >> > >While I fully agree with the importance of volunteers to support >professional >organizations, at some point most thriving organizations recognize >that a >FULLTIME administrative support staff is needed. And I think that ASI >is >rapidly approaching that stage, as witnessed by the growing number of >complaints about slow service. The ASI board needs to look >realistically at >what the members expect; and we as members need to decide what we are >willing >to support with our dues. If we're not going to contribute time, then >our >dues or payment for administrative services are the only alternatives. > I'm >quite willing to pay $50 for my Index Locator listing [or whatever the >current name is!] since I''ve gotten at least one job as a result of >that >listing every year. But in exchange for the payment I expect the >listing to >be CORRECT (which mine was not but I don't want to go into online). >And I >would be willing to accept a dues increase if it means that higher >dues will >increase administrative support levels to the point that Keywords >usually >gets out on schedule, new memberships always get acknowledged >promptly, >publisher calling/emailing Headquarters for referrals get QUICK >responses, >and that in general I'm seeing value for the dues paid. I'm NOT >criticizing >Bonnie; but there are limits to what one PART-TIME person working >alone can >accomplish. > >We now return to the previously scheduled index in progress. > >Carolyn Weaver >Weaver Indexing Service > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:33:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: keeping track of personal (not business) expenses I've just been engaged in the dismal task of trying to balance all the household accounts, and finding a rather large amount of cash just "disappearing," despite our best efforts to track every penny. I try to console myself by saying that it is only about six percent of our take-home income, and at least I know where the other 94 percent went, which is more than most people do. What do other people who take the "track every penny" route consider an acceptable level of uncertainty? And what are the obvious culprits when it comes to money "disappearing" (assuming honesty, of course, no fast women and slow horses)? Gasoline seems likely, for one -- it's easy to forget that one put 20 bucks in the tank on the way home, and you usually don't get a receipt. What else? Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:36:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI Complaints Thank you, Barbara. As a member of the ASI National Board and a committee chair ......... I second the motion. The leadership of ASI is composed of busy people, either full-time freelance indexers, or otherwise full-time employed moonlighting indexers. Everybody is already carrying a full load, professionally, and on top of it they add committee work, personal lives, children, significant others, parents, etc, etc. Not easy! 12 Board members, another half a dozen busy committee chairs and their committee members, bolstered by an overworked administrative assistant -- that's the entire operation. There are many areas of ASI where more hands could help out. I hope everybody will heed the call and volunteer some time and effort if they possibly can. The reality of life for any nonprofit organization is that whatever the organization needs that isn't done by volunteers either has to cost money (for outside help or additional staff on the organization's payroll) or the organization has to choose which services to give and which to cut. If an organization decides not to cut services, then the additional cost will have to be passed on as a dues increase. Think about what you want from ASI and what you are willing to put out for it. It comes right down to that. The ASI Board is aware of the problems brought on by the rapid growth of our organization, and we are considering alternatives to better cope with the tasks at hand. It is impossible to say just which changes are in the wind, but we're working on it! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ASI National Board Member (secretary) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:38:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: keeping track of personal (not business) expenses At 08:33 PM 10/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >I've just been engaged in the dismal task of trying to balance all the >household accounts, and finding a rather large amount of cash just >"disappearing," despite our best efforts to track every penny. I try to >console myself by saying that it is only about six percent of our take-home >income, FWIW, I keep my records in Quicken and categorize everything but cash withdrawals from ATMs. Those cash withdrawals amount to about 6%. I used to try to keep track of every penny, but it just wasn't worth the hassle. I look at that 6% and can make some guesses as to what it went for. I probably spend $80 per month on lunch. Probably $60 a month on movies and associated fast-food meals. When I net out the obvious, there isn't enough left to really worry about. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: keeping track of personal (not business) expenses At 09:38 PM 10/12/1997 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >I used to try to keep track of every penny, but it just wasn't worth the >hassle. I look at that 6% and can make some guesses as to what it went >for. I probably spend $80 per month on lunch. Probably $60 a month on >movies and associated fast-food meals. When I net out the obvious, there >isn't enough left to really worry about. At our house, we call this "walking-around money," and nobody has to account for how they spend their $25 or so a week. We keep track of all the major and obvious expenditures, but we all spend small amounts on personal stuff like lunch out or a new lipstick or a matinee...and I, for one, don't start worrying about it until it gets out of hand. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:08:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Insanity project?-addendum In-Reply-To: <199710102301.SAA02174@beavis.inetdirect.net> >... I am >also the full-time mother of a preschooler who indexes at night, during >preschool and on weekends. ... >Leslie >Frank Words Editing and Indexing Wow! A preschooler who indexes! Isn't there a law against that? ; ) Elsa Kramer Indianapolis 317.253.7752 317.254.0330 fax efk@netdirect.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Insanity project?-addendum All right all you smart guys. Just wait til you see him offering several seminars in Seattle this year. Boy won't you be surprized what preschoolers can do! We'll show you!!!! Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:17:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: personal expenses In a message dated 97-10-13 00:09:39 EDT, Sonsie wrote: >At our house, we call this "walking-around money," and nobody has to account >for how they spend their $25 or so a week. We keep track of all the major >and obvious expenditures, but we all spend small amounts on personal stuff >like lunch out or a new lipstick or a matinee...and I, for one, don't start >worrying about it until it gets out of hand. > I can see this -- but we have been trying to write down every single cup of coffee, and *still* have at least this much money going walkabout. Considering this is in the thousands of dollars per year, I do think it's worth worrying about. It certainly helps me set priorities when I know for certain that I've spent $50 on lattes in an incredibly short time -- especially when I know that there are $50 worth of books (if not $500, or $5,000) that I would really rather have had instead. But obviously not everyone feels this way -- like anything else, it's a question of personal priorities. