From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 8-JAN-1998 15:23:15.88 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9712D" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:57:56 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9712D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:33:53 -0700 Reply-To: kblack@itsnet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristen Black Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment I haven't received any messages from the list since 12/19/97. Am I alone? Do I need to check on my subscription with someone? Or is everyone else also caught up in the last-minute Christmas rush? (And no, I can't believe that I actually logged into my e-mail on Christmas night.) Thanks! Kristen Black Freelance Editor, Writer, and Indexer kblack@itsnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 21:53:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: test - ignore Just checking to see if I'm still subscribed. Not a single post received for at least three days. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:58:30 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rosalind Lund Subject: Re: self-employment In-Reply-To: <882546499.068709.3@listserv.cuny.edu> I have been self-employed as an indexer for over 17 years now, starting just before my eldest was born. Not all my jobs have been indexing - I have done editing and proof reading as well. Nowadays I also help my husband with invoicing for his secondhand book business - hence the Web address below. When the children were pre-school I was lucky enough to have a succession of friends, child-minders etc who were willing to look after a child/children on a regular basis and increase the time if I had a heavy workload. Although I found I could work in the evenings when they had gone to bed I really needed to have time to myself in order to concentrate on work adequately. Once they got older and were at school obviously I had more time during the day for work - only problem then is that they need more time in the evenings - help with homework etc! Now that my husband is self-employed also we find ourselves working far harder than we would if we were employed. But we have the advantage of being able to have friends round during the day occasionally, I can rush off and look after my parents (an hours drive away) if necessary and we are always here for the children. Working for ourselves is also far less stressful for us as we don't have office politics to deal with - just the occasional spat between husband and wife! Of course it doesn't suit everyone, but those who can work it, wouldn't want to live any other way. Happy Christmas -- Rosalind Lund 1 Arbury Road Cambridge CB4 2JB England email : rosalind@lundboox.demon.co.uk Catalogue on the Web: http://antiquarian.com/lund-theological Phone +44 (0)1223 565303 Fax +44 (0)1223 565206 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:52:55 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Schwilk, Michael" Subject: jokes in indexes Hi all, Just read an interesting post on the copyediting list regarding index preparation. Along with the final steps of editing and adding cross-refs., the writer suggests: "add...the joke (traditionally, every _good_index has a single joke, which the indexer is not obliged to identify)." She goes on to say that this should not be a false or circular entry, but should add a touch of irony, or a pun or play on words. Also she adds that it should not introduce inappropriate levity to a serious topic. Curiously, just last week an indexer called to ask if she could inject a touch of irony in an entry on free lifetime health care, "courtesy" of the Tuskeegee (sp?) study (of syphilis in black men.) I told her go for it. My question for the list is: Has anyone heard of this "tradition?" I never have, but kind of like the idea myself. Happy holidays everyone! Mike Schwilk Academic Press ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:38:59 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LCSick Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: self-employment I took a different approach to the self-employment vs employment issue. As a database indexer, I don't often (sometimes) have to worry about the supply of work, but I did find it hard to discipline myself when I was working solely at home, missed SOME of the people contact, and found excuses to avoid working. So, I took a permanent part-time position with one company (including vacation, regular checks, health insurance)--and this is a company that has a very positive working environment, and I can do about half of my hours at home. Basically, I get to sit at my desk and do my work, just as if I were at home but without all the distractions. In addition, a have a contract with one other database producer where I do all the work at home. I've ended up with a lot of flexibility and the chance to do just what I love to do, while providing my family with valuable security and health insurance. I don't know of this is an option for book indexers, but those of you who are employed full-time might pursue the possibilities for telecommuting with your employers. Conversely, those of you working full-time at home and finding it difficult might search for a company that offers part-time employment, or full-time employment with the option of telecommuting. I think it depends on each individual's nature--things like need for contact with people or individual family circumstances--and then requires about a year (or more) seeking out a more ideal arrangement than one that is either-or. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:10:52 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: lbindex Subject: File Transfer Greetings, As a lurker for a couple of years, I have printed and filed info on some topics that I thought would eventually be critical. One on these topics was electronic file transfer, or attaching index files to e-mail messages. I finally had a publisher request this service, and thanks to the discussions and tips saved from index-l, it was received by the publisher safely. I read the saved messages like a textbook. The messages were reassuring and the process was efficient. Thanks to all, Lee Brower Loveland, Colorado ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:30:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Due to the Christmas and New Year holidays we will postponed the ICQ chat on Thursday till January 8, 1998 We have add an afternoon chat for those who would like a break from work. This time will also be beneficial to those in Europe and Australia. Do to lack of participation we have discontinued the Saturday morning chats. Book Indexers Chat has chosen ICQ as the preferred method of communication between its members. ICQ empowers members with any internet provider a means to chat whenever they like and enables them to share ideas, discuss similar interests, sever distances and come to know each other personally in a relaxed environment. We encourage all members of Index-L and anyone interested in all kinds of indexing to get ICQ and join our ICQ Book Indexers Chat Room. All interested in joining our discussions are invited. The webb page for downloading ICQ is: http://members.aol.com/bookindexr We meet at two times a week: Thursdays- 6:00 p.m. Pacific, 7:00 p.m. Mountain, 8:00 p.m. Central, 9:00 p.m. Eastern Mondays-1:30 p.m. Pacific, 2:30 p.m. Mountain, 3:30 p.m. Central, 4:30 p.m. Eastern. If your time zone is not listed or you have further questions, please write me. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:16:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anntrue Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Medical or veterinary indexer? I wonder if there are any indexers who work on medical or veterinary indexes who would be willing to help a newbie in the field. What I have in mind is just someone who could field an occasional question - such as, I don't have a very good idea of rates for this subject, or if indexers of this area are much in demand. I just wrote a reply on the self-employment thread & realized that I have much less confidence here than I did when starting my vet practice. I know much less about the _client interaction_ side of indexing. I have completed the USDA basic course, and plan to start looking for work & to take the second USDA course in 1998. If there is anyone out there who is willing to be my security blanket when I get bamboozled by this new enterprise, please reply to me personally. Ann Truesdale (DVM) anntrue@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:16:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anntrue Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment I could not agree more with Janet & Christine about the pros of self employment. However, if you are in the position of needing to hire employees to help run your business most of the stated benefits disappear. Your _employees_ bring all the petty personal adjustment problems and competitiveness to work and you, as boss, have to deal with them. Not to mention unreliability, frequent turnover, payroll taxes, and perhaps OSHA regulations. I have been self-employed for the past 18 years (as a veterinary practice owner) and I am selling that business to start indexing. I can not deal with the crises caused by my employee problems any more. Thank goodness indexing can be done _all by yourself_!! Also, I will not have to set my schedule to cater to public demand. Some clients even demand (without success) that I be available 24 hours a day, although there is an emergency clinic in the area! (I'm not expecting that I won't have some unreasonable indexing clients.) Within the next few months I will be at home, self employed with no employees and setting my hours to suit my preferences. Hooray!! Ann Truesdale anntrue@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:56:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Self-Employment vs Employment One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the matter of practical choice. My last three full-time jobs in the corporate world ended against my will. In two cases there were departmental RIFs (reductions in force). In the third case, the owner of the company (a data processing service bureau) sold the company's contracts with no transfer of employees. All of this happened within a time span of just over four years. After a little floundering I discovered indexing and am now quite pleased to have more control of my future than I ever had in the corporate workplace. There's one other factor. When a company that I worked for did well it made me feel kind of good, especially if they shared their largess with the employees. When my company does well I feel absolutely terrific about it. Happy holidays! Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:31:40 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Alice G. Klingener" Subject: JOB with CNET.COM (fwd) >>---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:59:45 -0800 >>From: Sean Lally >>Reply-To: "ASIS-L: American Society for Information Science" >> , >> Sean Lally >>To: ASIS-L@asis.lib.indiana.edu >>Subject: JOB with CNET.COM >> >>Snap! Online (http://www.snap.com) a property of CNET The Computer Network >>(http://cnet.com)seeks a highly qualified Web Librarian/Ontologist. This >>position will be located in our San Francisco HQ. >> >>We're looking to hire a full-time and highly qualified Ontologist/Librarian >>who is an expert in classifying information. We're thinking that the ideal >>candidate would actually have professional experience and some sort of >>advanced degree in Information, Library Science or Ontology. Someone who >>worked as a corporate librarian or municipal librarian might be a good >>choice, as well as somebody who was going to graduate school in ontology. >>The person needs to have experience with the Web, and particularly using >>search engines. >> >>I appreciate that this is not much to go on but I wanted to see if there >>were any subscribers with an immediate interest in exploring opportunities >>with a recognized leader in new media. I hope to post a more complete >>position description including required skills and responsibilities in the >>very near future. >> >>Please email resumes or questions to Sean Lally (seanl@cnet.com) >> >>for more info please check out our sites: >> >> >> http://www.cnet.com >> http://www.snap.com >> http://www.shareware.com >> http://www.shareware.com >> http://www.tv.com >> http://www.mediadome.com >> http://www.download.com >> http://www.buydirect.com >> http://www.search.com >> http://www.activex.com >> http://www.gamecenter.com >> http://www.computers.com >> >> >> >>- >>CNET is hiring! >> >>http://www.cnet.com/Jobs >> >> >>Sean Lally >>Director, Corporate Recruiting >>seanl@cnet.com >>http://www.cnet.com >> >> >>You're one click away from a totally new Internet. >>Try CNET's new service: Snap! Online. >>http://www.snap.com >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------ >Sally Klingener Tele: (413) 545-0449 >Biology Department Manager Fax: (413) 545-3243 >221 Morrill Science Center Email: sallyk@bio.umass.edu >University of Massachusetts >Amherst, MA 01003 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------ > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:48:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: E-mail newsletters I have the oppurtunity to index a year's worth of E-mail newsletters. How would one go about this in terms of reference locators? I haven't seen the newsletters yet, but I'm asuming that you just scroll down to read the various articles. Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:37:01 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CccJlc Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment I have a different take on the whole childcare issue. I have step-children who are supposed to be here with us from noon Dec. 26 to 6:00 PM Jan. 4. My husband is on 24 hour call and is currently working 12-14 hour days, which is expected to last at least 2 weeks; in other words, right through that whole visitation period. It's only a week and a half, but it still destroys my schedule for the whole time. Needless to say, I have "discuss childcare" on my list of things to do today! I certainly don't mind helping, but I also don't want to be left holding the bag, something that has happened to me more than once. "Well, Chris is home, she's not doing anything, she can...." Right. Similar to, "You knew he had kids when you married him." What they don't know is that we agreed that he would take responsibility for all that. Like I said, I don't mind helping, but 1) they are not *my* kids, 2) I don't get to make any of the decisions but get all the responsibility, and 3) hey, I have a life, too, and I don't think I should have to drop everything because of an erratic visitation schedule. I have learned to deal with the weekends. Anyone else have similar conflicts? Chris Cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:48:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Herr Hallinger Organization: Herr's Indexing Service Subject: Author index for journal I prepare subject and author indexes for several medical journals. The page references in these indexes generally refer to just the first page of an article (7 and not 7-14 for example). Many of these journals also have letters to the editor which are also indexed. When a letter runs from page 7 to page 8 the names of the authors do not appear until page 8. My question (finally) is would people index the author on page 7 or 8? I was curious because I recently have an encounter with a new editor who informed me that I had the wrong page number for the letter authors. I will, of course, adapt to the style of this editor, but wondered if people preferred the page reference to lead you to the beginning or the end of the letter. Thanks. Linda Hallinger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:55:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment In response to Janet Perlman's comments about indexing with young children: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ggreen Subject: permission to mention list in book I am writing a book on Internet resources for writers, which will include a section on writing-related mailing lists. I would like to include INDEX-L in the listing, but the subscription confirmation indicates that its existence should not publicly be mentioned. I will certainly omit the listing in respect of your wishes, but would first like to confirm that your policy is still as stated. I would appreciate if the list owner-manager could get back to me. Thank you. ggreen@infotelligence.