From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 25-NOV-1997 21:00:32.15 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9710C" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:31:41 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9710C" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 03:34:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: more re personal finance In a message dated 97-10-14 13:31:31 EDT, Ann Norcross writes: >I use Quicken to track all expenses, business and personal. ATM cash >withdrawals are entered as transfers from the checking or savings >account (whichever one I took the money out of) into an account >called, strangely enough, Cash. The Cash account was balanced daily >for about 3 months as I learned the new habits, and then weekly. If I >do it less frequently, I tend to get careless on the recording of cash >expenses, and then the whole system goes to hell! This is exactly what I do, except that I've never been able to make it daily -- the receipts and notes pile up in an envelope for a couple of weeks. The actual reconciliation with what I have in my wallet and what my husband has in his wallet has been happening about every six months. I would encourage anyone who tries this to simply ACCEPT the fact that a certain amount of money got spent who-knows-where, adjust the account accordingly, and KEEP AT IT. As I said before, better to know where 94% of the money went than not to know where any of it went. Personally I would actually find it more difficult to have a separate "allowance" for things that aren't tracked, especially as I pay cash for many things (such as yard sale purchases) that I do want to track carefully. Far easier to keep track of everything. I think we're going to have to start keeping expense notebooks and reconciling more frequently. I've also started using debit cards at the supermarket so that I know the grocery bills will be double-checked, and I don't have to keep as much cash in my wallet (hence fewer impulse buys). I may mention (since everyone else is recommending their favorite advice books) that Amy Dacyczyn's Tightwad Gazette books have made a big difference to our lives. We didn't have debts, thank God, but we did have the problem of not being at all clear where our money was going. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:19:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Medical index P. Buell wrote: > > I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much > less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem > credible. Paul D. buell Calling me a liar won't make me read any slower. When you are in Raleigh, and get tired of watching Dick read, come on over and watch me read. It won't be very interesting; just lots of pages turning and the smell of highlighters. And again, since the point seems to be missed: I'm talking about average or introductory information, not advanced programming; reading and highlighting, not typing or writing index entries. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Medical index I probably index as fast as Richard. I know that I process several hundred pages a day always. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:04:00 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: medical index I probably shouldn't brag, but I can index 500 pages an hour with one eye closed and using only my left hand. Let's face it -- indexing speed varies with the topic being indexed, the tools being used, and the deadlines being imposed. I don't think that any hourly rate could be quoted as being representative. If this thread is to continue, perhaps we could try to nudge it in more productive directions. John R. Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:31:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: just wondering about expense tracking I am very much not good at personal finances but I'm wondering why those of you who keep such detailed accounts of your expenditures do it, and how does it help you? Should I try to do it (I cringe at the thought) and why? Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:13:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: more re personal finance My solution to the problem of not knowing where my money goes is this: I write checks for almost everything. That way you don't have to remember so much; you have an automatic record. It is not convenient, however. I would *like* to keep track of where the cash goes, but it took me two years to train my husband to write down the checks he writes and to get receipts for fuel! Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:16:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Resources for pricing services >>My name is Ottie Young and I'm new to this list. I would like information on how to price indexing, abstracting etc. services. I suspect that the price is dependent on location and availability of comparable services. I'm in the Midwest. I would appreciate any help that you can give me. Thanks<< The American Society of Indexers recently published a survey which indicates a wide range of pricing for indexing services. (Abstracting is not mentioned.) More indexers charge by the page than by any other method. The per page rate ranges from less than $2 per page up to around $7. More than half the indexers responding to the survey charge between $2.50 and $3.50 per page. That said, there are lots of factors to consider. After a while you might find that 100 pages of a book from Publisher A take longer to index than 200 pages from a book by Publisher B. With experience you will learn what works best for you. One thing that should not be a factor is location. An indexer in California can work for a publisher in Maine just as easily as for one in Oregon. Finally, longevity of indexing career also bears on indexer incomes. If you have a choice in the matter, don't give up your day job while learning how to index. Best of luck and keep the list posted as to your progress. Craig Brown ===================================== The Last Word Indexing (314)352-9094 lastword@i1.net ===================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:24:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: Medical index Maybe cranky people should take a "hiatus" from Index-L. I've got enough of them around me the likes of whom I can do nothing about. Getting crankier and more self-righteous by the minute, Julie Technical Writer III Service Publications and Training Silicon Graphics, Inc. 1201 Charleston Rd. Mountain View, CA 94039 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:39:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: oy vey I think we've discussed this before, but I'm doing a book on Judaism with tons of indented quotes that start on one page, and finish on the next, with the person quoted at the end. When I cite that person, what do I do about the page range? The guy doesn't show up until p. 10 for example, but the reference to him begins on page 9. Thanks in advance. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:49:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Medical index Ya know, folks, indexing speed is really dependent on the type of material you're indexing. I think we've been comparing apples and oranges. There's no way that indexing a medical textbook, in large format, 8 point type, double column, chock full of information -- and entries -- will time out the same as a high school history textbook, or as the 52nd Netscape book you've done, or a cookbook, etc, etc. The number of entries in the medical text can be as high as 15 entries per page. You won't be getting anywhere near that in a cookbook, or a textbook. Format too. I've worked on small format books designed to fit in a doctor's lab coat pocket (really small), and on coffee table sized books. A page isn't always a page, if you know what I mean. So let's realize that these numbers being thrown around about pages per hour, or day, that an indexer can work on, is all relative to the material -- it's level, it's complexity, etc -- , and also depends on format, time allowed by the client for the job and many other variables, including book format and type size. In order to compare, you need to compare like things. The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is experience of the indexer. There's no doubt in my mind that the more one indexes, the faster one gets -- up to a point. Or to put it differently, new indexers work much more slowly than those of us who have been reading and indexing for many years. It comes with experience. Let's all be friends now. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:16:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: oy vey Rachel, You're dealing with quoted material, so I think you have to include both pages in the page range. I don't know of any brilliant way to solve the problem of the author's name not appearing on the first page of the range, but if you have a range, the reader should be bright enough to check the second page in the range and realize that the name refers to the quote. (If not, the reader may not be up to reading this text anyway! ) Hope that helps. I look forward to seeing other ideas, since this is a problem I've come across a number of times as well. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ---------- Rachel Rice wrote: > I think we've discussed this before, but I'm doing a book on Judaism with > tons of indented quotes that start on one page, and finish on the next, > with the person quoted at the end. When I cite that person, what do I do > about the page range? The guy doesn't show up until p. 10 for example, but > the reference to him begins on page 9. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:20:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710151327.GAA20195@mx5.u.washington.edu> Not calling you a liar, just asking for clarification which I now have. All of this shows again that members of the list mean different things when they quote speeds, etc. For me, how many pages I can do in a given time means completed index entries for those pages, ready to edit. Yes, indeed, one can go very fast indeed just marking entries and some books go faster than others. I am reading a book on the Microsoft Foundation Classes that could probably be indexed very rapidly, as Ann and others have indicated. Paul D. Buell On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Ann Norcross wrote: > P. Buell wrote: > > > > I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much > > less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem > > credible. Paul D. buell > > Calling me a liar won't make me read any slower. When you are in > Raleigh, and get tired of watching Dick read, come on over and watch > me read. It won't be very interesting; just lots of pages turning and > the smell of highlighters. And again, since the point seems to be > missed: I'm talking about average or introductory information, not > advanced programming; reading and highlighting, not typing or writing > index entries. > > Ann > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:29:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: laptop use/recommendations? Hey everyone, I am about to purchase a laptop. I'm limited in funds, so I need to get a low-end laptop, but I need to make myself more portable (like indexing at the park while son plays, etc.:D). Can any of you who use laptops recommend some. I can't seem to find a lot of consumer information on the less expensive ones. Thanks, Leslie Frank Words ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:43:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: well I'm procrasting For those of you who have moved, what do you do about assignments interefering with the move, or assignments that come in at the time you're about to pack or leave, and the time you need to unpack and get settled? Also how do you notify your companies? Just a note with the change of address? A phone call? Etc. I'm moving to Vermont some time in the next 2 months. If anyone lives in the Brattleboro area I'd love to talk to you. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:57:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301@AOL.COM Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? I went with a used one. Granted I don't know a darn thing about batteries for these things and should learn (which is partly what taking it to the park is about), but the first one I got was a 286 DOS machine with a 20 mg hard drive. That was fine until I wanted to go to the ASI annual meeting and still have my email. I traded it in -- we have a terrific used computer store here in Baltimore -- for a 486 Compaq with a 200 mg hard drive (only 25 mg free due to all the games and whatnot on it) and a modem. After a good purging (but leaving WordPerfect on it), I installed Cindex and it works great. Paid $800 for the second one which included a carrying case and power cord. It has more than I need, but it'll work fine for a long time. I also use it as my backup. Indexing software doesn't require much hardware. Go with less complex and used. Hope this helps, Deborah Deborah Patton, Indexer Baltimore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:43:30 MST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Running Bentley Subject: Re: well I'm procrasting Also, how about keeping clients after the move? Some of my clients are local and I am concerned that if/when I move I will not be able to retain them (because of the convience of delivering work, etc.) Any comments, experience? Thanks. Linda Running Bentley lbentley@denver.lib.co.us ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: well I'm procrasting Author: "Indexer's Discussion Group" at INET Date: 10/15/97 10:10 AM For those of you who have moved, what do you do about assignments interefering with the move, or assignments that come in at the time you're about to pack or leave, and the time you need to unpack and get settled? Also how do you notify your companies? Just a note with the change of address? A phone call? Etc. I'm moving to Vermont some time in the next 2 months. If anyone lives in the Brattleboro area I'd love to talk to you. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:51:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? Passed on from a friend who uses a laptop as an essential part of her business...if you ever think you will be using this machine away from civilization and/or electricity, pay close attention to battery life (it can vary from 2 hours to well over 8) and be sure to have a second battery that you can keep charged up for emergencies. As Deborah points out, indexing software is very undemanding of either disk space or megs of RAM. You don't need the hottest, latest machine if you're going to be using it predominantly for indexing. I did discover that WP 8.0 takes a LOT of disk space, however...so some word processing applications may require more hard drive space than you might expect. And I use WP for index cleanup quite often. Another point...if it were me, I'd opt for a slightly heavier machine in order to have a full-size keyboard. Some of the very lightest, most compact laptops have a 90% keyboard size, which, with my large hands and fast typing speed, would spell disaster. But this is something you'd probably want to test for yourself before you buy. We take frequent short trips in an RV, to places way out in the boonies, so for me, a laptop can be larger and heavier and I wouldn't mind. But battery power would be essential. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:55:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? Leslie, One rider to Deborah Patton's comments (with which I wholeheartedly agree -- I'm planning to get a used one pretty soon myself.) Do consider whether you may need or want a CD-ROM drive for checking names, spelling, etc. This matters little if you aren't going far from home, since you can check it later. If you plan to take the laptop on trips, however, this could become a factor. You have to weigh how much you will need to use the laptop near and at home vs. how much travelling you are likely to do (and whether you may need to take an index along on the trip!) I'd say that a laptop could be *very* useful for indexing parents, for the very reason you mentioned. Not only does it give more freedom to index while your child is playing outside, it also give you more freedom within the house. I'm reluctant to leave my three-year-old unattended in the living room while I type away in the study at the other end of the house -- at least not for long. Once I have a laptop, I can sit in the livingroom with her while she plays. (Not to mention the benefits of adding a second computer to this single-computer household with one pint-size and two adult computer users!) Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:05:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: laptop question Something else to consider when buying computers, since memory is not the only game in town when it comes to indexing: I just want to mention that I recently acquired my son's Pentium so that he could get a Compaq laptop with all the latest bells and whistles. I also have a 486 that is about 3 years old. I decided to use the Pentium for my major indexing projects and put CINDEX on it. After doing an index with about 4000 records, and sorting in different ways, etc., like crazy, I am sold on the idea of speed being almost more important than memory for indexing (I also have a Zip drive for putting extra stuff on). I cannot believe how much faster writing to disk, sorting, and other functions go on the Pentium. I mean, I used to be able to get up and get a cup of coffee and go get the mail while CINDEX was writing to a:\ on the 486 (depending on how big the file was, of course; I could often still sit there looking at the screen waiting for the save to finish when I got back!). Sooo...considering that time is money...maybe computer speed should be a factor, too, when you are looking at computers to buy! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:09:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? I was close to making the same request, with additional information requests about possible "used" units of pc, 386 or more that might also be pluggable to a solar power unit. In other words, are there really good older laptops, that would be bargains? At 11:29 AM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hey everyone, >I am about to purchase a laptop. I'm limited in funds, so I need to get a >low-end laptop, but I need to make myself more portable (like indexing at the >park while son plays, etc.:D). Can any of you who use laptops recommend some. >I can't seem to find a lot of consumer information on the less expensive >ones. >Thanks, >Leslie >Frank Words > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:08:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: indexing co-op My question is: what about part-time indexers? I indexed for years while working full time (and sometimes more) as a librarian. This year I have started my own business in which indexing is one of four services I provide. Would it make sense to be in a co-op? Would the obligations be t= he same as for full-time people? In interested in the concept in any case. I= f I'm not too late to join in, please include me in the discussion group. = ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:58:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: CD-ROM resources At 01:55 PM 10/15/97 -0400, Kara Pekar wrote: >Leslie, >. . . Do consider whether you may need or want a CD-ROM drive for checking names, >spelling, etc. . . . I don't use any CD-ROM resources in my indexing work, but would like to know which ones others find are good enough to rely upon or even to swear by. Thanks, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:01:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: laptop question In-Reply-To: <199710151807.LAA22520@mx3.u.washington.edu> Speed just goes so far, memory is very important too. I have a desktop Cyrix 686 90. When I went from 8 to 32 MB my system speeded up two or three fold. Since I use a compiler on my machine, I suspect that I will see a further increase in speed when I got up to 64MB shortly. Another consideration is a faster harddrive. Mine is slow, slow, slow. However, motherboard design limitations limit the gain here but I can still improve things. Motherboard design limitations also limited the extent one can use a fast CPU. A fast CPU but a Model T motherboard design will slow things down considerably. Another speed factor is operating system. Win95 clunks, Win NT is better and best of all, for me, is my LINUX system. Computer makers try to convince us that MHz are a way of making comparison. Actually, it means very little if the rest of your system is slow. Paul D. Buell PS: I avoid laptops like the plague. My fingers are too big and they are too expensive for what they do. The best I have seen are Mac Powerbooks, however. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:16:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: CD-ROM resources I use StedmansPlus Medical Spellchecker (CD-ROM) in my Word 7.0 program, plus I also use Stedman's Electronic Medical Dictionary (CD-ROM), as well as Quick Look Electronic Drug Reference (not a CD-ROM), also from Stedman's. (I also have a monthly subscription to the online version of Encyclopedia Britannica, which comes in handy oftentimes for verifying names, etc. Most of the time I just use my ever-increasing print reference library that is just inches away from my desk; for example, several times today I consulted MeSH, Dorland's, and Firkin and Whitworth's Dictionary of Medical Eponyms.) At 11:58 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Michael Brackney wrote: > >I don't use any CD-ROM resources in my indexing work, but would like to know >which ones others find are good enough to rely upon or even to swear by. > >Thanks, > >Michael > >Brackney Indexing Service >134 Kathleen Way >Grass Valley, CA 95945 >916 272-7088 > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:32:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Medical index In a message dated 97-10-15 06:46:15 EDT, you write: << Leslie, is 15 pages/hour anywhere near what you do? I have nothing to compare this to! >> Yes, as I breathe a sigh of relief! It is much closer to what I do. I average between 10 and 20 pages an hour doing all that. I input without marking, as you did, edit as I go along (often to make sure I'm conforming to length expectations/demands), etc., with final checks and sweep-through edits at the end. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: laptop question In-Reply-To: <199710152004.PAA19916@beavis.inetdirect.net> >PS: I avoid laptops like the plague. My fingers are too big and they are >too expensive for what they do. The best I have seen are Mac Powerbooks, >however. They *are* the best! But they're not cheap. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ...................................... "Men have never fully used [their] powers to advance the good in life, because they have waited upon some power external to themselves and to nature to do the work they are responsible for doing." -- John Dewey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:28:49 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? In-Reply-To: <199710151802.LAA23455@darkwing.uoregon.edu> >Passed on from a friend who uses a laptop as an essential part of her >business...if you ever think you will be using this machine away from >civilization and/or electricity, pay close attention to battery life (it can >vary from 2 hours to well over 8) and be sure to have a second battery that >you can keep charged up for emergencies. I also understand that some batteries MUST be used up completely before being recharged. To recharge that kind of battery with only 60% of the previous charge used up means that the battery will thereafter only recharge to 40% of its potential. I've been told this has to do with its 'memory'... Correct me if I am wrong, or jabbering about antiques. ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:50:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: laptop use-Thanks Thank you all for your speedy responses. It seems we are all moving quickly into the new technologies. You have all given great advice. If anyone has any more suggestions, I'm still listening. Leslie Frank Words ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:08:47 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Titles of works question In-Reply-To: <199710150043.RAA21954@pacific.net> Christine wrote: >I'd say, as the author hasn't treated the different works in 'like ways' >- i.e. has written about some just under playwright and some separately >- you need not impose that structure on the index. In the >circumstances, I would go for option 3. Yes, I realized that what I was trying to do was make the absurd examples fit with a structure I'd developed, but what I need to do is alter the structure. So be it. Thanks all-- Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:20:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Titles of works question In-Reply-To: <199710150430.XAA24006@mixcom.mixcom.com> Victoria, my clients have wanted me to do just what you've done here. The only thing I do a little differently is the cross-ref. I'd do this: Wilson, August, 57-59, 63-67 ^Fences^, 58, 59 ^Ma Rainey's Black Bottom^, 58, 59 ^The Piano Lesson^, 58, 59 ^7 Guitars^, 58, 59 ^Two Trains Running^, 58, 59 See also ^Joe Turner's Come and Gone^ >I don't always list >all the artwork titles under each artist in other books; however these >artworks are the focus of this book. That says it all. Kara makes a good argument for not listing all the titles under the artist's name. OTOH, if I were using the index, I guess I'd like to know which plays are discussed--and I *wouldn't* know their titles ahead of time. OTOOH, not *every* possible reader can or should be accommodated. Have you discussed it yet with your editor? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:47:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? At 02:28 PM 10/15/1997 +0100, Martha Osgood wrote: >I also understand that some batteries MUST be used up completely before >being recharged. To recharge that kind of battery with only 60% of the >previous charge used up means that the battery will thereafter only >recharge to 40% of its potential. I've been told this has to do with its >'memory'... Correct me if I am wrong, or jabbering about antiques. This can be true...best check with the manufacturer of the laptop and/or the battery. I know it's true with some cellular phones, and a friend who uses this sort of battery regularly discharges it totally by leaving the phone on for long periods...for the express purpose of recharging it to 100% of capacity. I imagine you could do the same thing with your computer batteries--one at a time, of course! :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: COPYEDITING-L Thanks for the information regarding the list server that a proofreader should subscribe to. I will pass it on to my sister-in-law who is interested in this. However, does anyone know how to subscribe to it? Is there a separate e-mail address and certain line one must enter as with Index-l? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:30:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: well I'm procrasting In-Reply-To: <971015174632.4.2232@mtigwc01> My experience, after moving from Illinois to Washington (state) has been that I have retained some clients and lost others - some of long standing (I'm talking ten years) - who simply were more comfortable with local indexers. However, after five years in Washington, my client base is just about restored to what it was pre-move (in numbers). Charles Anderson Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:25:13 -0700 Reply-To: ollielarue@sprintmail.