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:12:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: ASI Complaints At 01:27 AM 10/12/97 -0400, Barbara wrote: >Dear ASI members, > >For those of you operating under the mistaken impression that ASI has a large >staff of ready workers able to handle every task we think of, please adjust >your perception. ASI is an umbrella under which you can perform tasks for >yourself and others. We have one part-time, overworked employee. Everything >else must be done by volunteers. I was in association management before becoming a technical writer. I know how overworked and underappreciated "the staff" can be. I also know that the time comes when an organization must beef up the staffing -- in number of personnel or number of hours or both -- to keep up with the demand for quality work. That costs money, but I would pay higher dues if it were to allow Alexandra to work more hours or hire clerical help. Volunteering only gets us so far -- Alexandra (or whoever is on staff) still has to supervise the volunteers and distribute and check their work. It sounds like we need more of Alexandra and more Alexandras. -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:55:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: Directory error My request to ASI is that they take responsibility for the errors in the Directory and send an apology/corrections list to all who received the Indexer Services Directory. I consider the volunteer issue a separate, but certainly important, issue= =2E ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:47:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: personal expenses As part of learning to live credit-free (debt-free being the goal... not yet achieved) I started writing down, to the penny, every cash transaction. The only way this method works for me is to make sure I write everything down, without exception, AT THE MOMENT I SPEND IT. This usually means stepping aside from the cash register and jotting down the item and its cost right there in the store (or at the movie ticket window, or in the Burger King drive-thru, or wherever I am). It's a habit that took a little time to develop, but was well worth it. It does not work for me to make a mental note, and then record it later; never happens! I use Quicken to track all expenses, business and personal. ATM cash withdrawals are entered as transfers from the checking or savings account (whichever one I took the money out of) into an account called, strangely enough, Cash. The Cash account was balanced daily for about 3 months as I learned the new habits, and then weekly. If I do it less frequently, I tend to get careless on the recording of cash expenses, and then the whole system goes to hell! This may seem like a lot of work for little results, but I needed to get complete control of my spending, and that meant first of all knowing what I'm spending. Having a clear, written record means that my spending plans for future months become easier to figure out--and more accurate--and I can avoid going into debt any further. I'm happy to report that I have not incurred any unsecured debt (that is, credit cards, personal loans without collateral, etc.) since March of this year. For a credit card junkie like me, that's an amazing feat! I highly recommend the book "How to get out of debt, stay out of debt, and live prosperously" by Jerrold Mundis. Here's a link to it in amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0553283960/3028-9274597-528213 It's based on DA concepts (Debtor's Anonymous, a 12-step program for people who have serious spending problems) but the techniques are valid for anyone trying to get a handle on their spending patterns and habits; the book is very practical and simple, without a lot of 12-step jargon. Highly recommend it (no connection between me and amazon.com, Mundis, or DA :-). Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:24:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Directory error Disclaimer: these are general comments, not directed at any particular person or posting. 1) "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" is old radical hippy rhetoric (take it from this old(ish), but still occasionally radical, ex-hippy :-). The nineties version seems to be slogans along the lines of "Think globally, act locally," which is a bit tamer but still gets the point across, though in a less in-your-face kind of way. 2) In a not-for-profit volunteer organization, there is no "they," only "we." If we need to take responsibility for errors in the Locator, let's draft a letter (we have a good editorial board right here on this list), and get volunteers to make and mail copies in small bunches so no one has to eat all the postage costs. I can print and mail 20 copies. First draft, anyone? Additional mailing volunteers? Who is collecting changes and errata right now, and how do we get the list of corrections from that person? Anybody want to volunteer their Web site (I don't have one) for an online correction form for those who are Internet-enabled? I'll be happy to be the mailto address for those forms, and will work on the first draft of the letter if this is something we are actually going to do. 3) If you see a problem, and have an idea for a solution, bring it up and be ready to implement it. Volunteer organizations have no "idea people," just people who act and people who don't. (See also number 2 above :-) 4) Seen on a tee-shirt from ACS (American Chemical Society), North Carolina State student chapter: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate." Ann (writing from the bottom of the test tube) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:14:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301@AOL.COM Subject: Re: personal expenses I did this too -- wrote down every single penny. I also use Quicken and have a Cash account. You have to capture that transaction the instant it happens and pile up those receipts or crib sheets on the keyboard for entering regularly. When this system falls apart, it can fall apart quickly as mine did between July and now. My brain doesn't do basic math easily. Sure I grasp the concepts I was taught, but this brain is wired for other strengths. With a handicap (mild) such as mine, writing everything down is the only thing that works. It sounds like a huge hassle, but as a free lancer, it's what keeps me solvent. I can see how much has gone into my Cash account since July, but I haven't recorded any expenses. That gap is big enough to know I will get back to capturing everything again. Deborah Patton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:46:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: list server for proofreading A friend of mine is interested in proofreading. I wanted to direct her to a list server, if there is one, on that subject. Does anyone know of one? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Co-op: That's all for now I'm sorry that I have not had time to reply individually to the offline messages I have received. I have the people I need for the moment and will post updates as necessary. Thanks to everyone for their interest. To those in the group: I will get a note out to you shortly just to confirm what we are doing. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:17:40 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: Co-op Digest #2 CO-OP DIGEST Mon, October 13,, 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 2 Messages with no "TO:" showing in the top were addressed to Index-L 1)Who Is Co-op open to? 2) ASI Benefits 3) Interested Indexer 4) Ohio Beginner 5) Agreement Echos 6) Add Me to the List 7) Info on other groups 8) NYC Co-op? 9) Interested Indexer 10) More info to come =============================================== 1) From: SSawula@aol.com Date sent: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:20:37 -0400 (EDT) To: jimw@transport.com Subject: CO OP I just want to ask a simple question. I'm just getting ready to be a beginner in indexing. If and when you get this thing rolling will it cater only to experienced indexers or will beginners have an opportunity to get some jobs through this? Or maybe even have an opportunity to do apprenticeships. Steve ========================================== 2) Date sent: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:53:02 +0100 To: "Jim Wilson" From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Co-op? >> I'm >> wondering though how this would be different (although broader, >> perhaps) than the regional ASI chapters. Since I am not yet a >> member, I am in the dark as to any member benefits ASI chapters can/do offer >>members. Do they assist in finding work? I have gotten work from them. A desperate editor called and they gave her a couple of names of indexers in her area, and I was the first one she got hold of who had the time available. The editor both sent me an email message AND called. >Are they influential with publishers to promote ASI indexers? There is an Indexer Locator Directory which publishes a subjects directory (My business name is listed under 15 subjects, and all my information is in the Business Name listing. These magazine sized directories are sent to publishers free of charge. I don't know to how many, but it better be a lot because they took in about $14,000 to do it. Plus any publisher who calls gets a copy, too. >Are you a member? Yep. >What has been the biggest benefit you see to membership? 1) I got a client from their ASI contact. That will probably not happen ever again, but I'll be a member for as long as I index. That was a HUGE benefit and will cover my membership costs for, probably, as long as I live. 2) Key Words is the 6 x yr journal of what's going on in the field and in the chapters. One learns the nuances of the industry there, in informed of the chapter meetings and annual conferences for the whole membership (4 days in North Carolina last year, at least four in Seattle next April). 3) Plus a subscription to the twice yearly English journal: The Indexer, which is (apparently, since I have yet to receive my issues - and about which I have just complained) published twice a year. I anticipate The Indexer, which accepts scholarly papers on indexing subjects (in all categories: library indexing, back of the book indexing, online indexing, free-lance and in-house indexing, etc), to be VERY interesting: Index-L does the HOW very well, but The Indexer should do the WHY very well. 4) Plus the listing (for an extra fee) in the Indexers Locator Directory 5) Plus a Member Directory - many of the members are also on Index-L so I get to see their suggestions, problems, ideas, styles, etc. The folks who post to Index-L are the MVR (Most Valuable Resource) in the industry. I would imagine (but don't actually KNOW) that not all ASI members are on Index-L and not all Index-Lers are members of ASI. >> We could use the chapter in a similar fashion, I should think... >Do you mean to work through ASI in this endeavor, or tailor a co-op >after ASI? I mean 'under ASI's name.' I tend to want to have one main org with many kinds of branches - rather than a bunch of organizations. Granted, one of the limits of this idea may be that folks would have to join ASI to either find out about the co-op or to participate in it. I am also assuming that ASI's charter would allow this idea, and thatthe ASI volunteer board/management is not opposed to it. Like most else that ASI does, it will be run by interested members in return for the pure pleasure of the experience... >Thanks for the input, sorry to dump so many questions back to you! Nah. Good questions. (and I'm not hopelessly attached to any of the suggestions above if the group wishes to do it differently). Martha ========================================== 3) From: JWilson999@aol.com Date sent: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:14:20 -0400 (EDT) To: jimw@transport.com Subject: Co-op List If you're establishing a separate list outside of Index-L, please add me to that list. I'm not yet a full-time indexer, but I'm working in that direction and I'd like to keep plugged into the latest developments. Thanks. ========================================== 4) From: Psvenndex@aol.com Date sent: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:31:16 -0400 (EDT) To: jimw@mail.transport.com Subject: co-op Hi Jim, I am a beginner index (just finished USDA and looking for 1st index) and I don't live in the west, I live in OH. But I am interested in the co-op stuff, especially if a midwest version takes off. So if I am not intruding please include me in any posts. Thanks, Pamela Venneman Lighthouse Indexing Services =========================================== 5) Date sent: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:57:22 -0700 (PDT) To: jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: West coast co-op Copies to: infodex@MINDSPRING.COM At 02:31 PM 10/10/97 -0400, JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: >Thanks, Dick, for asking the question about the co-op. > >I've often thought that a co-op was an interesting idea for those >indexers who occasionally have a glut of work, but who do not want to >have other indexers working for them, or who do not wish to expand >their sole proprietorship into a big business. It is an idea I've >wanted to explore more. > >Any and all info from those who are in such an arrangement or leads >on those who know of people who are would be welcomed. > My sentiments exactly: please count me in. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ================================== 6) Date sent: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:45:17 -0500 (CDT) From: indexer@ix.netcom.com (Linda Sloan) Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op --New info To: jimw@transport.com Please put me on the list for continuing discussions. Thank you, Linda Sloan indexer@ix.netcom.com ==================================== 7) Date sent: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:35:59 -0500 (CDT) From: magnetix@ix.netcom.com (Peter Rooney) Subject: Re: Co-op work group I am extremely interested in the subject of an indexers' coop, and I don't think it should be discussed off-list - at least, not for a while. Many less interesting subjects have been discussed ad nauseam in INDEX-L, around the virtual "watercooler". The coop idea has to do with our livelihood (of us freelancers, anyway), so how could the subject be boring? It doesn't take up excessive bandwidth, IMHO. That said, here's my 5 cents: 1) The discussion got started with a question about a mysterious, lost West Coast co-op. I believe this co-op may be identified as the Berkeley, Calif. organization "editcetera". This is a self-described "nonprofit mutual benefit corporation" consisting of about 80 editorial freelance professionals (not just indexers), who must reside in Northern California. The entrance requirements are