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:14:46 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: ISO 999 (Apologies if this duplicates a previous message I sent, but I received no acknowledgement of it and can't find it in the archives.) May I ask you all where in the following sequence a heading for "Smith, Elder and Co." should be filed according to the recommendations of ISO 999: Smith, Ailsa Smith, Anna Smith, Elizabeth M. Smith, Joan Smith, Miriam Smith, S. Percy Should it be between Anna and Elizabeth M. (which is where my HyperIndex software puts it), or at the end, after S. Percy? I see that Wellisch, 2nd edn, under "Homographs", recommends that strict alphabetical order should be followed except in very long and complex indexes, where a classified arrangement may be necessary. Mulvany, p. 123, also recommends alphabetical order. But according to Pat F. Booth's article in the April 1997 Indexer, the sequence recommended in ISO 999 is "that the term (with or without subheadings) comes first, followed by the term with qualifier, and finally the term as the first element of a longer heading" -- which I interpret to mean that "Smith, Elder & Co" would come at the end of the sequence. Have I understood the matter correctly? (I haven't yet seen ISO 999, but am relying entirely on the passage I have quoted from Pat Booth's article.) From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: no mail I have received no mail whatsoever from the list all weekend. Could it be that no one has been writing in the last couple of days? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: G JONES <95003937@LAMBTON.ON.CA> Subject: A Major New Site for Bibliophiles (fwd) The Reader's Catalog is a telephone-book-sized compendium of annotations to the 40,000 best books in print. If you haven't seen it yet, you are in for a surprise. It is enormous in both size and scope, containing the work of over 140 contributors spread over 2000 pages. The makers of The Reader's Catalog have launched a companion web site that is certain to become a literary landmark on the World Wide Web. Called "n.b.", it provides annotations for 200 new books each month, along with crisp reviews of noteworthy titles, selected excerpts, and other features. n.b. satisfies the need for the new without sacrificing the scrutiny of an editor. n.b. is currently running reviews of some 20 new releases, including: => New American Blues: the Private Life of the Poor, by Earl Shorris => Jesus Saves, by Darcy Steinke => Parting from Phantoms: Selected Writings, 1990-1994 => Notes from the Underground: Zines and the Politics of alternative Culture, by Stephen Duncombe => Impressionism, by Meyer Schapiro At the present time -- and for the foreseeable future -- there is no charge to use n.b. and there are no ads. n.b. is a gift from the people at The Reader's Catalog who love good books and want to share their finds with you. You'll find n.b. at the following URL: http://readcat.nybooks.com/index-to.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Michaud Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment In-Reply-To: <199712191509.KAA03430@mx01.erols.com> At 09:07 AM 12/19/97 -0600, you wrote: >Those of you who have done it with >kids at home: what would you say to the people who call me? >-- What I would tell people who call is that they should evaluate carefully how much money they need, how many hours in the day they can free up, how tolerant their kids will be of parental work, how tolerant they will be of distractions. Is there a working spouse/significant other who is bringing in enough income to get you through the slow times? Does your spouse have health insurance that will cover the whole family? How many hours do your children sleep, go to school, preschool, playgroup, watch tv, visit friends, or otherwise stay out from under parental feet? This can be work time. Personally, I think it is impossible to work with a preschool-age child underfoot. At least, it is impossible for me to work with my son (26 months) around. He goes to daycare part-time. If you are completely opposed to daycare, perhaps you can work out a schedule with your spouse (if you have one) such that you work in the evenings, on the weekends, and during naps. This might get you 20 hours per week of work time if you schedule carefully. That's my advice anyhow. Everyone is different and one person's ideal situation is another's nightmare. And everyone's kids are different too. My sister-in-law works at home full-time with two kids. But her older child is very independent, and her baby takes a five hour nap every afternoon. My two-year-old has pretty much given up naps, and has a complete fit if I focus on something other than him for more than five minutes. It just works better for us that I only work when he is at daycare, and focus just on him when he is home. My $.02. Christine Michaud cmichaud@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:16:00 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: ISO 999 May I ask you where in the following sequence a heading for "Smith, Elder and Co." should be filed according to the recommendations of ISO 999: Smith, Ailsa Smith, Anna Smith, Elizabeth M. Smith, Joan Smith, Miriam Smith, S. Percy Should it be between Anna and Elizabeth M. (which is where my HyperIndex software puts it), or at the end, after S. Percy? I see that Wellisch, 2nd edn, under "Homographs", recommends that strict alphabetical order should be followed except in very long and complex indexes, where a classified arrangement may be necessary. Mulvany, p. 123, also recommends alphabetical order. But according to Pat F. Booth's article in the April 1997 Indexer, the sequence recommended in ISO 999 is "that the term (with or without subheadings) comes first, followed by the term with qualifier, and finally the term as the first element of a longer heading" -- which I interpret to mean that "Smith, Elder & Co" would come at the end of the sequence. Have I understood the matter correctly? (I haven't yet seen ISO 999, but am relying entirely on the passage I have quoted from Pat Booth's article.) From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment In-Reply-To: <199712191733.AA05524@world.std.com> Indexing with small children - yes, many publishers' deadlines are quite tight. Other than working during Sesame Street and naps when my children were little, my husband took over when he came home. I would start working at around 7 and could often go until 10. He would do the baths and bedtime routines. Even now, 7 years after I started working, he still does this and it's the most important time that my boys spend with their dad. There are certainly days when he wishes I'd help more with bedtime (and sometimes I do) but I know it's special to all of them. Sometimes it's a bit of a relief after a long day to let go of the childcare and sit at the computer (located near the bottom of the stairs) and listen to them give him a hard time about something for a change!! I do stay up late working many evenings. But I still need a good book going because I can't log off the computer and fall asleep immediately. I can't get up early and work but I know plenty of work-at-home moms who do. Try and get publishers to send you work as early as possible (often difficult). It usually takes me a day or two to settle in to a job, by which time I'm thinking I'll never get it done. Ask how flexible the deadline is (usually not at all in my experience). Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:43:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment and motherhood I am presently a part-time indexer with a preschooler, and it is not easy. BUT, it is worth it to be available as a parent. I was established as a freelancer before I had my son, so I was not faced with starting a business and trying to make contacts while I had him. That was another point in favor of freelancing with a child. I also have had to explain carefully to my husband that if he likes the money, he has to contribute to the child care. It does mean that sometimes we feel like a divorced family living in the same house. I take care of Jared and the house during the week and he takes care of Jared on the weekends. (I'm still working on getting him to take care of the house, but usually I spend a good part of Monday cleaning up.) I do send Jared to preschool 3 4-hour mornings a week, but that is not enought to get substantial work done (given drive time, detach time, and such). I also work nights when he's asleep, and used to work during his afternoon naps (before he gave them up). It is a real job that takes concentration, effort, energy, and time. I fight off people who call and think I have time to chat even after I've explained that I'm facing sudden death deadlines. I can't take part in everything that full-time parents can. BUT, there are tremendous advantages, or I wouldn't be doing it. I just don't want prospective indexers/mothers to think it will be a piece of cake that they can do while directing child play. And some of you may have lower maintenance kids than I have. Mine is high maintenance and always has been, from the colicky, screaming baby who had surgery at 8 weeks to the sensitive genius he is now (Sorry, I had to put in a plug for him given that he is the joy of my life AND takes priority over indexing when push comes to shove). OK, the advantages. I just got back from a field trip with the preschool. I have time to be with him, to play with him, to attend functions (not all, but enough). I make far more per hour than I would in a part-time "regular" job. I do not have to depend on day care full time, and I hate the thought of someone else raising my son. Those are my personal priorities. I will be able to pick up more work when he starts to attend elementary school, and yet I will still be home in the afternoons to greet him. I'll also be available and on premises when he's a teenager, and I believe that parental presence will probably keep him a little straighter (please don't bust my bubble on this one). And, although it doesn't challenge me intellectually, I love being a parent. And indexing does challenge me intellectually, so I have the best of both worlds. As Jared gets older, he understands that Mommy has to work in her office, and that her office is here at home. He was a dream during the killer project that I did. He played and entertained himself for 1 1/2 weeks while I worked. I couldn't do that to him full time, though. OH, this is long, so, in summary, chances are that you won't be able to work at home with children without some sort of child care, be it school or a sitter or a spouse. It is not easy. But, it does allow you to take advantage of your time and be a more participative parent (at least on a part-time basis--full-time could not be done without child care and serious participation sacrifices.) And that's my take on the subject. Good day, I'm off to play at mailing packages since we just mailed off about 10 at the post office. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:45:58 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: seasonal cards Given that this is the time for sending cards, and I do send out cards to my clients, I'd like to know how many of you, if any, include a business card in your holiday cards? My concern is that I've changed my business name and my signature is unreadable at best. I'd like to think of a way to remind people that 'tis I. Thanks, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Airborne I had a friend on the Vineyard who worked for Airborne for 5 years until she burned out. This is all second hand and tinged by the fact that she was disgruntled, but she said they wouldn't hire any extra help, there were only 2 of them to cover the whole island 365 days a year, they never even received the packages from "America" until around 2 p.m. and then had to deliver every single one of course before going home, so their days were almost always 16-18 hrs, and at Christmas she had often worked until past 2 a.m. and then would have to put up with customers complaining to her face and to her bosses, and they would never hire extra help, and on and on. I don't get the impression the company is very well run, to say the least. And the pay wasn't good, either. FWIW. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:43:49 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: self-employment I know this came up before when there was a discussion of self employment vs employment but don't forget there is the third option of telecommuting. Though you might have to negotiate with the employer regarding fringe benefits etc it is worth it as you have the freedom to set your day and schedule (again you have to work with the employer) as well as having a steady paycheck. Roberta Horowitz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:15:34 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: self-employment >From Christine Headley I've been indexing since before my elder daughter was born, carried on indexing until a fortnight before she was due (not wishing to leave an index in the computer when I went to hospital) and had paid enough National Insurance contributions to get Maternity Benefit for three months after she was born. While she was a baby it was easy to fit indexing round her sleeps. As she got older I sent her to a childminder who looked after several children in her own home, both for socialisation and for me to work. Luckily, Gill was able to have her for more hours if I had a lot of work and fewer if I didn't. Before she started full-time school she went to nursery school every morning, and I could squeeze in an hour and a half if I put my mind to it. Elder daughter was at school by the time younger daughter came along - same scenario, though she was only childminded for one job before I left the UK for Hong Kong. At two, my hope that she will sleep for two hours before lunch is usually fulfilled. I also have a cleaner who also cares for the children for enough hours to make a difference on two days a week, and a hugely supportive husband. Indexing in the evening in the same room as he is watching television is not always easy, but it seems easier than dragging the computer table into the bedroom. I catch up on work at weekends, and reckon to work two to three hours in the evening. I estimate for work on the basis that I can index