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Olivia L'Heureux Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? Martha Osgood wrote: > > >Passed on from a friend who uses a laptop as an essential part of her > >business...if you ever think you will be using this machine away from > >civilization and/or electricity, pay close attention to battery life (it can > >vary from 2 hours to well over 8) and be sure to have a second battery that > >you can keep charged up for emergencies. > > I also understand that some batteries MUST be used up completely before > being recharged. To recharge that kind of battery with only 60% of the > previous charge used up means that the battery will thereafter only > recharge to 40% of its potential. I've been told this has to do with its > 'memory'... Correct me if I am wrong, or jabbering about antiques. > > ****************************************************** > Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR > Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors > ****************************************************** Dear Martha, My husband Louis sells computers for a large reseller of hardware and says that you don't need to bring the battery all the way down every time, just from time to time in order to keep from developing a "memory". On the same thread, regarding the laptops (i can't remember who posted it), he says that you can hookup a "Y" connector to your serial port and use an external mouse and full size keyboard. That way you have the portability without the small size; however you'll probably have to work on a desk or table. I am new to this list and this is my first posting. My name is Olivia L'Heureux, I'm from Phoenix, Arizona, and I am not yet an indexer but plan to study (take the USDA course) in the future. Olivia L'Heureux ollielarue@sprintmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:09:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Thank you, Index-ellers!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199710140537.WAA06781@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> Hi everyone!!! Yep, it's really me posting this time and not my husband (Bob) posting in my behalf. I finally got out of the hospital yesterday afternoon!!!!! I would have posted a note here yesterday sometime, but by the time I finally got home after the 60+mile ride from the hospital in 95 degree heat, I was so zonked I didn't even make it into my office. The day was made more interesting by the fact that Southern California decided to go into its annual October conflagration and the massive wildfire was close enough to home cover our car with ash, so it was a thing of wondering whether there would even be a home to return from the hospital to. (Geeesh!) Anyway, I wanted to thank you for your wonderful prayers, email messages, books, phone calls, for folks serving as information centers (and the phone charges they incurred, generous amounts of time spent, etc.), nearly daily hospital visits, and just so many beautiful acts of caring and generosity!!!!! I truly loved all the limericks you sent me, not knowing the week before when I loaded the list with my own, that I'd be receiving so many neat ones in return. I also received really neat things like handmade get well cards on construction paper with real tree leaves pasted or drawn on them. The Southern Cal ASI chapter made these for me at a chapter meeting held in a local park and the whole thing brought me this wonderfully idyllic image that was absolutely awesome!!! I'll cherish all of these things forever. I truly believe that your prayers and other tremendous acts of goodness were as important as the medical care I received in getting me through this. I just can't thank you all enough! I'll also be thanking people personally, but it will take a while to work my way through all of the thank yous. I promise not to keep doing this, having heart attacks every six months, and will find more constructive ways of getting attention. ;-D I think the bypass has now solved the problem and feel that Index-L won't be burdened in the future with notices from my husband of my latest heart attack. Unlike after heart attack #1, I don't have any wonderous exploits of indexing in the CCU to report. (OTOH, if anyone wants a Michelin-type guide to Southern California CCUs and other intensive-care units, let me know. ;-D) This heart attack made the first one seem like a tea party, so there was no messing around for hours at home trying to index around the elephant sitting on my chest, taking leisurely showers when a trip to the ER seemed unavoidable (so that the nurses would see only my best underwear--hey, my mom brought me up right!), etc. Noooooo. With this one, I knew something was really wrong when I suddenly realized that I couldn't win any games of Free Cell. (OK, so I get up before 5am and immediately sit at the computer and start playing games.) Now, this was SERIOUS and my family was calling 911 not too long after *that* realization. You want to talk about bad Monday mornings? That one was for the books. ;-D (The ER nurse did assure me that it was OK that I arrived in the ER without having showered first. But this nurse was male, so his mother probably never told him the usual. I think this tutelage is only passed down through the female lineage along with mitochondrial DNA.) The good thing about this heart attack coming on so fast and hard was that I got to the hospital within that little two-hour time window in which they can give you those powerful clot-busting drugs that probably prevented it from going on to become the usually fatal second heart attack. Hint: feeling of impending doom or sudden terror of dying (like I had before the classic chest-pain symptoms themselves actually hit) is itself a classic symptom, as is feeling terribly "sick" but unable to describe what is even wrong with you. (I even called my mom to come and stay with me because of all of that and everyone in the house was getting ready to go to work, not even knowing I was having a heart attack yet.) So, if you ever get that--look out!!!!! As I said... a really bad Monday morning. ;-D I don't even have any fascinating tales of near-death experiences to wow you guys with, which I was sure would result from having my heart stopped while on the heart-lung machine during the bypass operation. (I guess because it's not really a "near-death" experience since, according to my surgeons, your heart is doing everything it can to restart itself and they have to force it to stay stopped by chilling your blood and plying you with drugs. That info really blew me away that it's actually easier for them to restart your heart than stop it--at least in a way that it'll start again.) All, I brought back from a month-long, three-hospital sojourn was this lousy "zipper". ;-D (Actually, three of them if you count my arm and leg from where they took the artery and vein for the bypass grafts. Bob has reassured me that he still loves me though I now look like the Bride of Frankenstein.) Of course, this has totally dashed any hopes I've ever entertained of returning to my professional belly dancing career of 20-plus years ago. Hmmmm. I could change the chiffon veils for feather boas, dance moves, music, etc. and come back as the Stripper with the Zipper if indexing ever gets too slow. As a new fashion statement, I could post the new decolletage on my CardioIndex Web site whenever I get it online. Joking aside, it's already a world of difference to be able to walk from room to room without having to carry a bottle of nitroglycerine with me. I'll take these zippers over that any day! :-D All I can really tell you is cool things like how to get the nurse's attention when you can't make a sound because you're on the breathing machine with a tube down your throat and they have your hands tied down so you don't pull out all your wires and tubes. (What you do is allow yourself to start choking on the endotracheal tube, which is easy enough since the drugs they give you to keep from doing so only barely work. Once you start choking, the tube immediately clogs up. This causes an alarm to go off because you are now truly suffocating--a potentially lethal condition. In fact, your family, an important backup system in case the alarm doesn't work, will simultaneously start shrieking for the nurse because your whole body is in a total paroxysm of silent spasm. The nurse immediately bends over you and starts suctioning the tube. As soon as life-giving oxygen is pouring into your lungs again, you start moving your mouth all around the tube, trying to form words. Oddly enough, they're really good at interpreting these bizarre mouth movements and this technique works like a charm every time. And we indexers thought *we* were the experts in information retrieval! Hah! Remember this for the next time you're on life support.) Anyway, I had to call the publisher of the book I was indexing and tell them that they had to find another indexer, since, with congestive heart failure and pneumonia on top of the heart attack, I knew I wasn't getting out of the hospital for a while (though I still didn't know how long a while it would be). Of course, this didn't happen while I was working on some horrendous project with a ridiculous style guide, embedding in FrameMaker7+HorrifyingMarkupLanguage about some brainchilling topic of hundreds of pages due in 4 days that I would have been more than glad to get rid of. Noooooo! It happened during a supercool project with plenty of time on a fascinating subject for a brand-new client that I had for years intended to market to!!!! Nancy Humphries, I feel your pain at losing a good project!!!!!!!!!!!! (Unlike you, however, I have decent pain pills for whenever it gets too bad. I'd give you a hug but, being my chest was cracked open just a week ago and hugging is one of the last things I want to do for a while, please accept this virtual replacement. {{{Nancy}}}}) While I was pretty gung-ho on doing research for the CardioIndex, I had never intended to take it to quite these lengths. But having gone to such lengths, nonetheless, I'm more eager than ever to get it done. (I saved those posts about HTML coding the targets of See alsos, which is one of my biggest nightmares.) I have this odd urge to really expand the entries on cardiac surgery, for example. ;-D Now, please folks. Don't fear indexing and all-nighters *simply* because I had two heart attacks in six months. I was already doomed to have the second heart attack when I left the hospital from the first and cardiologist #1 was already concerned. When I was hospitalized again six weeks after heart attack #1, I was already showing signs of congestive heart failure (which the doctor never even told me about, but nicely told the doctors at the VA after heart attack #2 when they requested my medical records). So, I was in more trouble than I even knew about for months. I'm not trying to downplay the dangers of the stress we work under, but most folks don't have severe hypertension I did leading to the first heart attack which made stress way worse for me than for normal people, bad as it is for everyone. But, I did notice a few interesting posts here while I was gone about menopause and post-menopause. Ladies, please, if you go through an early surgical menopause like I did, please strongly consider with your physician the heart-protective effects of estrogen replacement therapy, especially if you have a dramatic family history of early heart disease among women like I do. It needs to be balanced with whether you have a family history of breast cancer, but at least consider it. I really read the riot act to my sister today when she told me that she had let herself run out of her estrogen and blood pressure medicine temporarily, dramatically showing her my "zipper". She indeed got the message. (I'll also be expanding the CardioIndex section pointing to various aspects of heart disease and women, which is somewhat a different animal than it is in men.) Also, U.S. military veterans (of either sex), don't be misled by media reports about poor care at VA hospitals like I was. Sure, there are probably some real horror stories. But the tale that isn't told in the media is that VA hospitals are on the level of teaching hospitals when it comes to providing care for serious illnesses and that the quality of care has improved since the brouhaha about it some years ago. The cardiologists and thoracic surgeons who cared for me at the VA Hospital in West LA were also professors in their respective fields at UCLA's medical school, which is top-flight for cardiology. And even while I was at the VA Hospital in Long Beach, where we didn't have the UCLA professors participating, the care was absolutely top-notch. When I was transferred there from the first hospital where I was supposedly stabilized for the heart attack, I was immediately beset upon by two cardiologists who went to work on me for hours nonstop. (They weren't pleased I was transferred in such lousy condition.) They even called in an infectious disease specialist when trying to control the pneumonia, which is less likely to happen in a nonteaching environment. I could even see a huge difference between the thoroughness of the cardiac catherization I had at the VA vs. the one I had after the first heart attack (where they opened a coronary artery that was uselessly feeding already dead heart muscle instead of opening the much more important artery that ended up causing the second, more destructive heart attack). So, don't turn your nose up at the VA, like I ignorantly did at first, if you're eligible for medical care there. After all, it's not welfare, but something you're entitled to by your enlistment contract or officer's commission. Well, I've rambled long enough (and promise no more lengthy posts about heart attacks) and hubby is calling me to a nice low-fat, low-sodium dinner of salad and grilled fish. Thanks again, everyone!! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:26:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: laptop Leslie, I just went this route too, for many of the reasons already mentioned.... I also wanted to save some bucks by getting a used one so I started with the classifieds in the local paper. When I found I was going to pay close to $1000 or more to get what I needed* I was reluctant to give that kind of cash to a stranger, not REALLY knowing the condition of the machine. So, I found a shop that sells new and used computers, waited for them to get a laptop in, and wound up getting a practically brand new pentium 133 w/ 16 meg RAM, a 33.6 modem, over a gig hard drive, a floppy and CD-Rom drive, for $1100. It also still has a manufacturer's warranty on it. And, I had the assurance that the store had checked the system (for problems and viruses), plus some user support on the machine (from the store.) *I was going to get low end too, (because indexing software doesn't require more) but wanted email and WPWin 6.0 capabilities. Both are just as important to my business as the indexing software itself. Not willing to settle for less than a 28.8 modem, (because anything less is too slow on the internet) I found I'd have to pay $800 to $1,000 anyway. So I went up to a better machine. I got a good deal, but still spent a lot of money, so I'm glad I have some backing on the machine (and a NICE) system! :-) Jill Jill Barrett Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:43:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: laptop batteries On the question of letting laptop batteries drain, I second Sonsie's recommendation to check with the manufacturer. I let my battery drain after reading an article in _Home Office Computing_ that said it was a good idea, only to read a retraction in the next issue of the magazine! As a result, it seems to me that this battery goes dead very quickly when I let the machine run on the battery, even though it starts out saying I have almost 2 hours, and I need a new battery sooner than I would have otherwise. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:53:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: laptop batteries At 09:43 AM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >As a result, it seems to me that this battery goes dead very >quickly when I let the machine run on the battery, even though it starts out >saying I have almost 2 hours, and I need a new battery sooner than I would >have otherwise. I believe GUI interfaces like Win95 suck more juice than a simple DOS prompt. I have a ThinkPad about two years old and have problems with the battery draining for no apparent reason. With Win95 running and the lid closed the battery is supposed to be good for three weeks. I get less than 24 hours. Now, I can't even run off the AC adapter. The "battery" light comes on and I can't power up. Perhaps the battery is truly dead, but I doubt I've used it ten hours over the last two years. Coincidentally, I just got a catalog of such batteries. Phone: 800-batteries. Web: www.800batteries.com Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: COPYEDITING-L >Thanks for the information regarding the list server that a proofreader >should subscribe to. I will pass it on to my sister-in-law who is >interested in this. However, does anyone know how to subscribe to it? >Is there a separate e-mail address and certain line one must enter as >with Index-l? The e-mail address is: listproc@cornell.edu Send this command in the body of the letter: SUBSCRIBE COPYEDITING-L your name Let me make one caveat here. This list is primarily for _copy editors_, not proofreaders, although lots of proofreaders subscribe, and some editors also do proofreading, and some proofreaders also do editing, they are not the same profession. My $0.02. elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Re: West Coast Co-op I am a relative beginner, and not quite ready to market myself for anything but the simplest of indexes. But when I AM ready, a co-op would be of interest to me, so I would greatly appreciate being kept informed of whatever is going on in the way of planning, on List or off. Emily Adelsohn Pasadena, CA EmAdelsohn@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:27:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers (fwd) >From: Robin Buckmiller >Subject: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers >Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:31:26 -0700 > >Bonnie, > >Here's the job descriptions and reply instructions. Again, please note: >this is a full-time, on-site position, with salary, benefits, etc. >Thanks again! > >Indexer >You are the Go To person for Encarta Encyclopedia and other Reference >Business Unit products; writing and editing index entries, retrieving >online information, and writing cross references and browse hierarchies. >Qualifications? A minimum of 4 years' of indexing with an in depth >knowledge of indexing principles for multiple entries and levels. >Ability to develop synonym, hypernym and hyponym sets and use a variety >of tools is a must. Knowledge of Microsoft Windows and Office preferred. >BA/BS degree required. > >Microsoft offers a competitive salary and excellent benefits. E-mail >your resume in ASCII text format to: resume@microsoft.com (indicate >Dept. A3ca8-1009 within the text of your resume) or mail to: Microsoft >Corporation, Attn: Recruiting A3ca8-1009, One Microsoft Way, STE 303, >Redmond, WA 98052-8303. No phone calls please. We are an equal >opportunity employer and support workplace diversity. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:53:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: well I'm procrasting/moving I've moved several times since I started freelancing, sometimes locally, sometimes not. I have yet to lose a client because of a move. I let my current clients know that I will be moving and the dates before the move. I do not accept projects that have due dates close to the moving date. I do accept projects that have due dates about 2 weeks after the moving date and a reasonably long schedule (ie., starting about 2 weeks before the moving date). And I explain why I'm turning the projects down--that I can't guarantee that I would get it done because I'll be in the middle of a move. I also explain to clients who've asked my to complete a project, say, two weeks before the move, that if the due date slips much, that we may run into problems because of a move. Most everyone is very accomodating. The only real problem I had was someone begging me to do a project with a due date the day before the truck was coming. I explained I couldn't take it, and they begged and pleaded anyway (it's nice to be wanted). I didn't take the project because I knew I wouldn't do a good job on it with all the other pressures. After I know what my new address and phone number will be, I send out an announcement or note of some kind that lets all my clients know when I'll be moving and when I'll be available and what my new contact information will be. For some clients, this is as simple as an email. Even my "local" clients have continued using me. They were comfortable with my work and our work relationship. And, with FedEx and email, we're never very far away. Admittedly, I'm not going to use a courier from Sacramento to San Diego, but email has taken care of most of that. I seldom use couriers anymore anyway. Also, the computer is the last thing packed and the first thing opened. I get my office set up immediately with just enough stuff that I can get work done. Then, when all the hubub is over, I take the time to get it really organized. Good luck with your move. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:51:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: hypernym and hyponym sets Indexer >You are the Go To person for Encarta Encyclopedia and other Reference >Business Unit products; writing and editing index entries, retrieving >online information, and writing cross references and browse hierarchies. >Qualifications? A minimum of 4 years' of indexing with an in depth >knowledge of indexing principles for multiple entries and levels. >Ability to develop synonym, hypernym and hyponym sets and use a variety >of tools is a must. Knowledge of Microsoft Windows and Office preferred. >BA/BS degree required. OK, I'll reveal my ignorance. Although I can make an educated guess that hypernym::hyperlink as synonym::word (that is, hypernyms might be alternate entry points to concepts in an online index just as synonyms are in a hardcopy index), I have no idea what a "hyponym" is. Is the "above/below" meaning of "hyper/hypo" somehow related to the hierarchical nature of an index? Maybe "links to" and "links from?" I am clueless. Ann (who will probably regret posting this Evidence of Ignorance. Oh well, at least it isn't Confirmation of Crankiness :-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julia Stumpff Subject: Indexing a bus schedule I am in the process of indexing a bus schedule, and would appreciate any guidance anyone could provide. (This is a public transit system) Has anyone on this list had experience with indexing a bus schedule or anything with a similar format? If so, please email with any insight, suggestions, etc. I am willing to summarize for the list if there is interest. Thank you, Julia *************************************************************************** Julia C. Stumpff University of Illinois Library of the Health Sciences stumpff@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu *************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:56:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers (fwd) Do you have to be at Microsoft for this position, or is it something one could do freelance? Suellen On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:27:08 -0400 Charlotte Skuster writes: >>From: Robin Buckmiller >>Subject: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers >>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:31:26 -0700 >> >>Bonnie, >> >>Here's the job descriptions and reply instructions. Again, please >note: >>this is a full-time, on-site position, with salary, benefits, etc. >>Thanks again! >> >>Indexer >>You are the Go To person for Encarta Encyclopedia and other Reference >>Business Unit products; writing and editing index entries, retrieving >>online information, and writing cross references and browse >hierarchies. >>Qualifications? A minimum of 4 years' of indexing with an in depth >>knowledge of indexing principles for multiple entries and levels. >>Ability to develop synonym, hypernym and hyponym sets and use a >variety >>of tools is a must. Knowledge of Microsoft Windows and Office >preferred. >>BA/BS degree required. >> >>Microsoft offers a competitive salary and excellent benefits. E-mail >>your resume in ASCII text format to: resume@microsoft.com (indicate >>Dept. A3ca8-1009 within the text of your resume) or mail to: >Microsoft >>Corporation, Attn: Recruiting A3ca8-1009, One Microsoft Way, STE 303, >>Redmond, WA 98052-8303. No phone calls please. We are an equal >>opportunity employer and support workplace diversity. >> >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:34:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: hypernym and hyponym sets In-Reply-To: <199710161815.LAA24888@mx3.u.washington.edu> It's OK. Microsoft is its own little world!! On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Ann Norcross wrote: > Indexer > >You are the Go To person for Encarta Encyclopedia and other Reference > >Business Unit products; writing and editing index entries, retrieving > >online information, and writing cross references and browse hierarchies. > >Qualifications? A minimum of 4 years' of indexing with an in depth > >knowledge of indexing principles for multiple entries and levels. > >Ability to develop synonym, hypernym and hyponym sets and use a variety > >of tools is a must. Knowledge of Microsoft Windows and Office preferred. > >BA/BS degree required. > > OK, I'll reveal my ignorance. Although I can make an educated guess > that hypernym::hyperlink as synonym::word (that is, hypernyms might be > alternate entry points to concepts in an online index just as synonyms > are in a hardcopy index), I have no idea what a "hyponym" is. Is the > "above/below" meaning of "hyper/hypo" somehow related to the > hierarchical nature of an index? Maybe "links to" and "links from?" > I am clueless. > > Ann (who will probably regret posting this Evidence of Ignorance. Oh > well, at least it isn't Confirmation of Crankiness :-) > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:22:41 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 14 Oct 1997 to 15 Oct 1997 Leslie wrote: >Subject: laptop use/recommendations? >Hey everyone, >I am about to purchase a laptop. I'm limited in funds, so I need to get a >low-end laptop, but I need to make myself more portable (like indexing at the >park while son plays, etc.:D). Can any of you who use laptops recommend some. >I can't seem to find a lot of consumer information on the less expensive >ones. Not a laptop as such but an increasingly popular handheld computing device is the US Robotics Palm Pilot Pro (IBM sell a rebadged model of their own, too). This is about the size of a paperback book and doesn't have a keyboard, so text and data entry is via a stylus and a 'write-on' screen. It wouldn't run CINDEX or Macrex, but for editing and entering raw text it's about as portable as you can get. The Pro model has 2Mb of memory (3Mb models are available) and so can store substantial amounts of text - including complete books. Many songs of praise for it can be found in the Usenet newsgroup system, and there are a growing number of shareware and commercial programs available. I believe the US street price is around $US300. Only poverty has prevented me from rushing out and buying one already. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:43:06 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Titles of works question In-Reply-To: <199710152306.QAA10563@pacific.net> Carol wrote: >Have you discussed it yet with your editor? Hah! I'm always recommending that course to others--but for some reason I was holding out. I did email my editor and she says, duplicate page numbers and all, the competing books all list all the plays under each author. So I'll list them all. There's only a few for which it seems a dubious practice. This is a constant in textbooks, btw--what the competition does. I have a further question, though, about Carol's post: >Victoria, my clients have wanted me to do just what you've done here. The >only thing I do a little differently is the cross-ref. I'd do this: > > Wilson, August, 57-59, 63-67 > ^Fences^, 58, 59 > ^Ma Rainey's Black Bottom^, 58, 59 > ^The Piano Lesson^, 58, 59 > ^7 Guitars^, 58, 59 > ^Two Trains Running^, 58, 59 > See also ^Joe Turner's Come and Gone^ This is a place where my imperative to treat like material in like ways pipes in to say--but, ^Joe Turner^ is the same level of information as the other titles, so it should be treated the same and requires a ^see^ ref. Using the ^see also^ cuts down on repetitious text, but are there other reasons for approaching it this way that I'm not aware of? Thanks-- Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:38:42 -0400 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Windows Help indexing tool A 15 day trialware version of Windexer is available for download www.sageline.com -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:53:34 -0700 Reply-To: ollielarue@sprintmail.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Olivia L'Heureux Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 14 Oct 1997 to 15 Oct 1997 Jonathan Jermey wrote: > > Leslie wrote: > > >Subject: laptop use/recommendations? > > >Hey everyone, > >I am about to purchase a laptop. I'm limited in funds, so I need to get a > >low-end laptop, but I need to make myself more portable (like indexing at > the > >park while son plays, etc.:D). Can any of you who use laptops recommend > some. > >I can't seem to find a lot of consumer information on the less expensive > >ones. > > Not a laptop as such but an increasingly popular handheld computing device > is the US Robotics Palm Pilot Pro (IBM sell a rebadged model of their own, > too). This is about the size of a paperback book and doesn't have a > keyboard, so text and data entry is via a stylus and a 'write-on' screen. > It wouldn't run CINDEX or Macrex, but for editing and entering raw text > it's about as portable as you can get. The Pro model has 2Mb of memory > (3Mb models are available) and so can store substantial amounts of text - > including complete books. Many songs of praise for it can be found in the > Usenet newsgroup system, and there are a growing number of shareware and > commercial programs available. I believe the US street price is around > $US300. > > Only poverty has prevented me from rushing out and buying one already. > > Jonathan Jonathan, try one before you buy it as my husband (who sells computer hardware for a living) says it's like "doing needlepoint" because of it's small size. You might have small hands and/or like it, but see if you can try it first. Leslie, my husband says that his company right now has a "loss leader" (like at the supermarket, where the market takes a loss to get you in the door on some products) that is a laptop for people on a budget. It is a brand new discontinued model (not refurbished) IBM notebook computer for about $1050 including shipping and case. If you are interested, please email me for more information/details. We have purchased all of our computer equipment from the loss leaders that he has and have always been very pleased. Olivia L'Heureux ollielarue@sprintmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:46:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? In-Reply-To: <199710160422.XAA23465@mixcom.mixcom.com> Leslie, you didn't say whether you were looking for DOS-based or Mac. Anyway, here's a viewpoint from the Mac side. I bought a used PowerBook 145 with a Targus case for $600. Cindex and MS Word run just fine on it. The guy who sold it to us had already ruined the battery (he didn't know about the memory effect and had constantly recharged it without letting it run down). So we bought a new kind of battery from BTI that runs for 4 hrs. and can be recharged any time, without having to run it down first. I bought this laptop for several uses: on the road (sitting-around time at my daughter's gymnastics lessons and meets) during electrical storms sittin' on front porch swing in nice weather back-up in case my main computer has to be in the shop Now I'm already considering upgrading (to another used PowerBook), because the 145 has no video output, so I can't hook it up to an LCD panel (and overhead) to do presentations. You can't always predict what you're going to want to use a laptop for later on. Fortunately, it's not that hard to get good used ones, because people are always upgrading. P. Buell said: >PS: I avoid laptops like the plague. My fingers are too big and they are >too expensive for what they do. The best I have seen are Mac Powerbooks, >however. My fingertips are small, so I don't have any trouble with the PowerBook's keys--but my husband doesn't either. One thing though, the trackball stinks. We had to add his-and-her plug-ins (sounds kinky, doesn't it, but I just mean trackball and touch pad). I agree with what others have said about speed. If were using my PowerBook as my primary computer, I would not have gone with a 145. OTOH, so long as I'm just keying in (not doing larger tasks, which I can save for my big, fast PowerCurve), the PowerBook seems to keep pace with my thinking and typing. Oh, I did add OneClick (scripting utility) to it to compensate for the missing "page up" and "page down" keys; I do everything from the keyboard. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:03:20 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: CD-ROM resources In-Reply-To: <199710160422.XAA23465@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I don't use any CD-ROM resources in my indexing work, but would like to know >which ones others find are good enough to rely upon or even to swear by. > I regularly use the Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia, Time (magazine) Almanac, Webster's 10th, and American Heritage Talking Dictionary and find them all very reliable and helpful. I've got InfoPedia, too, but it's too skimpy, so I don't use it much. I recently bought the Encyuclopaedia Britannica CD-ROM (Cindy, did you know it's available on CD-ROM now?)--haven't used it too much yet, but I'm already pretty impressed with it. I use these resources not only to check names but when I want an overview of a subject. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:52:02 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: oy vey In-Reply-To: <199710160422.XAA23465@mixcom.mixcom.com> I treat that situation like any other passage that starts on one page and continues to the next. Very often the keyword that goes into the index appears on the second page of the range, and I assume that readers are bright enough to figure this out. Or what if it's a concept not explicitly used in the text? We still rely on readers (rightly or wrongly) to figure that kind of stuff out. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:17:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Titles of works question In-Reply-To: <199710170421.XAA25228@mixcom.mixcom.com> >> Wilson, August, 57-59, 63-67 >> ^Fences^, 58, 59 >> ^Ma Rainey's Black Bottom^, 58, 59 >> ^The Piano Lesson^, 58, 59 >> ^7 Guitars^, 58, 59 >> ^Two Trains Running^, 58, 59 >> See also ^Joe Turner's Come and Gone^ > >This is a place where my imperative to treat like material in like ways >pipes in to say--but, ^Joe Turner^ is the same level of information as the >other titles, so it should be treated the same and requires a ^see^ ref. >Using the ^see also^ cuts down on repetitious text, but are there other >reasons for approaching it this way that I'm not aware of? My only defense is to repeat what someone else pointed out earlier: the "Joe Turner" material isn't like material, 'cause it's a lengthy discussion, which is how it got to be a main entry in the first place. I also prefer to have the cross-refs in a more prominent position, so I very rarely cross-ref from subs. This may be one of those matters of taste. So are you saying that if you had the following sort of entry music baroque, 1 classical, 2 modern, 4-24 romantic, 4 you would break out "modern music" this way music baroque, 1 classical, 2 modern (see modern music) romantic, 4 instead of this way? music baroque, 1 classical, 2 romantic, 4 See also modern music Hm. What do the rest of you do? All (800 of you) together now . . . ;-) Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:31:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: hyper/hyponyms Ann Norcross wrote: <> You are not either clueless, Ann! Hypernym means broader term, hyponym narrower term. Completely needless bits of jargon, in my opinion, except for going so pretty with synonym (look, Greek triplets, how cute). Anyway a synonym, hypernym, hyponym set would be what we old-fashioned folks call, ahem, a THESAURUS. Reminds me of the time two medical students were taping something to my daughter's arm and one of them said "Should the tape go all the way around?" and the other said reprovingly "No, it doesn't need to be circumferential." Turns out doctors really do talk about circumferential bandaging. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:07:27 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Titles of works question In-Reply-To: <199710170541.WAA06281@pacific.net> >So are you saying that if you had the following sort of entry > > music > baroque, 1 > classical, 2 > modern, 4-24 > romantic, 4 > >you would break out "modern music" this way > > music > baroque, 1 > classical, 2 > modern (see modern music) > romantic, 4 > >instead of this way? > > music > baroque, 1 > classical, 2 > romantic, 4 > See also modern music I always do it the first way, with a "see" ref. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:31:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: Keeping clients after a move << Also, how about keeping clients after the move? Some of my clients are local and I am concerned that if/when I move I will not be able to retain them (because of the convience of delivering work, etc.) Any comments, experience? >> I moved two years ago and have yet to establish myself with a "local client" in my new home. Most of my work comes from clients I had in my old location--as long as FedEx stays in business, so will I. I established a relationship with one of my clients because I was local and they needed someone to work in-house temporarily. They passed my name onto others in the same organization. We have communicated by FedEx ever since. My biggest client called me because I was local, but we have never actually met, even when I lived a bus ride away. All our contact has been by phone, FedEx, and e-mail. The only difference is that my FedEx deadline is now 3:00 PDT, instead of 6:00 CDT. Janet Russell Corofin Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:50:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: CD-ROM resources At 02:03 PM 10/16/97 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: I recently bought the Encyuclopaedia >Britannica CD-ROM (Cindy, did you know it's available on CD-ROM >now?)--haven't used it too much yet, but I'm already pretty impressed with >it. Yes, but the online version is updated more often. You also get the last four Britannica Books of the Year included with the online version and there are The Week in Review and Spotlight features that focus on current events. I pay $8.50 a month for this service, which works well for me. The advantages of the CD-ROM version would be of course that you can access it any time, while you might not be able to get online right away for the online version (I have never had problem with this, though). While the CD-ROM version might be cheaper over time than the online version, I like the current feel to the online version, as I often index current political science stuff. My next goal is to buy OED on CD-ROM! At 900 bucks (although I found a place that quotes this price, I hope this is not right!), it will be a while on that one. But what fun to have it! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:50:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710161901.PAA15658@library.lib.binghamton.edu> Please send questions about this position to Robin Buckmiller Do you have to be at Microsoft for this position, or is it something one > could do freelance? Suellen > > On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:27:08 -0400 Charlotte Skuster > writes: > >>From: Robin Buckmiller > >>Subject: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers > >>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:31:26 -0700 > >> > >>Bonnie, > >> > >>Here's the job descriptions and reply instructions. Again, please > >note: > >>this is a full-time, on-site position, with salary, benefits, etc. > >>Thanks again! > >> > >>Indexer > >>You are the Go To person for Encarta Encyclopedia and other Reference > >>Business Unit products; writing and editing index entries, retrieving > >>online information, and writing cross references and browse > >hierarchies. > >>Qualifications? A minimum of 4 years' of indexing with an in depth > >>knowledge of indexing principles for multiple entries and levels. > >>Ability to develop synonym, hypernym and hyponym sets and use a > >variety > >>of tools is a must. Knowledge of Microsoft Windows and Office > >preferred. > >>BA/BS degree required. > >> > >>Microsoft offers a competitive salary and excellent benefits. E-mail > >>your resume in ASCII text format to: resume@microsoft.com (indicate > >>Dept. A3ca8-1009 within the text of your resume) or mail to: > >Microsoft > >>Corporation, Attn: Recruiting A3ca8-1009, One Microsoft Way, STE 303, > >>Redmond, WA 98052-8303. No phone calls please. We are an equal > >>opportunity employer and support workplace diversity. > >> > >> > >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ for Mac They now have ICQ for Mac!!!!... If you would like to participate in the ICQ Book Indexer's chat go to the web page and download the program at: http://www.icq.com Once you download the program the UIN number or ICQ # for the chat room is: 3240967 In case you have missed my postings and don't know what ICQ is ....it is a program that allows all internet providers to come together in a chat room. It doesn't matter who your internet provider is you can still join in the chat with this program. The next chat has been posponed. Please let me know what times would be convenienct for you if you are interested in joining ing. I know a lot of you think I am being repetitious but each time I send this notice out I get a few more that hadn't seen it yet. I am beginning to wonder if it is getting to the list each time. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:55:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) In-Reply-To: <199710170950.FAA29363@transfer.usit.net> I'm finding this discussion fascinating. My reference materials are pretty skimpy if you only look at what I purchase. I have half a shelf of print reference sources, and I have zero in CD format. Why? I use the same sources via the Internet, either through subscriptions that our local libraries have, or to the sources directly. My local library allows me to telnet to their network & use their online encyclopedias. It's been a while, but they did have Britannica last time I needed it. OED has been especially useful to have at my fingertips, as Cynthia comments on. I'm also working on a book on the human rights legal regime in Bosnia-Herzegovina & the best source I've found so far have been the official UN web site and the Human Rights Encyclopedia (which I found on the 'net). Both are packed with info my local libraries don't even have. I would rarely even _consider_ paying extra money for my own personal copies of many of these sources when my taxes paid for the library to get them & they are as easily accessible and readable on my computer screen. Many of you would be surprised at what you can access via your (or other) libraries' networks. You can also get to many useful reference sources via the ASI web site's "Resources for Indexers" section that lists "Internet Reference Sources". NOTE: most of these are freebie sites, not the ones your library would purchase & make available to you. (If you ever have suggestions for us to add to those pages, send a note to the webmaster.) Anyone else use more sources via the 'net or your library? -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > At 02:03 PM 10/16/97 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: > > I recently bought the Encyuclopaedia > >Britannica CD-ROM (Cindy, did you know it's available on CD-ROM > >now?)--haven't used it too much yet, but I'm already pretty impressed with > >it. > > Yes, but the online version is updated more often. You also get the last > four Britannica Books of the Year included with the online version and there > are The Week in Review and Spotlight features that focus on current events. > I pay $8.50 a month for this service, which works well for me. The > advantages of the CD-ROM version would be of course that you can access it > any time, while you might not be able to get online right away for the > online version (I have never had problem with this, though). While the > CD-ROM version might be cheaper over time than the online version, I like > the current feel to the online version, as I often index current political > science stuff. > > My next goal is to buy OED on CD-ROM! At 900 bucks (although I found a place > that quotes this price, I hope this is not right!), it will be a while on > that one. But what fun to have it! > > > > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer > cbertel@usit.net > Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > > ***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: CD-ROM resources At 05:50 AM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:03 PM 10/16/97 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: > >I recently bought the Encyuclopaedia >>Britannica CD-ROM (Cindy, did you know it's available on CD-ROM >>now?)--haven't used it too much yet, but I'm already pretty impressed with >>it. > >Yes, but the online version is updated more often. You also get the last >four Britannica Books of the Year included with the online version and there >are The Week in Review and Spotlight features that focus on current events. >I pay $8.50 a month for this service, which works well for me. The >advantages of the CD-ROM version would be of course that you can access it >any time, while you might not be able to get online right away for the >online version (I have never had problem with this, though). While the >CD-ROM version might be cheaper over time than the online version, I like >the current feel to the online version, as I often index current political >science stuff. > >My next goal is to buy OED on CD-ROM! At 900 bucks (although I found a place >that quotes this price, I hope this is not right!), it will be a while on >that one. But what fun to have it! My library bought it on cd a few years ago and the price was $US 900 for a one-user-at-a-time license. It was so 'memory' greedy that we had trouble putting any other resource on the same machine (a lowly 386 PC). We now have it available via the web and online as an adjunct to our catalog (we're supporting both telnet and web applications to MERLIN, the parent system to the catalog.) The web version is faster for us, but we're also sporting T1 connections. Poke around the EB website [http:/www.eb.com/] and dig into the information about the web version (I assume it's under "Subscription"). This may be the best alternative for stand-alone freelancers. They do offer a free trial. Also, check with your local public or nearby academic library. They may have a subscription that allows anyone affiliated with them to use EB via the web. (Our alumni get to use it for the price of an alumni assn. membership--about $50!) Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:36:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but you can also 'rent' laptops from some computer stores. If you're only gone once or twice a year for a few days to a couple of weeks, this could work out better financially. You do have to shop around for the best rental rates. My brother-in-law rents a Powerbook everytime he comes to spend Thanksgiving with us. (Makes dodging inane conversations with your in-laws easier!) Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:50:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Medical index At 08:27 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >Dick: I will. By advanced-level programming I think of something like a >COM text; dense stuff. Paul > >On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > >> At 03:58 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much >> >less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem >> >credible. Paul D. buell >> >> Sigh. I specifically said run-of-the-mill books. Next time you are in >> Raleigh, you are welcome to watch. >> >> Dick Paul, Just between you and me, I thought the same thing you did--how can they do it that fast? I think, maybe, it explains the piss poor quality of some of the indexes I see as a book selector. And I don't think you were calling anyone a liar. It does seem incredible. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:51:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Medical index At 08:27 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >Dick: I will. By advanced-level programming I think of something like a >COM text; dense stuff. Paul > >On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > >> At 03:58 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much >> >less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem >> >credible. Paul D. buell >> >> Sigh. I specifically said run-of-the-mill books. Next time you are in >> Raleigh, you are welcome to watch. >> >> Dick Oops. Hoisted by own pitard! Sorry all, flame away! Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:18:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) Keri is absolutely right, the Internet is full of great resources; my only reservation is about the producers of some of the sites--how reliable is their scholarship? If the source is an electronic version of a print version, I tend to feel more comfortable with the online source. As for local libraries: It depends on where you live and your library, I guess. Public libraries in some more rural places are not even online yet. The public library here is not on the same level as large urban public libraries: here, the only access to the three online information tools available (EB, Contemporary Authors, and WorldCat OCLC service) is through on-site library workstations. No off-site access at the present time. There is also always the local university library if you are lucky enough to have a significant other with an account at a nearby institution. Otherwise, many of the better online "goodies" are not available to everyone with home computers. For example, as a citizen of Virginia, I can check out books from the Virginia Tech library but I cannot access their subscription databases from my home computer, even though my tax dollars also support that institution. I can go to the library to do this but since for me time is always a cruncher, I rarely can do that to check certain fine points while I am indexing. So that leaves me with the need to be surrounded by what reference works I need in any given moment. Hence the buying of my own reference books. It is certainly not something that everyone has to do or would even want to do. Aside from my need for these materials as an indexer, owning books is right up there with food for me as a basic necessity in life, even if I were not an indexer! Thanks, Keri, for reminding us of the richnesses of many public libraries in this country! At 06:55 AM 10/17/97 -0700, Kari Bero wrote: >I use the same sources via the Internet, either through subscriptions that >our local libraries have, or to the sources directly. My local library >allows me to telnet to their network & use their online encyclopedias. >It's been a while, but they did have Britannica last time I needed it. OED >has been especially useful to have at my fingertips, as Cynthia comments >on. I'm also working on a book on the human rights legal regime in >Bosnia-Herzegovina & the best source I've found so far have been the >official UN web site and the Human Rights Encyclopedia (which I found on >the 'net). Both are packed with info my local libraries don't even have. > >I would rarely even _consider_ paying extra money for my own personal >copies of many of these sources when my taxes paid for the library to get >them & they are as easily accessible and readable on my computer screen. >Many of you would be surprised at what you can access via your (or other) >libraries' networks. > >You can also get to many useful reference sources via the ASI web site's >"Resources for Indexers" section that lists "Internet Reference Sources". >NOTE: most of these are freebie sites, not the ones your library would >purchase & make available to you. (If you ever have suggestions for us to >add to those pages, send a note to the webmaster.) > >Anyone else use more sources via the 'net or your library? > > -Kari > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Kari J. Bero >Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 >3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com >Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >> At 02:03 PM 10/16/97 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: >> >> I recently bought the Encyuclopaedia >> >Britannica CD-ROM (Cindy, did you know it's available on CD-ROM >> >now?)--haven't used it too much yet, but I'm already pretty impressed with >> >it. >> >> Yes, but the online version is updated more often. You also get the last >> four Britannica Books of the Year included with the online version and there >> are The Week in Review and Spotlight features that focus on current events. >> I pay $8.50 a month for this service, which works well for me. The >> advantages of the CD-ROM version would be of course that you can access it >> any time, while you might not be able to get online right away for the >> online version (I have never had problem with this, though). While the >> CD-ROM version might be cheaper over time than the online version, I like >> the current feel to the online version, as I often index current political >> science stuff. >> >> My next goal is to buy OED on CD-ROM! At 900 bucks (although I found a place >> that quotes this price, I hope this is not right!), it will be a while on >> that one. But what fun to have it! >> >> >> >> ***************************************** >> >> Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer >> cbertel@usit.net >> Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html >> >> ***************************************** >> > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:26:00 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sean O'Connell Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? In-Reply-To: <199710171441.KAA19497@leo.vsla.edu>; from "Anne Taylor" at Oct 17, 97 9:36 am I didn't know one could rent a laptop. Could you give me some more information? What stores? How much? What programs are on these laptops? Thanks for the idea. Sean O. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:50:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: Medical index Re the fast scan of pages. There is a book out on speed reading. I took the test they had and came out to 3200 words per minute. There are some who read 5000, and 10000 words per minute, so it is possible some of these people could do that type of indexing. I was shocked to find my speed at 3200. Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:11:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? At 11:26 AM 10/17/97 EDT, you wrote: >I didn't know one could rent a laptop. Could you give me some >more information? What stores? How much? What programs are on >these laptops? Thanks for the idea. > >Sean O. My brother-in-law uses one of the mid-sized computer retailers in his area--sorry I don't know its name. The staff specialize in serving small business people and offer a range of services: from loading software and updates on a regular basis to your main PC and laptop to renting laptops with your choice of software for travel. I don't know what the rental fees are, but Jim had worked out that he could save quite a bit (including the price of loss/theft/damage insurance) by not having to purchase a machine he wouldn't use regularly. My local yellowpages has a heading for 'computer and equipment--rental and lease'. (To my surprise, National Rent to Own and Remco are listed along with the specialists.) The ads list types of machines (most of them include laptops), software, and daily, weekly, etc. options. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:14:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Birchfield, Vicki" Subject: Re: CD-ROM resources Ouch! $900 for the CD-rom version of the OED! See the Oxford University Press website. Their online catalog lists it for $395, and the New Shorter version for $95, for both Mac and Windows. http://www.oup-usa.org/orbs/ Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:18:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Medical index Ann Taylor wrote: >Paul, > >Just between you and me, You may have meant it to be just between you and Paul, but you posted it to the list. > I thought the same thing you did--how can they do >it that fast? I, and several others, have explained repeatedly how it is done: relatively simple material with which we are intimately familiar, low density text, and the figures everyone is dithering about reflect only the reading/markup time, not total indexing time. What part of that do you find incredible? I too have seen things posted to the list that I found hard to believe. However, in every case where I have taken the time to ask for more information, the statements have proven true and reasonable *given the context from which the poster was speaking.* > think, maybe, it explains the piss poor quality of some of >the indexes I see as a book selector. >And I don't think you were calling anyone a liar. It does seem incredible. According to Webster: Incredible -- too extraordinary and improbable to be believed. So, I guess if I'm not being called a liar I am being called an incompetent. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:39:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710171456.HAA29063@mx5.u.washington.edu> Anne: in general the quality of most computer manual indexing is matched only by the quality of the text. I have bid on some of these jobs and continued to be amazed how little respect there is for indexers in the computer field in general. What, edit your index, unheard of. Have sufficient time to work, how could you want that? Index a completed text, what a strange request? I don't do it any more. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Anne Taylor wrote: > At 08:27 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Dick: I will. By advanced-level programming I think of something like a > >COM text; dense stuff. Paul > > > >On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > > > >> At 03:58 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote: > >> >I can't even read advanced-level programming materials at that rate, much > >> >less index it??? Some of these rates people have been quoting do not seem > >> >credible. Paul D. buell > >> > >> Sigh. I specifically said run-of-the-mill books. Next time you are in > >> Raleigh, you are welcome to watch. > >> > >> Dick > > Paul, > > Just between you and me, I thought the same thing you did--how can they do > it that fast? I think, maybe, it explains the piss poor quality of some of > the indexes I see as a book selector. > > And I don't think you were calling anyone a liar. It does seem incredible. > > Anne > Anne Cleester Taylor > University of Missouri-St. Louis > Thomas Jefferson Library Reference > sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu > http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:42:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Directory error Nancy Humphreys, If you would kindly respond to my phone messages, I'd be glad to discuss this with you. Fred Leise Chair, ASI Indexer Services Committee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710171630.JAA09990@mx3.u.washington.edu> I still doubt one can do a decent index at the speeds indicated. The text must be awfully light. So I am with Anne. As for speed reading of texts, just try that with complex academic books. Yes, I know the real world out there wants always more or less, but that is a game I play only up to a certain point. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > Ann Taylor wrote: > > > >Paul, > > > >Just between you and me, > > You may have meant it to be just between you and Paul, but you posted it to > the list. > > > I thought the same thing you did--how can they do > >it that fast? > > I, and several others, have explained repeatedly how it is done: relatively > simple material with which we are intimately familiar, low density text, > and the figures everyone is dithering about reflect only the reading/markup > time, not total indexing time. What part of that do you find incredible? > > I too have seen things posted to the list that I found hard to believe. > However, in every case where I have taken the time to ask for more > information, the statements have proven true and reasonable *given the > context from which the poster was speaking.* > > > > think, maybe, it explains the piss poor quality of some of > >the indexes I see as a book selector. > > >And I don't think you were calling anyone a liar. It does seem incredible. > > According to Webster: Incredible -- too extraordinary and improbable to be > believed. > > So, I guess if I'm not being called a liar I am being called an incompetent. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Keeping clients after a move In-Reply-To: <199710170839.BAA04798@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> Hi (I'm not sure who actually asked this. Rachel or Leslie?), I think part of whether you may be to retain local clients after a move depends on the clients. I have some local clients who heavily use express couriers (not Fedex, etc. but the really expensive ones that will deliver between us within 2 to 4 hours). These tend to be high tech companies, including software companies, and packagers working for such companies with very tight turnarounds. They tend to be the same folks that you're on the phone with at odd hours of the night (because they're also pulling frantic all-nighters) or are personally on your doorstep late in the evening, on Sundays, etc. These seem to be the same clients who form *very* close working relationships with their freelancers, inviting them to open houses, and treat them (in totally nonIRS-related ways) as well as valued employees. (I think this is because of the intense "we're in this same nightmare together"/strong teamwork mentality formed in working with them.) At least, these are the ones I'd fear I'd lose if I ever left Southern California. I have moved my business (though without changing business address/phone number, etc.) and have one word of advice about moving in general. We packed up the essentials of my office last and unpacked them first in our new residence. This minimized the actual "down time" of the office, which was important because I had a 900+pager (with a five day turnaround) due in the day after we actually moved. I didn't do any packing or unpacking of anything other than office stuff during the move, which allowed me to get right to work on the 900+pager when it came in the next day. But then I was fortunate to have three other adults in my household who handled everything else in the move. I still wouldn't recommend taking on a big, fast-turnaround book right after a move if you can avoid it. (I had to do it to help pay for the move.) ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:47:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) At 11:18 AM 10/17/1997 -0400, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >Keri is absolutely right, the Internet is full of great resources; my only >reservation is about the producers of some of the sites--how reliable is >their scholarship? If the source is an electronic version of a print >version, I tend to feel more comfortable with the online source. > >As for local libraries: It depends on where you live and your library, I >guess. I have a reasonably good public library, and I do spend a fair amount of time cruising online reference sources. But for some things, there is nothing like holding a book in your hand and flipping the pages. If all I need is a correct spelling or the date a movie was made, I can find that out immediately via the Internet or the library online catalog. But if I'm looking for a synonym, I like to thumb through my thesaurus and follow the various threads it presents. While you can do this online of course, for me it just works better to have a real book in my hands. There's a place for every one of these reference sources, and I for one doubt I will ever "go electronic" completely. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:01:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) << While you can do this online of course, for me it just works better to have a real book in my hands. There's a place for every one of these reference sources, and I for one doubt I will ever "go electronic" completely. >> As Sonsie said, I love the feel of the book in my hand, and I think no matter how much I use online and CD reference sources, I will continue to keep reference books at home too. I simply love books. For that reason, I'm an antique book collector too. Nothing replaces the tactile feel of a book in the hand! I respect and use electronic reference sources, but may the old-fashioned book live on forever! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:34:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? Check your yellow pages under computer stores/rentals. Our organization had to rent one once and it worked out fine. If I can remember it came with the most common software of the time, Windows 3.1, wordprocessing, etc. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 11:26 AM 10/17/97 EDT, you wrote: >I didn't know one could rent a laptop. Could you give me some >more information? What stores? How much? What programs are on >these laptops? Thanks for the idea. > >Sean O. > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) In-Reply-To: <971017125909_-1192732174@emout13.mail.aol.com> And not only that, but it's almost invariable quicker to look it up in a book. Rachel PS Thanks to all responses to my questions. You are all very helpful. I might not be able to respond to everyone individually, and I'll be away all next week. Wish me luck house hunting. ><< While you can do this online of course, for me it just works better to >have a real book in my hands. There's a place for every one of these >reference sources, and I for one doubt I will ever "go electronic" >completely. >> > >As Sonsie said, I love the feel of the book in my hand, and I think no matter >how much I use online and CD reference sources, I will continue to keep >reference books at home too. I simply love books. For that reason, I'm an >antique book collector too. > >Nothing replaces the tactile feel of a book in the hand! I respect and use >electronic reference sources, but may the old-fashioned book live on forever! > >Janet Perlman >Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:51:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: The Feel of Paper Sonsie wrote, > I have a reasonably good public library, and I do spend a fair amount of > time cruising online reference sources. But for some things, there is > nothing like holding a book in your hand and flipping the pages. This is an aging trend. Students in the 1990s have learned to use CD-ROM and online references before books, and the advantages to looking up quick-reference information with a computer outweigh the "old-fashioned" pleasures of paper. Eight-year-olds are more likely to type "webster lugubrious" at a Unix terminal than to stick their thumb into a dictionary's L tab. And who knows how to use the tabs on a thesaurus any more? I predict that in fifty years people will be saying, "Can you imagine reading from paper? It was heavy, stained your hands, cut your fingers, and you couldn't perform a text search. Dictionaries and citation lists were *separate documents*, and if you didn't pay a ton of money to buy them, you had to travel someplace just to view them, but you weren't allowed to take them with you. You had to pay for every 1000 words you wanted copied, and the more you copied, the harder they got to read. And heaven forbid you carry those copies on a rainy day!" Computers really are great tools when it comes to text: searching, processing, copying, forwarding, and even indexing. The tools can be misused, of course, and they are harder to maintain and operate. But paper really *is* inconvenient compared to blips of light on a screen. The trend away from paper makes a lot of sense. I want to add that there a lot of people who have no idea that indexers exist. Indexing skills are behind good book indexes, Web page navigational structures, online directories, and computer help files. Yet when I tell people that I'm an indexer, they say, "What's that?" As if that weren't enough, when I tell them what indexers do, they say, "So, like, someone gives you a book, and you read it and decide what's important? And people pay you for this?" It amazes me people still know how to learn from books in the first place. :-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:52:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <9710171748.AA29901@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Another reason for the shift from paper: some reference works are now too big to publish. I will shortly be working on a 60,000 page plus documentation. Ain't been paper in years. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Seth A. Maislin wrote: > Sonsie wrote, > > > I have a reasonably good public library, and I do spend a fair amount of > > time cruising online reference sources. But for some things, there is > > nothing like holding a book in your hand and flipping the pages. > > > This is an aging trend. Students in the 1990s have learned > to use CD-ROM and online references before books, and the advantages to > looking up quick-reference information with a computer outweigh the > "old-fashioned" pleasures of paper. Eight-year-olds are more likely > to type "webster lugubrious" at a Unix terminal than to stick their > thumb into a dictionary's L tab. And who knows how to use the tabs > on a thesaurus any more? > > I predict that in fifty years people will be saying, > "Can you imagine reading from paper? It was heavy, stained your hands, > cut your fingers, and you couldn't perform a text search. Dictionaries and > citation lists were *separate documents*, and if you didn't pay a ton of > money to buy them, you had to travel someplace just to view them, but you > weren't allowed to take them with you. You had to pay for every 1000 words > you wanted copied, and the more you copied, the harder they got to read. > And heaven forbid you carry those copies on a rainy day!" > > Computers really are great tools when it comes to text: searching, processing, > copying, forwarding, and even indexing. The tools can be misused, of course, > and they are harder to maintain and operate. But paper really *is* > inconvenient compared to blips of light on a screen. The trend away from > paper makes a lot of sense. > > I want to add that there a lot of people who have no idea that indexers exist. > Indexing skills are behind good book indexes, Web page navigational structures, > online directories, and computer help files. Yet when I tell people that I'm > an indexer, they say, "What's that?" As if that weren't enough, when I tell > them what indexers do, they say, "So, like, someone gives you a book, and > you read it and decide what's important? And people pay you for this?" > It amazes me people still know how to learn from books in the first place. :-) > > - Seth > > -- > Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN > > O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services > 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street > Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 > (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 > (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com > URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN > Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:08:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: The Feel of Paper - Reply >>> "Seth A. Maislin" wrote, I predict that in fifty years people will be saying, "Can you imagine reading from paper?"...But paper really *is* inconvenient compared to blips of light on a screen. The trend away from paper makes a lot of sense. I'm afraid you may be right; I just hope that in fifty years they've found a way to make our eyes adapt to reading from computer screens. I've done an awful lot of reading-from-paper over the years, and I *never* found it in the least bit uncomfortable; I find reading from a computer screen downright miserable. I certainly wouldn't do it for fun. Although that's an age-related behavior, too; I don't think kids these days read for fun. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:26:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper At 01:51 PM 10/17/1997 -0400, Seth A. Maislin wrote: >This is an aging trend. Students in the 1990s have learned >to use CD-ROM and online references before books, and the advantages to >looking up quick-reference information with a computer outweigh the >"old-fashioned" pleasures of paper. Eight-year-olds are more likely >to type "webster lugubrious" at a Unix terminal than to stick their >thumb into a dictionary's L tab. And who knows how to use the tabs >on a thesaurus any more? Books on paper are a "TREND"??? Augghhh! >I predict that in fifty years people will be saying, >"Can you imagine reading from paper? It was heavy, stained your hands, >cut your fingers, and you couldn't perform a text search. Dictionaries and >citation lists were *separate documents*, and if you didn't pay a ton of >money to buy them, you had to travel someplace just to view them, but you >weren't allowed to take them with you. You had to pay for every 1000 words >you wanted copied, and the more you copied, the harder they got to read. >And heaven forbid you carry those copies on a rainy day!" And right now, I can say that computer screens are hard to read from, most are not at all portable, and only the relatively wealthy and educated even have them in their homes. The few that exist in public locations like libraries are busy all the time. Imagine having to wait in line for 15 minutes to look up "lugubrious in an online dictionary when you can pick up a paperback at your local drugstore for $5 and check that word instantly...or use the free (and available) assortment at the library. And heaven forfend that you should carry your $3000 laptop around on a rainy day...let alone try to lug your desktop computer anywhere at all in any weather. >Computers really are great tools when it comes to text: searching, processing, >copying, forwarding, and even indexing. The tools can be misused, of course, >and they are harder to maintain and operate. But paper really *is* >inconvenient compared to blips of light on a screen. The trend away from >paper makes a lot of sense. Yes, I love my computer and I don't think I want to contemplate life without it...and without the wonderful resources of the Internet and the Web and that vast collection of CD-ROMs out there. But blips of light on a screen are hard to read for long periods of time (I can't even imagine reading _Moby Dick_ on my computer), and you can't a blip into the bathtub. A blip doesn't have that wonderful aroma that old, musty books have...or freshly printed ones, either. A blip doesn't evoke memories of childhood (when was the last time you read that copy of _When We Were Six_ you have stashed on your shelf?), and it doesn't "save" well. You can't stash blips filled with memories, scribbles, and so forth...only floppy disks. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:49:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper - Reply I suspect the legibility of paper print compared to screen pixels is at least as much psychological as physiological. I find that my onscreen reading/editing improves with use. BUT, to me the genuine constraint on electronic communications is dependence on outside forces, such as power generation, presents genuine threat in a world weighted toward electronic information. I think the wise persons and repositories will have hard copy backups. Also, electronic information might lead to be backsliding from the democratization of information through inexpensive book, publishing. Even though electronics appear inexpensive (and prices plummet by developed world standards), the expense is incremental. One can buy a book once and read it during daytime. Other than at public institutions, electronic information contines to require payment--at least for power. 02:08 PM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>> "Seth A. Maislin" wrote, > >I predict that in fifty years people will be saying, >"Can you imagine reading from paper?"...But paper really *is* >inconvenient compared to blips of light on a screen. The trend away from >paper makes a lot of sense. > >I'm afraid you may be right; I just hope that in fifty years they've found >a way to make our eyes adapt to reading from computer screens. I've done >an awful lot of reading-from-paper over the years, and I *never* found >it in the least bit uncomfortable; I find reading from a computer screen >downright miserable. I certainly wouldn't do it for fun. Although that's >an age-related behavior, too; I don't think kids these days read for fun. > >Pauline Sholtys >psholtys@grolier.com > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:53:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Duly punished Some will be amused to know that the fates have just punished me for my hasty use of the 'send' key. I've had to accept a turgid book with no index whatsoever, and a piss poor bibliography, because a faculty member wants it. $US35 of my precious budget, plus cataloguing costs, down a rat hole. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:11:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper - Reply -Reply Actually, computer screens are hard on the eyes-- there are physiological reasons, not psychological ones. Computer screens emit light; paper absorbs light. The emitted light is being shined directly into your eyes-- the effect is much like staring at a low wattage light bulb for hours on end. Screen positioning is a factor, too. Most of us have our monitors on top of desks. Therefore, we are looking directly at it, and our eyes are opened to their fullest. When most of us read books, they are lying flat on surfaces or being held at lap-level. We are looking down, and our eyes are almost closed (which may explain the propensity to doze!). Ergonomics specialists realize this and try to correct the problem with those funky desks you may have seen with the monitor mounted below the desk surface and covered with non-glare, tinted glass. These are pretty cool, but our company has them in our training room, and after using them I've discovered one big hazard-- shin damage! I kept kicking against the shelf! Also, we now have 17" monitors, and these just don't fit on those little shelves. Books are just too convenient to give up completely, although I grant you that computers make information management and retrieval remarkably easy, when they work. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:18:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper - Reply - Reply Pam, I didn't say the computer screen wasn't legible, although I do have trouble with, for example, my e-mail, which appears in extremely tiny print and is not able to be enlarged. I find that my eyes hurt after looking at the screen for any length of time, unlike reading a book; also, I find it stressful on my neck and back to sit at the screen reading, whereas when reading a book, I don't have to sit in the same position for hours. And if these things bother me now, I can imagine how they'll affect me in fifty years! :-) I suppose it could be psychological, but I'm not aware of any resistance to computers on my part; I simply find it easier to read print on paper. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:18:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Software manuals (was: Medical index) In-Reply-To: <199710171645.JAA28512@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 09:39 AM 10/17/97 -0700, Paul wrote: >Anne: in general the quality of most computer manual indexing is matched >only by the quality of the text. I have bid on some of these jobs and >continued to be amazed how little respect there is for indexers in the >computer field in general. What, edit your index, unheard of. Have >sufficient time to work, how could you want that? Index a completed text, >what a strange request? I don't do it any more. Paul, As one who indexes computer manuals, my mileage has varied greatly from yours. There *are* some software companies who do want good indexes to their manuals and are willing to pay accordingly. The manuals for these particular companies' products are also well-written, despite being produced under extreme deadline pressure. Yes, it is true that many software companies give you absurdly short turnaround times, but I've had one software company with such leisurely production schedules that they've waited weeks for me to be available, then invariably gave me plenty of time to complete the index. And the ones that I've worked for with the "one-day-wonder" schedules have been willing to pay nice premiums the extra effort in meeting their deadlines. Another advantage I've found with software companies that is conducive to good indexing is that their writers are invariably, readily available if anything is confusing or misleading in the text. I've had software company writers go as far as to generate whole system printouts of the software (on an engineering level), extensively query the engineers, etc. in order to resolve indexing questions I've had. (This also has led to the writers rewriting text, programmers finding bugs that started the confusion in the first place, etc. So the indexing can, in fact, aid in developing a superior product and manual.) Yet other advantages are that I've never been given space restrictions by software companies and most of them give you plenty of style leeway so you can do what best serves the reader in your professional judgement. Respect their indexers? Here's what just one of my software company clients has done the following for me over the years: a) paid me a decent base per page rate; b) invariably cheerfully paid me extra when projects incurred unforeseen extra work on my part (aside from rush premiums)--even last month telling me I undercharged them for printing--including *doubling* my per page fee when their writers made too many changes to a book I indexed and I had to make major changes to the index; c) sent me a big tin of Mrs. Field's cookies as a thank you for a rush job (in addition to paying a rush premium); d) called me to see if I was alright on the night of the Northridge earthquake (along with their employees) though their own offices were heavily damaged; e) sent me an earthquake info package via expensive Saturday Fedex (despite the fact I was totally alright); f) sends me Christmas cards annually; g) sent me a get well basket of flowers just day before yesterday; and h) puts my name in their manuals along with everyone else who worked on the product/manual; i) pays in two weeks. (Not only do I feel respected as an indexer, but downright loved by these folks. ;-D) Maybe it's my military background, but I rather enjoy the special camaraderie that comes from the craziness of working with a bunch of people under insane pressures to accomplish an impossible goal and we end up laughing in giddy exhaustion over the phone once it's done. I admit that this isn't for everyone. ;-D The software company that I said always gives me plenty of time for their manuals has, in addition to paying well, actually sat me down in their conference room to teach me their programming environment, and gave me such a good grounding in object-oriented programming (on which their software development products are based) that it's served me well over the years in working on OOP books for other programming languages for other clients. I suspect that they did this because they wanted good indexes to their manuals. ;-D IOW, don't totally write off the software industry. It sounds like you've run into the really bad apples. There are some very good potential clients out there who will treat you very well if you're willing to work with their admittedly hellish production schedules, rewrites, 6am courier pickups and deliveries, etc. Not everyone is willing to do work under these conditions for any amount of money, but I actually use flexibility and understanding of the craziness of the high-tech development environment as a marketing point, setting my rates accordingly. OTOH, there are computer book (traditional) publishers who want to give you equally bad turnaround times and offer you a pitiful $3 a page as a *rush premium*; never put your name in the book; pay only after repeated phone calls, etc.! I'll take my "disrespectful" software companies any day over that. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:54:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: CD-ROM Resources [sort of] If the OED will be costing $900 for a disk, perhaps you might try their Web site: http://www.oed.com/dictsframe.html Haven't tried it recently, so maybe it's disappeared. I also lucked out recently while visiting a friend: I noticed that she had TWO copies of the miniaturized OED on her bookshelf. When I asked her if I might buy one she GAVE it to me! Admittedly, we help out each other with computer problems and she may have felt it was sort of a payment for some past work, though we both prefer cash; indeed, the OED had been given to her to pay for some previous work on *her* part. Being as horribly myopic as I am, reading the pages without a magnifier is a cinch: just remove my glasses! Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:07:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) In-Reply-To: <199710171703.KAA14271@mx3.u.washington.edu> Sonsie: but at what price. I recently received a review copy of a book retailing at $245.00 US. But for the review copy, there is no way I would ever own this book. Some books are now in the $400.00 a copy range. No, I don't like CD-ROM books much either, but if the choice is nothing. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Sonsie wrote: > At 11:18 AM 10/17/1997 -0400, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > > >Keri is absolutely right, the Internet is full of great resources; my only > >reservation is about the producers of some of the sites--how reliable is > >their scholarship? If the source is an electronic version of a print > >version, I tend to feel more comfortable with the online source. > > > >As for local libraries: It depends on where you live and your library, I > >guess. > > I have a reasonably good public library, and I do spend a fair amount of > time cruising online reference sources. But for some things, there is > nothing like holding a book in your hand and flipping the pages. If all I > need is a correct spelling or the date a movie was made, I can find that out > immediately via the Internet or the library online catalog. But if I'm > looking for a synonym, I like to thumb through my thesaurus and follow the > various threads it presents. While you can do this online of course, for me > it just works better to have a real book in my hands. > > There's a place for every one of these reference sources, and I for one > doubt I will ever "go electronic" completely. > > =Sonsie= > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:08:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? In-Reply-To: <199710171735.KAA18237@mx3.u.washington.edu> Laptops are freely available for rental in my market area (Seattle) but the rentals are expensive, a couple of hundred, as I remember, for using one for a little over a week. Not practical for continuing use. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Roberta Horowitz wrote: > Check your yellow pages under computer stores/rentals. Our organization had > to rent one once and it worked out fine. If I can remember it came with the > most common software of the time, Windows 3.1, wordprocessing, etc. > > Roberta Horowitz > rhorowitz@acm.org > > > At 11:26 AM 10/17/97 EDT, you wrote: > >I didn't know one could rent a laptop. Could you give me some > >more information? What stores? How much? What programs are on > >these laptops? Thanks for the idea. > > > >Sean O. > > > >> > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:12:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Chat Room 24 Hours a Day The AOL Chat Room is available 24 hours a day. Not just the weekly meeting on Monday nights. You just need the key to the door to get in. I would like to see it being used at any time that is convenient for you. So just E-mail me for the link and whenever you want to chat you can click on it and see if anyone is home. There has been a lot of interest in the chats but only four or five showing up on Monday nights. Anytime you are checking you mail and have time to chat just pop in and see if anyone is there. Maybe that way we will be able to set several times that are good. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:13:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Software manuals (was: Medical index) In-Reply-To: <199710171929.MAA18745@mx2.u.washington.edu> Lynn: the way you describe it is the way it should be. Alas it is not so in our overheated Puget sound environment (although there could be some exceptions that I don't know about). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: laptop use/recommendations I don't know why they don't make a lap top a little bigger so the key board would be the same as the standard keyboard and the monitor would be a little bigger. The main thing is for it not to be so heavy you can't carry it. I always think of these great invention a day late and a dollar short so maybe there is one out there. If so I would like to buy one. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:30:12 -0400 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Windows Help indexing tool Sageline Publishing announces the release of Windexer, a Windows Help online indexing tool for adding, editing, managing WinHelp keywords. www.sageline.com -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" www.sageline.com "The home of Windexer" Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:32:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In a message dated 97-10-17 13:51:08 EDT, you write: << I predict that in fifty years people will be saying, "Can you imagine reading from paper? It was heavy, stained your hands, cut your fingers, and you couldn't perform a text search. >> I hope not! Oh, I hope not! I am an admitted computer junkie. I can't get enough of my computer at times and work best straight to the computer, BUT... I love books, I don't get repetitive stress problems from books, real books. I can curl back on a comfy sofa or chair, in the tub, on the porch swing, and enjoy a fun or good read. And think of everyone reading books/papers/magazines on buses and trains and carpools. I don't think laptops will replace that pleasure. Perhaps for information gathering the computers will be more popular (although I agree that a dictionary's more convenient than a computer), but for anything else, I think (hope) paper's here to stay. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:44:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) At 01:07 PM 10/17/1997 -0700, P. Buell wrote: >Sonsie: but at what price. I recently received a review copy of a book >retailing at $245.00 US. But for the review copy, there is no way I would >ever own this book. Some books are now in the $400.00 a copy range. No, I >don't like CD-ROM books much either, but if the choice is nothing. How can I argue with this? Some precious book resources are priced beyond what any but the wealthiest mortal can pay. I'm eternally grateful that we all can have access to them for a lesser price...even with the attendant inconveniences. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:44:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations At 04:22 PM 10/17/1997 -0400, Susan Wilkerson wrote: >I don't know why they don't make a lap top a little bigger so the key board >would be the same as the standard keyboard and the monitor would be a little >bigger. The main thing is for it not to be so heavy you can't carry it. I >always think of these great invention a day late and a dollar short so maybe >there is one out there. If so I would like to buy one. There ARE a number of laptops with full-sized keyboards...but they are a little heavier and a little bulkier. Many do have the 90%-size keyboards to save weight and bulk, but if you don't want one, you don't have to settle for a smaller model. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:51:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710171653.JAA18015@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> I really don't want to step into the middle of this or heat this up any more than it already is, but I really think that Dick isn't being treated with the full decency that we should expect from one another here. It's gone beyond an issue of whether one can do a good index at whatever speed. His very credibility and/or competency has been challenged here, however subtly, and I don't think that's fair to do to any list member, especially when they haven't given any evidence to the contrary (which Dick hasn't). If he says that he can index a given number of pages/hr, and he *has* repeatedly qualified his remarks, why can't he be taken at his word? I'll go as far as to say that he is indeed a competent, experienced indexer of computer books, one to whom I'd have no problem referring any of my own clients to. In fact, I tried to refer the publisher of the book on which I was working on when I had the heart attack to him (but the publisher already had someone else in mind). Among the technical indexers who came to mind, I knew for certain that he had a lot of experience in indexing object-oriented programming books, which was the subject of the book I was working on. And, as Janet said earlier in this thread, speed has a lot to do with experience. Believe me, if you can wade through OOP, you can breeze through average and introductory computer texts like those he was describing. But, even if I didn't know of his experience, I still think he should be taken at his word. We can't support each other if we don't trust and respect each other, IMHO. Anyway, as I said, I really didn't want to step into the middle of this, nor make enemies of neither Paul nor Anne (Taylor). But I just couldn't sit back and see Dick just hanging out there with no one to back him up when his credibility and competency is being challenged, however subtly. Sorry, I'm just finding this thread very painful to read as it (d)evolves. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:54:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations I don't remember where I saw it (I think at a computer store) but there is a company that does make a full size keyboard that goes over a personal computer keyboard. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 01:44 PM 10/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 04:22 PM 10/17/1997 -0400, Susan Wilkerson wrote: > >>I don't know why they don't make a lap top a little bigger so the key board >>would be the same as the standard keyboard and the monitor would be a little >>bigger. The main thing is for it not to be so heavy you can't carry it. I >>always think of these great invention a day late and a dollar short so maybe >>there is one out there. If so I would like to buy one. > >There ARE a number of laptops with full-sized keyboards...but they are a >little heavier and a little bulkier. Many do have the 90%-size keyboards to >save weight and bulk, but if you don't want one, you don't have to settle >for a smaller model. > > =Sonsie= > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:43:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: Fred Leise, Lynn Moncreif, Dick's reading speed Fred, I don't know why you posted this personal message to me via the Index-L list. As far as I am aware, you called me once, and I replied via= e-mail that I would call you back sometime this week. If you need to contact me before then, my correct e-mail address is in the Indexer Services Directory! Lynn, I'm really glad you're back! I appreciated your= post-hospital-release post, especially the warnings of what to watch out for! And Dick, I believe you! My partner, who had to sneak books in bed with a flashlight to read anything, reads and comprehends at an incredibl= y fast rate. It's like being with Data of Star Trek fame..... "Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:42:31 -0400 From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Directory error Nancy Humphreys, If you would kindly respond to my phone messages, I'd be glad to discuss this with you. Fred Leise Chair, ASI Indexer Services Committee" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:10:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper Sharon Wright opined: >Actually, computer screens are hard on the eyes-- >there are physiological reasons, not psychological >ones..... Exactly right! And, one additional factor: the quality of the letters, expressed in pixels per inch or centimeter, is at least 10 times better for a well-printed book. Even laser printers routinely produce 600 or 1200 pixels per inch, and who has a screen with more than one-tenth that? This results in characters with gaps and jagged lines, and hampers the function of serifs (which aid the eye in rapid, effortless recognition of letters and whole words). All that said, never forget that computer technology is still moving fast, and screens will get better, easier to read, and more portable. However, the difference between emitted and absorbed light (for CRT's, at any rate) and the prohibition against reading from them in the bathtub will be with us for a long, long time. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:10:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Medical index Lynn Moncrief wrote, in part: >I really don't want to step into the middle of this or heat this up any >more than it already is, but I really think that Dick isn't being treated >with the full decency that we should expect from one another here. I have been away for a few days, or I would have pitched in earlier. This is exactly the problem I have with this discussion. People seem to be shooting off quick reactions to statements out of context, and talking past each other. I am pleased at the restraint Dick has shown in his public responses. I could not blame him if he responded privately with a bit more.. ah.. colorful language. If you think a statement made here looks dubious, write an email to the individual privately, asking for some clarification. This kind of public impugning of someone's credibility and professional standards should be beneath us all. There may be some hacks and charlatans using this list, but Dick Evans is not one of them. I attended a roundtable led by Dick a few years ago at an ASI conference. The types of computer books he indexes can often be handled with a kind of formulaic or template approach, organizing commands and functions in a certain way, which he developed to improve indexing consistency and efficiency. This method is entirely appropriate for the books he uses it for, and it makes the job completely different from, say, indexing a biography or a scholarly book on computer science. When this thread started, there was an opportunity for us to learn from the different styles used and kinds of material encountered by all the people on the list. Unfortunately, the discussion has slid down to a level where assumptions about index quality are being made with no information as a basis for these conclusions. This should stop. Those of us who are concerned about the atmosphere and tone of this list need to speak up when this kind of trash happens. You want to compare indexing rates and speeds? I once indexed a 100-page book for $1 a page. It turned out to pay a better hourly rate than most books I have done, since it only took me 3.5 hours, start to finish. Was it any good? The people at the press said "it's the best [..type of book omitted..] index I've ever seen." Believe it? Do you think you have enough information to judge? We'll see. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:37:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Indexing positions available at H.W. Wilson Company Dear Index-Llers: I'm forwarding this job notice that I saw on the Library Jobs listserve last Friday. H.W. Wilson needs some indexers. Jean A. Thompson **********FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS************************************* From: IN%"drobinson@hwwilson.com" 17-OCT-1997 14:34:54.39 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:42:23 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Robinson / Indexing Services Subject: Positions available at The H.W. Wilson Company The following full-time positions are available at the H. W. Wilson Company, publisher of print and electronic library reference materials. Applied Science and Technology Index Indexer: Electrical Engineering degree required; with an optics and physics background. Biological and Agricultural Index Indexer: B.S. degree with a Biology major required; with strengths in microbiology, genetics, ecology, and related subjects. MLS desired, but not required. Art Index-Retro Indexer: Art History degree required. MLS and/or knowledge of AACR2 preferable. Foreign languages helpful: German, Spanish, or Italian. Library Literature: Indexer: MLS required, with cataloging experience helpful. Knowledge of French, German, or Italian helpful. Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature: Indexer: MLS required with a B.A. or B.S. in Liberal Arts with a general subject background. Standard Catalogs: Cataloger: MLS required with experience in library collection development. Computer literacy desirable. Knowledge of, or interest in, contemporary drama helpful. Competitive salary and liberal benefits package including four weeks vacation. Additional information about the H.W. Wilson Company can be found our website at http://www.hwwilson.com . Please send your resume and indicate the position you are applying for along with salary history and requirements via fax, e-mail, or postal mail to: Office of Personnel Administration The H.W. Wilson Company 950 University Avenue Bronx, N.Y. 10452-4224 Fax: 718-538-2716 E-mail: jobs@hwwilson.com No phone calls please ****************************************************************** * LIBJOBS is a free service provided by the International * * Federation of Library Associations. For individual * * membership information, contact: ifla.hq@ifla.nl * * * * URL: www.ifla.org * ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:20:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? In a message dated 10/16/97 11:21:40 PM, Carol wrote: >Leslie, you didn't say whether you were looking for DOS-based or Mac. >Anyway, here's a viewpoint from the Mac side. I bought a used PowerBook 145 >with a Targus case for $600. Cindex and MS Word run just fine on it. The >guy who sold it to us had already ruined the battery (he didn't know about >the memory effect and had constantly recharged it without letting it run >down). So we bought a new kind of battery from BTI that runs for 4 hrs. and >can be recharged any time, without having to run it down first. I also have a Powerbook with a battery that needs replacing. I have been delaying getting a new battery because Apple wants about $120 for a battery that will work with my Powerbook 140. Is this BTI battery a better deal? Where did you get it? Do you know if it is compatible with my older 140? I'll stop treating Carol like the Oracle at Delphi not. Thanks in advance for information. Beth ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:40:48 -0700 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Indexing positions available at The H.W. Wilson Company (retrieved from LIBJOBS) To anyone interested: I am posting this message originally sent to the LIBJOBS discussion group in case anyone is interested. Please do NOT reply to me directly. Regards. Lucie Haskins > > Subject: Positions available at The H.W. Wilson Company > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 15:42:23 +0000 > From: Dan Robinson / Indexing Services > > The following full-time positions are available at the H. W. Wilson > Company, publisher of print and electronic library reference > materials. > > Applied Science and Technology Index > Indexer: Electrical Engineering degree required; with an optics and > physics background. > > Biological and Agricultural Index > Indexer: B.S. degree with a Biology major required; with strengths > in microbiology, genetics, ecology, and related subjects. MLS > desired, but not required. > > Art Index-Retro > Indexer: Art History degree required. MLS and/or knowledge of AACR2 > preferable. Foreign languages helpful: German, Spanish, or Italian. > > Library Literature: > Indexer: MLS required, with cataloging experience helpful. > Knowledge of French, German, or Italian helpful. > > Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature: > Indexer: MLS required with a B.A. or B.S. in Liberal Arts with a > general subject background. > > Standard Catalogs: > Cataloger: MLS required with experience in library collection > development. Computer literacy desirable. Knowledge of, or interest > in, contemporary drama helpful. > > Competitive salary and liberal benefits package including four weeks > vacation. Additional information about the H.W. Wilson Company can be > found our website at http://www.hwwilson.com . > > Please send your resume and indicate the position you are applying for > along with salary history and requirements via fax, e-mail, or postal > mail to: > > Office of Personnel Administration > The H.W. Wilson Company > 950 University Avenue > Bronx, N.Y. 10452-4224 > > Fax: 718-538-2716 > E-mail: jobs@hwwilson.com > > No phone calls please > > --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:15:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottesen Subject: An End to Speed -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hi all: How about this? YOUR speed should satisfy YOUR customers, YOUR pocketbook, and YOUR sense of a job well done. Everyone else can take a flying leap...(lovingly of course). Can we please stop this thread now? Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:47:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sindexer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Medical index I agree wholeheartedly with Carolyn Weaver. I have been indexing, professionally and freelance, since 1980, both books and journals in the medical and scientific field. I find clinical material much easier, and could possibly do 20 pages per hour on that. Experimental medicine, however, is another story. Immunology or genetics, I might not even do 7 per hour. I don't, by the way, do mark-up. I decided years ago that for me it was not necessary. Sally Lawther ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:20:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: The Feel of Paper - Reply It isn't difficult to imagine the future without books: For posture practice, children will walk around balancing computers on top of their heads. When cops arrest a bad guy the Sergeant will say, "Computer him." If you want to bet on a horse race you'll call your favorite computerie. We will refer to a fast-moving car by saying, "It was computerin' on down the road." I doubt that preachers will refer to "The Good Computer." Someone who adheres to accepted norms will be going by the computer Hopefully, when you call for hotel reservations, they won't be all computered up. Will an avid reader be called a computerworm? Can you imagine kids pressing leaves and flowers between the chips of a computer? And finally, college students cramming for an exam will be hitting the computers. Not a bad idea, come to think of it. Just having fun... Craig Brown ===================================== The Last Word Indexing (314)352-9094 lastword@i1.net ===================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:21:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Snape Subject: HELP with my index from hell! Hello listers! I'm a lurker who is a MLS student at the Univ of Wi - Madison and I really could use some help! I am doing a project for my indexing class that involves developing an index for a club newsletter, mounting it on the WWW and then creating links to related web sites. So far, Cindex has been REMARKABLY uncooperative. You wouldn't even believe the trauma just to get a print copy - or maybe you would : ) Anyway, here's the problem, I want import the complete index from a disk - it is in "ndx" format/ cindex 6.0 standard version - to microsoft word - in a windows 95 environment- so that I can mark it up. When my school's computer guru and I tried this, all we could get were "shots" of single screens that were captured using the clipboard function. Any ideas on how to move the whole thing at once? conceivably, I could just move the whole index 1 screen at a time, but as this thing is 16 print pages, I am not finding this an attractive option. I'd appreicate any help or suggestions that anyone might have! TIA Julie - jlsnape@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 07:42:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: ASI Professional Development seminars As the new chairman of the ASI Professional Development Committee, I am looking for new workshops and seminars to add to the ASI Professional Development Seminars list. In particular, I am interested in hearing from presenters/facilitators who might be interested in presenting workshops/seminars in the following areas: 1) CD-ROM indexing 2) Web site indexing 3) database indexing 4) specialty subject area indexing (scientific, medical, legal, etc.) 5) classification theory and indexing 6) indexing personal names (onomastics) 7) genealogy and indexing 8) newspaper and newsletter indexing Other topic suggestions will be considered as well, if you have a topic not related to those listed above. PLEASE reply to me personally at cbertel@usit.net, not to INDEX-L. I will be glad to provide those interested with particulars of this ASI program. Presenters/facilitators do receive compensation for their efforts for this program. Cynthia D. Bertelsen ASI Board member cbertel@usit.