From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 13-AUG-1997 12:25:28.61 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9707D" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:05:19 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9707D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:20:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Woodruff Subject: FED-X/UPS - a UK perspective I have been fascinated by all the discussion of FED-X versus UPS, and am becoming quite worried about all those North American cats on balconies dodging flying parcels. I hadn't realised quite how lucky we are in the UK with our postal system. Despite all our grumblings, first class post really does get to anywhere the next day. I can post an index at 5.30 pm in the red letter box at the top of the road, and it's on the editors desk at 9 am next day. There's even a Sunday 3 pm collection which meets Monday a.m.deadlines. Most editors I work for send smallish packets by ordinary post, only using couriers for the biggies. The postman is here before 8 am while Interlink etc. come when they feel like it. Mind you..having worked in Toronto some years back I have to admit I still kind of miss those guys on motorbikes who'd screech up to the apartment block with page proofs in mysterious leather holdalls..seemed to sum up the pace of life across the big blue pond.. -- Karin Woodruff, Indexer e-mail: woodruff@bison.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Proposal (Yet Another!) Willa, I would say you have to sit down and index the 4 pages you have - from reading, thinking, to inputting the entries and editing the little index. Time yourself. Take the time and scale it up to see how long it would take for the entire job. Scale up the number of entries and see what size index you will probably produce, if this is a representative sample. With this information, you can figure a rate based on time, and you can figure a rate based on entries. You could also compare that with a per-page rate. You should be able to find a rate that comes close no matter how it is figured. You cannot decide on a rate "in the dark". You have to work the material. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:54:58 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: UPS/FedEx I've been reading this thread with interest, and I've come to the conclusion that the three most important elements related to shipping are the same as the three most important elements in real estate: location, location, location! UPS and AirBourne provide good service here. Unfortunately, FedEx does not. FedEx is the only carrier that will not do Saturday deliveries here. They also will not do early morning deliveries. And, to make matters worse, I know of at least two instances when they informed my clients that they could not deliver on Saturday because Idaho Springs (where I live) is "out in the boonies somewhere!" My clients actually asked me if that was true! I assured them that I can see I-70 from my office window and that Idaho Springs is just a 40-45 minute drive from Denver. The problem is that FedEx does not service this area from Denver; instead, they service us from Silverthorne, which is much farther away, on the other side of the Eisenhower Tunnel. I wrote a letter of complaint to FedEx because I was concerned that their representatives were giving my clients the impression that I'm some hick who lives "out in the boonies somewhere" and I was appalled that any company that has won the Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Award would make derogatory remarks about a customer. FedEx replied to my letter, saying they were enclosing two coupons worth $15 each ... but the coupons were *not* enclosed. Once again, I had to call them and complain. I finally got the coupons, and I have used them ... but that's the only way I'll use FedEx as long as we live here. Another problem with FedEx here is the one and only pick-up time of Noon; actually, that's the time they *say* they'll pick up but, in reality, it's always much later. UPS will pick up twice a day. Also, UPS and AirBourne always deliver my packages early in the morning. FedEx never shows up 'til mid-afternoon, and that can make tight deadlines even tighter. Altho' I do enjoy living in a little mountain town, I do envy those of you who get better service from FedEx than I do. Lori ********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:42:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: UPS/FedEx I think the moral of the story is ... if it works for you, use it. I too have had one FedEx horror story with a missed delivery of a parcel that was a job on deadline. FedEx isn't perfect. But overall, I've had less problems with FedEx than with UPS (they don't adhered to their own scheduling deadlines; 2-day, 3-day seem to mean nothing to them) or (perish the thought) the Snailmail folks. So FedEx works for me. The flexibility of dropping my parcel in a Kinko's (as opposed to a street box, which scares me) til 5 PM, of having FedEx offices that accept deliveries until 6:30 PM, if I want to drive halfway across town to catch the latest one .... and the reliability, overall, of their service, keeps me coming back. But those who said that it depends on the service to your community are right ... it has to work for *you* in *your* location. And don't expect perfection from any of the carriers. They're all overworked and understaffed. Just look for reliability and good service, overall, and make your choice. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Proofing vs copyediting Hi all, I have a question about different kinds of editing. Before becoming an indexer, I was a technical writer at a large corporation for many years. So I'm familiar with editing--but that's all we called it--just editing (I could change anything that I thought needed changing!). Now I'm working more and more with publishers who seem to have several different terms for editing. When I was first asked to do some copyediting, I asked for a style guide and they provided one. I also let them know that I'll follow CMS. But how do you differentiate between proofing and copyediting? And what is a typical rate for proofing and copyediting? Do you charge less for proofing than copyediting? What do they expect when they ask for substantive editing? When I edit technical documentation, I charge the same rates that I charge for technical writing; but of course, publishers can't pay those rates. I'm told that the ms has already been to the copyeditor. So I'm not sure...should I just make *suggestions* for changes when I proof the ms? I'd appreciate some clarification of these terms. Thanks! Peg ----------------------------------------------------------------- Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:32:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: College catalogue Willa, We indexed a catalogue for a local college for $900 (their offer). We now charge $850 because there is less work to do for the updates than there was for the original. Regards, Susan =============== Susan Holbert/Indexing Services -- 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert Indexing Skills training videos Basic Skills workshops (Boston) -- Sept. 13 and Oct. 4 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:20:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: RE Proofing /Editing Do you know about Copyediting-L? It's list (similar to index-l) that deals with copediting issues. If you want info on how to subscribe, let me know and I'll email to to you. Didn't want to detract from the great responses that I know you'll get from this list, but I did want to let you know that copyediting-l (cel as celmates affectionately call it) is alive and well and would provide you with additional input. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:24:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: College catalogue Susan Holbert wrote: > > Willa, > > We indexed a catalogue for a local college for $900 (their offer). We now > charge $850 because there is less work to do for the updates than there was > for the original. > > Regards, Susan > > =============== > Susan Holbert/Indexing Services -- 617-893-0514 > http://www.abbington.com/holbert > Indexing Skills training videos > Basic Skills workshops (Boston) -- Sept. 13 and Oct. 4 Hi Susan: Greetings and thanks for the info. It gives me an idea what's appropriate. It sounds like this might be a good entry-level project, so keep your fingers crossed. BTW, I meant to send you email and tell you that I finally finished your videos and am available for easier indexing projects, if you get any that can be passed on. (This is in response to your comment on the tape that people watching on video can let you know of our availbility). BTW, again, how easy is it to learn your software? I have student demoes of Cindex & Macrex and feel as though there is a lot to learn with them. The demoes also only hold a total of 75 records each, and if I really get some indexing work this summer, I'll want something that holds more than that. Is the cost still $129 and how easy is it to learn? Thanks. Hope you are having a good summer. willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Proofing vs copyediting Peg Mauer writes: I have a question about different kinds of editing. Before becoming an indexer, I was a technical writer at a large corporation for many years. So I'm familiar with editing--but that's all we called it--just editing (I could change anything that I thought needed changing!). Now I'm working more and more with publishers who seem to have several different terms for editing. When I was first asked to do some copyediting, I asked for a style guide and they provided one. I also let them know that I'll follow CMS. But how do you differentiate between proofing and copyediting? And what is a typical rate for proofing and copyediting? Do you charge less for proofing than copyediting? What do they expect when they ask for substantive editing? When I edit technical documentation, I charge the same rates that I charge for technical writing; but of course, publishers can't pay those rates. I'm told that the ms has already been to the copyeditor. So I'm not sure...should I just make *suggestions* for changes when I proof the ms? I'd appreciate some clarification of these terms. Thanks! Hi Peg, I think every publisher has their own definition of proofreading and copy editing. If it helps, though, here's how it works at Macmillan... Copyediting is done on-screen (before the ms reaches pages), and is where the true editing take place. Proofreaders read the ms on pages and have much more limited authority when it comes to changing the text. A proofreader can correct typos, misspellings, punctuation, capitalization, incorrect figure references, incorrect chapter references, and can check text against the style guide provided by the editor. Proofreaders are not permitted to rewrite sentences or headings, reorganize the material, or change word usage, although they're allowed to make suggestions to the production editor. (We call them "editor queries" here.) Our convention is for proofreaders to mark corrections in red ink and to write their suggestions (queries) in pencil... a production editor can them skim over the pages and approve/stet the suggestions. Hope this helps! Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:48:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Proofreading prices At 12:32 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Helen Schinske wrote: >Mark My Words suggests that reliable proofreading speeds are usually from >about 2000-4000 words per minute, hardly anyone being able to do more than >4000 without decreasing accuracy. Helen, I hesitate to mention this, but I am a real speed-reader, and even =I= would have trouble reading 4000 words per minute, let alone proofreading them! Could you possibly mean 4000 words per HOUR? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:16:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: new indexer seeking advice Bonny wrote: << Be sure to network with the indexers in your local or regional ASI chapter. These wonderful people have many contacts and are frequently looking for someone to recommend for a job that they cannot work into their schedule or that falls outside of their area of specialization. Let them know that you are available and what kind of indexing jobs you are looking for. The Southern California chapter has a networking directory just for that purpose. If your chapter doesn't have such a directory, volunteer to take on the project. It will give you something to do while you wait for the jobs to come in! >> I agree that you should get in touch with your ASI chapter, get to know as many indexers as possible, and go to meetings! You can learn so much this way. But please remember that indexers will not (should not) refer jobs to you unless they know the quality of your work. Don't expect to get referrals just because you met an experienced indexer and expressed interest. And when you are networking, let other indexers know what kind of experience and training you have. I know this is hard--it's the old "can't get a job without experience, can't get experience without a job" circle. The answer is to get as much training, formal and informal, as you can before you start marketing. Good luck! Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:02:50 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Monica Smersh Subject: Re: new indexer seeking advice In-Reply-To: <199707212245.PAA16529@siskiyou.brigadoon.com> Carolyn, thanks for responding to my request for info. It's nice to know that I am in good company and that eventually the jobs will come. I hope to meet you at the asi meeting in October. Monica ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:13:24 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Monica Smersh Subject: thanks for advice Thanks to all of you thoughtful indexers who have offered advice. It's great to "talk" to you and to hear words of encouragement. I continue to appreciate any further thoughts regarding getting my business established. Monica Smersh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:12:08 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: FED-Ex/UPS - a UK perspective Karin Woodruff has presented a rather rosy picture of the UK postal servi= ce - in my experience first class post doesn't always get to its destination the next day and can sometimes take several days - particularly if I post something in the afternoon for delivery to London or the South-East from Manchester which is where I live - a distance of about 180 miles. Locatio= n again. I bet people in further flung parts of the UK have similar problem= s. I usually send urgent stuff by registered post, which is guaranteed next day delivery, and only costs an extra =A33 or =A34. One very urgent inde= x I sent this way a couple of years ago didn't arrive on the promised day - a= nd all I got back by way of compensation was the postage - apparently I shou= ld have taken out their consequential loss insurance .... I also send stuff to an organization in Switzerland (which publishes book= s in English). Ordinary airmail takes 3 or 4 days so the urgent indexes hav= e to go by International Datapost (still part of the post office I think) o= r DHL, a courier company. They can do next day delivery - at a cost. If I tell them I've included a disk in the package they make me fill out a customs declaration form, which is a bit of a pain. However - some of the stories from the people in the US have made me appreciate that our postal and courier services here are on the whole pretty good - long may they stay that way. The small size of the UK must make a big difference. Isn't it time we had a contribution from other countries too? eg Australi= a. Liza Weinkove ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:50:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: Proofreading prices In a message dated 97-07-22 03:06:40 EDT, you write: >>Mark My Words suggests that reliable proofreading speeds are usually from >>about 2000-4000 words per minute, hardly anyone being able to do more than >>4000 without decreasing accuracy. > >You're kidding about that "per minute" bit, right? I may not be the >fastest reader, but ... > >Andy Yes, Andy, you're right! I meant per hour. See, everyone, this illustrates the importance of having someone other than the author of a document proofread it! Red-facedly yours, Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: FedEx software In-Reply-To: <199707220412.XAA14009@mixcom.mixcom.com> I have their software for the Mac, and I agree it works great. One reminder about downloading the software from the Web: make a backup. I downloaded mine, the program later got corrupted (no doubt from watching too much TV), and I had no software on a disk. FedEx was very good about sending me the software disk, though. I've only needed the tracking feature once so far, but it worked like a charm--I was able to tell a dept. secretary that the package was sitting in the university's mailroom. One of my favorite features is the address book, where you can store clients' addresses and FedEx acct. numbers. Way cool. Oh, one other thing: you do have to know or guess the weight of the package. You can't print the shipping label with the "weight" box blank. As opposed to handwriting the shipping label, where all you need is an acct. # or credit card #, and FedEx will weigh the package and determine shipping cost. Although I use shippers less and less, now that I'm sending most indexes via e-mail, I always use FedEx. UPS? I sigh every time the driver leaves a pkg on my back porch without ringing the bell to see whether I'm home. Hey, at least he doesn't throw it on the roof, or send it to my aunt in Michigan, or bury it in my compost pile, or . . . ;-) I've had very little experience with Airborne, although I've heard stories. The other day, they did deliver--right on time and with a smile--a new PowerBook battery. BTW, for a brilliantly funny portrayal of UPS drivers, take a look at the opening of _Ace Ventura: Pet Detective_. (The rest of the movie is funny, too.) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Copy of: Re: FED-Ex/UPS - a UK perspective Liza Weinkove wrote: I usually send urgent stuff by registered post, which is guaranteed next day delivery, and only costs an extra =3DA33 or =3DA34. = Liza, I think you keyed in a pound sign, which comes out as =3DA3. I'm su= re what you meant to write was 3 or 4 pounds. I keep doing this too and peop= le get very confused. Avoid the pound sign like the plague! I send stuff by registered post too, *and* add the cost of postage to my invoice. I've never had this challenged by the client. Christine *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:45:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Cnudde Subject: no messages from Index -L lately Hello--I've been a lurker on the INDEX-L list for several months, but now have received no mail since June 19. Has anyone else had this problem or have I been bumped? Thanks for any help. Sue Cnudde ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:01:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: RE; CEL/APOLOGY Looks like I posted my cel note to the list by mistake. Guess I have to be more careful about what I post to whom. Sorry about that. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:25:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caren Cohen Subject: Health Care Provider Directory I'm a programmer working for a printing company and I have a project to prepare a file to print a directory of physicians. The first part of the directory is easy as it's a list of each physician and their address. The second part is a list by county which only lists the physicians name and a page reference to the first section of the directory. Is there some indexing software that will help us automate this project? Thanks in advance for any help or direction you can provide. --Caren ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:41:59 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: Re: Health Care Provider Directory Hello Caren; Your project seems like an exciting challenge for anyone to undertake. > I have a project to > prepare a file to print a directory of physicians. The first part of the > directory is easy as it's a list of each physician and their address. > > The second part is a list by county which only lists the physicians name > and a page reference to the first section of the directory. Is there some > indexing software that will help us automate this project? Having looked at several packages, I see no software to do what you need here. This appears to be an "Indexing" task, from start to finish. I have spent many years working with physicians, and with the uniqueness of their names, as well as needing to sort by counties, I believe the indexing would be quicker than even writing some code to attempt the chore. Even then, some serious proofing would need to be done on the results. > > Thanks in advance for any help or direction you can provide. Good luck, please let me know if you figure a way to automate this project. By the way, I am just finishing up an indexing project if you might be in need of someone for your directory. Good luck, Jim Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:58:32 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: rates and lost client Hi all Out from lurk mode for a long rant. I recently got a referral from a regular client. I had the referral fax me some pages, and gave him a quote of $3/page as it's very light. He fussed about it and said he'd get back to me. When he called back he said my regular client told him I was charging him less and that maybe I'd give the referral a break. Now to backtrack a bit. My regular client (call him A) got me when I was a beginner and I charged him $2.50/page. After the last job I did for him I said I was raising my rates to bring him up to what is the minimum I charge for other jobs. I said the next job for him would be $2.75/page, and after that, $3. This is a client who is nice to work for but gives very tight deadlines and then after the index is delivered, maybe 2 weeks later, has his editor call (usually after 5 p.m.) and complain about something, either style or structure, and require a change to be made and sent back that evening. Often this takes 2 hours or more and I don't charge for it because I believe they have paid for a good job already and I want them satisfied at the originally stated rate (does that make sense?). (I would charge for changes that they made that had nothing to do with the original job.) He never answered my message about raising my rates, so I figured either he was disgusted and I'd never hear from him again, or he was OK and just didn't have a job for me yet. So then I get this referral (call him B). We negotiate back and forth, and we finally agree on the rate of $3/page. At one point I said, when you set a rate for someone and they don't like it, do you then just agree to do it for less? My next line would have been, and I'll use it someday: if you go to a store and you like a sweater but it's too expensive, do you go to the owner and say, can I have this $300 sweater for $250, and do they say, "Sure, no problem," or do they say, maybe you can find something similar at KMart"? Meanwhile, I write back to A and ask about never having heard from him, and that I wondered why he would tell someone I charged him (A) less (never mentionining to B that I had raised my rates), and that $3/page was standard minimum for an experienced indexer (now believing myself to be "experienced" but I didn't say that to him, and maybe it isn't even really true). So this morning I get a message from him saying that he was satisfied with my work but grouchy about the rates, and then modified that by saying, well not always satisfied and not always grouchy, which made me really wonder what was going on. I've done about 4 indexes for him and he never said he was less than safisfied. He went on to finish that he had several other contractors who were experienced indexers and were only charging $2.50 (and he said maybe they aren't subscribed to Index-L), and that he would stick with them. But keep in touch and hopes I'm well. So I feel good about sticking to my guns, but I feel bad about losing a client over .50 a page whose books I enjoyed doing, and whom I enjoyed working with. I don't feel like back pedalling at this point and saying OH, all right, I don't want to lose you so just forget everything I said and let me come back. Any thoughts? Thanks for listening. OH, and after I do B's index, I'll get to work on the web page for the medsci sig. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:00 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Hebrew I made this a separate post as it's a whole different topic. Is anyone out there able to translate Hebrew from transliterations? I'm doing a book on Jewish laws and half of it is in transliterated Hebrew. I can get most of it from the context (and some from memory) but I have about 20 that I can't figure out. If you can help, contact me off list please. (I have to send this off next Monday so there's still a little time.) Most of them aren't indexable but some are and it's pretty darn hard to know which when you don't even know what the word is! Thanks, Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:48 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: and one more ... (UPS) I live on an island and most of the carriers know their people, so I often get even improperly addressed items on time. But when the regular guy went on vacation, the substitute walked all the way around my house (even though it's fairly obvious where my house door is) and left my package inside the back door of the barn where I didn't see it until I went down to feed around 7 p.m. so I lost a whole afternoon worth of work time. Now I have a sign on the barn doors where to leave packages. My regular guy always puts everything inside my door (my house door). Now, I sometimes use the Fedex drop box at the airport. It is marked last pickup at 4 p.m. Once I dropped something in at 4.45 and *then* saw the time, and panicked and called my person and said I was horrified but the index would be a day late. She was upset but understood. But guess what, she called me at 10 the next morning and said it had arrived anyway! And once I called Airborne to pick up at the house. There is just an automated voice thing when you call. The carrier came for the pickup in less than an hour. But she shouted from downstairs, because there were 4 skunks and she wouldn't get out of the truck. What a baby! hehehe So I really do live in the boonies somewhere (no I-195 in sight!) but I seem to have pretty good service. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:31:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suzanne Stevenson Subject: Re: RE Proofing /Editing Please let me know how I can subscribe to the copyediting list! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:36:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: rates and lost client In-Reply-To: <199707231514.IAA26300@mx4.u.washington.edu> It took me several years before I had the nerve to raise the rates on established clients; but I've never lost a client over raising rates. I do now tell NEW clients that the quoted rate is guaranteed for two years and then subject to renegotiation. This is my hourly rate quote, btw (the only one I will quote over the phone). Per page or per entry rates are ALWAYS specific to the job and reflect my current hourly rate. I have a page rate RANGE that I quote (and for which the minimum is increased every so often) but not set page rates for specific clients unless their work is very predictable (like journal issues). Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Rachel Rice wrote: > So I feel good about sticking to my guns, but I feel bad about losing a > client over .50 a page whose books I enjoyed doing, and whom I enjoyed > working with. I don't feel like back pedalling at this point and saying OH, > all right, I don't want to lose you so just forget everything I said and > let me come back. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:42:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "(Pamela Venneman)" Subject: Re: and one more ... (UPS) Care to hear about another strange USPS delivery. One day about 6 years ago when I went to the mailbox, I found a yellow form in with the mail (I had been home all day, like most days). Scribbled on the back of this blank form were the words "on the grid". All afternoon I tried to figure this out. Finally that evening my husband went outside, muttering "I wonder", to the barbeque grill, lifted the cover and found our package. Pam Venneman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: rates and lost client Rachel, thank you for relating your experience in raising rates on your client. We all need to study your experience, as it has some good lessons to us all. IMHO, when raising rates by 50 cents per hour, it's a good idea to consider the volume of business you may lose, and the wisdom of what you're about to do. Maybe the volume of business, the joy of indexing those books, and/or the ease of working with that client justify keeping your rates stable for that one client. It's a business decision. There are no hard and fast rules. I've lost a good client this way, and regretted it later. I don't believe that one's rates have to be the same across the board. We are all entrepreneurs, and can do it however we wish in our own business. We do not have to have a posted rate card on our "front door." The moral of the story is that many considerations go into setting rates, including quite a few subjective ones. If one wants to keep (or accept) a given client at a slightly lower rate, that is your prerogative as a freelancer. There can be many reasons (valid ones) for doing so. The alternative is an experience like Rachel's. Before anybody condemns this practice, consider this .... retail business have items that they sell as "loss leaders". Nobody faults them for that practice. It brings in business, widens ones circle of customers, etc. Why shouldn't we, as freelancers, if we want to? Raising rates routinely and across the board is one way of running a business, but there are other ways too. What works for one person may not work for another person (or business). Sign me ... been there, and burned like Rachel. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: wsc-jec@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: rates and lost client Rachel, I think you did right to stick to your rate. It is always hard to raise rates, I've noticed. Despite inevitable inflation and differences in difficulty of individual projects, clients seem to have this idea that they only need to negotiate a rate once, and that it will stay that way for years after. They seem at times to take it as a personal affront, but perhaps it's because they get hassled by their bosses or authors if the indexer wants more money. I must admit that I do occasionally work for $2.50/page a small university press, but my basic minimum is currently $3.00 and I'm trying to start some newer clients at $3.50. I have also taken to quoting a range of $3-4/page so that the prospective client will get the idea that there may be variation in what they'll pay. But you will have to compete with those who will do it for less. My editors tell me that for KMart prices they often get KMart quality, too, and then they come back to me. Your perseverence will pay off, although since I'm not booked all the time, I know how hard it is to stick to you guns and risk losing a client. You are very brave. Joanne AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen |Do or do not; there is no try. 9597 Jones Rd. #113 Yoda| Houston, TX 77065 (281) 469-4461 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:39:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Health Care Provider Directory Caren Though I don't do back of the book indexing, your project can easily be handled by a database management program. I use a product called Alpha4 to manage a mailing list and have generated reports like you need without any problem. The main thing is the construction of the database. Alpha4 is very powerful but required very little programming knowledge. http://www.alphasoft.com Roberta Horowitz At 10:25 AM 7/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'm a programmer working for a printing company and I have a project to >prepare a file to print a directory of physicians. The first part of the >directory is easy as it's a list of each physician and their address. > >The second part is a list by county which only lists the physicians name >and a page reference to the first section of the directory. Is there some >indexing software that will help us automate this project? > >Thanks in advance for any help or direction you can provide. > >--Caren > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:01:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Herr Hallinger Organization: Herr's Indexing Service Subject: FedEx/UPS I thought I might as well add my .02 on this discussion. It does seem that the delivery services really vary between regions. I have had great service from FedEx. My driver gets to my house (without complaining) even in the worst weather. Sometimes he even comes over the back way, which is really an unmaintained road. The UPS driver does pretty good, although he is reluctant to come up here during snow storms. Airborne is the worst. They refuse to come up my road at all, and instead leave my packages hanging from my mailbox, which is over a mile from my house. I just picked up one there today, which is what prompted to me write this. I have called over and over again to Airborne to complain, but they seem to feel that a mile away is close enough! Linda ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:19:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Corrington Subject: Re: Scheduling indexing work Do Mi - What a nice situation to be in - having to worry about scheduling "too many" projects!! I realize how busy you are, but I need to know what is going on with the SIG. I haven't head anything yet. If you can send me a list of names I will start to contact others to get things started. If there is movement, please let me know who is doing what so I can stay abreast of how the SIG is developing and how I can help. Please answer directly off-index L. Thanks, Paul Corrington voice: (602) 827-8904 Corrington Indexing Service fax: (602) 827-1182 2647 East Kenwood e-mail: Paul Corri@aol.com Mesa, Arizona 85213 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Corrington Subject: Re: RE Proofing /Editing Willma - Please send me the information regarding copyediting list services. Did you recieve my e-mail on our SIG? I'm interested in your comments. Thanks, Paul Corrington Corrington Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Shawvan Subject: Re: rates and lost client Rachel: I don't have much more experience with raising rates than you have, but my slant would be to negotiate one job at a time, as much as possible, rather than making blanket pronouncements to a client. One thing I've learned in business is to stay as flexible as possible and put as little on the table as I can until I see where a discussion is leading. Sign me...someone who likes to run around keeping all possible doors open. Julie Shawvan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:55:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Corrington Subject: Re: Health Care Provider Directory Caren - There are lot's of software available. However, from a business perspective, why not just contract this projects rather than investing in the cost of software, training, etc? I index medical, and medical business type of books, journals, and documents. If I can be of assistance to you, let me know. Paul Corrington voice: (602) 827-8904 Corrington Indexing Service fax: (602) 827-1182 2647 East Kenwood e-mail: Paul Corri@aol.com Mesa, Arizona 85213 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:06:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: RE Proofing /Editing Paul Corrington wrote: > > Willma - > > Please send me the information regarding copyediting list services. > > Did you recieve my e-mail on our SIG? I'm interested in your comments. > > Thanks, > > Paul Corrington > Corrington Indexing Service Hi Paul: I'll get you the copyediting info tomorrow. No, yes, I did get your email. I've been trying to send an email to everyone--tried twice--and got error messages in return. So no one has gotten anything yet. But, hopefully, I'll be around for the next few days, and will try again. If it bounces a third time, I'll probably have to post a note on index-l letting everyoneknow that I'm trying but having technical difficulties. slightly frustrating, as you can imagine. If you haven't received something from my by end of July, bug me again. I may have to have someone else send out the email to everyone, if it screws up a third time! Thanks for your interest....we'll get there sometime soon, hopefully. Willa MacAllen macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:34:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: reminder re personal messages Please, ... please ... there is enough volume of mail on Index-L without reading people's personal messages to other people. If you are asking one person a question, please do not use the list for this purpose. Please send a private email. Similarly if you are answering such a question. The listserve should be used for discussion/questions of interest to the indexing community, not personal messages. Thanks, in the spirit of keeping unnecessary email traffic at bay, Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:47:49 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: Reminder re personal messages Janet, Thanks. I was just composing a similar plea. I would like to add one more consideration. Please be careful when posting answers to people "just checking in", as they may not be subscribers and may not see your reply. Also, from the list FAQ, periodically sent out to list members: > > ---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted > messages. Several of the responses to the programmer's request have been solicitations to do the work. More power to you for going out and getting work, just please send it to the potential employer. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:15:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Palmer Subject: Re: Hebrew / Log files I tried to find out Rachel's e-mail address by getting the latest log file from the listserv. Unfortunately my computer will not display the whole log file, which it says is too long. On Rachel's original message, my computer tells me it is from index-l, but doesn't give the original sender's address. Shall I strangle Bill Gates or what! It would help us poor people with dysfunctional software if people posting to the list could include their e-mail address in the body of their message (e.g. in a .sig). Rachel, I know someone who speaks and writes Hebrew. Would you like to contact me off-list? Barbara Palmer barbarap@phm.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:08:12 +0200 Reply-To: maddox@iafrica.