stringent. Members pay $20 a year, plus (get this) a 10% commission on jobs obtained through the group. How does it work? Publishers and other sources of work call editcetera with job requirements. An administrative coodinator "consults a database of members' skills, specialties, and availability." The member who best meets the requirements will then call the publisher, and the two parties will agree on fee and schedule. There are bylaws (which I do not have) which set this out in more detail - I am sure these would be informative, but whether they would be a good model is a matter for discussion. Here's the contact information: editcetera 1600 Shattuck Ave Berkeley CA 94709 (510) 849-lll0 (don't everybody call!) 2) There was a similar group in Boston once, called the Word Guild, but I hear that it fell apart. Some say that co-ops are inherently unstable, because, for one thing, freelancers are inherently noncooperative (NOT MY NECESSARILY MY OWN OPINION, be it known). And some "co-ops", I feel, are such only in name, being controlled from the top, not democratically (but perhaps these are the only successful ones!) 3) In my own practice, I sometimes am offered work that I am too busy to handle, or that is not my cup of tea. I then may recommend one or two of my indexer friends to the editor who called. I do this only if I am confident of the indexer's work, and of course, I expect reciprocity. This is a germ of a co-op, but sometimes I have felt I would like it more formalized. 4) I'm interested in forming or finding a co-op in New York City. 5) If this discussion does go "off-list", I'd like to still be able to contribute. I appreciate the summaries of Jim Wilson. Peter Rooney magnetix@ix.netcom.com ====================================== 8) Date sent: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:04:22 -0400 Subject: NYC co-op From: nifkev@juno.com (Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli) Peter: I am interested in finding out more about how the proposed co-op for NYC that you described would function. I have not written any published indexes yet and I am still working on the 2nd course given by USDA. Does this disqualify me? Please let me know what I can do to be of any help at all. Kevin A. Broccoli ============================================= 9) From: JanCW@aol.com Date sent: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:51:57 -0400 (EDT) To: jimw@transport.com Subject: co op stuff Hi Jim, Just caught up on my email reading. Please add my name to the people interested in the co op thing! Jan C. Wright -- Wright Information Indexing Services -- -- jancw@aol.com -- http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm -- "One has two duties: to be worried and not to be worried." -- E. M. Forster ================================================ 10) Date sent: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:26:05 -0400 From: Richard Evans Subject: Co-op: That's all for now I'm sorry that I have not had time to reply individually to the offline messages I have received. I have the people I need for the moment and will post updates as necessary. Thanks to everyone for their interest. To those in the group: I will get a note out to you shortly just to confirm what we are doing. Dick ========================================= End of Digest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:05:12 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Titles of works question Question: In a college text, an introduction to the theatre, many artists are discussed. Some plays are discussed at length, others are briefly noted. It is these briefly noted works that are troubling me. They usually appear with some piece of information about them, either style or genre, but sometimes are mentioned simply as other works by a playwright being discussed. I have been indexing the works as main entries as well as subentries under the author's entry. This has led to a few absurd entries such as (I include whole entries to fully illuminate): 1) O'Neill, Eugene, 212 ^The Emperor Jones^, 212 ^The Great God Brown^, 212 ^The Hairy Ape^, 212 ^Mourning Becomes Electra^, 212 ^Strange Interlude^, 212 etc. 2) Strindberg, August, 166-167, 211 ^The Dream Play^, 211 ^The Father^, 167 ^The Ghost Sonata^, 211 ^Miss Julie^, 167 3) Wilson, August, 57-59, 63-67 ^Fences^, 58, 59 ^Joe Turner's Come and Gone^. See ^Joe Turner's Come and Gone^ ^Ma Rainey's Black Bottom^, 58, 59 ^The Piano Lesson^, 58, 59 ^7 Guitars^, 58, 59 ^Two Trains Running^, 58, 59 Do any of you mix in the same index how you handle these entries? That is, if, for a given author, all of the references are on one or two pages, do you delete the individual artwork listings? What criteria do you then use to decide on whether you will list each title separately under the author? What about number 3), in which the entire text and detailed production analysis of one play warrants its own main entry (and thus a cross-reference from the author's entry), but the rest of the playwright's works are mentioned in the same two page spread? I suppose I've been confronted with something similar before, but never quite under these conditions of a survey of artists. I don't always list all the artwork titles under each artist in other books; however these artworks are the focus of this book. I am unable to find advice in my usual book refs.--anyone have suggestions? Even though my degree is in art, I usually index anthropology and other social sciences, so my experience is limited here. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:47:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Thomas P. Copley" Subject: ANNOUNCE> Fall Web Workshops Still Open The fall '97 Arlington Courseware Web Workshops have been receiving an excellent response. There are still openings left in the workshops scheduled to begin Monday, October 13, Monday, November 3, and Monday, December 1. - MAKE THE LINK WORKSHOP -- This eight-week, e-mail workshop focuses on how to gain maximum advantage from the Web. It emphasizes navigation and searching strategies, as well as introductory HTML authoring. The cost of the workshop is $20. For further information, see the Make the Link Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/links.html - TUNE IN THE NET WORKSHOP -- Also lasting eight weeks, this workshop concentrates on tools for Internet interactivity. It is conducted via e-mail and the World Wide Web (WWW). It introduces the beginner to the basic concepts of interactivity, and assists the more experienced user in making his or her Web pages into a stand-out interactive site. The cost is $40. For additional information, see the Tune In the Net Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/tune.html The cost of both workshops taken together is $55. HOW TO SIGN UP Two Make the Link Workshops are scheduled for this fall: November Session November 3 - December 23 December Session December 1 - January 23 Three Tune In the Net Workshops are scheduled: Session V October 13 - December 6 Session VI November 3 - December 23 Session VII December 1 - January 23 Sign up for ONE session of each workshop only unless you plan to take it more than once. To sign up, please send an e-mail message to the address: majordomo@arlington.com and in the body of the message, include the words: to subscribe to: ------------------ ---------------- subscribe links-nov the November session of Make the Link subscribe links-dec the December session of Make the Link subscribe tune5 Session V of Tune In the Net subscribe tune6 Session VI of Tune In the Net subscribe tune7 Session VII of Tune In the Net This will automatically put you on the mailing list for more information about each workshop, and you will receive an acknowledgment with the particulars about signing up, and unsubscribing, should you decide not to participate. If you have any difficulty with this procedure or fail to receive a response, please send e-mail to the address in the signature line. * A plain ASCII text version is also available. ________________________________________________________________ THOMAS P. COPLEY tcopley@arlington.com Tune In the Net Workshop www.bearfountain.com/arlington/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:05:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Titles of works question For Victoria's situation, I would index each and every play as a main entry and have an entry under each playright of "plays discussed" or "works covered" with those pages. I would follow that subentry with a See individual plays cross reference. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:05:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: list server for proofreading Kevin & Jennifer inquire about a list server for proofreading. I suggest: COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu Thelda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Titles of works question Pam, If (1) the playright and each separate play has its own main entry and (2) all plays are lumped in a subentry, "plays discussed" under the appropriate playright, what is the purpose of an additional subentry, "See titles of individual plays"? It won't add any info and, unless the reader knows the titles to look up, won't help a reader unfamilar with them. I think the situation changes if the number of levels is limited to two or the number of locators is limited to x. Then, a cross-reference to a particular title with categorized subentries is very useful. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:17:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Titles of works question Absolutely valid point. I would expect a number of readers of such a specific work would be familiar with some titles. The CR wouldn't hurt those not knowing the title and could be helpful to the more knowledgeable user. At 09:59 AM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >Pam, > >If (1) the playright and each separate play has its own main entry and (2) >all plays are lumped in a subentry, "plays discussed" under the appropriate >playright, what is the purpose of an additional subentry, "See titles of >individual plays"? It won't add any info and, unless the reader knows the >titles to look up, won't help a reader unfamilar with them. > >I think the situation changes if the number of levels is limited to two or >the number of locators is limited to x. Then, a cross-reference to a >particular title with categorized subentries is very useful. > Diane in Kazoo > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:09:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: HTML/Prep Press Release FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ! Leverage Technologies announces the release of HTML/Prep Version 1.5. HTML/Prep prepares an index for use on the World Wide Web. Using software such as, Cindex from Indexing Research, you can supply the link targets rather than page numbers and HTLM/Prep will generate an HTML document providing the necessary coding around the lowest heading level of each entry to make it a link. New in Version 1.5 is the ability to split a single index file into multiple files: one for each letter of the alphabet. Additionally, letter lists can now be created that provide easier navigation around the index. These can be created for separate frames or pages and/or be embedded in the index file(s). The initial tags of the HTML index files can now be specified for inclusion rather than relying on the basic tags that HTML/Prep generates automatically. HTML/Prep is US$45.00 plus shipping. Currently registered users can upgrade for US$20.00 including shipping. For more information see our web site (below), or call us toll-free at 888-838-1203. Leverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 440-838-1203 http://www.LevTechInc.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:39:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Titles of works question Victoria, As an ex-theater major, I'd say you could probably get away with giving page ranges under the playwright's name (use common sense about whether there are enough page ranges to warrent breaking into subheads), with a cross-reference "see also individual plays". Then list each work as a main head, as you have been doing. You are right that the O'Neill reference looks pretty silly; anyone looking up O'Neill is going to find the names of his plays on that page, assuming they didn't already know them. Ditto Strindberg; though there are a few more pages to look through, it isn't an unreasonable number. For entries like the Wilson entry -- are the "Joe Turner" pages included in the locators listed at the Wilson main head? If so, you could just go with a generic cross-ref to individual plays. If those page numbers are not included at the Wilson main head, you probably want to keep the "Joe Turner" cross-head as well, since as you point out, there is an extensive discussion of that play. Most students using this book will either need to find the playwright, or the plays; as long as you have provided reasonable access to both, you should be fine. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ginette Chandonnet Subject: Medical index Hello all! I would like your opinion on my "indexing pace"! I am currently indexing a medical manual for university students. The book has a little bit more than 700 pages, includes several figures and tables and requires in-depth indexing. Up until now, and based on an 8 hours work schedule, I can only read through a maximum of 60 pages a day. My question is: I am just being slow or is this normal in this context??? I have three weeks to produce the index and I know that I will have to work nights and week-ends to make it. I must say that I was a bit discouraged when I read your answers to Leslie's message concerning her three weeks contract for 1700 pages! Ginette Chandonnet soumah@microtec.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:40:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710141559.IAA29270@mx4.u.washington.edu> There are 1700 pages and then there are 1700 pages. Most computer manuals, for example, have very little on the page and lots of figures taking up considerable space. A 1700 page computer manual may thus be equivalent to about 350 pages of a real book, especially when all the repetition that characterizes such works is taken into account. A medical manual, on the other hand, even if it has lots of space in it, may be far denser and require a more concentrated level of indexing. So a 700 page medical manual may be equivalent to a 500 page book. All in all, three weeks for a work of this sort is short, if anything, since it does not allow much time for the back and forth between the editor and the indexer. My rule for indexing scholarly books is to allow 1 day for indexing each 75 pages, at least as many days for actually compiling the index, editing it and testing. It then goes to the editor who will probably send it back at least once and possibly twice, usually since editors change their minds. This can be over a period of a week or more of multiple weeks. So, for a scholarly book of 300 pages I would ask at least 8 (working) days. But don't expect a product to