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:42:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: working in the software industry I have to add my two cents to Lynn's -- the software industry is not all bad. That's a judgement that just does not apply across the board. I have some great clients who treat me with respect, ask how long I think it will take to index a piece, and try to give me that time. I had one large one in Redmond, WA, (commonly known as the evil empire) who sent a spare computer home with me so that I could stay with my cat when he was wasting away with feline aids (FIV), and were really sympathetic, even when it meant I worked from home for 3 weeks during an intense online index project. I have had software company clients send me chocolate for my late nights and weekends, white chocolate cause they knew that was my favorite - nummy! It depends so much on what group you wind up working with. Many of the companies I have worked for have won awards in the Society for Technical Communication's annual International competition for their documentation sets, so what these follks are producing is not terrible, poorly written materials, but carefully planned and usability tested documentation sets, and they are proud of their work. And some product groups within Microsoft actually spend the time (and money) usability testing their online indexes as well, trying to be sure that the approach is right and that it works. There's a lot of bad stuff out there, a lot of craziness and poor planning, and a lot of bad indexing gets done late at night before ship date. But there are also people who are really trying to do documentation right and they care about the indexes in their pieces. What is hard about working in the industry is feeling out the group who is asking you to index for them, and seeing if you can tell ahead of time if their processes are too crazy to work with. And educating them as to what is needed for a good index. And being firm to get the time you agree to. And as Lynn mentioned, staying flexible. If you can develop a sense about who is good to work for and who isn't, it's fine. Jan C. Wright -- Wright Information Indexing Services -- -- jancw@aol.com -- http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm -- "One has two duties: to be worried and not to be worried." -- E. M. Forster ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:46:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Help needed Hi, Below is part of a message I received from a former student who is now doing some part-time indexing. I don't have a good answer for her problem, but I'm hoping one of you does. She is not on the list, so if anyone has a solution please send it to me and I'll pass it along to her. Thanks, Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca ********* I have a question for you re: an indexing project I'm working on.... I'm doing an index for a computer-driven training program... It's really fun and interesting, and so far has gone really well. I'm just doing the text portion of the program now, but will also include video, still pictures and animation segments. The whole thing will be put together as a CD-ROM product. I've just been doing the index in the traditional way, using "Index-x" to put it together. However, the fellow who is putting the package together using software called Director, now says he can't enter the index terms/locators as we've got them (basically like a back-of-book index with page locators). He needs to have the locators as exact character counts from the ASCII text. Neither he nor I nor anyone involved knows how to get this done! I suggested using MS Word to generate the index, as it allows you to place locators right into the text, but he says that won't translate into ASCII. The question for you then is have you any suggestions for us? How have other people handled indexes that will be searched electronically, and linked right to the text? Do you know of any software that provides exact character counts, if that's what we have to do? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:11:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret Stevenson Subject: Re: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710161907.PAA11493@camel10.mindspring.com> Oops-- answered my own question! Sorry for previous post! Meg At 02:56 PM 10/16/97 EDT, you wrote: >Do you have to be at Microsoft for this position, or is it something one >could do freelance? Suellen > >On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:27:08 -0400 Charlotte Skuster > writes: >>>From: Robin Buckmiller >>>Subject: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers >>>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:31:26 -0700 >>> >>>Bonnie, >>> >>>Here's the job descriptions and reply instructions. Again, please >>note: >>>this is a full-time, on-site position, with salary, benefits, etc. >>>Thanks again! >>> >>>Indexer >>>You are the Go To person for Encarta Encyclopedia and other Reference >>>Business Unit products; writing and editing index entries, retrieving >>>online information, and writing cross references and browse >>hierarchies. >>>Qualifications? A minimum of 4 years' of indexing with an in depth >>>knowledge of indexing principles for multiple entries and levels. >>>Ability to develop synonym, hypernym and hyponym sets and use a >>variety >>>of tools is a must. Knowledge of Microsoft Windows and Office >>preferred. >>>BA/BS degree required. >>> >>>Microsoft offers a competitive salary and excellent benefits. E-mail >>>your resume in ASCII text format to: resume@microsoft.com (indicate >>>Dept. A3ca8-1009 within the text of your resume) or mail to: >>Microsoft >>>Corporation, Attn: Recruiting A3ca8-1009, One Microsoft Way, STE 303, >>>Redmond, WA 98052-8303. No phone calls please. We are an equal >>>opportunity employer and support workplace diversity. >>> >>> >>> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 06:55:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: laptop use as Anne Taylor said: " you can also 'rent' laptops from some computer stores. If you're only gone once or twice a year for a few days to a couple of weeks, this could work out better financially." Yes! --As I type this, I'm in a hotel room in Florida, working out of a 'travel office'. I got called out of my home office on a family emergency Thursday. Wouldn't you know it I sold my old modemless laptop just a couple weeks ago and had not gotten around to replacing it. But I did notice that my favorite xerox/local office place had been advertising laptop rentals of late. I called up Heather, the owner. She didn't have anything on hand, and referred me to someone else. Some of you asked about pricing: To make a long story short, the other fellow's prices were $175/week or month (yes, it's the same price. if you've got it for a week you might as well keep it for a month). He also had a Compaq laptop, plenty of speed, with color monitor, large memory and upgradeable in the future (ie he'll have the memory for a free upgrade if I want in 2 weeks), with trackball, and modem, and whatever software I wanted, and case, and mouse, etc., for $675. Delivery was a mere $50 more to my house in time for me to check it out and drive to the airport on time. Having sold my old black and white same-speed modemless trackballless for $500, original cost for which was $1000, I think I did okay, especially considering the speed of the situation. The fellows at "PCs in a Pinch" were especially helpful, and quite considerate. Nor do I feel they took advantage of my situation, though we did laught about what a 'hard sell' I was being! [and in the meantime, I checked my messages yesterday, and Heather had found me a computer too. I must thank her for her help.] Three rentals would equal the purchase price in this case. I already knew of at least one upcoming situation wherein I would need the rental, not to mention twice a week when I'm sitting out in the hall during my daughter's ballet classes ... so why not. The computer's a beauty. The staff at the hospice where I'm spending my time seem quite intrigued by my activity with this sucker, and they are learning about indexes, to my delight. Not only do you get a computer to go, but you get the opportunity to educate people about indexes -- now that's a deal! Happy indexing, Pilar PS: To all my CEDIT360 students out there, as you can imagine, I didn't get to bring your lessons for grading with me. It looks I'll be here a few more days as I'm now about to start making funereal arrangements, etc. I'll be missing grading this week; my sincere apologies if this affects your schedules sorely. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing * PilarW@aol.com * http://members.aol.com/pilarw/web Committed to the readership that appreciates Great Books ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:59:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Don't Forget AOL Chat Monday Night Don't forget Monday's night chat: 6:30 Pacific, 7:30 Mountain, 8:30 Central, 9:30 Eastern If you need the link to the chat room. E-mail me. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:38:58 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: CD-ROM resources In-Reply-To: <199710180428.XAA21790@mixcom.mixcom.com> I mentioned a few CD-ROMs in my earlier post and didn't mention the local library or the Net, because the question was about CD-ROMs. Still, that is a valid question, why one would buy those CD-ROMs are available for use for free. This is going to make me sound kinda spoiled, but I don't connect to my local library too much, because the connection is via terminal emulation only, which I loathe. As for the Net, I use it a lot. Now that I've upgraded to OS 8 and Netscape 3.0, it's surf city. I'd like to be able to say that I bought those CD-ROMs because those particular items weren't available on the Net. But I confess I didn't search very hard. So are those very resources--Webster's 10th, Time Almanac, American Heritage Talking Dictionary, Grolier's, and Britannica--available either on the Net or at the local libary? (No substitutions.) Which of those are available on the Net? Since they're commercial, I had assumed they wouldn't be or that there would be a monthly subscription fee. What I'm getting at here is, perhaps, the difference between finding facts that are scattered across the Net vs. looking in particular resources whose accuracy I can rely on (a point Cindy alluded to). I tend to use the Net more for buying books, checking ASI news, and downloading shareware than for finding facts. I could probably use some lessons in search techniques; then my fact searching would produce more hits. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:09:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710172053.NAA28281@mx2.u.washington.edu> Lynn: I don't know what to say than to apologize to Dick if he feels the discussion has been directed unfairly at him. Anne and I might have chosen our words a little more carefully. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:04:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper - Reply To extend Pam Rider's comments, "...seems inexpensive....", _ad absurdum_, regarding electronic services: doesn't it seem odd sometimes to require a $2000 machine in order to read a simple reference? Electronic references will become really useful only when more than five percent of the world's knowledge -- the present value as I understand it -- is available online. Not in my lifetime. Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:38:08 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vivienne S Dunstan Subject: laptop use/recommendations? Hi all, I've been following this discussion with interest. I'm training as an indexer at the moment (Society of Indexers' distance course) but may be doing my first index any day now :) Anyway I'm hoping to maybe use my palmtop computer for indexing. I'm very ill, and often bedridden, and I can't physically handle a laptop anymore. I've got a Psion 3a which has what many of you might consider a small keyboard, but I can touch-type with ease, as can my husband who has very large hands. The Psion doesn't have any indexing software and doesn't run Mac or PC applications, but it does come fully equipped with word processing, database and spreadsheet applications (among others). I'm even thinking about writing something to help, having read various books guidelines about requirements of s/w. It's very easy to transfer files between the Psion and my Mac, so getting information in and out isn't a problem and it would be possible to use the palmtop in conjunction with a desktop machine, possibly running one of the existing indexing programs. These are the physical dimensions of the Psion 3a/c machines: 165mm x 85mm x 22mm and weight (inc batteries) as 275g. The batteries are 2 AA ones (as used in calculators etc.) and each pair lasts for usually 50 hours of use i.e. a long time! I'd be interested to hear of anyone else using a machine like this. I won't be taking in too much indexing work when I do qualify for health reasons, but need something that lets me work anywhere, and that I can physically handle. The new Psion (the 5) has a much larger keyboard and has been very favourably reviewed all over the world. More info can be found at http://www.psion.com. There are of course many other palmtops out there. Best wishes. Viv Dunstan Fife, Scotland http://www.almac.co.uk/personal/vdunstan/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:32:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Medical index I really find all this incredible. How supposedly intelligent people can = be so down right insulting and verbally abusive. I feel like I am watching a boxing match and at times are participating. We are suppose to be helping each other not hindering. When someone insinuates that someone else is ly= ing and when an innocent mistake is made and use it as an opportunity to expr= ess there need to lash out at someone, it hurts and upsets everyone especiall= y the victims. I think if you don=92t understand something that is said or = you think something is too incredible to understand you should E-mail that pe= rson off list and get it straighten out not insult them publicly just to get s= ome high off of trying to look superior. Susan Wilkerson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:15:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Mullinix Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) In-Reply-To: <199710171712.NAA21211@ kis.net> A friend forwarded this to me a few days ago. It has been going the rounds, but those that have not seen it (and appreciate tactile pleasures) should enjoy it. Barb Mullinix Beeline Index Writing Service ****************************** Subject: Built-in Orderly Organized Knowledge Devices ****************************** Announcing the new Built-in Orderly Organized Knowledge device (BOOK). The BOOK is a revolutionary breakthrough in technology: No wires, no electric circuits, no batteries, nothing to be connected or switched on... It's so easy to use even a child can operate it. Just lift its cover! Compact and portable, it can be used anywhere-even sitting in an armchair by the fire-yet it is powerful enough to hold as much information as a CD-ROM disc. Here's how it works: Each BOOK is constructed of sequentially numbered sheets of paper (recyclable), each capable of holding thousands of bits of information. These pages are locked together with a custom-fit device called a binder which keeps the sheets in their correct sequence. Opaque Paper Technology (OPT) allows manufacturers to use both sides of the sheet, doubling the information density and cutting costs in half. Experts are divided on the prospects for further increases in information density; for now BOOKs with more information simply use more pages. This makes them thicker and harder to carry, and has drawn some criticism from the mobile computing crowd. Each sheet is scanned optically, registering information directly into your brain. A flick of the finger takes you to the next sheet. The BOOK may be taken up at any time and used by merely opening it. The BOOK never crashes and never needs rebooting, though like other display devices it can become unusable if dropped overboard. The "browse" feature allows you to move instantly to any sheet, and move forward or backward as you wish. Many come with an "index" feature, which pinpoints the exact location of any selected information for instant retrieval. An optional "BOOKmark" accessory allows you to open the BOOK to the exact place you left it in a previous session-even if the BOOK has been closed. BOOKmarks fit universal design standards; thus, a single BOOKmark can be used in BOOKs by various manufacturers. Conversely, numerous bookmarkers can be used in a single BOOK if the user wants to store numerous views at once. The number is limited only by the number of pages in the BOOK. You can also make personal notes next to BOOK text entries with an optional programming tool, the Portable Erasable Nib Cryptic Intercommunication Language Stylus (Pencils). Portable, durable, and affordable, the BOOK is being hailed as the entertainment wave of the future. The BOOK's appeal seems so certain that thousands of content creators have committed to the platform. Look for a flood of new titles soon. At 01:01 PM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote: ><< While you can do this online of course, for me it just works better to >have a real book in my hands. There's a place for every one of these >reference sources, and I for one doubt I will ever "go electronic" >completely. >> > >As Sonsie said, I love the feel of the book in my hand, and I think no matter >how much I use online and CD reference sources, I will continue to keep >reference books at home too. I simply love books. For that reason, I'm an >antique book collector too. > >Nothing replaces the tactile feel of a book in the hand! I respect and use >electronic reference sources, but may the old-fashioned book live on forever! > >Janet Perlman >Southwest Indexing > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:10:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret Stevenson Subject: Re: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710161907.PAA11493@camel10.mindspring.com> Did you ever get an answer re the below? Meg At 02:56 PM 10/16/97 EDT, you wrote: >Do you have to be at Microsoft for this position, or is it something one >could do freelance? Suellen > >On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:27:08 -0400 Charlotte Skuster > writes: >>>From: Robin Buckmiller >>>Subject: Microsoft Encarta open position: Indexers >>>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:31:26 -0700 >>> >>>Bonnie, >>> >>>Here's the job descriptions and reply instructions. Again, please >>note: >>>this is a full-time, on-site position, with salary, benefits, etc. >>>Thanks again! >>> >>>Indexer >>>You are the Go To person for Encarta Encyclopedia and other Reference >>>Business Unit products; writing and editing index entries, retrieving >>>online information, and writing cross references and browse >>hierarchies. >>>Qualifications? A minimum of 4 years' of indexing with an in depth >>>knowledge of indexing principles for multiple entries and levels. >>>Ability to develop synonym, hypernym and hyponym sets and use a >>variety >>>of tools is a must. Knowledge of Microsoft Windows and Office >>preferred. >>>BA/BS degree required. >>> >>>Microsoft offers a competitive salary and excellent benefits. E-mail >>>your resume in ASCII text format to: resume@microsoft.com (indicate >>>Dept. A3ca8-1009 within the text of your resume) or mail to: >>Microsoft >>>Corporation, Attn: Recruiting A3ca8-1009, One Microsoft Way, STE 303, >>>Redmond, WA 98052-8303. No phone calls please. We are an equal >>>opportunity employer and support workplace diversity. >>> >>> >>> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:11:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Buchanan Organization: Buchanan Indexing and Editing Subject: Persuasion Dear Index-L people: I have a client in a government department who also writes for a commercial publisher in Europe. At present, most of the books published commercially do not have indexes! However, the author wants to persuade his editor to have indexes created for all books from now on and also to pay for them. I think that, if I could provide some quotes from journals or texts about the value of indexes, it would help the author's cause, not to say my own! I can find quotes from books on indexing but, because of their obvious bias in favour of indexes, I would prefer other sources. Would anyone know a reference to an unbiased source that extols the virtues of indexes - perhaps leaning more towards the financial side of things: they help sell more books, librarians are more kindly disposed towards them, etc. I am presuming the editor is concerned about the additional costs of, and perhaps time needed for, indexing. Many thanks in advance, Patricia Buchanan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:31:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710201903.MAA18166@mx5.u.washington.edu> I think a distinction need be made between a text which can only be read on the screen and a text which can be read on the screen or printed. I see the future of publishing in the latter with publishers possibly supplying, at a great cost, library style books printed on good paper with strong binding. Most books will be what we store electronically or print-up for ourselves. I should point out that a good PostScript printer and good paper, plus a binder that knows what he or she is doing, produces very pretty books indeed. Paul D. Buell On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Larry Harrison wrote: > Sharon Wright opined: > > >Actually, computer screens are hard on the eyes-- > >there are physiological reasons, not psychological > >ones..... > > > Exactly right! And, one additional factor: the quality of the letters, > expressed in pixels per inch or centimeter, is at least 10 times > better for a well-printed book. Even laser printers routinely > produce 600 or 1200 pixels per inch, and who has a screen with > more than one-tenth that? This results in characters with gaps > and jagged lines, and hampers the function of serifs (which aid the > eye in rapid, effortless recognition of letters and whole words). > > All that said, never forget that computer technology is still > moving fast, and screens will get better, easier to read, and > more portable. However, the difference between emitted and absorbed > light (for CRT's, at any rate) and the prohibition against reading > from them in the bathtub will be with us for a long, long time. > > Regards, > > > Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 > Freelance book indexing > Rochester, Minnesota > > What's book indexing? ---> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper - Reply Dafydd Llwyd Talcott wrote: > > To extend Pam Rider's comments, "...seems inexpensive....", _ad absurdum_, > regarding electronic services: doesn't it seem odd sometimes to require > a $2000 machine in order to read a simple reference? > > Electronic references will become really useful only when more than > five percent of the world's knowledge -- the present value as I understand > it -- is available online. Not in my lifetime. I would respectfully disagree. With most new information in the mojority of the Fortune 1000 going into database driven intranets and most new work (and older works) produced by most professors in Universities going on the web already, it will probably be less than five years when over half of the current World's knowledge (in five years) is online. There is already a considerable amount of information that is only available online and that is increasing at a frightening rate. There are an lot of companies, mine included, that produce no paper about themselves (except business cards), but instead have all their information on a web site. Even though I am in the field, I am astonished at how fast things are changing. -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Windexer "The first WinHelp indexing tool" www.sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:34:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971017181515.0069538c@oz.kis.net> What an entertaining discussion - it has taken so many turns! That paper on "Built-in Orderly Organized Knowledge (BOOK)devices" always makes me giggle. I first saw it back in grad school when the instructor of our "online information systems" class passed it around. What a hoot! It always reminds me of the preaching about how computers were going to make our lives so much easier. Bah - all they've done is shift the difficult stuff. What was hard before may be automated now, but every time we change software or upgrade, we waste days & weeks flopping around in the interfaces. <> For the record, my posting (about free reference sources at the library and on the 'net ) was in response to the discussion about how expensive CD-ROM reference sources were for us freelancers. I was merely reminding folks that there are plenty of ways around spending loads of money on references sources: calling your library's reference desk, visiting your library, using your library's resources via the 'net (where available or finding libraries on the 'net that are available to everyone), and using sources on the 'net. I didn't think that I needed to qualify my posting with the usual remarks on "critical evaluation of sources" (print or other formats), since we've had this kind of discussion before. I just wanted to share my sneaky ways of avoiding really expensive reference works. As I said, I do have a reference shelf. The books on that shelf are ones I use in a hurry, and rarely (if ever) use for the experience of smelling, touching, and being with books (which I admit to needing, but I usually use books other than my encyclopedia 8-) ). I just have, in addition, (1) bus schedules to the nearest libraries (and bookmarks to the updated, online versions of them), (2) a post-it note w/ the library's "quick info" phone number, (3) tons of bookmarks to useful web sites, and (4) lists of systems to which I telnet for info. 8-) Back to your regularly scheduled indexing discussions... -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:39:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710201903.MAA18180@mx5.u.washington.edu> May I point out that the discussion began in response to a question about indexing speed by someone I took for a beginner. Responses were often quite carless about kinds of books being indexed and other things. A discussion of apples, oranges, pears and rhinoseroses developed which degenerated from there on. I think the lesson is that there is a need to be very, very precise in answering this kind of question. I also think that Dick was quite wrong to take the whole thing personally from message 1 or 2. I did not find this productive. Paul D. Buell PS: And it is a fact of the matter that while there are many good ones out there, most computer indexes are God awful. I say this not as indexer but as programmer. I am using a text right now on Microsoft Foundation Classes for which the index is worth little or nothing. The important things from a programmer's perspective just do not appear. On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Larry Harrison wrote: > Lynn Moncrief wrote, in part: > > >I really don't want to step into the middle of this or heat this up any > >more than it already is, but I really think that Dick isn't being treated > >with the full decency that we should expect from one another here. > > I have been away for a few days, or I would have pitched in earlier. > This is exactly the problem I have with this discussion. > People seem to be shooting off quick reactions to statements out of > context, and talking past each other. I am pleased at the restraint > Dick has shown in his public responses. I could not blame him if > he responded privately with a bit more.. ah.. colorful language. > > If you think a statement made here looks dubious, write an email > to the individual privately, asking for some clarification. This > kind of public impugning of someone's credibility and professional > standards should be beneath us all. > > There may be some hacks and charlatans using this list, but Dick > Evans is not one of them. I attended a roundtable led by Dick a few > years ago at an ASI conference. The types of computer books he > indexes can often be handled with a kind of formulaic or template > approach, organizing commands and functions in a certain way, > which he developed to improve indexing consistency and efficiency. > This method is entirely appropriate for the books he uses it for, > and it makes the job completely different from, say, indexing a > biography or a scholarly book on computer science. > > When this thread started, there was an opportunity for us to learn from > the different styles used and kinds of material encountered by all > the people on the list. Unfortunately, the discussion has slid down to > a level where assumptions about index quality are being made with > no information as a basis for these conclusions. This should stop. > > Those of us who are concerned about the atmosphere and tone of this > list need to speak up when this kind of trash happens. > > You want to compare indexing rates and speeds? I once indexed > a 100-page book for $1 a page. It turned out to pay a better hourly > rate than most books I have done, since it only took me 3.5 hours, > start to finish. Was it any good? The people at the press said > "it's the best [..type of book omitted..] index I've ever seen." > > Believe it? Do you think you have enough information to judge? > We'll see. > > Regards, > > > > Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 > Freelance book indexing > Rochester, Minnesota > > What's book indexing? ---> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:46:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: HELP with my index from hell! Julie, Concerning your problem with converting a CINDEX file to a word processing file; do you actually have the CINDEX program, or just the .ndx file? If you don't have the program, I'm not sure there's much hope, but if you do, all you have to do is open the index in CINDEX, give it the command "Print/file" and type in "RTF" in the file format spot. It should create an RTF file that you can import quite easily into your word processor. I am not surprised that you're having trouble with the .ndx file; it is not designed to work in other than CINDEX. Good luck! Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- Do or do not. There is no try. --Yoda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:43:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: HELP with index from hell! & HTML From what I can tell from your message, you have saved your index on disk in .ndx format, but you should save it to disk via the print/file command, like print/file=c:\msoffice\winword\ in the command line (or wherever your Word program is hanging out). Save the index as an .rtf file, as that is the most adaptable, when the print/file screen comes up. You can also save the file then in .txt format once you get it into Word. You should also investigate the WRITE command, too, as it creates index files that take up less space on disks. It is always a great idea to have several disks lying around with index backups in .dat file format so that in case of disaster, all your bases are covered. Sometimes .ndx files are so huge that you could only save them in one piece on a Zip disk. As for HTML mark-up for Web indexes, you should try Dave Ream's HTML/Prep--which I just got the other day and after a frantic call to Dave because of a boo-boo on my part (Hi Dave!) it works like a charm. You might not be able to afford the $45 it costs (I remember what being a grad student is like!), but you should be aware that it exists, just in case. HTML/Prep takes the lowest level heading in a record and codes the page field where you would put the URL. All you have to is index and HTML/Prep does the rest, including several options for certain features for the Web index. Cross references are a bit of a pain, as they have to be done manually, but the worst of the work is easily done by HTML/Prep for the rest of the index. Good luck! At 10:21 AM 10/19/97 -0400, Julie Snape wrote: >Anyway, here's the problem, I want import the complete index from a disk - it >is in "ndx" format/ cindex 6.0 standard version - to microsoft word - in a >windows 95 environment- so that I can mark it up. When my school's computer >guru and I tried this, all we could get were "shots" of single screens that >were captured using the clipboard function. Any ideas on how to move the >whole thing at once? conceivably, I could just move the whole index 1 screen >at a time, but as this thing is 16 print pages, I am not finding this an >attractive option. I'd appreicate any help or suggestions that anyone might >have! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ginette Chandonnet Subject: Medical index - end of discussion I would like to thank everyone for their answer(s) to my question regarding my indexing "pace" on a medical index. However, I must say that I was quite astonished by the trend of the discussion. I asked a simple question (at least I thought it was...) and never expected to create such a "competitive contest" on indexing speed. I think everything (pleasant and unpleasant) as been said on that matter. Can we now stop this nonsense and discuss something else??? Ginette Chandonnet soumah@microtec.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:44:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710201908.MAA14627@mx3.u.washington.edu> No one ever, ever accused Dick of lying. He took the posting that way. Paul D. Buell On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Susan Wilkerson wrote: > I really find all this incredible. How supposedly intelligent people can = > be > so down right insulting and verbally abusive. I feel like I am watching a > boxing match and at times are participating. We are suppose to be helping > each other not hindering. When someone insinuates that someone else is ly= > ing > and when an innocent mistake is made and use it as an opportunity to expr= > ess > there need to lash out at someone, it hurts and upsets everyone especiall= > y > the victims. I think if you don=92t understand something that is said or = > you > think something is too incredible to understand you should E-mail that pe= > rson > off list and get it straighten out not insult them publicly just to get s= > ome > high off of trying to look superior. > > Susan Wilkerson > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:05:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper Oh my, I hope Paul is wrong. Would it really be cheaper for folks at home to "print" their own books? I am not an expert on economies of size, but I think not. At 12:31 PM 10/20/97 -0700, you wrote: >I think a distinction need be made between a text which can only be read >on the screen and a text which can be read on the screen or printed. I see >the future of publishing in the latter with publishers possibly supplying, >at a great cost, library style books printed on good paper with strong >binding. Most books will be what we store electronically or print-up for >ourselves. I should point out that a good PostScript printer and good >paper, plus a binder that knows what he or she is doing, produces very >pretty books indeed. Paul D. Buell > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:38:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710202018.NAA23059@mx3.u.washington.edu> Ah but it may be soon. My own book, forthcoming from Kegan Paul International shortly, will cost probably more than $200.00 a copy. This is typical for academic publishing. The same company is the source of the $245.00 book I have mentioned before. Even US of A publishers of more popular scholarly books are changing $75.00 to $100.00 a pop. Now I can print my own book on 100% rag paper and get a leather binding for well under $100.00 and if I go for a cheaper paper and binding .... My view is that the publishing industry is pricing itself out of existence. Of course access fees for access to online books may remain high and CD-ROMS pricey. Look at how expensive music CDs are in comparison to production costs. So the future may bring "print you own book" and pay a fat fee too. Paul D. Buell On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Pam Rider wrote: > Oh my, I hope Paul is wrong. Would it really be cheaper for folks at home to > "print" their own books? I am not an expert on economies of size, but I > think not.. > > At 12:31 PM 10/20/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I think a distinction need be made between a text which can only be read > >on the screen and a text which can be read on the screen or printed. I see > >the future of publishing in the latter with publishers possibly supplying, > >at a great cost, library style books printed on good paper with strong > >binding. Most books will be what we store electronically or print-up for > >ourselves. I should point out that a good PostScript printer and good > >paper, plus a binder that knows what he or she is doing, produces very > >pretty books indeed. Paul D. Buell > > > Pam Rider > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:39:19 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Persuasion Patricia Buchanan wrote: > I think that, if I could provide some quotes from journals or texts about > the value of indexes, it would help the author's cause, not to say my > own! > Patricia, The "Indexes omitted" section of The Indexer contains very good quotes about books without indexes by independent reviewers. Some of them address the economics of omitted indexes. If you are a member of ASI you should be receiving The Indexer. Bonny McLaughlin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:44:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: FAQ Time for the now twice-yearly (or thereabouts) FAQ. The=20 intention here is to provide some information gleaned from discussions on= =20 index-l. For a more extensive treatment of indexing, please see the ASI=20 Website at http://www.well.com/user/asi/ As usual, if you see something that needs correcting, or you know of=20 something that should be included, please let me know. Charlotte Skuster INDEX-L FAQ=20 Contents: 1. Index-l procedures 2. Netiquette 3. Archives 4. Books on indexing 5. What software do indexers use? 6. Courses or training for indexers (outside of library schools) 7. Professional societies/organizations for indexers 8. Network connections 9. Internet Sites=20 10.Winners of the ASI/H.W. Wilson Company Award for Indexing=20 1. INDEX-L PROCEDURES There are three addresses you need to use for interaction with index-l: To take part in a discussion or send a message to the list (a.k.a. group or subscribers), address your e-mail to index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a message directly to the moderator (a.k.a. Charlotte), address your e-mail to cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu or Skuster@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a command to the listserv, address your e-mail to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu. As subscribers, you are able to send commands to the listserv to see the archives, see a list of subscribers, stop your mail for a while, or a number of other options. To get a list of listserv commands and what they do, send the following message to the listserv:=20 INFO REFCARD Do not sign your name or put anything else in the message. 2. Netiquette Index-l is un-moderated most of the time. This means the listowner does not see the messages before subscribers do. There are +/-800 subscribers to index-l. It is a very diverse group of=20 free-lance indexers, students, academics, in-house indexers, technical writers, editors, and others. The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is appropriate. ---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about software/equipment. ---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be legitimately related to indexing, it may appropriate.) ---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted messages. --Other guidelines related to keeping the list free of clutter and strife ---Refrain from sending comments without content such as "I agree" or "right on" or "me too", "thanks", or "welcome". This type of message is best sent directly to the person you are responding to. (An exception to this would be a global thanks for information or assistance provided by several people.) ---When surveying the group for information that requires a brief answer, such as "how many of you are librarians?" or "who uses XYZ software?", please invite respondents to reply to you directly and offer to summarize for the list. ---Avoid quoting long messages when responding to a post. Quote segments just long enough to let others know what you are responding to. =20 ---Fire prevention. If possible, try not to respond to postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the person personally. ---If you are having technical problems, please contact the listowner directly (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu). ---For a more extensive treatment of netiquette issues see the following site on the world wide web: =20 http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/netiquette.html 3. ARCHIVES There are two ways to look at the archives: ---Received directly from the listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Send the following message to the listserv: index index-l. You will receive a list of available archives. When you decide what you would like to see, send the following message to the listserv: get log9703a (for the first week in March, for example) ---On the library gopher at Georgia Southern University: Messages are stored here from the start of the listserv in 1992 through the most recent preceding month. A WAIS searching program is available to search through all years at once or through a selected year. =20 The GSU gopher is located through a gopher client at gopher.gasou.edu or by telnet to gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu.=20 public login (INFO), and then look for the gopher program on the the main information services menu.=20 When you reach the gopher take this directory path: =20 /Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Organizations/Index-L 4. BOOKS ON INDEXING Bonura, L. The Art of Indexing. Wiley, 1994 Knight, G. N. Indexing, The Art Of. Allen & Unwin, 1979.=20 =20 Lancaster, F. W. Indexing and Abstracting in Theory and Practice. U of Illinois Press, 1991.=20 =20 Lancaster, F. W. Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval,=20 2nd ed. Information resources Press, 1986=20 Mulvany, Nancy C. Indexing Books, University of Chicago Press, 1994. =20 Wellisch, H. Indexing and Abstracting, an International=20 Bibliography ABC-Clio, 1980.=20 =20 Wellisch, H. Indexing from A to Z. H. W. Wilson, 1991.=20 =20 =20 5. WHAT SOFTWARE DO INDEXERS USE? (This is a limited list. See the ASI Web Site for a more extensive listing: http://www.well.com/user/asi) Cindex (DOS, Macintosh, Windows) Indexing Research=20 Box 18609=20 Rochester, NY 14618 (716) 461-5530=20 FAX: (716) 442-3924 ircindex@aol.com http://www.indexres.com HyperIndex (Macintosh) Andre De Tienne 7590 Harcourt Road #106 Indianapolis, IN 46260 (317) 274-2033 adetienn@iupui.edu =20 IN>SORT (DOS) Kensa Software=20 P.O. Box 4415=20 Northbrook, IL 60065=20 (708) 559-0297=20 info@kensa.com =20 Macrex (DOS) Wise Bytes P.O. Box 3051=20 Daly City, CA 95015-0051=20 (415) 756-0821=20 FAX: (415) 757-1567=20 Macrex@aol.com http://www.cix.co.uk/~hcalvert SKY Index (Windows) SKY Software 4675 York One Rd Lineboro, MD 21102 Voice and FAX: (410) 374-3484=20 email@sky-software.com URL: http://www.sky-software.com wINDEX (DOS) Susan Holbert Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 FAX: (617) 894-4665 susanh@world.std.com http://www.abbington.com/holbert/windex.html 6. COURSES OR TRAINING FOR INDEXERS (OUTSIDE OF LIBRARY SCHOOLS) Graduate School of the USDA=20 Correspondence Programs, Ag Box 9911=20 Room 1114, South Agriculture Building=20 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW=20 Washington, DC 20250=20 (202) 720-7123 TDD: (202) 690-1516=20 Tuition: (includes all materials)=20 $281,00--Basic Indexing (beginning) $275.00--Applied Indexing (more advanced) Basic Indexing Skills Video Susan Holbert/Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 susanh@world.std.com Fee: $149 + $7 shipping + $7.45 tax for MA residents only 7. PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES/ORGANIZATIONS FOR INDEXERS =20 American Society of Indexers (ASI)=20 P.O. Box 48267 Seattle, WA 98148-0267 (206) 241-9196 FAX: (206) 727-6430 E-MAIL: asi@well.com http://www.well.com/user/asi/=20 Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada/ Soci=82t=82 Canadienne pour l'Analyse de Documents (IASC/SCAD) Box 744 Station F=20 Toronto Ontario=20 Canada M4Y 2N6=20 =20 National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services=20 (NFAIS)=20 1518 Walnut Street Suite 307 Philadelphia PA 19102-3403=20 (215) 893-1561 FAX: (215) 893-1564 E-MAIL: nfais@hslc.org=20 Society of Indexers (SI) Mermaid House 1 Mermaid Court LONDON SE1 1HR United Kingdom +44 (0) 171 4034947 FAX +44 (0) 171 4038988 E-MAIL: 10624.1745@compuserve.com Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI)=20 GPO Box 1251L, Melbourne=20 Victoria 3001, Australia=20 E-MAIL:mindexer@interconnect.com.au http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi =20 8. NETWORK CONNECTIONS=20 =20 America Online (800) 227-6364=20 =20 CompuServe (800) 848-8199=20 =20 Delphi (800) 495-4005=20 =20 GEnie (800) 638-9636=20 =20 The Well (415) 332-4335=20 =20 Real/Time Communications (512) 459-4391=20 =20 See also.=20 Maren, M. "The Age of E-Mail. Home Office Computing,=20 December, 1993, 63-70.=20 Tetzeli, R. "Is Going On-line Worth the Money?" FORTUNE 129(12):104-105, 108. June 13, 1994. 9. Internet Sites Gopher Index-L Archives gopher eagle1.cc.gasou.edu World Wide Web American Society of Indexers http://www.well.com/user/asi Australian Society of Indexers http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi =20 =20 10. WINNERS OF THE ASI/H.W. WILSON COMPANY AWARD FOR INDEXING=20 =20 1979--Hans H. Wellisch, author and indexer; John Wiley, publisher: The Conversion of Scripts: Its Nature, History and Utilization =20 1980--Linda I. Solow, indexer; M.I.T. Press, publisher: Beyond Orpheus:Studies in Musical Structures.=20 =20 1981--Delight Ansley, indexer; Random House Publisher: Cosmos by Carl Sagan,=20 =20 1982--Catherine Fix, indexer; Wm. Saunders Company, publisher: Diagnosis of Bone and Joint Disorders.=20 =20 1983--Award not given.=20 =20 1984--Trish Yancey, indexer; Information Handling Services, publisher: Index and Directory of U.S. Industry Standards=20 =20 1985--Sydney W. Cohen, indexer; Random House, publisher: The Experts Speak by Cerf and Navasky.=20 =20 1986--Marjorie Hyslop, indexer; American Society for Metals, publisher: Metals Handbook.=20 =20 1987--Award not given.=20 =20 1988--Jeanne Moody, indexer; National Wildlife Institute, publisher: Raptor Management Techniques.=20 =20 1989--Philip James, indexer; Butterworths, publisher: Medicine for the Practicing Physician, 2nd ed..=20 =20 1990--Marcia Carlson, indexer; Cornell University Press, publisher: Strategic Nuclear Arms & Arms Control Debates.=20 =20 1991--Daniels, Nancy L., indexer; Van Nostrand Reinhold, publisher:Beyond Public Architecture: Strategies for Design Evaluation. =20 1992--Johnson, Rachel Jo., indexer; Matthew Bender, publisher: American Law of Real Property.=20 =20 1993--Award not given.=20 1994--Deminna, Patricia, indexer; U. of California, publisher: Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture by Daniel Boyarin 1995--White, Martin L., indexer; University of Chicago Press, publisher; The Promise of Pragmatism: Modernism and the Crisis of Knowledge and Authority. 1996--Award not given 1997--Gillian Northcott and Ruth Levitt, indexers; Grove's Dictionaries in the United States and Macmillan Publishers Ltd. in the United Kingdom; Dictionary of Art, edited by Joan Shoaf Turner.. The Dictionary of Art is made up of 32 volumes. This marks the first time that the Wilson Award has been presented for a multi-volume work. The index, which took 10 years to compile, comprises one volume of the dictionary.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:44:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Online Reference Sources (was CD-ROM resources) Kari Bero pointed out some of the advantages of using the 'net and web resources available through your local library. Ah, but some of our local libraries aren't really "public". The only library in my county is run like a public library, but funded primarily through a private trust or foundation set up to run the library by a wealthy county resident (now deceased.) It only went to computerized checkout and card catalog *this year*. While the library does have a few computers with Internet access, they don't have much in the way of special access to things like EB or other online resources -- and what they do have isn't available to me from home. Nor can I access these resources through the single library in the nearest city (which I pay a fee to use.) Apparently, I need some special code put in by the reference librarian on the spot; they won't do it over the phone. So, access through libraries is great -- if you can get it. If you can't, make the best use you can of unrestricted web sites, subscription web sites, and CD-ROM and print media. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:17:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: missing mail again Sorry to bug the list with this, but does anyone have the listmaster's address? I'm having problems with receiving messages (nothing since the 17th, which seems very unlikely.) I resubscribed, but got a message that I'm already subscribed, so the absence of mail is puzzling. TIA, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:58:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: missing mail again In-Reply-To: <9710202337.AA07239@henson.cc.wwu.edu> The mail dried up for a while and I noticed that some things I posted were way out of order. Must have been our heated debate on indexing capacities. Paul D. Buell On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, John and Kara Pekar wrote: > Sorry to bug the list with this, but does anyone have the listmaster's > address? I'm having problems with receiving messages (nothing since the > 17th, which seems very unlikely.) I resubscribed, but got a message that > I'm already subscribed, so the absence of mail is puzzling. > > TIA, > > Kara Pekar > jkpekar@crosslink.net > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:56:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Online Help Index I have two problems with an index I'm working on using RoboHelp version 4.00.040 (and WinHelp Office). 1. The very first entry is the main (stub) entry, Accessing. It has four sub-entries. The main entry is coded like this Accessing :; with the word, a space, a colon, then a semi-colon. Problem: the colon appears in the compiled index. The sub-entries are fine. All the other main entries are coded the same way and are fine. 2. In my Reports entry, I have Reports as the main entry, and several subs including two with commas: "configuration, creating" and "layout, creating" (without the quotes). The first sub works fine but the second doesn't: Reports configuration, creating Reports : layout, creating The subs are coded like this in the same help topic: Reports : configuration, creating;Reports : layout, creating I know I can rewrite the Reports entries without the commas, but, for future reference, I'd like to know if that is what is causing the problem and if there is a a way to work with commas in 2-level indexes. I greatly appreciate any suggestions and advice you can give me. TIA. Marsha Lofthouse marsha_lofthouse@customer-insight.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:10:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: missing mail again Thanks to those who emailed me privately about the "missing" mail. To my embarrassment, it came in (or at least 38 messages of it, in very scrambled order!) not five minutes after I sent my query to the list. Sorry to have bugged you; the list has "gone missing" before, but never for three whole days. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:00:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottesen Subject: Re: Online Help Index -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Marsha: I'm assuming that you want your entries to look like this: Reports configuration, creating layout, creating The code I would use for that is Reports ,;Reports , configuration, creating;Reports , layout, creating REPORTS space comma semicolon REPORTS space comma space CONFIGURATION comma space CREATING semicolon REPORTS space comma space LAYOUT comma space CREATING Whew. This is the only code that I can get to work for subentries all the time. Unfortunately, mixing this type of code with the colon-type code or the basic code, that is, Reports;Reports , configuration, creating;Reports; layout, creating doesn't work well. You may want to keep this type of index coding in mind for your next project though. Good luck, Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:36:49 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710201944.MAA24827@pacific.net> Paul wrote: > I should point out that a good PostScript printer and good >paper, plus a binder that knows what he or she is doing, produces very >pretty books indeed. With this I must disagree. The first twenty years of my career were in book production, not editorial. Home-printed and copy-shop bound books are in no way the aesthetic experience of a well-made book, even a paperback. I also seriously question the resource usage home-printing entails. I personally don't like to have to turn on my computer to fetch an address, phone number, or something to read. Computers are noisy and use electricity, and they don't cuddle up in bed. The paperless computer office is a joke. More paper is generated in offices now by far. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:57:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: OED on CD-ROM OED on CD-ROM -- >$319.95 from the Strand BookStore in New York City . . . They are not >online, but have e-mail and a tollfree number (1 800 366 3664, 9:30 am >- 6 pm EST Mond-Sat). The OED is available for Windows, and is item >no.52534 in their catalogue H-9 Jo Ann Cahn from the copyediting list sent me this information last March. I don't know if it still holds, but for what it's worth, I ordered it and am now the happy owner of my very own OED on CD-ROM. And it's great. Karen Lane klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:30:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: speed I would like to extend my apologies to Dick. I'm afraid my original response may have fanned the flames of the speed issue, although I bowed out early and with relief. I was in such a state contemplating how I would index the huge tech index I took on in addition to my other full-time job that I panicked over his statement. And I posted immediately upon reading Dick's post, thinking about his wording as I wrote. I believe it was Ann Norcross who was able to depanic me by posting about her recent efforts in the area of indexing straight to computer rather than marking. I meant nothing disparaging about Dick or his claims. I was reflecting some of my own concerns. In fact, when I take the time to think about this upcoming index, I still panic! Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: missing mail again/mixed order I often get my mail in mixed up order. In fact, I am grateful to those who copy the email to which they are responding. I usually get the original mail much later than the replies. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:37:47 -0400 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: Online Help Index Marsha Lofthouse wrote: > 1. The very first entry is the main (stub) entry, Accessing. It has > four sub-entries. The main entry is coded like this > Accessing :; > with the word, a space, a colon, then a semi-colon. > Problem: the colon appears in the compiled index. Using the space-colon method to deal with the sorting anomolies in WinHelp 4 indexes is a good choice. However, since you must do it for every entry, WinHelp always shows the colon after the first entry in the index. If the first entry were a single level entry (no stub required), then you could just remove the colon from that entry. Your first entry requires the stub so you need to take the next approach and put in a default first entry. This can be an entry for your Copywrite page and yu get it to sort first by encasing the entry in quotes such as: "About XYZ Software" Since that will be the first entry and it won't have a colon your problem will be solved. As to your second problem. There is an easy fix, but it isn't obvious in RoboHELP. You need to get access to the Index_Separators command in the Config section of your HPJ file. You can do this one of two ways. Using HCW. 1. Double click in Explorer on the HPJ file. This will automatically launch HCW (Help Compiler Workshop). 2. Click Options and select the Sorting tab. 3. Enter a colon in the "Separate index entries using these characters..." text box. Since you want to use commas as text entries you have to explicitly enter a colon as the separator. 4. Save the HPJ file Using the RoboHELP CNT creator. 1. Click on the Add Contents button on the RoboHELP Floating Toolbar or from the Tools menu, click Contents Tab Composer. 2. From the Project menu, click Porperites and select the Advanced tab. 3. Enter a colon in the Index Separating Characters text box. 4. Click OK which will save your changes. This will solve your sort problem, since commas will now be seen only as text. I hope that helps. -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:02:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky Steele/VENTANA Subject: Re: Medical index >>PS: And it is a fact of the matter that while there are many good ones out there, most computer indexes are God awful.<< Paul - I beg to differ with you here. I manage the indexing process for a publishing of compuater books and if I thought they were trash they would never go in the book. The team of indexers I use are wonderfully gifted and talented individuals who make a hard job look easy. The indexers I use often work from listings given by the author to create an index that is pleasing to both parties. It doesn't have to be one sided. And if the indexes are not seen from the proper viewpoint (not the programmers) then maybe the wrong indexer is doing the work. While I realize that this is just you opinion I had to say something to defend the people who make the books my company does the best they can be. They truly give extra value to the books and I for one would not want to do this job without them. becky steele publishing coordinator pbuell @ U.WASHINGTON.EDU ("P. Buell") 10/20/97 12:39 PM To: INDEX-L @ BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L) @ INET cc: (bcc: Becky Steele/VENTANA) Subject: Re: Medical index May I point out that the discussion began in response to a question about indexing speed by someone I took for a beginner. Responses were often quite carless about kinds of books being indexed and other things. A discussion of apples, oranges, pears and rhinoseroses developed which degenerated from there on. I think the lesson is that there is a need to be very, very precise in answering this kind of question. I also think that Dick was quite wrong to take the whole thing personally from message 1 or 2. I did not find this productive. Paul D. Buell PS: And it is a fact of the matter that while there are many good ones out there, most computer indexes are God awful. I say this not as indexer but as programmer. I am using a text right now on Microsoft Foundation Classes for which the index is worth little or nothing. The important things from a programmer's perspective just do not appear. On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Larry Harrison wrote: > Lynn Moncrief wrote, in part: > > >I really don't want to step into the middle of this or heat this up any > >more than it already is, but I really think that Dick isn't being treated > >with the full decency that we should expect from one another here. > > I have been away for a few days, or I would have pitched in earlier. > This is exactly the problem I have with this discussion. > People seem to be shooting off quick reactions to statements out of > context, and talking past each other. I am pleased at the restraint > Dick has shown in his public responses. I could not blame him if > he responded privately with a bit more.. ah.. colorful language. > > If you think a statement made here looks dubious, write an email > to the individual privately, asking for some clarification. This > kind of public impugning of someone's credibility and professional > standards should be beneath us all. > > There may be some hacks and charlatans using this list, but Dick > Evans is not one of them. I attended a roundtable led by Dick a few > years ago at an ASI conference. The types of computer books he > indexes can often be handled with a kind of formulaic or template > approach, organizing commands and functions in a certain way, > which he developed to improve indexing consistency and efficiency. > This method is entirely appropriate for the books he uses it for, > and it makes the job completely different from, say, indexing a > biography or a scholarly book on computer science. > > When this thread started, there was an opportunity for us to learn from > the different styles used and kinds of material encountered by all > the people on the list. Unfortunately, the discussion has slid down to > a level where assumptions about index quality are being made with > no information as a basis for these conclusions. This should stop. > > Those of us who are concerned about the atmosphere and tone of this > list need to speak up when this kind of trash happens. > > You want to compare indexing rates and speeds? I once indexed > a 100-page book for $1 a page. It turned out to pay a better hourly > rate than most books I have done, since it only took me 3.5 hours, > start to finish. Was it any good? The people at the press said > "it's the best [..type of book omitted..] index I've ever seen." > > Believe it? Do you think you have enough information to judge? > We'll see. > > Regards, > > > > Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 > Freelance book indexing > Rochester, Minnesota > > What's book indexing? ---> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:19:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: winhelp indexing Hi Marsha, You write: <1. The very first entry is the main (stub) entry, Accessing. It has Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Book Indexers Chat Log E-mail if you want the log from last night Book Indexers Chat. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:45:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Job Post for Index-L (fwd) Another version of the Wilson ad. Charlotte ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:02:23 -0700 Catalogers/Indexers Requirements include: MLS and subject background in either Art History, Biology, Contemporary Drama, Ecology, Electrical Engineering, Genetics, Liberal Arts, Microbiology, French, German, Spanish,or Italian. Competitive salary & liberal benefits including 4 weeks vacation. Send resume & salary requirements to: Personnel Administration HW Wilson Company 950 University Avenue Bronx, NY 10452 Fax #718-538-2716 e-mail: jobs@hwwilson.com An Equal Opportunity Employer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:52:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper - Reply At 11:49 AM 10/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >I suspect the legibility of paper print compared to screen pixels is at >least as much psychological as physiological. I find that my onscreen >reading/editing improves with use. > >BUT, to me the genuine constraint on electronic communications is dependence >on outside forces, such as power generation, presents genuine threat in a >world weighted toward electronic information. I think the wise persons and >repositories will have hard copy backups. > >Also, electronic information might lead to be backsliding from the >democratization of information through inexpensive book, publishing. Even >though electronics appear inexpensive (and prices plummet by developed world >standards), the expense is incremental. One can buy a book once and read it >during daytime. Other than at public institutions, electronic information >contines to require payment--at least for power. There's also the issue of long-term and archival storage of electronic media. If maintained in even haphazard conditions, paper, papyri, and even animal skins, have a proven track record of longevity (the Nag Hammadi and the Dead Sea Scrolls). Electronic storage will face the same obstacles to long-term storage and use as vinyl and film already do. LPs and film deteriorate quickly unless they are stored under scrupulously clean and tightly controlled environments; witness the desperate effort of film preservationists to save silent era and early talkie films, all less than 100 years old. Ever used a 20 year old microfilm? Electronic data is very vulnerable because the media are so mutable. Treat the debit or credit card in your wallet wrong and the encoded data ceases to 'read' properly and the card must be replaced. We need to give it all a lot more thought. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: quotes on indexing Patricia Buchanan You asked about quotes on the values of indexing. I have a pretty large collection of quotes related to indexing at my web site, listed below. Look under "Indexing Info". Hope this helps, Pilar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing PilarW@aol.com * http://members.aol.com/pilarw/web Committed to the readership that appreciates Great Books ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: HELP with my index from hell! You wrote: > >Hello listers! I'm a lurker who is a MLS student at the Univ of Wi - Madison >and I really could use some help! I am doing a project for my indexing class >that involves developing an index for a club newsletter, mounting it on the >WWW and then creating links to related web sites. So far, Cindex has been >REMARKABLY uncooperative. You wouldn't even believe the trauma just to get a >print copy - or maybe you would : ) Try using PRIND/FILE to convert it to a compatible file type (RTF would work well for MS Word). >Anyway, here's the problem, I want import the complete index from a disk - it >is in "ndx" format/ cindex 6.0 standard version - to microsoft word - in a >windows 95 environment- so that I can mark it up. When my school's computer >guru and I tried this, all we could get were "shots" of single screens that >were captured using the clipboard function. Any ideas on how to move the >whole thing at once? conceivably, I could just move the whole index 1 screen >at a time, but as this thing is 16 print pages, I am not finding this an >attractive option. I'd appreicate any help or suggestions that anyone might >have! >TIA >Julie - jlsnape@aol.com What I'm using for building a web index is HTMLPrep from Leverage Technologies. It converts a cindex file directly into a HTM file. It uses bulleted lists for subheads and indentions. You don't have to include the whole URL in the Cindex file either, just the file name and hypertext target if you are using those. Their web site is http://www.LevTechInc.com Linda Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Coffield Subject: Re: HELP with my index from hell! -Reply I don't know if this has already been suggested, but you can print from Cindex to a file in an .rtf format, which word can read. Once you open the file in word, save as, in a Word format, and you can manipulate it from there. Janice >>> Linda Sloan 10/21/97 11:49am >>> You wrote: > >Hello listers! I'm a lurker who is a MLS student at the Univ of Wi - Madison >and I really could use some help! I am doing a project for my indexing class >that involves developing an index for a club newsletter, mounting it on the >WWW and then creating links to related web sites. So far, Cindex has been >REMARKABLY uncooperative. You wouldn't even believe the trauma just to get a >print copy - or maybe you would : ) Try using PRIND/FILE to convert it to a compatible file type (RTF would work well for MS Word). >Anyway, here's the problem, I want import the complete index from a disk - it >is in "ndx" format/ cindex 6.0 standard version - to microsoft word - in a >windows 95 environment- so that I can mark it up. When my school's computer >guru and I tried this, all we could get were "shots" of single screens that >were captured using the clipboard function. Any ideas on how to move the >whole thing at once? conceivably, I could just move the whole index 1 screen >at a time, but as this thing is 16 print pages, I am not finding this an >attractive option. I'd appreicate any help or suggestions that anyone might >have! >TIA >Julie - jlsnape@aol.com What I'm using for building a web index is HTMLPrep from Leverage Technologies. It converts a cindex file directly into a HTM file. It uses bulleted lists for subheads and indentions. You don't have to include the whole URL in the Cindex file either, just the file name and hypertext target if you are using those. Their web site is http://www.LevTechInc.com Linda Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:36:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: working in the software industry In-Reply-To: <199710201904.MAA09059@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 11:42 AM 10/19/97 -0400, Jan wrote: >I have had software company >clients send me chocolate for my late nights and weekends, >white chocolate >cause they knew that was my favorite - nummy! White chocolate???!!!!! And I thought I was in 7th heaven with the Mrs. Field's cookies, but I see I was only in the 6th!!! ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:36:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710210304.UAA05455@mx3.u.washington.edu> Victoria: the point is not that the home-produced book is better but that this may be the only alternative to those wanting a paper book with prices for publishing materials rising as they are. I no longer buy books in my field (I was a Mongolist before I moved on to other things to make a living). The costs are so out of sight that even a few a year are not possible purchases. If would consider it a viable alternative if I could produce a few of the most expensive ones myself at a reduced cost. As to the quality of a home-produced book necessarily being inferior to what publishers produce: that is only true for some publishers. Some produce poor books that are printed badly, are on bad paper, and fall apart. I doubt if I could beat Cambridge University Press or Oxford, but la-de-la publisher, I think so. Paul D. Buell On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Victoria Baker wrote: > Paul wrote: > > I should point out that a good PostScript printer and good > >paper, plus a binder that knows what he or she is doing, produces very > >pretty books indeed. > > With this I must disagree. The first twenty years of my career were in > book production, not editorial. Home-printed and copy-shop bound books are > in no way the aesthetic experience of a well-made book, even a paperback. > I also seriously question the resource usage home-printing entails. > > I personally don't like to have to turn on my computer to fetch an address, > phone number, or something to read. Computers are noisy and use > electricity, and they don't cuddle up in bed. The paperless computer > office is a joke. More paper is generated in offices now by far. > > Victoria > > vbaker@pacific.net > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:46:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Medical index In-Reply-To: <199710211413.HAA13789@mx3.u.washington.edu> Becky: maybe I have bad luck with the books I buy. To say a kind word, the O'Reilly and Associates people generally do a good job. I like their books too. But look at the indexes of most Osborne books!!! To be sure, it is my opinion, but the majority of the books I use primarily as a C programmer and working on LINUX are poorly indexed. I also find most online indexes are disaster. One of the reasons I stay with the Borland compiler is that their online index is relatively good. Look an the online index for WP 7.0, for example. Paul D. Buell On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Becky Steele/VENTANA wrote: > >>PS: And it is a fact of the matter that while there are many good ones out > there, most computer indexes are God awful.<< > > Paul - I beg to differ with you here. I manage the indexing process for a > publishing of compuater books and if I thought they were trash they would never > go in the book. The team of indexers I use are wonderfully gifted and talented > individuals who make a hard job look easy. The indexers I use often work from > listings given by the author to create an index that is pleasing to both > parties. It doesn't have to be one sided. And if the indexes are not seen > from the proper viewpoint (not the programmers) then maybe the wrong indexer is > doing the work. > > While I realize that this is just you opinion I had to say something to defend > the people who make the books my company does the best they can be. They truly > give extra value to the books and I for one would not want to do this job > without them. > > becky steele > publishing coordinator > > > > > pbuell @ U.WASHINGTON.EDU ("P. Buell") > 10/20/97 12:39 PM > To: INDEX-L @ BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L) @ > INET > cc: (bcc: Becky Steele/VENTANA) > Subject: Re: Medical index > > May I point out that the discussion began in response to a question about > indexing speed by someone I took for a beginner. Responses were often > quite carless about kinds of books being indexed and other things. A > discussion of apples, oranges, pears and rhinoseroses developed which > degenerated from there on. I think the lesson is that there is a need to > be very, very precise in answering this kind of question. I also think > that Dick was quite wrong to take the whole thing personally from message > 1 or 2. I did not find this productive. Paul D. Buell > > PS: And it is a fact of the matter that while there are many good ones out > there, most computer indexes are God awful. I say this not as indexer but > as programmer. I am using a text right now on Microsoft Foundation Classes > for which the index is worth little or nothing. The important things from > a programmer's perspective just do not appear. > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Larry Harrison wrote: > > > Lynn Moncrief wrote, in part: > > > > >I really don't want to step into the middle of this or heat this up any > > >more than it already is, but I really think that Dick isn't being treated > > >with the full decency that we should expect from one another here. > > > > I have been away for a few days, or I would have pitched in earlier. > > This is exactly the problem I have with this discussion. > > People seem to be shooting off quick reactions to statements out of > > context, and talking past each other. I am pleased at the restraint > > Dick has shown in his public responses. I could not blame him if > > he responded privately with a bit more.. ah.. colorful language. > > > > If you think a statement made here looks dubious, write an email > > to the individual privately, asking for some clarification. This > > kind of public impugning of someone's credibility and professional > > standards should be beneath us all. > > > > There may be some hacks and charlatans using this list, but Dick > > Evans is not one of them. I attended a roundtable led by Dick a few > > years ago at an ASI conference. The types of computer books he > > indexes can often be handled with a kind of formulaic or template > > approach, organizing commands and functions in a certain way, > > which he developed to improve indexing consistency and efficiency. > > This method is entirely appropriate for the books he uses it for, > > and it makes the job completely different from, say, indexing a > > biography or a scholarly book on computer science. > > > > When this thread started, there was an opportunity for us to learn from > > the different styles used and kinds of material encountered by all > > the people on the list. Unfortunately, the discussion has slid down to > > a level where assumptions about index quality are being made with > > no information as a basis for these conclusions. This should stop. > > > > Those of us who are concerned about the atmosphere and tone of this > > list need to speak up when this kind of trash happens. > > > > You want to compare indexing rates and speeds? I once indexed > > a 100-page book for $1 a page. It turned out to pay a better hourly > > rate than most books I have done, since it only took me 3.5 hours, > > start to finish. Was it any good? The people at the press said > > "it's the best [..type of book omitted..] index I've ever seen." > > > > Believe it? Do you think you have enough information to judge? > > We'll see. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 > > Freelance book indexing > > Rochester, Minnesota > > > > What's book indexing? ---> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:23:20 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? In-Reply-To: <199710210451.XAA01953@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I also have a Powerbook with a battery that needs replacing. I have been >delaying getting a new battery because Apple wants about $120 for a battery >that will work with my Powerbook 140. Is this BTI battery a better deal? > Where did you get it? Do you know if it is compatible with my older 140? > I'll stop treating Carol like the Oracle at Delphi not. Thanks in advance >for information. > >Beth It costs $90, and I got it from either MacZone or MacWarehouse, I forget which. Their phone numbers are 800-248-0800 and 800-255-6227, respectively. Or you can order online at www.maczone.com and www.macwarehouse.com. And yes, it's compatible with a 140--it's for any PowerBook from 140 through 180c. Just make sure to order the NiMH battery, *not* the NiCad. Glad I could help. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:19:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "SHARON J. STEINBERG" Subject: Re: oy vey In-Reply-To: <199710151448.KAA19063@alcor.concordia.ca> Dear Rachel, I think what you should do is give him a full reference, as if he does not appear later on in the book. In other words, write out all the information you would put about anyone you are citing for the first and possibly only time. Then when he appears later on, you can make a reference to the previous citation if you want to, but it is not necessary. Best wishes, Sharon On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Rachel Rice wrote: > I think we've discussed this before, but I'm doing a book on Judaism with > tons of indented quotes that start on one page, and finish on the next, > with the person quoted at the end. When I cite that person, what do I do > about the page range? The guy doesn't show up until p. 10 for example, but > the reference to him begins on page 9. > > Thanks in advance. > > Rachel > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:26:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Controlled Vocabulary Developer Assistant - Corbis Corporation FYI.... This was posted on PNLA-L (Pacific Northwest Library Association Listserv) this afternoon. -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:12:12 -0700 From: Andrew Grove Reply-To: pnla-l@wln.com To: 'PNLA ListServ' Subject: Position announcement Controlled Vocabulary Developer Assistant - Corbis Corporation Corbis Corporation is building a comprehensive digital photographic library, applying state-of-the-art digital technologies and advanced software to enhance the display and enjoyment of visual information in a broad spectrum of subjects, including the arts, history, science, travel, society, current affairs, and popular culture. Corbis will then make this material available to a wide audience through visual information systems utilizing existing and emerging distribution technologies. One full-time or two part-time positions are available to assist in building and maintaining Corbis' controlled vocabulary, including a polyhierarchical thesaurus, for indexing and accessing records in an image database. Duties and Responsibilities: * Reviewing and researching terms suggested by Media Catalogers for inclusion in the thesaurus as to appropriateness and suitability for describing and indexing images. * Structuring terms within the hierarchically-arranged thesaurus * Developing assigned sections of the thesaurus * Providing enhancements to controlled vocabulary in the form of notes to Catalogers (definitional, usage, etc.), lead-in terms (variant spellings, words with similar meanings, etc.), and links to related terms and concepts. Required Qualifications: * A BA in a liberal arts discipline. * Attention to detail and accuracy. * Ability to work independently. * Experience using Mac or Windows applications. Recommended Qualifications: * Coursework or experience indexing or classifying. * Coursework, experience, or interest in thesaurus construction and maintenance. * An MLS degree or significant progress towards an MLS degree. Send Resume and References to: Corbis Corporation Attn.: Human Resources Manager / CVD Assistant 15395 SE 30th Place, Suite 300 Bellevue, WA 98007 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:19:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: names in history books Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to treat this situation: A particular person is discussed throughout a history book that I am indexing, and at times I have led the reader to discussions in the text regarding his marriage, death, and some other important events in their life by means of subentries. Other times his actions are discussed in conjunction with what he did in certain cities. I would like to make reference to these events by such subentries as "at New York" or something similiar. Of course the main entry would be the person's name. However, it has been said that it is not advisable to have subentries with only one reference locator and that is what would result from doing this. Yet, I cannot make reference to these other events without doing so. I also thought of just posting the reference locators right after his name and then follow that with the other subentries I already mentioned regarding other aspects of his life. Any ideas? Kevin A. Broccoli