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah & Peter Maddox Subject: Re: rates and lost client Hi Rachel, I would treat each job, and each client, individually. I have a table of rates, based on indexing density. (I charge per page.) But I try to stay open to negotiation, within limits. Should you contact A again, and try to win him back? I think I might offer a compromise. While making it clear that my rates need to increase, I would also let him know that he is a valued client, and that each job is negotiable. How does all that sound? I'm not speaking from vast experience here, but that's my philosophy at the moment. Kind Regards, Sarah Maddox Freelance Writer and Indexer Rachel Rice wrote: > > Hi all > > Out from lurk mode for a long rant. I recently got a referral from a > regular client. I had the referral fax me some pages, and gave him a quote > of $3/page as it's very light. He fussed about it and said he'd get back to > me. When he called back he said my regular client told him I was charging > him less and that maybe I'd give the referral a break. > > Now to backtrack a bit. My regular client (call him A) got me when I was a > beginner and I charged him $2.50/page. After the last job I did for him I > said I was raising my rates to bring him up to what is the minimum I charge > for other jobs. I said the next job for him would be $2.75/page, and after > that, $3. This is a client who is nice to work for but gives very tight > deadlines and then after the index is delivered, maybe 2 weeks later, has > his editor call (usually after 5 p.m.) and complain about something, either > style or structure, and require a change to be made and sent back that > evening. Often this takes 2 hours or more and I don't charge for it because > I believe they have paid for a good job already and I want them satisfied > at the originally stated rate (does that make sense?). (I would charge for > changes that they made that had nothing to do with the original job.) > > He never answered my message about raising my rates, so I figured either he > was disgusted and I'd never hear from him again, or he was OK and just > didn't have a job for me yet. > > So then I get this referral (call him B). We negotiate back and forth, and > we finally agree on the rate of $3/page. At one point I said, when you set > a rate for someone and they don't like it, do you then just agree to do it > for less? My next line would have been, and I'll use it someday: if you go > to a store and you like a sweater but it's too expensive, do you go to the > owner and say, can I have this $300 sweater for $250, and do they say, > "Sure, no problem," or do they say, maybe you can find something similar at > KMart"? > > Meanwhile, I write back to A and ask about never having heard from him, and > that I wondered why he would tell someone I charged him (A) less (never > mentionining to B that I had raised my rates), and that $3/page was > standard minimum for an experienced indexer (now believing myself to be > "experienced" but I didn't say that to him, and maybe it isn't even really > true). > > So this morning I get a message from him saying that he was satisfied with > my work but grouchy about the rates, and then modified that by saying, well > not always satisfied and not always grouchy, which made me really wonder > what was going on. I've done about 4 indexes for him and he never said he > was less than safisfied. He went on to finish that he had several other > contractors who were experienced indexers and were only charging $2.50 (and > he said maybe they aren't subscribed to Index-L), and that he would stick > with them. But keep in touch and hopes I'm well. > > So I feel good about sticking to my guns, but I feel bad about losing a > client over .50 a page whose books I enjoyed doing, and whom I enjoyed > working with. I don't feel like back pedalling at this point and saying OH, > all right, I don't want to lose you so just forget everything I said and > let me come back. > > Any thoughts? Thanks for listening. > > OH, and after I do B's index, I'll get to work on the web page for the > medsci sig. > > Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:14:46 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: FED-Ex/UPS - a UK perspective In-Reply-To: <869602188.092092.0@listserv.cuny.edu> I suppose we all have our own slightly different experiences of delivery systems. On the whole I agree with Karen - ordinary first class mail usually does arrive next day, when mailed from just up the road by three o'clock, or from our village post office by about four thirty in the afternoon. However, anything which MUST be delivered next day, or is particularly valuable I send by Special Delivery, at a considerable extra cost. This absolutely guarantees delivery next day, and is separately handled by the Post Office at every stage. If they do not deliver on time, they will pay compensation, but I have never had to make a claim. I use this service particularly when I have to send Society of Indexers cheques through the post for a second signature. By definition, such cheques are for fairly substantial amounts and, by the time I have got around to dealing with them, in a hurry. On the other hand, as I live in a rural area - fully half a mile outside the legal boundary of Greater London - the postal deliveries here arrive much later than they do in towns. I am lucky if I receive my post before eleven in the morning, and we have only one delivery. The reason is simple, the postman has to cover a long list of villages, all about six miles from the town centre, and a mile or two apart from each other. Also, he drives up to each house or bungalow separately to deliver the mail through the letterbox in the front door - none of your gatepost letter boxes here - yet! I have an arrangement with all the chaps who cover this round that, if there is a parcel of proofs, or whatever, and I am out, they leave it in the garage, under one of the innumerable empty (must be useful some time) cardboard boxes. This saves them leaving a card saying that I must drive into the town to collect the wretched thing. Like Christine, I also avoid the pound sign on my keyboard like the plague. But only when sending email - after all, it does refer to our local lolly ( if you don't use that particular slang word, you can guess what it means). Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:40:14 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Considering a move to New Hampshire Greetings, Within reason, answers to this question would be appreciated by several members, I'll bet. Perhaps the tiniest reply from each respondent straight to the list, and then longer replies to Willa (off-line)? I, for one, would appreciate your contributions to our "knowledge base." Willa MacAllen wrote: > > Hi Everyone: > > I've been researching the possibility of moving to New Hampshire from > Massachusetts and wondered if anyone who is on this list & who lives in > New Hampshire could write me off line with some info? > > I'm trying to document that it actually is less expensive living in NH > than in "Taxachusetts". Also, it appears as though NH is more friendly > to business in general than Massachusetts. It also looks as though the > economy in southern NH is doing really well, unlike a few years ago. > > Would anyone who lives in NH (and has a homeased business) mind taking a > few minutes to write me off list? > > Thanks, in advance. > > Hope everyone has a pleasant and productive weekend... > > Willa MacAllen > MacAllen's Information Services > Librarian/Technical Writer > Boston > macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:45:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Configuring index-l mail headers In-Reply-To: <33D77FDC@pcmgw.phm.gov.au> >> On Thu, 24 Jul 97 09:15:00 PDT, >> Barbara Palmer said: B> On Rachel's original message, my computer tells me it is from index-l, but B> doesn't give the original sender's address. If you send a message to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu with the single line "query index-l" in the message body, you'll get a list of your current options, including how your headers are displayed. One of the "set" options below might give you some better headers. I have mine set to IETF, which puts your return address where it should be. SET listname options Alter your subscription options: Options for mail headers of incoming postings (choose one): FULLhdr or FULLBsmtp -> "Full" mail headers IETFhdr -> Internet-style headers SHORThdr or SHORTBsmtp -> Short (default) headers DUALhdr -> Dual headers, useful with PC or Mac mail programs B> Shall I strangle Bill Gates or what! Get in line. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 I am not the reincarnation of Sammy Davis Jr. --written on blackboard by Bart Simpson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Colleen McColgan Subject: Re: Malcolm X I am out of lurk mode (finally) to ask the group thoughts on alphabetizing Malcolm X. Either way I try it looks incorrect. Any feedback would be appreciated! TIA, Colleen McColgan Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:18:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Colleen McColgan Subject: Re: Malcolm X again Hi all- Another problem with the entry Malcolm X- I need to site the book titled "The Autobiography of Malcolm X"-by Malcolm X and Alex Hailey. So the entry would be "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" (Malcolm X and Hailey)?? For some reason I am really stumped on this one! Thanks again, Colleen McColgan Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:35:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Corrington Subject: Re: RE Proofing /Editing Willa - Thanks for following through. I just realized that in my last e-mail I addressed you by a wrong name. I apologize. Paul Corrington Corrington Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:20:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Re: Malcolm X - Reply Colleen, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. What I can tell you is that here at Grolier in all of our encyclopedias we alphabetize him under "M" as "Malcolm X." Not under "X." Exactly where his name falls depends on whether or not there are other Malcolms in the index, and whether you're using word-by-word or letter-by-letter sorting. Remember, the "X" here is the letter "X," not "10." Also, the book citation (Malcolm X and Hailey) looks OK to me. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:25:00 -0500 Reply-To: sfiferca@ngs.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Fifer Canby Organization: National Geographic Subject: job announcement Form: Memo Text: (19 lines follow) JOB ANNOUCEMENT: INDEXER Exciting opportunity for a full-time indexer for the National Geographic Society in Washington, D.C., to develop and prepare indexes of magazines, books, television, and interactive materials, while maintaining an accurate electronic index on the Society s website. The position requires an individual who has knowledge of the methods, practices and procedures associated with indexing and project coordination. The successful candidate will have a Masters in Library Science, with index training or course work, a broad liberal arts education, strong writing skills, and be detail oriented. Cindex, Endeavor, HTML programming experience a plus. The Society has excellent benefits, but cannot pay re-location costs. Salary begins at $24-28,000 a year. Job available Sept. 2. Please send resume, Cover letter and salary history to: Human Resources, National Geographic Society, 1145 17th Street NW, Washington, DC 20036 or fax to 202-429-5735. Use Proportional Font: true Attachment Count: 0 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:12:16 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Malcolm X again Colleen McColgan wrote: > Another problem with the entry Malcolm X- Colleen, The Library of Congress catalog as well as several major university systems libraries I checked all use X, Malcolm As for the Autobiography, the catalogs cite X, Malcolm as the author, although after the title in the complete citation they read: with the assistance of Alex Haley. BTW, all use the spelling "Haley." In this case I would list Malcolm X only after the title, or, not cite the author at all on the grounds that it is self-evident. Personally, I would look under Malcolm X if I were using the index. I would recommend a see ref if you use X, Malcolm as the main entry. Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Malcolm X again Bonnie, X, Malcolm !!!!!!! I can't believe it! Impossible! Ridiculous!!! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:51:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Malcolm X again At 01:12 PM 7/24/97 -0700, Bonny Mclaughlin wrote: >Colleen, > >The Library of Congress catalog as well as several major university >systems libraries I checked all use > > X, Malcolm I just did an index where I needed to make an entry for Malcolm X. And it was under Malcolm X. Frankly, and I am a librarian trained as a cataloguer, I think this is an excellent example of LC's having its head in the sand with no concept of how a user might look up a term. I am all for LCSH (Library of Congress Subject Headings) in many cases but not in this one. One could even go so far as to say that this violates the AACR2 concept of using the common form of the name as the entry--I for one would never have ever looked up Malcolm X under X, Malcolm and I would be irritated beyond words if I went to Malcolm X in an index and was told that I should then turn to X, Malcolm!!!! (Janet and I are on the same wave length here!) >Personally, I would look under Malcolm X if I were using the index. I >would recommend a see ref if you use X, Malcolm as the main entry. See above. I personally would not use X, Malcolm as the main entry in an index. You might want to do an X, Malcolm cross reference to Malcolm X, in spite of LC practice. Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary, for example, has NOTHING under X, Malcolm. On the other hand, just to be nitpicky, you COULD make a See reference from Little, Malcolm (his original name) to Malcolm X; ditto el-Shabazz, Malik (his Muslim name and alphabetized under S). There is also the element of el-Hajj in there but that signifies that he made a pilgrimage to Mecca and that element is not considered part of the formal name. Just my $.02. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:51:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: RE; Good news & mxied news Wanted to let everyone know 2 things: 1) The good news is I just got my first index. It doesn't pay much, but it's a start, and at least at this point the project seems fairly straight forward...Of course, I guess I won't know that for sure until I get into the project tomorrow, right? 2) Now the mixed news: I heard via the grapevine that one of my attempts to communicate with people in the new sports/fitness sig got messed up and appeared on Index-l. If it did, it was a technical error and not what I intended. The mixed news is that I'm trying to send email to all those who expressed interest in the sports/fitness sig and keep getting error messages in return. Pilar indicated that she hasn't seen anything from me, so I have to assume that no one else on the sports/fitness sig list has either. I am trying to get in touch with everyone, and hopefully, one of these times, it'll work. So much for technology making life easier for us all.... Hope everyone has a good weekend. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net P.S.: Will anyone on the list be at Falconcrest Folk Festival in Conn over the weekend? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:49:25 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: RE; Good news & mxied news Willa, congrats on your first indexing job! Hurray! David ----- Willa MacAllen wrote: > > Wanted to let everyone know 2 things: > > 1) The good news is I just got my first index. It doesn't pay much, but > it's a start, and at least at this point the project seems fairly > straight forward...Of course, I guess I won't know that for sure until I > get into the project tomorrow, right? > > 2) Now the mixed news: I heard via the grapevine that one of my attempts > to communicate with people in the new sports/fitness sig got messed up > and appeared on Index-l. If it did, it was a technical error and not > what I intended. The mixed news is that I'm trying to send email to all > those who expressed interest in the sports/fitness sig and keep getting > error messages in return. Pilar indicated that she hasn't seen anything > from me, so I have to assume that no one else on the sports/fitness > sig list has either. I am trying to get in touch with everyone, and > hopefully, one of these times, it'll work. So much for technology making > life easier for us all.... > > Hope everyone has a good weekend. > > Willa MacAllen > MacAllen's Information Services > Librarian/Technical Writer > Boston > macallen@tiac.net > > P.S.: Will anyone on the list be at Falconcrest Folk Festival in Conn > over the weekend? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:34:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Malcolm X again Why not just X, Malcolm and Malcolm X Some instances call for double postings. I think that this is one. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:07:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Malcolm X again Janet Perlman exclaims: X, Malcolm !!!!!!! I can't believe it! Impossible! Ridiculous!!! Sorry to disagree with Janet (AND Cynthia Bertelsen), but I don't see why= =2E He chose X as his surname, and that's what it is. Thus, X, Malcolm. It's not a nickname - Charles Martel goes under Charles because Martel is a nickname (meaning the Hammer); it's not a suffix - the Venerable Bede goe= s under Bede, the Venerable, St, not under V, because Venerable is not part= of his name. This is different; it's his *name*. Cross-references? Of course. What I do find ridiculous is that Malcolm X is in the Chambers Biographic= al Dictionary under M, immediately following Malcolm IV, king of Scotland, a= s if X stood for tenth. Christine *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:54:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Malcolm X again At 02:07 AM 7/25/97 -0400, Christine Shuttleworth wrote: >Janet Perlman exclaims: > >X, Malcolm !!!!!!! I can't believe it! Impossible! Ridiculous!!! > >Sorry to disagree with Janet (AND Cynthia Bertelsen), but I don't see why= >=2E >He chose X as his surname, and that's what it is. Thus, X, Malcolm. It's >not a nickname - You're right, it is not a nickname. However, I am simply stating that I think LC is wrong on this for the following reason: Taking on the "X" was the way that the Nation of Islam members renamed themselves in memory of the slaves whose identities had been taken away from them by the slavers. Slaves were always known by their first names and most of the time did not even have an official last name, except for that of the slave owner. Hence, "Malcolm X" signified that Malcolm didn't really consider himself as having a last name and thus went by his first name as his complete name, slave-style. As I stated in my original message, I might make a cross reference FROM X, Malcolm TO Malcolm X, because I am thinking of the user who will act like most people and look under Malcolm X. I have checked several of my appropriate dictionaries, Online Britannica, etc. Common usage has it as Malcolm X, and nowhere is the X, Malcolm used. The Library of Congress in general does a great job, but not in this case. In fact, in many cases where multicultural issues are concerned, LC subject headings are often inappropriate. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:02:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Malcolm X again At 06:51 PM 7/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 01:12 PM 7/24/97 -0700, Bonny Mclaughlin wrote: > >>Colleen, >> >>The Library of Congress catalog as well as several major university >>systems libraries I checked all use >> >> X, Malcolm > >I just did an index where I needed to make an entry for Malcolm X. And it >was under Malcolm X. Frankly, and I am a librarian trained as a cataloguer, >I think this is an excellent example of LC's having its head in the sand >with no concept of how a user might look up a term. I am all for LCSH >(Library of Congress Subject Headings) in many cases but not in this one. >One could even go so far as to say that this violates the AACR2 concept of >using the common form of the name as the entry--I for one would never have >ever looked up Malcolm X under X, Malcolm and I would be irritated beyond >words if I went to Malcolm X in an index and was told that I should then >turn to X, Malcolm!!!! (Janet and I are on the same wave length here!) > >>Personally, I would look under Malcolm X if I were using the index. I >>would recommend a see ref if you use X, Malcolm as the main entry. > >See above. I personally would not use X, Malcolm as the main entry in an >index. You might want to do an X, Malcolm cross reference to Malcolm X, in >spite of LC practice. Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary, for >example, has NOTHING under X, Malcolm. > >On the other hand, just to be nitpicky, you COULD make a See reference from >Little, Malcolm (his original name) to Malcolm X; ditto el-Shabazz, Malik >(his Muslim name and alphabetized under S). There is also the element of >el-Hajj in there but that signifies that he made a pilgrimage to Mecca and >that element is not considered part of the formal name. Good Mornin, I don't have any of his writings handy to check this assertion, but I remember the intent was not to make X his last name, el-Shabazz does that. He rejected Little because it was passed down through the family from a slaveowner. 'Malcolm X' was used by him in a manner similar to the way Madonna, Cher, Fabio, and Prince (until the name change... sort of...) use a single name. LC's catalogers didn't appreciate this when they created that 'X, Malcolm' busi-ness. I would definitely add See references to his birth-name and his Muslim name. Anne Who's sorry she didn't get a 'Malcolm the Tenth' baseball cap or t-shirt when they were plentiful. Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:00:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Colleen McColgan Subject: Re: Malcolm X again Thanks to everyone who took the time to post a response to my Malcolm X query. When I was rushing to finish the index and became stumped, it was comforting to know that I had the group to ask for help. Have a great weekend! Colleen McColgan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:11:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Malcolm X again In-Reply-To: <199707250608.XAA21971@mx3.u.washington.edu> X, Malcom is like Magnus, Carolus or Stammerer, Louis. Malcom X is a style name, one not to be taken in the normal usage. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:32:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Malcolm X again At 08:34 PM 7/24/97 -0700, Pam Rider wrote: >Why not just > >X, Malcolm > >and > >Malcolm X > >Some instances call for double postings. I think that this is one. If there are only one or two page references, double posting would be my preferred solution as well. However, if there are a substantial number of page refs, I'd pick "Malcolm X," with an x-ref from "X, Malcolm" and his Muslim name, if the book (or the audience) is the sort where that would be appropriate. Sometimes rules need to be broken for common-sense reasons and to assist the reader...who cannot be expected to know or understand the sometimes esoteric reasoning behind them. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:49:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Malcolm X again So we might assume that LofC would index the rock singer Meat Loaf as Loaf, Meat? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:25:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Bankhead Subject: Pricing Help Can anybody direct me to a source (online or otherwise) that can give me an idea about pricing a freelance writing job? Specifically writing a manual to accompany an instructional video? Please e-mail any suggestions to pbankh6297@aol.com. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:58:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Malcolm X again At 01:49 PM 7/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >So we might assume that LofC would index the rock singer Meat Loaf as Loaf, >Meat? > >Dick As Dick, Paul and Christine point out, names are not always simply divisible as First Last. A space between the words does not guarantee a separation -- the composer Ralph Vaughn Williams comes to mind, his last name being Vaughn Williams. Isn't the issue here more about how someone will USE the index, rather than the sociological implication of naming? As a reader: I would look up Meat Loaf under M. I would look up the first Tudor king under Henry, not under VII. I would look for Malcolm X under Malcolm. As an indexer, I would take into account the presumed educational level of the reader. In books for the general reader: I'd index Ralph Vaughn Williams under V with a cross reference from W. I'd index Charles Martel the same way; with a cross reference from M. -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:36:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: rates and lost client Rachel, Thanks for raising your rates! It helps us all. You will lose some clients, but you will eventually gain other higher paying clients. If you were hired at a low rate because you were inexperienced, you cannot expect that same client to suddenly want a higher-quality, higher-paid indexer. This is a K-mart client. You must go on and find other clients who appreciate a better product. Move up! Take the time you would have spent on indexing another project for this client and spend it marketing your services. There are plenty of clients who will pay $3.00/page. I believe this should be the minimum for a professional indexer. It pains me to hear that there are indexers working for what I would guess is roughly $25,000. I hope they will move up soon also. I'm not opposed to negotiating, but you should know what your floor is and figure in a certain number of lost jobs. Since you've raised your rate 20%, you will break even with 20% less work during the transition. The best way to do this is to keep marketing while you are indexing. Find new clients. Then raise your rates. You will be much clearer about how much you want to negotiate with a client in that position. On a more optimistic note, this month I had two technical clients shock me with high rates. One packager said she paid $7-10/page. Another small house had paid up to $9/page for a very technical manual. Regards, Susan =============== =============== Susan Holbert/Indexing Services -- 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert Indexing Skills training videos Basic Skills workshops (Boston) -- Sept. 13 and Oct. 4 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:53:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: beginner's good news I'm delurking a) to thank you all for all the good counsel and information I've receiv ed from this list, and b) to share my good news: I just got my first indexing job! It is, of course, a rush job (due Aug. 4), but since it's my first offer, I figured it was well worth putting the rest of my life on hold for. I'm very excited but also somewhat nervous, so wish me luck! Kara M. Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:36:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: rates and lost client At 04:36 PM 7/25/97 -0400, Susan Holbert wrote: >On a more optimistic note, this month I had two technical clients shock me >with high rates. >One packager said she paid $7-10/page. Another small house had paid up to >$9/page for a very technical manual. Susan, this is so amazing, I'm tempted to think these folks meant a per-INDEX-page rate, rather than per-BOOK-page. A 500-page book at $10 a page would amount to $5000...a fee I don't believe I've ever even gotten close to. A more likely fee I would charge, for a medium-density semi-technical index, might be around $2000. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:34:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: congratulations and thanks First let me thank everyone very profusely for all your good advice (which I'm taking) about rates and clients, and for all the offers of help with the Hebrew transliterations. Most especially I want to thank Nancy for above and beyond the call of helping me out. Ho'daah, Nancy! (Is that right?) And congratulations to Willa and Kara. I'm happy for you both. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:51:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Al Stewart Subject: Re: Pricing Help At 02:25 PM 7/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Can anybody direct me to a source (online or otherwise) that can give me an >idea about pricing a freelance writing job? Specifically writing a manual to >accompany an instructional video? Please e-mail any suggestions to >pbankh6297@aol.com. Thanks. > Writer's market -- published by Writer's Digest -- usually has a listing of rates of this nature in each volume. Should be available at your library -- or bookstore. I don't have a recent edition on hand so can't give you a quote that would be meaningful. Al Stewart --------------------------------------------- Al Stewart -- stewarta@kootenay.awinc.com -- stewarta@impact.ca "Stewart Information Services" -- Helping YOU Communicate ---- Text Conversion - Scanning/OCR - DTP WP Format Conversion - Typing Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: apprenticeship I am a fellow member of ASI who is looking for an indexer to whom I can serve as an apprentice. I have completed the USDA's course in Basic Indexing taught by Nancy Mulvany, and now I am endeavoring to learn the in's and outs of "real-life" indexing. I do not mind doing mundane tasks that perhaps could enable you to focus more on the actual indexing process. I have Macrex Version 6, which I made use of to prepare my last indexing assignment for the USDA. If this arrangement would not work with your particular situation, do you know of anyone who may be interested in having an apprentice? As to some personal details, I am 27 years old, married, and active in some volunteer duties as a minister. I have received training in speech composition and public speaking in connection with being a minister for many years. Literature, in most any form, has always appealed to me. Also, if you are not interested in having an apprentice, but would accept help as "work-for-hire", I am making myself available to do name indexes for indexers. This, too, could free yourself of a mundane task so that you could give attention to more involved matters.Please contact me at nifkev@juno.com as to whether you would be interested in discussing the possibility of an apprenticeship relationship.Sincerely,Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 08:46:21 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: American English I index medical books, many of which are multi-author texts. British publishing companies are getting into the habit of leaving the text of authors using American English as it is, so the the book ends up being a mixture of English and American, and I am often asked to standardize the index to American spelling. Some books are entirely Americanized. I've got quite used to this, and know to put in cross-references from eg: oestrogen to estrogen oesophagus to esophagus adrenaline to epinephrine plus there are lots of drug names that are different eg paracetamol (acetaminophen), pethidine (meperidine), lignocaine (lidocaine), phenobarbitone (phenobarbital). These are traps for the unwary! As far as I know there is no reference source available on these differences. But I did decide that I'd like an American English Dictionary to have for reference - for my last index I couldn't remember whether or not controlling has one "l" or two, so it would have been nice to be able to look it up (I know - only one "l"). I went into my local bookshop to ask them about it - they looked up Webster's Dictionary in their search program and it came up with 70 pages of entries! So could anyone recommend a good basic edition of a standard (not medical) American English Dictionary that I can get over here (we seem to be able to order most things in print). I could probably buy one directly if I went into one of the big bookshops in Manchester, but I prefer to support my local one if I can. E-mail me directly if you prefer. TIA Liza Weinkove e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 08:19:48 -0400 Reply-To: chasm@philly.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles McCardell, Jr" Subject: Re: American English Liza Weinkove wrote: > So could anyone recommend a good basic edition of a standard (not medical) > American English Dictionary that I can get over here (we seem to be able to > order most things in print). I could probably buy one directly if I went > into one of the big bookshops in Manchester, but I prefer to support my > local one if I can. E-mail me directly if you prefer. > > TIA > > Liza Weinkove > e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk One recognized by most as authoritative and used by the publishing industry is Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition (1993). I find it adequate for most tasks. I doubt if you need an unabridged dictionary. -- Charlie McCardell, Esquire Legal Indexer 36 Lochwood Lane West Chester, PA 19380 610-436-8678 phone/fax chasm@philly.infi.net e-mail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:25:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Malcolm X again I believe that once Malcolm X had chosen his new name, he added, = "Besides, once I'm famous, it's going to drive indexers crazy." Craig Brown The Last Word= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:27:05 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kurt Leininger Subject: Commercial d-base indexing/abstracting Hi all; I am currently an indexer/abstracter working on the American Psychological Association's PsycInfo database. I'm interested in conversing mono-e-mono with others working at large database producing operations (H.W. Wilson, ERIC ect.) to compare notes on working conditions, production, salary/benefits, ancillary duties and any other matters that may arise. Thanks, Kurt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:07:03 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: American English In-Reply-To: <199707260859.BAA12004@dns1.mcn.org> Liza asks: >So could anyone recommend a good basic edition of a standard (not medical) >American English Dictionary that I can get over here (we seem to be able to >order most things in print). I recommend ^Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary^, 10th ed., as it has long been the standard reference for most publishers in this country. For use in publishing, it is a safe source. Best, Victoria Baker vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:12:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Homeowners insurance The limit on office equipment of the standard part of my homeowner's insurance policy is similar - $2500 on property used for business. However, one can get an additional, optional coverage for "permitted incidental occupancies" on ones "residence premises" that covers a named business. Mine is "computer scientist", removes the limit on property used for *that* business (that is, combines it with the limit on all other personal property, which is I think typically 1/2 the value of the house), and costs only $25 per year. I would think "indexing" as a business has no higher risks, and would therefore merit a similarly low premium. Joel Richard Evans wrote: > > This may be something you want to check on. > > I have a top-of-the-line homeowner's insurance policy that provides > full-replacement-value coverage (Allstate). During a recent policy review, > I discovered that my office equipment is covered only to a maximum of > $2,500. Since I figure I have about $10k in equipment and furniture, this > caused me some concern. Furthermore, my agent told me I *cannot* increase > this coverage under my homeowners policy and must take out a separate > policy (the details of which are still under negotiation). > > It is not yet clear to me why this limit exists and why it cannot be easily > overriden, but the rest of you might want to check your own policies in the > meantime. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:16:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Homeowners insurance The policy endorsement I referred to covers only the property of the business; interruption of business and recreation of records is another matter. Joel Roberta Horowitz wrote: > > The reason you can't increase your homeowner insurance to cover your > other equipment is because the other equipment is considered part of a business > rather than part of the home. > > You need to get Business Insurance. When looking for business coverage > you should consider policy that include interruption of business as well > as coverage to recreate your business records if necessary. > > Roberta Horowitz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:01:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lenity Mauhar Subject: Book review An item of interest from the San Diego Union-Tribune's BOOKS section, 13 July. A new book was reviewed by Robert P Laurence--The Quotable Cyclist, Bill Strickland, ed. Publisher: Breakaway Press. Quoting Mr Laurence: "As you can see, this is a popcorn book, one to be nibbled a bit at a time, and at random. Unfortunately, that's how you have to read it. Strickland has included a table of contents indicating where you'll find quotes on training, the first ride, women in cycling, crashes, etc., but he erred in omitting an index." .... "Interested in finding all of Ernest Hemingway's quotes? Want to know what the racer Eddie Merckx had to say? You're on your own." Should we all send resumes, price lists, and samples to Breakaway Press? Lenity Mauhar, indexer Coronado, CA Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live. --Mark Twain ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 06:09:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Malcolm X again I find that as this discussion continues, that I am more convinced than ever that there should be two entries for listing Malcolm X's name in an index. Readers are likely to have as strong inclination each way as those here have. It's only fair to have two entries. Even if we could determine right from wrong here, it would not matter a twit to a reader who was going to check through a another form. At 10:25 AM 7/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >I believe that once Malcolm X had chosen his new name, he added, = > >"Besides, once I'm famous, it's going to drive indexers crazy." > > >Craig Brown >The Last Word= > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:42:26 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: counting entries Hi all, One more question to Cindex users. I'm being paid by the entry for this Hebrew job. Cindex counts records for you but it gives a count of 512 entries but 777 page references and 12 cross references. What's the difference, and which is the correct number to bill for? Thanks! Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:46:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Scholarly SIG This is the informal report I wrote about the formation of the Scholarly SIG. I sent it to everyone who was already on my list, but at least one person doesn't seem to have received it, so I'm posting it here. Please contact me directly if you're interested! Do Mi Stauber DStaub11@aol.com 541-461-5085 Thirty people met on the last evening of the Winston-Salem conference to talk about scholarly indexing. There was a lot of enthusiasm about forming ourselves into an ongoing group--a Special Interest Group of ASI. Forty-seven people have expressed an interest so far! We decided to start with networking: being available to each other to answer questions about indexing or our particular disciplines, and share the unique experiences of indexing scholarly books. I volunteered to make a networking list of email addresses/phone numbers and specialties. We also discussed educating authors and publishers about the value of good indexes, marketing ourselves, and lobbying for more programs about scholarly indexing at ASI annual meetings. These projects are all open for volunteers! I'm hoping right now that someone who was at the meeting will be willing to write a short report for Keywords. Please let me know if you can do this. I am putting together the networking list. If you gave me contact and specialty information at the meeting, I already have it. If you were not there or didn't sign that list, please email or call me right away. The information I need is: Name, phone number, email address (if you have it), regular address, and subject specialties (brief). Since being on the networking list means being willing to have other members contact you for information or support, let me know if you don't want to be on it. (I'll keep a separate list of SIG members.) Also, please tell me if you know other people who might be interested (anyone who isn't on Index-L and wasn't at Winston-Salem may not know about this yet) or have them get in touch with me. I'm very excited about this group and the large amount of interest it has generated! I think that scholarly indexing (yet to be exactly defined, by the way!) is more different from textbook and technical indexing than is sometimes assumed, and have been yearning for more connections with people who do it. So...here we go! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:09:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Include exercises in page ranges? I'm indexing a student textbook on PageMaker. The intended audience is high school students so each section has a short exercise practicing what was described in the section. For example, a section on kerning describes how to adjust kerning, then the exercise applies those techniques to a real sample document that the student uses throughout the book. In many cases, the section ends on a page break, before the exercise begins. The exercises are, in most cases, about a half page long. When the page breaks before the exercise, should I include the page the exercise is on as part of the page range for the subject? For example, supposed that kerning is discussed on pages 40-42 and its exercise is on page 43. Should the index entry for kerning read: kerning, 40-42 or kerning, 40-43 ? It might make the index unnecessarily busy because many sections are only one page long. The client is somewhat concerned about length, but not overly. I doubt if this change would decrease/increase the line length of the index much. There are longer exercises at the end of each chapter but I am not including those in the index. Thanks, Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:23:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Malcolm X again In-Reply-To: <199707271309.GAA13530@mx5.u.washington.edu> The problem with X, Malcom, beside the fact that it is wrong, is that almost no one would look for such an entry. Why bother? Are we that illiterate? Although I admit that I have seen worse in indexes and after grading undergraduate papers for years I might answer my rhetorical question yes. But this is just one man's option, please don't take it more seriously than intended. Paul D. Buell PS: The see should be under Malcom X's real name, I think. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Tristram Subject: Re: counting entries Rachel, i'd go with the 777. i work with embedded tags, and you'd have to build 777 of those tags to get the index you came up with. Just because some of the entries were the same, merged together, and listed out the page numbers is irrelevant. That's my opinion anyway........ Jill Tristram ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:37:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Malcolm X again At 11:23 AM 7/27/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote: >PS: The see should be under Malcom X's real name, I think. If we're going to pick nits, here's an extremely small one. Malcolm X's "real" name is the name he chose and was known by during his politically and religiously active lifetime. His "birth name" might be a better way to describe the name he was born with, and which he subsequently changed. Having said that, I agree that there ought to be at least a "see" reference under his birth name, as well as any other variant by which readers might reasonably be expected to know him. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:37:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Include exercises in page ranges? If space may become an issue, and most sections are only one page, I'd eschew indexing ANY exercise pages. Better in this case to be consistent about what is indexed, and since students will be most interested in the explanation and not the exercise, that's how I'd do it. Also, anybody who is using the book will know immediately that the short exercises follow directly on the discussion of a specific topic--thus, calling out the page number can be considered a redundancy. If I had my druthers and space was not a problem, I'd index the discussion in roman and the exercise section in italic, unless italics were already being used for some other page reference purpose (such as illustrations). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:10:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Malcolm X again In-Reply-To: <199707271842.LAA16282@mx2.u.washington.edu> Tudor, Henry. See also Henry VII. That's all I meant. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:31:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Zibman Subject: Re: congratulations and thanks Thank you for the thank you, Rachel - but the word you wanted was 'todah' (If you hadn't asked me if it were correct, i never would have corrected you - I'm very pleased that I could help) N ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:48:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: counting entries Rachel, if you do a squeeze/single command in Cindex, it will give you the actual number of page references. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:45:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Online indexing A question came up in the indexing and abstracting class I am teaching as to what computer programs are used for online indexing. I would appreciate hearing from those of you who do online indexing as to what program(s) you work with. Thanks. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Online indexing In-Reply-To: <199707281846.AA10951@world.std.com> What do you mean by "online indexing?" I use VAX DOCUMENT and soon will use FrameMaker to insert index tags into the chapter files. Sarah Lemaire On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 Locatelli@AOL.COM wrote: > A question came up in the indexing and abstracting class I am teaching as to > what computer programs are used for online indexing. I would appreciate > hearing from those of you who do online indexing as to what program(s) you > work with. Thanks. > > Fred Leise > Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:07:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: textbook indexing I am indexing an accounting textbook as a practice exercise while I wait for USDA lesson results, and I have come across some inconsistencies in the published index, some issues I would like to question. 1. In the introduction, the authors included a lengthy discussion about why they use real companies as examples in exercises, etc. In Mulvaney's book, it says exercises at the end of the chapter are not usually indexed. The index of this book includes the real companies in the exercises for the first chapter or two, then leaves them out. Poor planning? Would this be done? I mean, would anyone index those pages *only* for company names and not any other content? 2. It appears (I haven't checked it completely) that notes within discussion boxes are not indexed, except when it is one of the authors of the textbook who is quoted. This seems inconsistent to me. 3. Sometimes I feel like I am only picking up terms in bold print, company names, etc. Is this a common feeling with textbooks? 4. The book uses one imaginary company in many examples over several chapters. Again, it looks like the company name is indexed for the first 100 pages or so, then is left out. I think I would leave it out completely. Would you? Thanks for considering these questions. Chris Carr cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:13:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Your interest level in your book content All, Opinions, please - have you found that interest in the content of the books you index provides significant difference in job satisfaction? SIGs exist because people specialize, and interest often leads one person to index science texts and another computer manuals. If you specialized, do you think you are happier and even perhaps more skillful than you might have been otherwise, due to pleasure in the book content? If you didn't specialize, do you wish you had, or do you think variety is the spice? Thanks, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:40:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content I became an indexer because of an assignment on staff of a publisher (still a major customer) of textbooks in speech, language, and hearing. My first index was on a book about language pragmatics. I would not personally define the field as pragmatic or particularly illuminating for someone such as myself, not a speech-language pathologist. That book and its index were widely praised. (And I still don't have a clue. . .) I actually think that a certain amount of ignorance in a field helps in the indexing of a book. The person who is thoroughly knowledgeable in a subject matter may not index material valuable to a general reader. Or, an expert might over-index, anticipating that others will be as fascinated with details as they are. I more-or-less think that it's easier to make professional decisions on what to index when one is working on material that the indexer has personal distance from. I keep thinking I would like to index something for a book I would select to read for pleasure, but genuinely believe I provide better analysis and indexes for books I would never elsewise pick up. Sadly, one gets "typecast." Often publishers only want indexers with academic background in a field, which I think is mistaken. At 02:13 PM 7/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >All, > >Opinions, please - have you found that interest in the content of the books you >index provides significant difference in job satisfaction? > >SIGs exist because people specialize, and interest often leads one person to >index science texts and another computer manuals. If you specialized, do you >think you are happier and even perhaps more skillful than you might have been >otherwise, due to pleasure in the book content? > >If you didn't specialize, do you wish you had, or do you think variety is the >spice? > >Thanks, >Linda > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:01:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Herr Hallinger Organization: Herr's Indexing Service Subject: counting entries I would charge for the number of entries, not the number of page references. Linda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:51:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Online indexing The company I work for CINAHL Information Systems uses Cuadra STAR system. STAR is very well suited for this activity. Roberta Horowitz At 02:45 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >A question came up in the indexing and abstracting class I am teaching as to >what computer programs are used for online indexing. I would appreciate >hearing from those of you who do online indexing as to what program(s) you >work with. Thanks. > >Fred Leise >Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:34:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Indexing specialties 28 July 1997 What a great question Linda Cast asked! (Her question was whether our interest in the subject area increases our job satisfaction or not). For me, the subject area is usually directly related to job satisfaction. Very little gives me more satisfaction that working on a book that I find fascinating or thought-provoking or extremely well-done. When those afore-mentioned characteristics are linked with books in subject areas that I know a lot about, it seems like a match made in heaven. On the other hand, I've been surprised by my loyalty and affection for certain books with those same characteristics in fields that I originally knew little about. In fact, some books on topics obscure to me have been so well-written and interesting that I have gone on to *become* a specialist in those fields! Similarly, I've done indexes to books in fields that I knew very well, that were poorly written and poorly argued and were dull in the extreme. I think that the quality of book is the most important thing in job satisfaction for me, followed closely by one's interest in the work. And--if you work directly with authors as I often do--having pleasant encounters with them is another factor in job satisfaction as well. I'm interested in hearing what other people have to say on this....Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: counting entries Re:<> There seem to be 2 "camps" out there. As an experienced indexer, I've heard of people who do it by number of *entries*, and others who charge by number of *page references*. I'd be interested to hear more on this. And to hear from those of you who represent publishers. What's your take on this. Janet Perlman Southwest Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:01:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Online indexing In a message dated 97-07-28 14:59:43 EDT, you write: > > A question came up in the indexing and abstracting class I am teaching as to > > what computer programs are used for online indexing. I would appreciate > > hearing from those of you who do online indexing as to what program(s) you > > work with. Thanks. Like Sarah, I'm wondering what you mean by online indexing. For documents that are going to go online, clients want index entries embedded in the document electronically. For this type of "online indexing," I embed index entries in MS Word or FrameMaker. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:05:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: textbook indexing In a message dated 97-07-28 15:35:00 EDT, you write: > 2. It appears (I haven't checked it completely) that notes within discussion > boxes are not indexed, except when it is one of the authors of the textbook > who is quoted. This seems inconsistent to me. > Chris, It sounds like it was indexed by one of the authors! ;-) Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:28:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Online indexing In-Reply-To: Pmauer@aol.com "Re: Online indexing" (Jul 28, 5:01pm) I started writing a description of the differences among "online indexing" definitions. Everybody thinks "online indexing" means something slightly different. So I created a Web page -- it's just a first draft, and I'd love the input of those who "know" -- which can be found at http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth/pulpfree.htm I would like to suggest to the general public that the term "online indexing" be banned as ambiguous and even inaccurate. Of course, it won't ever be banned, really, but I would urge indexers and publishers/ packagers to choose more effective vocabulary when describing such indexing environments as embedded indexing, Web indexing, online help, and so on. I mean, even the term "indexing software" is ambiguous! :-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW ADDRESS O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:46:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Online indexing In-Reply-To: <199707281847.LAA05491@mx3.u.washington.edu> Excel. This is pretty universal for Msoft contractors. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:57:00 -0500 Reply-To: sfiferca@ngs.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Fifer Canby Organization: National Geographic Subject: . Form: Memo Text: (1 line follows) Index-L Digest Use Proportional Font: true Attachment Count: 0 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:51:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: counting entries I have always charged by entry and never by the number of page references. At 03:01 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >I would charge for the number of entries, not the number of page >references. > >Linda > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:50:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Peregrim Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content Hi all! Another de-lurker emerges! (Well, actually I did post once before in response to Dick's question about copyright royalties.) I'm a freelance indexer in California who must reply "yes" to all conditions. I gain incredible satisfaction working with materials with which I am "expert." These are the topics that have held a long and deep fascination for me and continue to do so. I'll never get bored with books about film and theatre (my degree work), or music. History replaced novels for me long ago. Anthropology and archaeology are also good friends. But if I never strayed beyond these bounds I would feel something lacking. I always welcome a new subject and have found very little to be totally boring beyond all redemption. Being paid for an introduction to the mysteries of psychiatry, astronomy or rooftop gardening is always intriguing. I guess I'm just one of those insatiable, omnivorous learners who are naturally attracted to this kind of work. Being paid to read is a dream come true. (When not pursuing indexing as a relative beginner of about one and one half years and three projects worth of experience, I also tape record books and other materials for visually impaired university students.) I never know what's going to appear as the next project - but it's always an adventure. Sometimes an admittedly far less thrilling adventure than others, but an adventure nonetheless. As for the issue of being more skillful when dealing with familiar topics, I would certainly bring a greater degree of subtle and complex thinking to indexing topics with which I am intimately familiar; hopefully an asset to the resulting index. But if the book is aimed at beginners to the subject, being a beginner can have its advantages too; it's easier to think like the prospective reading audience. John Peregrim Indexing Services Sacramento, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:17:17 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: LAW INDEXES Does anyone know where (perhaps on-line) I can browse through some legal indexes. I am working on my first one and would like to see how other indexers dealt with certain situations. Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:27:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: headings for beyond 2000 Shocking that this hasn't come up on INDEX-L yet... How would you word an entry for computer software & operating systems that support dates beyond the year 2000? Dates post-2000 Dates 2000 and beyond Dates beyond 2000 I'm leaning towards the last. Any opinions? Other ideas? I'd love to hear 'em. 8-) -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:35:42 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Re: Online indexing >I started writing a description of the differences among "online indexing" >definitions. Everybody thinks "online indexing" means something slightly >different. So I created a Web page -- it's just a first draft, and I'd >love the input of those who "know" -- which can be found at > > http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth/pulpfree.htm > You'll actually find this at http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth/pulpfree.html (original address gives a "does not exist or has moved" message) I would agree that the terms "online indexing" and "computer-assisted indexing" which is also mentioned to the site above are pretty meaningless. As a database indexer, working with some old systems which still rely on indexers working onto paper forms, I know that NLM has "online indexing" which means their indexers can input direct into work forms on the NLM system and checking of thesaurus terms etc is automatic. The section on Indexing Software mentions Cindex/Macrex type software - for us it means software which can be used to create an index database - such things as Cuadra Star, which someone else mentioned in a post today, or ProCite, or the other bibliographic software systems which are used to create indexes of the MEDLINE, CINAHL etc type. So the terminology is all a bit confusing, or confused! Sandra Henderson Canberra, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:51:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Online indexing I think the question of online indexing comes from those doing database indexing for databases like Medline, Psych Info, CINAHL. I do online indexing and what that means is there is a database and a record is created for each article. You then call up the record and type in the index terms and other fields like descriptors. In most cases, the systems are designed so that the fields are validated as you do the entry, i.e. if you spell the term wrong or use a wrong subheading the system just doesn't accept the entry. Hope this helps clarify things. Roberta Horowitz At 05:01 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-28 14:59:43 EDT, you write: > >> > A question came up in the indexing and abstracting class I am teaching as >to >> > what computer programs are used for online indexing. I would appreciate >> > hearing from those of you who do online indexing as to what program(s) >you >> > work with. Thanks. > >Like Sarah, I'm wondering what you mean by online indexing. For documents >that are going to go online, clients want index entries embedded in the >document electronically. For this type of "online indexing," I embed index >entries in MS Word or FrameMaker. > >Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html >Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 >Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 >PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com >Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:18:31 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: Online indexing NLM uses AIMS. I still write on paper forms that get sent to overseas, non-English speaking, non-English reading keyboarders. One of my paper dataform companies tells me we'll go to computer indexing and I'll submit disks with information. S. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:23:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: counting entries At 04:43 PM 7/28/97 -0400, JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: >There seem to be 2 "camps" out there. As an experienced indexer, I've heard >of people who do it by number of *entries*, and others who charge by number >of *page references*. > >I'd be interested to hear more on this. And to hear from those of you who >represent publishers. What's your take on this. Janet, it's been years since I've had a job that was billed this way, but for awhile I worked for an indexing company that contracted with book publishers and supplied them with indexes prepared by freelancers whom they hired (such as me). At that time, the going rate was 25 cents per entry, if I recall correctly, and that didn't seem bad at all (when I was charging $1.50 per page). Most pages had anywhere from 5 to 10 entries, so it felt like I was making about my normal rate. Was I ever shocked to discover that their idea of "per entry" was just that...per entry line in the index, not per PAGE entry! We negotiated a somewhat better per-entry rate, but as soon as I had built up a sufficient clientele who could meet my usual page rate, I stopped working for these people. They simply were not paying enough. IMO, it takes as much time to read a page and locate an appropriate entry on it the first time the subject comes up as it does the second or fifth time. The only difference is whether you need to type in a line of text...and in some cases, it's just as easy to type one or two words as it is to scroll back to the place where the original entry is and add a page number. If I were working on a per-entry rate today, I'd be certain that it was high enough to make the index come out to my usual per-page rate. Then it wouldn't be necessary to count page entries at all. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:31:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: headings for beyond 2000 At 04:27 PM 7/28/97 -0700, Kari Bero wrote: >How would you word an entry for computer software & operating systems that >support dates beyond the year 2000? > > Dates > post-2000 I like the one above. And I'd also figure out some way of entering "Year 2000" as a main entry in the index--maybe as "2000," under T, as if it were spelled out? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:27:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Literary references to indexing 28 July 1997 Quite a long time ago, there was a thread on Index-L concerning literary references to indexing, and--for those of you who may still be interested in the subject--I have another contribution. Penelope Lively's _Heat Wave_ [an all-too-apt description of current Midwest conditions!] features the relationship between a female freeelance editor and her son-in-law, who is doing research for a book on tourism. At one point, the author's mother-in-law receives a phone call from her son-in-law's research assistant, who says: "....if someone could say to him that the indexer who did his last book isn't going to be available so we're making inquiries about someone else. I only need to hear from him if he isn't happy about that." --Not much of a reference, but if anybody were interested, I figured, it would be someone on this list!--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: wsc-jec@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content ---------- > From: Linda Cast > > Opinions, please - have you found that interest in the content of the books you > index provides significant difference in job satisfaction? > > If you didn't specialize, do you wish you had, or do you think variety is the > spice? > If I didn't like most of the subject matter I index, I wouldn't be doing this. Some of the little history books from a small university press have actually been the best written narratives I've done, and I do these at a discount price. Much of my job satisfaction lies in being able to read mostly interesting things. I've even applied some of the psychology books' concepts to my own life. I will never wish that I had specialized. One of the joys of this work is the opportunity to do substantive thinking on a variety of topics. I'm a generalist and damn proud of it! Interdisciplinarians, unite! Joanne AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen |Do or do not; there is no try. 9597 Jones Rd. #113 Yoda| Houston, TX 77065 (281) 469-4461