about four hours, seven days a week. Exactly when I do it is obviously my business, not theirs. After one horrible job (632 pages expanded to 650), I swore not to do another book of more than 350 pages until my younger daughter started school. So my advice to newbie-indexer-cum-mother would be: 1. Leave really short deadlines to others; you will get work by virtue of being realistic and agreeing achievable deadlines. Your editor will keep going back to the same people for the rush jobs - you don't need to join them. 2. If you can, get someone in for a couple of sessions a week when they can clean your house and take responsibility for your child. (You will pay them less than you make from indexing.) A supportive partner is also very useful. However, if you are caring for children on your own, you can work when other women might be talking to their husbands in the evenings! Good luck all! Christine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:36:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: self-employment I've been freelancing for over 25 years, and I'm very happy with my choice. I started before my son was born and worked right through his infancy and toddler stage (albeit with some paid help and day care), and it worked out fine for me. However, this is such an individual choice, that it is hard to say that one way is better than another. Most of the time I've been freelancing, my husband has been well-employed and earning a reasonable amount of money...plus all the perks of corporate life like life and health insurance, paid vacations, and so on. More than anything, though, we counted on his regular paycheck to counteract the wildly varying amounts I would earn in any one time period. Eight years ago, he lost his job...permanently, as it's turned out...and suddenly there were two of us trying to keep everything together with about half as much money as we were used to earning. He opened his own architectural practice in the middle of the worst building depression in CA history, and simultaneously we had to start paying two self-employment taxes, buying our own health insurance, and so forth. Financial insecurity can make you real crazy, real fast! Overall, I wouldn't change much--if anything--about my work life. But I'd recommend that anybody considering this lifestyle be prepared for whatever can happen when you're thinking about other things, to paraphrase John Lennon. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:51:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: young children I work about half time with a 5 year old in the house. He goes to preschool 3 afternoons a week, and I trade babysitting with two other mothers. I find that it is easy to work 30 hours a week, which is more than enough time to complete one project at a time. I can do two projects at a time, but it does put a strain on the parenting, so I try to schedule things so that nothing overlaps too much. When I was first getting established, I took everything that came along, which sometimes meant 50 hour weeks, but now that I have well-established clients, I turn things down regularly. I would say indexing with little kids is possible and absolutely wonderful if 1. you are content with a half-time salary--full time is too much with kids underfoot. 2. you have a supportive spouse, who is willing to be the primary parent on weekends and evenings. 3. you can schedule regular trades with other mothers. I am very lucky to live in a town where I know lots of people who can watch my child during a crunch week. 4. you have a relatively low-maintenance child. 5. you don't care what your house looks like. 6. you don't care what you eat for dinner. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:55:43 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexserv Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment Beth wrote: " As such, it would also be very useful to know whether freelance indexing work can be realistically scheduled in 4-5 hour blocks per day, or do the publisher's schedules usually require longer days and nights in order to get the work done. What types of indexing work (if any) lends itself to a more structured pace? " It's easy for me to schedule an indexing project where I can structure a 7 hour workday, and index X number of pages each 7 hour day, have one 7 hour day to edit and re-edit, and get the index where it needs to go with hours to spare. But-It's easy for a publisher to make alterations to text, causing sections of the book to repaginate, and throwing a large monkey wrench into the happy little "7 hour" plan. The thing that frustrates me the most about freelancing is the thing I love the most about it...it's impossible to predict. So many factors interrupt the indexing process. It doesn't take much to take a 7 hour day well into the night and early morning. I do have an on-going project that has been structured perfectly, and that I've been able to apply a set schedule to, but that is the only solid project I've worked on. In that case, it's a publisher with a relaxed schedule of their own, who has their material ready to go to print (completely) when I get it, and they schedule time for the indexing procedure. This is extremely rare, or so I've found. I'll still fly the flag of the self-employed, though. To me, it's the difference between working for someone, and working with someone. You can never beat good democratic teamwork as opposed to the corporate ladder. Too many fingers get stepped on while you climb. Just an opinion, though... Tim Griffin Indexserv@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:25:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BVLDais Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Kids at Home--Looking for more work too! I have to comment on the working at home with small children. I have to say DITTO to Sarah's comments. I work at home with one toddler (2). I started working from home, just a project here and there to keep my technical science skills somewhat intact. Then, when my husband walked out about 6 weeks ago, I decided that I had to make it work to allow me to remain home with my son and keep the bills paid. I've found a couple more projects and that's helped. My son is a very independent little boy but is really good about playing quietly nearby while I work. I take time to play and really focus during naptime and after he goes to bed. I've just completed two book indexews in the past 2 weeks. I can really crank out the work when I have to and I'm thankful to have a patient child. I specialize in scientific books, most specifically chemistry!! Fun stuff! If you know of anyone looking for this specialty, feel free to send them my way. I can provide my resume and references, if needed. Working at home IS possible with small kids. Discipline (for yourself; not necessarily the kids!!) is the key to my success...so far!! Virginia A. Dais, Ph.D. BVLDais@aol.com 368 E Saginaw Road Sanford, MI 48657 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:55:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment In response to Janet Perlman's comments about indexing with young children: I don't. I have the children, yes, but I try hard not to index when they are in the house. Actually, my oldest is 12, and I can index with him around on vacation. Still, I plan to have him enrolled in summer school enrichment or something in summer, because I don't think it's fair to him for him to just "hang around" and watch TV. Summers here in Houston are brutally hot and humid, and I won't force him to go outside. My daughter, 5 years old, is another story. I've been indexing since she was 3. I put her in a three-day/week program at age 2.5 when I first started, but I had a hard time meeting deadlines. I like to have serious blocks of time to work (3-4 hours at least), and doing it piecemeal in the evenings/weekends was really messing up family time. So, I sprang for the full week of preschool and it's much better, although the commute to the good school I found is 40 min. round trip twice a day. Once she goes to kindergarten next year, I should have longer work days and fewer weekend mornings at the computer. I certainly couldn't handle it mentally, indexing with young ones underfoot. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:58:10 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGWeaver Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Author index for journal The journals that I index (mostly medical) either use inclusive pagination for the article (7-14) or have paragraph-by-paragraph indexing (like b.o.b.) with locators referring to the page where the material appears. Letters to the editor follow the same practice; I''ve never done one that uses only the first page of the article in the locator, tho I have used 7+ to refer to an article with page ranges broken by unrelated material. Doesn't matter where the author's NAME appears; pages numbers for the material he wrote are what appear in the index. But essentially, as in all styles, the client determines the format, unless he says, "What do you recommend?" Carolyn Weaver In a message dated 97-12-27 14:43:56 EST, you write: << I prepare subject and author indexes for several medical journals. The page references in these indexes generally refer to just the first page of an article (7 and not 7-14 for example). Many of these journals also have letters to the editor which are also indexed. When a letter runs from page 7 to page 8 the names of the authors do not appear until page 8. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: index-l has returned Hi all, Hope you enjoyed the holidays. I was out of town when the messages stopped and apologize for inconvenience caused...especially those who were hoping for some assistance with an immediate problem. Also, apologies for the recent sudden influx of messages. I do not know why the list hung up this time. We were not out of disk space. At any rate, we are back in business...keep the messages coming. Charlotte Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:30:56 -0600 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: Re: Author index for journal Linda Herr Hallinger wrote: > > I prepare subject and author indexes for several medical journals. The > page references in these indexes generally refer to just the first page > of an article (7 and not 7-14 for example). Many of these journals also > have letters to the editor which are also indexed. When a letter runs > from page 7 to page 8 the names of the authors do not appear until page > 8. > > My question (finally) is would people index the author on page 7 or 8? > ----------------------------------------------- I also index medical journals, and some of them are done the same way Linda Herr Hallinger describes. I have always assigned the page number where the author's name actually appeared. My rationale was that if someone looked on the page where the letter (or editorial, or whatever) and did not find the author's name, they would be unhappy and think the indexer made an error. I've never had any complaints (thus far!) Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:51:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: jokes in indexes This was discussed at some length a while back. I believe the consensus was that it's not a good idea. Publishers trust their indexers to produce professional indexes and the vision of indexers inserting bits of humor did not appeal to them. I have one client whose indexer guidelines specifically refer to "jocular" entries. Such entries may be tolerated, if brought to the attention of the editor before the index is published. Other clients have no specific guidelines. Personally, I feel it's hard enough to make a comprehensive, accurate index without trying to make it funny too. As for it being a tradition, it's not one I am familiar with. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:43:56 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: QUERY - eeeeuuu and a question or two In-Reply-To: <199712181821.KAA24315@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 10:20 AM 12/18/97 -0800, Lindsay wrote: >At 11:32 AM 12/17/97 -0800, Lynn Moncrief wrote: >> >>There may be slight variations between versions of >>the Bible, but it's probably on the order of "The Holy Gospel of Jesus >>Christ According to St. John" (as in the version I have here but without >>the "St."). If the version discussed in Martha's book uses a title that >>refers to the book as being the Gospel of Christ as my version does, it >>would be inaccurate to use "John (Gospel of)", which implies that it's >>John's Gospel. I don't think that the author wants to imply that unless >>that is indeed the stance taken in the text. ;-D I think that "John, Gospel >>According to" is much safer, even though it is longer. > >Because there are so many variations between Bibles as to the precise title >of the some books, the indexer would need to follow the author's >preference. It's the *reader* who needs to accomodate the difference >between the *author* using a Bible that says "The Holy Gospel According to >St. John" when the reader uses a Bible that calls it "The Gospel of John." Lindsay, (Now that the list is back, I can post this. I thought I had been accidently unsubscribed.) Ironic, isn't it, that this is the Gospel that begins with "In the beginning was the Word." And, verily I say unto you, a debate swept across the land on how it should be indexed. ;-D I really shouldn't have muddied the waters by speaking of variations between versions because the variations seem to be quite minor (e.g., St. John vs. John, whether the word "Holy" is included, etc.) I called around and asked people to check their Bibles on how they titled the Gospels. All versions checked used "according to". This isn't surprising because of the religious implications of "according to" vs. "of" and this is an element of Christian belief that seems to span all denominations and is thus followed in all Bibles. So, it isn't likely that readers will have to accomodate the dramatic differences that you speak of. This is the result of overly cautious writing on my part. > >The indexer might sensibly choose to index what the author calls "The Holy >Gospel According to St. John" as "St. John, Gospel" (under the J's!). And >the indexer would use the author's preference for calling John's other >writing "letters" or "epistles." It isn't "sensible" to chose phrasing that presents the author as taking a very unusual doctrinal stance unless he or she explicitly adopted that stance. It would be doing the author a disservice. Unfortunately, using "of" (which is also implied in "St. John, Gospel") versus "according to" does just that. I wholeheartedly agree with you about following the author's preference. This includes not inadvertantly countering it by using the wrong preposition just to save space. (I doubt that "according to" would wrap anyway in a two-column index.) This all may sound like nitpicking but it becomes extremely important when a mere choice of preposition has profound religious implications and many people care about those issues. You should've heard my sister on why it's "according to" and not "of". ;-D I agree with you about where John's name should be sorted if "St." is used (which I didn't use in my index examples). > >It is standard verbal "shorthand" to say John's Gospel or Gospel of John -- >meaning the gospel John wrote about Jesus -- so "John, Gospel of" would not >be incorrect. I don't believe that what is acceptable verbally is necessarily acceptable when written. Standards are far looser for speech. "John, Gospel of" (or with the "of" implied) is very incorrect because of its religious implications unless the author explicitly referred to it as such. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:12:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: ISO 999 Which of the following does "Smith, Elder & Co." mean? a. A company whose principals are [John] Smith and [Alicia] Elder. b. A company whose only principal is Elder Smith. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:42:59 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: ISO 999 At 08:12 PM 12/27/1997 EST, WordenDex wrote: >Which of the following does "Smith, Elder & Co." mean? >a. A company whose principals are [John] Smith and [Alicia] Elder. >b. A company whose only principal is Elder Smith. Obviously, you can't be certain about this without actually knowing the company history, but 9 times out of ten (or maybe 95 out of 100) it is John Smith and Alicia Elder. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:19:36 -0800 Reply-To: ottesen@ccis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan O. Schionning" Organization: Micron Electronics, Inc. Subject: What is database indexing? Hi all: I just read a post that mentioned database indexing, and I would like to learn more about it. What is involved in creating a database index? How is it created? How does it differ from back-of-the-book indexing? What kinds of businesses need database indexes (and indexers)? Thanks, Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:46:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: sub-entries I have a couple of main headings in an index with 18 to 20 sub-entries. Doesn't that seem like an awful lot? Does it seem like I'm overanalyzing these main headings? I don't want to cut too many of them out because they all seem necessary to me. Any thoughts? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: sub-entries At 11:46 PM 12/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have a couple of main headings in an index with 18 to 20 sub-entries. >Doesn't that seem like an awful lot? Does it seem like I'm overanalyzing >these main headings? I don't want to cut too many of them out because >they all seem necessary to me. Any thoughts? It depends. What's the page span for all the subentries? If you have 20 subentries all on a span of two pages, you are probably overanalyzing. If they cover 50 pages you are probably not. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:20:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexserv Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: sub-entries In a message dated 12/28/97 4:46:19 AM, you wrote: <> Dick Evans' reply to this message was dead on. If most of the entries are concentrated around the same pages, they should exist only as first levels in the index. Otherwise, I think a dozen or more sub-entries is fine. Its more confusing to see a first level entry with 13 or 14 page references after it, rather than a comprehensive list of sub-entries. Tim Griffin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:37:45 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: sub-entries In-Reply-To: <199712280622.WAA05506@pacific.net> Kevin wrote: ><Doesn't that seem like an awful lot? Does it seem like I'm overanalyzing >these main headings? I don't want to cut too many of them out because >they all seem necessary to me. Any thoughts? Adding to previous comments (and hoping not to muddy the waters): If sub-subentries are allowed, at that point I look at all of the subentries to see if I can group them usefully. In many of my indexes I have subentry groups that repeat under many main entries, such as: ethnic differences gender stereotypes [sub-subentries] socioeconomic status gender stereotypes [sub-subentries] gender differences in gender stereotyping [sub-subentries] (These are made-up examples based on my current project, a text on the psychology of women.) And of course then you'd have "see" references under the main head "gender stereotypes" to each of those headings. Whether or not your subentry groups repeat, grouping under main heads makes it easier to understand the main entry. And if you only use sub-subs under a couple of main heads, that's okay too, IMO (if they're allowable). Where appropriate, grouping subheads frequently reveals more structure for the index, suggesting cross-reference paths and even main heads that I hadn't previously discerned. When inappropriate or disallowed, thinking about possible groupings can yield the same kinds of information. Of course, this information also frequently leads to some reorganization of the developing index. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:56:21 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sindexer Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Author index for journal I oversee the indexing of some 120 medical journals...and do many mysef. I have been at this since 1980 (wow I'm old). We have always cited the page that the letter (or book review) BEGINS on. I too have recently had a new editor tell me I'm using the wrong pages. I will do what she asks, but she is wrong. Hope this helps. Sally ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:42:03 -0700 Reply-To: kblack@itsnet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristen Black Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment I may be a little late to join in the mothers-working-at-home thread, but I've been out of comission for a few days...I've been in the hospital after giving birth to my second child. I have a four-year-old son, and now a new baby daughter. I freelance from home, doing editing, writing, and indexing. I do just about everything, from writing copy for a graphics design firm to editing and proofing books for a publisher, to indexing for a publisher, to writing monthly articles for WordPerfect Suite magazine. So this thread is very near and dear to my heart. When I was in college, I planned for this very scenario. Both my father and my father-in-law were self-employed (a graphic designer and a dentist, respectively), so my husband and I each grew up with flexible family schedules, and we loved it. Neither one of us planned on working for corporate America for very long. I wanted to be a technical writer, and I could see the freelancing possibilities as well. I received a degree in English, with an emphasis in professional writing and editing, and a business minor. This summer, I left the large software company I was working for as a technical editor to freelance on my own. The timing wasn't the best, but it had to be done. What helped is that I've freelanced on the side for the past five years, so when I took the plunge, I let everyone know, both publishers I worked for and friends. The years of long nights finishing up one moonlighting job only to go to a day job have paid off. I'm not as busy as I'd like to be at times, but I am at others. For now, I'm doing just fine. With a new baby, I'm not sure how much more I could do or would want to do. I too find jobs in the paper or through my network of friends that I could do very easily. But I wonder if it's worth it. There's nothing like taking a break from a really bad project to hold my daughter or play a game or watch a movie with my son. And the commute here is absolutely horrible, as the state has torn up the main highway that runs through four counties, and the drive time is way too long. I'd rather not be away from my kids for more than 10 hours a day. And I got tired of the office politics, backbiting, and guessing games. I've found that having a supportive spouse makes all the difference in the world. If he comes home one day to the same mess he left in the morning, he doesn't