print until at least 10 days after that, although only a minimal effort is required by the indexer once the copy goes off to the editor unless the editor wants major formatting changes (always include the specific formatting in your work agreement, always) or you have messed up. So, compare likes and likes, not eggs and pears. Paul D. Buell PS: For scholarly books allow much more time if a) you are dealing with someone in a foreign country or b) no hard copy is supplied (getting things to work on screen only takes a LOT of time). On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Ginette Chandonnet wrote: > Hello all! > > I would like your opinion on my "indexing pace"! > > I am currently indexing a medical manual for university students. The book > has a little bit more than 700 pages, includes several figures and tables > and requires in-depth indexing. > > Up until now, and based on an 8 hours work schedule, I can only read > through a maximum of 60 pages a day. My question is: I am just being slow > or is this normal in this context??? I have three weeks to produce the > index and I know that I will have to work nights and week-ends to make it. > > I must say that I was a bit discouraged when I read your answers to > Leslie's message concerning her three weeks contract for 1700 pages! > > > Ginette Chandonnet > soumah@microtec.net > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:53:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710141641.AA10880@world.std.com> Actually, I have an 1100-page computer manual with very few figures and very few code examples!! What bad luck! But I have four weeks to do it. Unfortunately, I also have another project. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:59:04 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "ISKO.conf" Subject: Fifth International ISKO Conference CfP updated and Program Committee The International Society For Knowledge Organization FIFTH INTERNATIONAL ISKO CONFERENCE Call for Papers The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) will conduct its fifth International Conference (ISKO 5) in Lille, France, August 25-29 1998. The theme of the conference is : Structures and Relations in Knowledge Organization The conference will focus on the role of relationships and emergent knowledge structures as represented in the human mind, in information handling tools--including classification schemes, thesauri, and indexing systems-and in computers and intelligent/knowledge-based systems. Papers and panels addressing this theme from any of the following perspectives are invited : 1. Theory of knowledge organization : History, paradigms, philosophy, societal aspects, epistemology, division of the sciences. 2. Disciplinary and interdisciplinary approaches to knowledge organization : Formalization of structures and relations in and across linguistics, semiotics, cognitive sciences, computer science, artificial intelligence, etc. 3. Cognitive approaches to knowledge organization : Conceptual entities and inter-concept relations, category formation, classical and non-classical classifications and their use in information organization and retrieval, concept representation in knowledge-based systems, object-oriented analysis and design, types of relations. 4. Design of information systems : Structure and relations in indexing and retrieval languages, design of controlled vocabularies, terminology building and extraction tools, thesauri and metathesauri, multilingual thesauri, standardization of relationships, problems of compatibility. 5. The Comparative approach Common and particular relationships in different knowledge systems. 6. Linguistics in knowledge organization : Structure and relations in sublanguages/special purpose languages/technical writing, discourse structures and relations, intelligent text processing, natural language processing-based systems and their use in knowledge representation and extraction. 7. New technologies for knowledge organization : Structures and relations in the online environment, applications of classical and non-classical structures to computer-based indexing and retrieval systems, search engines, distributed and multilingual knowledge bases. 8. Conceptual modeling : Data modeling, knowledge modeling, user profile modeling. 9. Universals of structures and relations in knowledge organization. Theoreticians, researchers and practitioners in the field of structures and relations in knowledge organization are invited to submit an abstract of 500 to 1000 words by December 1, 1997, to : Widad Mustafa Elhadi ISKO '5 Conference Chair UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles de Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve d'Ascq France Phone: 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 Fax: 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. An international program committee will select the papers for presentation, and authors will be notified by February 9, 1998. The deadline for submission of papers for the printed conference proceedings will be May 4, 1998. Authors are invited to send three printed copies of their abstracts to the above-mentioned address together with an electronic version which must imperatively be sent in an RTF format to the following e-mail address: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. The file's name should be the author's name and not mention "isko" in order to avoid same name file destruction. The abstract must include the authors name, institution , mailing and electronic addresses . Authors should suggest the topic area for which they consider their paper to be best suited. All papers must be in the English language for publication purposes. French speakers wishing to present their papers in French can do so, although we cannot guarantee that simultaneous translation facilities will be available. Organizers : UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique) Universiti Charles De Gaulle Lille III & The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) Conference Chair Widad Mustafa Elhadi, President of ISKO-France UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles De Gaulle Lille III in co-operation with Hanne Albrechtsen, President of ISKO, The Royal School of Library and Information Science, Copenhagen (Denmark) Ingetraut Dahlberg, Former ISKO President(Germany) Rebecca Green, College of Library and Information Services, University of Maryland (USA ) Program Chairs Jacques Maniez, ISKO-France & Widad Mustafa Elhadi, ISKO-France & UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III, (France) Programme Committee Members : Hanne Albrechtsen, President of ISKO, The Royal School of Library and Information Science - Copenhagen (Denmark) Carol Bean, Lister Hill Center for Biomedical Communications, National Library of Medicine (USA) Clare Beghtol, Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto (Canada) Richard Bouchi, Ecole Nationale Supirieure des Sciences de l'Information et des Bibliothhques (ENSSIB), Lyon (France) Gerhard Budin, University of Vienna (Austria) Stiphane Chaudiron, Dipartement des Sciences de l'Information et de la Communication, Universiti Paris 10 (France) Emilia Curras, Information Science Unit, University of Madrid (Spain) Ingetraut Dahlberg, Former ISKO President (Germany) Raya Fidel, University of Washington (USA) Christian Fluhr, Direction de l'Information Scientifique & Technique (DIST-CEA), Saclay (France) Robert Fugmann, ISKO (Germany ) Francisco Javier Garcma Marco, Departamento de Biblioteconomma y Documentacisn, Facultad de Filosofma y Letras, Universidad de Zaragoza (Spain) Winfried Gvdert, Fachhochschule Koeln, Fachbereich Bibliotheks- u. Informationswesen Cologne (Germany) Rebecca Green, College of Library and Information Services, University of Maryland (USA ) Roland Hjerppe, LIBLAB Dept. of Computer and Information Science, Linkvping University (Sweden) Birger Hjorland, The Royal School of Library and Information Science, Copenhagen (Denmark) Yves Jeanneret, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (France) Barbara H. Kwasnik, School of Information Studies, Syracuse University (USA.) Girard Losfeld, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (France) I. C. Mcllwaine, School of Library, Archive & Information Studies, University College London (United Kingdom) Jean-Guy Meunier, Laboratoire d'Analyse Cognitive de l'Information, Universiti du Quibec ` Montrial (Canada) Joan S. Mitchell, OCLC Forest Press, Washington DC (USA) Gigliola Negrini, Consiglio Nazionale Delle Ricerche, Rome (Italy) Hope Olson, Scholl of Library and Information Science, University of Alberta (Canada) Annelise Pejtersen, System Analysis Department, Risx National Laboratory (Denmark) Steven A. Pollitt, Department of Telematics, School of Computing & Mathematics, University of Huddersfield (United Kingdom) Gerhard Riesthuis, Department for Book and Information Science, University of Amsterdam.(Netherlands) M. P. Satija, Department of Library Science, GND University, Amritsar (India ) Paul Solomon, School of Information & Library Science, University of North Carolina (USA) Nancy Willamson, Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto (Canada) Local Arrangement Committee Members : Annette Biguin, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Jirtme Bertonhche, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Danihle Degez, ISKO-France and D & G (Paris) Sylvie Dalbin, ATD (Paris) Madjid Ihadjadene, ENSSIB (Lyon) Christophe Jouis, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Jacques Maniez, ISKO-France (Dijon) ***************************************************************** Widad Mustafa Elhadi UFR IDIST Universite Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 France BP 149 59653 Villeneuve d'ASCQ Tel : 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 fax : 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail : mustafa@univ-lille3.fr ISKO '5 e-mail : isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:09:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottie Young Subject: Resources for pricing services Hi, My name is Ottie Young and I'm new to this list. I would like information on how to price indexing, abstracting etc. services. I suspect that the price is dependent on location and availability of comparable services. I'm in the Midwest. I would appreciate any help that you can give me. Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Celia McCoy Subject: Re: Medical index Sarah, I'll take that index off your hands if you don't want it! Celia At 12:53 PM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >Actually, I have an 1100-page computer manual with very few figures and >very few code examples!! What bad luck! But I have four weeks to do it. >Unfortunately, I also have another project. > >Sarah > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:33:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Medical index At 11:43 AM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Up until now, and based on an 8 hours work schedule, I can only read >through a maximum of 60 pages a day. My question is: I am just being slow >or is this normal in this context??? I have three weeks to produce the >index and I know that I will have to work nights and week-ends to make it. > I depends heavily on the density of the material, but for run-if-the-mill computer books I estimate 60 pages per *hour* for reading and markup. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:53:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Medical index I'm a moonlighting medical indexer who customarily (unless I take annual leave) has no more than 12-15 hours/week for indexing. I tell clients that I need a week per 200 pages of text for the clinical and research-level materials that I index most often; my speed is normally 6-10 pages an hour depending on the density of the material. (And yes, I do occasionally get up to 20pp or more per hour--but not often.) So I'm intensely jealous of anyone who can work faster than that; but for me it's just not realistic. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service In a message dated 97-10-14 11:47:47 EDT, you write: << Up until now, and based on an 8 hours work schedule, I can only read through a maximum of 60 pages a day. My question is: I am just being slow or is this normal in this context??? I have three weeks to produce the index and I know that I will have to work nights and week-ends to make it. I must say that I was a bit discouraged when I read your answers to Leslie's message concerning her three weeks contract for 1700 pages! >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:33:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710141759.KAA15612@mx2.u.washington.edu> Just try going at that rate with a complex, advanced-level programming manual, however. It's all relative. Also, if I went that fast with a scholarly text I would miss half of it. It is usually necessary to read the text carefully before even beginning indexing. Paul D. Buell On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > At 11:43 AM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Up until now, and based on an 8 hours work schedule, I can only read > >through a maximum of 60 pages a day. My question is: I am just being slow > >or is this normal in this context??? I have three weeks to produce the > >index and I know that I will have to work nights and week-ends to make it. > > > > I depends heavily on the density of the material, but for run-if-the-mill > computer books I estimate 60 pages per *hour* for reading and markup. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:41:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Medical index At 12:33 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >Just try going at that rate with a complex, advanced-level programming >manual, however. It's all relative. I thought I said that. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: Medical index At 11:43 AM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Up until now, and based on an 8 hours work schedule, I can only read >through a maximum of 60 pages a day. My question is: I am just being slow >or is this normal in this context??? I have three weeks to produce the >index and I know that I will have to work nights and week-ends to make it. > Your speed will vary quite a bit depending on your indexing methods and (of course) your familiarity with the topic. I average about 80-100 pages a day for embedded indexing in Word; about 120-150 pages a day for embedded indexing in PageMaker. I'm sure the average is different if you're working with a program like Cindex or Macrex. Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Medical index In a message dated 97-10-14 13:41:51 EDT, you write: << I depends heavily on the density of the material, but for run-if-the-mill computer books I estimate 60 pages per *hour* for reading and markup. >> That's incredible. I'm the fastest reader I know, and I couldn't index 60 pages per hour for *any* subject. Admittedly, I input as I index, but I'd be reluctant to skim that fast for fear of missing things. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:57:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Medical index At 05:24 PM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote: > I depends heavily on the density of the material, but for run-if-the-mill > computer books I estimate 60 pages per *hour* for reading and markup. > >> > >That's incredible. I'm the fastest reader I know, and I couldn't index 60 >pages per hour for *any* subject. Admittedly, I input as I index, but I'd be >reluctant to skim that fast for fear of missing things. I can't index that fast either. That's just the reading and markup. Total average for a project is closer to 20 pages per hour or less. I'm also talking about computer books that are often more white space than text. They are well-organized and very granular -- usually a paragraph or two per heading. Headings are the key to contents. It is not unreasonable to do a book mostly from headings. Also, the books I work on have a life expectancy of about six months and the indexes are created under the tightest of schedules. There is a tradeoff between geting the job done on time and ensuring that I haven't missed *anything*. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:35:19 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Latest version of Access 'front end' to Macrex available The latest version of my Access database 'front-end' to Macrex can be downloaded from my Web site at http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal The program provides Windows features like buttons and text fields to speed up data entry in a simple index. The resulting index is saved as a Macrex backup file and can be loaded into Macrex for final sorting and merging operations. The program has embedded help captions and should be largely self-explanatory. For those people already using a copy, I have made several improvements. New users will need to have Microsoft Access 95 (or 97?) installed. Note that this is beta software and no responsibility is taken by the author for any consequences of its use. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Medical index LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 97-10-14 13:41:51 EDT, you write: > > << > I depends heavily on the density of the material, but for run-if-the-mill > computer books I estimate 60 pages per *hour* for reading and markup. > >> > > That's incredible. I'm the fastest reader I know, and I couldn't index 60 > pages per hour for *any* subject. Admittedly, I input as I index, but I'd be > reluctant to skim that fast for fear of missing things. For me, a lot of this speed has to do with how familiar the subject is. And, as Dick said, how dense the info is. By the time I'm indexing my 50th Netscape book, I have a pretty good idea of what is being said, and what's important, and 60+ pages an hour is very reasonable for reading -- definitely *not* skimming -- and marking with highlighter in hand. This week I'm trying something new: reading while sitting at the keyboard, and inputting entries without highlighting the page proofs. That is, inputting index entries on the first read-through. I'm also doing a complete edit on each chapter as I finish it. Before today, my usual pattern has been: 1. Read and highlight the whole book (30-60 pages per hour, depending on information density and subject matter) 2. Input all index entries without any cross-posting and editing (about 20-30 pages per hour for this type of book) 3. Edit all chapters, one at a time, doing cross-postings and such. (probably 30-40 pages per hour, depending on density) 4. Combine all chapter indexes into one big index and do final edit, clean-up, etc. 5. Spell check, page-number check, final formatting. Today I did 6 chapters (72 pages) in about 5 hours. So, that's close to 15 pages an hour for reading, entering, cross-posting, spell-checking, and editing, all in one pass through the book. Hmmm. I feel naked without a highlighter in my hand, but it does seem to have shaved off a bunch of time. I don't think I would be comfortable doing this if I didn't know the material quite well. Leslie, is 15 pages/hour anywhere near what you do? I have nothing to compare this to! Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:58:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710141957.MAA06614@mx3.u.washington.edu> I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem credible. Paul D. buell On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > At 12:33 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Just try going at that rate with a complex, advanced-level programming > >manual, however. It's all relative. > > I thought I said that. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:21:54 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Titles of works question In-Reply-To: <199710141544.IAA20260@pacific.net> Kara wrote: >As an ex-theater major, I'd say you could probably get away with giving >page ranges under the playwright's name (use common sense about whether >there are enough page ranges to warrent breaking into subheads), with a >cross-reference "see also individual plays". This is also what I had understood Pam to be suggesting. This sounds reasonable, and is my impulse as well. The question then becomes, in cases where the author and play are not necessarily discussed on the same page, or there is otherwise not excessive overlap, 1) do I retain the titles as subentries under the author in the interest of full information (and as suggested by Chicago?) Or 2) do I then handle all authors the same, that is, only break out titles where there is extensive discussion elsewhere (i.e., insert a cross reference to another main entry)? Or 3) should I make a judgment about how substantive the discussion is and break out those titles (thus leaving some titles, which are mentioned but not discussed, unilluminated under the author)? This is really the difficulty I experience--the assymetry in handling like material. Obviously, the easiest thing to do would be to handle all authors as per Kara and Pam's advice and as per 2) above. I have a strong internal imperative to handle like material in like ways, and it is difficult for me to do otherwise. This may perhaps be my biggest issue in indexing. Thanks for all input-- Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:56:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Medical index At 03:58 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much >less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem >credible. Paul D. buell Sigh. I specifically said run-of-the-mill books. Next time you are in Raleigh, you are welcome to watch. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:37:34 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Titles of works question >From Christine Headley I'd say, as the author hasn't treated the different works in 'like ways' - i.e. has written about some just under playwright and some separately - you need not impose that structure on the index. In the circumstances, I would go for option 3. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:27:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710142356.QAA02114@mx5.u.washington.edu> Dick: I will. By advanced-level programming I think of something like a COM text; dense stuff. Paul On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > At 03:58 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much > >less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem > >credible. Paul D. buell > > Sigh. I specifically said run-of-the-mill books. Next time you are in > Raleigh, you are welcome to watch. > > Dick >