complain (at least out loud!). He understands that I'm doing my part to add to the family finances, and that I've been "at work" too. We work together to run the household. I can also set my own hours, working between midnight feedings if I want to. My son goes to preschool five hours a day, four days a week, and the break is good for both of us. He likes that I'm home more than I used to be, and I like that he still is in a social atmosphere with kids his own age. This reply is much longer than I intended, but like I said earlier, the topic is near and dear to my heart. Kristen Black Freelance Editor, Writer, and Indexer kblack@itsnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:22:44 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CorofinInd Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: jokes in indexes I have heard of the tradition, and occasionally have been able to pull it off. I would never do it with a client I don't know well. I indexed a scholarly book on medieval prayer books which described the pray- er's relationship with Christ in decidedly erotic terms. With the author's permission, I used the entry "good parts" for some of the juicier items. On another, very long project I had told the client about the tradition, but by the time we got to the end of the index I was too exhausted to think of anything. When the client asked where the joke was, I just smiled. Janet Russell > Just read an interesting post on the copyediting list regarding index > preparation. Along with the final steps of editing and adding > cross-refs., the writer suggests: "add...the joke (traditionally, > every _good_index has a single joke, which the indexer is not obliged > to identify)." > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:22:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CorofinInd Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Author index for journal As a reader, being sent to the middle of an article when I expected to find the beginning is very annoying. I wouldn't be confused by not finding the author's name on the page because I know the strong convention that letters are signed at the end. As a former inter-library loan librarian, I would further argue for indexing the beginning of the letter, or even better, indexing the range. Presumably, people would be using your index to find items they wanted to read. In a high-volume ILL situation, copying is sometimes done by a bored student asssistants who copy what they see on the order sheet without checking for logical continuity. If the requesting patron got only the last part of the letter, he or she would be extremely unhappy, which could lead to librarian abuse. Janet Russell > When a letter runs > from page 7 to page 8 the names of the authors do not appear until page > 8. > My question (finally) is would people index the author on page 7 or 8? > I was curious because I recently have an encounter with a new editor who > informed me that I had the wrong page number for the letter authors. I > will, of course, adapt to the style of this editor, but wondered if > people preferred the page reference to lead you to the beginning or the > end of the letter. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:23:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dave Prout Subject: Re: Author index for journal Linda Herr Hallinger's question about page citations raises a couple important points about rules in general: Is it a useful rule if most readers aren't aware of it? Why do so few (if any) indexers agree on the rules? Is the indexer's first responsibility to readers or other indexers or editors? I'd argue someone might prefer to turn back a page for the start of a letter than to turn forward after not finding the name on the page cited in the index. The motor skills are the same, of course, and readability studies probably haven't been done on this specific issue. It's just a hunch based on my assumption of an imaginary "average" reader. But aren't most rules just hunches (hopefully educated) based on assumptions that those who already probably agree with you like? Those with different assumptions (e.g., bosses) can argue the opposite and win, but not necessarily because their rule is more useful. Does anyone feel (as I do) that nonindexers often see our job as mainly following mechanically a long list of arcane and/or inconsistent rules? Is it any wonder they tend to devalue our skills? Don't mean to go off on a philosophic tangent, or worse, but I think these issues are important not only for describing our work and value to others but also for our identity as professionals. Dave Prout prout@together.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:37:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Author index for journal At 03:23 PM 12/28/1997 -0500, Dave Prout wrote: >Linda Herr Hallinger's question about page citations raises a couple >important points about rules in general: Is it a useful rule if most >readers aren't aware of it? Why do so few (if any) indexers agree on the >rules? Is the indexer's first responsibility to readers or other indexers >or editors? I think most indexers DO agree on most rules...and it seems to me that most rules are based on usefulness to the reader. In some more arcane circumstances, you just have to make a determination one way or the other...there is no good guideline already in place. In that case, I add a headnote to my index, explaining why a certain convention has been observed (or created for this particular circumstance). I think most of us agree that if we had our way, the reader would always be "in charge" of how an index is written...it's a reader's tool, after all. However, sometimes we have to take directions from editors or publishers that, IMO, makes an index less reader-friendly. When this happens, I do my best to accommodate both the reader and the editor. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:46:12 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: What is database indexing? I'm a database indexer, and went through kind of an identity crisis last year trying to figure this out. I've been indexing for about 7 years, although when I started out I didn't know I was an indexer. There are two kinds of database indexing from what I can tell. One is the index feature on a database program, and I've forgotten most of what I know about that. It's more like a concordance, where you tell the software what words to look for and the software tells you what records contain the indicated words. I asked the list last year about human indexing of databases, and got no response, so (based on an entirely unscientific poll of indexers and my own personal feeling) humans don't index databases after they are created. The kind of database indexing I'm familiar with is actually indexing material for inclusion in an existing database. I do medical/science indexing of periodical articles (journals, newspapers and magazines) and work from a controlled vocabulary, called a thesaurus. The thesaurus is determined by and created by the client, who gives it to indexers to use to create index entry points (keywords, descriptors) for the material. You can use words used by the authors only if the term exists in the thesaurus. If the authors' terms are not in the thesaurus, then you need some specific knowledge of the field in order to find the set of thesaurus terms closest in meaning to the authors'. Susan, if you want to know more, feel free to email any questions to me. There was a long discussion on the list this past summer on how to find database producers and get your resume into their resource pools. I saved some of the material, and give you the dates to search the archive for the entire thread. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com