From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 1-JUL-1998 14:04:24.43 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9804B" Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:42:53 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9804B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:46:32 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jgreene Subject: Indexing fiction Has anyone ever written an index to a fiction book? I'm about to do that for an independent study and wonder whether that will be any different than preparing an index for a nonfiction book. I don't know of any fiction books with an index. If anyone on this list should have any words of wisdom they could offer to perhaps open my eyes to see a little more clearly what I'm in for, or if you would know of a fiction book with an index that I could look for, I invite you to respond. I'm not a professional indexer, just a student (at present near the end of the USDA course) hoping to become one in the near future. Thank you. Joyce Greene ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 04:42:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Indexing fiction Joyce Greene wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Indexing fiction Joyce Green asks about indexing fiction. I indexed one fiction book but doubt that it was typical. The author wanted only the nonfictional names, places, and events to appear. There were enough of those to make it a full index. After reading Christine's response I wonder if there is a greater tendency to index fiction in the U.K. than in the U.S. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:17:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Indexing fiction -Reply They may be bigger and more complex than what you're looking for, but I have seen indexes particularly in science-fiction/fantasy-type series that are sold as stand-alone products and guides to various series of books. I know I've seen more than one for Tolkien's Middle Earth series and I think there is one for Anne McCaffrey's works, too. Piers Anthony would be another possibility, simply because he is so prolific! There is also an index that I have seen to the Sherlock Holmes series. This is a little different in that these indexes generally cover more than one book, but it has been my experience that sci-fi/fantasy uses indexes more frequently than any other type of literature-- I think the subject matter tends to lend itself to such treatment. Good luck! -- Sharon W. >>> jgreene 04/09/98 01:46am >>> Has anyone ever written an index to a fiction book? I'm about to do that for an independent study and wonder whether that will be any different than preparing an index for a nonfiction book. I don't know of any fiction books with an index. If anyone on this list should have any words of wisdom they could offer to perhaps open my eyes to see a little more clearly what I'm in for, or if you would know of a fiction book with an index that I could look for, I invite you to respond. I'm not a professional indexer, just a student (at present near the end of the USDA course) hoping to become one in the near future. Thank you. Joyce Greene ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:16:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653 Subject: Re: benefits of membership of various organizations The benefit of being a member of any organization is in direct proportion to your involvement in that organization, in my opinion. If you only read the newsletter and don't get involved at meetings or in activities, no organization is a good venue for getting work. On the other hand, any organization in which you meet people, chat about indexing, and make known your qualifications, availability, and interest in work can be a venue for finding new clients. I once got an excellent job at a summer picnic of my local herb society, and the follow-up from that job lead to many more interesting indexing jobs over a period of several years. (The membership included a lot of faculty members and their spouses, so it really was a pretty good networking group for indexing scholarly publications.) In other words, the key is in the networking itself, not in the organization in which you network. On the other hand, networking among publishers, editors, and authors who need your work will pay off in the long run more than networking among gardeners who aren't writing books! In my opinion, if you only have a limited amount of dues money to spend in a given year, join one national and one local organization and work from both directions. If an organization doesn't lead to any contacts within the first year, you can join another organization--either national or local--the following year. Or give the organization another year if you feel that things are just starting to happen for you there. In the meantime, also be working on your networking skills. Those of us who work from home/independently can usually use some refresher work on getting out with people. I know that I benefit from rethinking my approach to networking now and again. My 2 cents, Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:39:07 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Archives? Help! I just looked at my "Welcome to Index-L" information and still can't figure out how to access the archives. I requested the index but that just shows dates, not subjects. How do I access the archives and look for a particular subject or thread? What I'm looking for is the thread on ergonomic mice and keyboards. I think I remember that some of you recommended a particular keyboard with a touchpad. Since I'm looking for something to improve the aches and pains, I'd love to retrieve those posts. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance. Marsha Lofthouse mailto:mlofthouse@targetsmartinc.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:34:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex Subject: Seattle hotel Best Fares magazine claims that there are discounted rates starting at $49 per night in the Seattle area. The number they list for information is 206-461-5881. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:09:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marlene London Subject: Seattle I very much enjoyed last year's conference but will not be able to make it to Seattle. So if anyone lucky enough to go needs to pass on any indexing assignments, I'm available. My subject expertise includes business, health, history, horticulture, Native Americans, and social sciences. To my great chagrin, I am not yet listed in the ASI Indexer Services directory, although I've been a member since 3/97. I've complained bitterly to B.-P. Davies, who said all members will receive an application in late '97 or early '98 for inclusion in the 1998 version. We're past the first quarter of '98, and I haven't received it, nor have I received any issues of "The Indexer". Am I the only one with this problem? Any suggestions? Marlene London Profindex@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:13:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Archives? On Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:39:07 -0600 Marsha Lofthouse writes: How do I access the archives and >look for a particular subject or thread? > >What I'm looking for is the thread on ergonomic mice and keyboards. I >think I remember that some of you recommended a particular keyboard >with >a touchpad. Since I'm looking for something to improve the aches and >pains, I'd love to retrieve those posts. > Marsha, I don't know if the archives are indexed under subject anywhere. The only way I know how to find a particular post is to know the date (or at least the week) is was posted. Look at the archives list you now have, find the relevant date, and make a note of the Log number. Then send a separate Index-L command to retrieve the Log: GET INDEX-L LOGxxxx . As long as your email program can handle the large file, you will get all the postings for that week. Then you just have to scroll through to find what you want. The ergonomic thread was one or two weeks ago - sorry I can't remember the exact dates, but it might cover more than one week. Susan Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:53:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Archives (plus a secret nag) The list available from the listserv at Binhamton is a different entity than the Index-L archives. To access the archives, which are searchable, go to the ASI web page, click on Online Discussion Groups, pan down to Index-L, and click on the gopher link (which I have included below, but if they are wrapped, you need to create one long line before clicking): **While you're at the ASI web site, go to the long range planning survey, print it out, fill it out and mail it in (the nag has struck).** Excerpted from the ASI web site: INDEX-L Archives -- There are two ways to look at the archives: 1.Subscribers can receive archives directly from listserv@bingvmb by sending the following message to that address: index index-l. You will receive a list of available archives, and directions of how to do so. 2.Anyone can view the INDEX-L archives through the library gopher at Georgia Southern University. The GSU gopher is located through a gopher client; the addresses are below. gopher://gopher.GaSoU.edu:70/11/Georgia%20Southern%20University/Henderson%20Libr ary/assistance/Index-L gopher://informer.cc.GaSoU.edu:70/11/Georgia%20Southern%20University/Henderson%2 0Library/assistance/Index-L or by telnet to gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu (follow the trail: /Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Organizations/Index-L). Messages are stored here from the start of the listserv in 1992. A WAIS searching program is available to search through all years at once or through a selected year. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:47:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman Subject: ASI THings Marlene, The applications for the Indexer Services directory, now called the Indexer Locator, have not gone out yet. You have not been forgotten. They are not scheduled to go out until early summer. We are now working on the member directory. That comes first. As for The Indexer, this is a British publication and not under ASI's control at all. Unfortunately, the October 1997 issue was not published, so nobody received it. There has not been a spring issue yet either. ASI is looking into what can be done. Janet Perlman Secretary, American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:52:14 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Archives/Ergonomics In-Reply-To: <199804081755.KAA17014@asis.com> Dear Susan, Earlier ergonomic discussions took place somewhere around 2/27/98 to 3/27/98. I saved some infor regarding some of the equipment mentioned. I will send them to you directly. Naomi >On Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:39:07 -0600 Marsha Lofthouse writes: > > How do I access the archives and >>look for a particular subject or thread? >> >>What I'm looking for is the thread on ergonomic mice and keyboards. I >>think I remember that some of you recommended a particular keyboard >>with >>a touchpad. Since I'm looking for something to improve the aches and >>pains, I'd love to retrieve those posts. >> >Marsha, > I don't know if the archives are indexed under subject anywhere. The >only way I know how to find a particular post is to know the date (or at >least the week) is was posted. Look at the archives list you now have, >find the relevant date, and make a note of the Log number. Then send a >separate Index-L command to retrieve the Log: GET INDEX-L LOGxxxx . >As long as your email program can handle the large file, you will get all >the postings for that week. Then you just have to scroll through to find >what you want. The ergonomic thread was one or two weeks ago - sorry I >can't remember the exact dates, but it might cover more than one week. > >Susan > >Susan Danzi Hernandez >BookEnd Indexing > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] J. Naomi Linzer Humboldt County Redway, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:04:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: Archives? In-Reply-To: <199804081538.LAA01517@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Marsha, I'm using a Cirque Wave Keyboard 2 with glidepoint pad. I love it and will never go back to a standard keyboard and mouse. Susan Healy On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Marsha Lofthouse wrote: > Help! I just looked at my "Welcome to Index-L" information and still > can't figure out how to access the archives. I requested the index but > that just shows dates, not subjects. How do I access the archives and > look for a particular subject or thread? > > What I'm looking for is the thread on ergonomic mice and keyboards. I > think I remember that some of you recommended a particular keyboard with > a touchpad. Since I'm looking for something to improve the aches and > pains, I'd love to retrieve those posts. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks in advance. > > Marsha Lofthouse > mailto:mlofthouse@targetsmartinc.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:22:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie & Steve Rizzo Subject: Re: Web Indexes Hi Lynn, I am finishing up the same Web Indexing course that Kevin referred to. Let me give you some more info. The course is done online (from Australia). We have created indexes on several topics, which naturally means we reference several (many) web sites. We also have discussed the tools available for web indexing, search engines, creation of thesauri and annotated bibliographies. Before creating our own indexes, we looked at several examples of web indexes and discussed their characteristics. It sounds as though your own Web site may be a form of web index itself. It is an exciting field and one I am hoping to add to my BOTB indexing. Check out www.wwwalker.com.au/webcourse.html for a course outline. Marie Rizzo Lynn Moncrief wrote: > At 07:05 PM 4/6/98 -0700, Charles wrote: > >If any Index-L members have had experience with creating Web-based (HTML) > >indexes to digitized files - JPEG files - (images, archival pages, etc.), I > >would be very interested in know what kind of time estimates you found > >worked well - in what ever form you have - minutes/photo - > >minutes/entry/photo, etc. > > > >Please reply to me offlist at anderson@kcls.org (unless you think the info > >would be of interest to other list members). > > > > Charles and others, > > I think that this would be of interest to many list members, just as > Kevin's excellent posts on Web indexing were "keepers". (No, Kevin and I > aren't in a mutual admiration society. It's just coincidence that we liked > each other's posts. This doesn't mean that I don't admire Kevin. I do. Oh, > never mind!) While we nervously watch clients move their indexing inhouse, > I think quite a few of us are eyeing Web indexing as the next frontier (to > paraphrase a title of an ASI conference ;-D). > > In the same vein, I am hoping that Kevin posts the particulars of the Web > indexing course he took. Does the course, for example, focus on indexing > one particular Web site or does it also address creating an index on a > particular subject with links to a large number of sites on the Web (like > what I've been working on for my own Web site)? > > Lynn > > *********************************** > Lynn Moncrief > (techndex@pacbell.net) > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing > *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:22:52 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Re: Archives? Thanks Susan! I knew someone had mentioned a specific keyboard but I couldn't remember which one! M > -----Original Message----- > From: Susan Healy [SMTP:welshone@FREENET.TLH.FL.US] > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 3:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Archives? > > Marsha, > > I'm using a Cirque Wave Keyboard 2 with glidepoint pad. I love it and > will never go back to a standard keyboard and mouse. > > Susan Healy > > > On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Marsha Lofthouse wrote: > > > Help! I just looked at my "Welcome to Index-L" information and still > > can't figure out how to access the archives. I requested the index > but > > that just shows dates, not subjects. How do I access the archives > and > > look for a particular subject or thread? > > > > What I'm looking for is the thread on ergonomic mice and keyboards. > I > > think I remember that some of you recommended a particular keyboard > with > > a touchpad. Since I'm looking for something to improve the aches and > > pains, I'd love to retrieve those posts. > > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Marsha Lofthouse > > mailto:mlofthouse@targetsmartinc.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:43:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret and Jerry Ordansky Subject: Re: Indexing fiction jgreene wrote: > > Has anyone ever written an index to a fiction book? I'm about to do > that for an independent study and wonder whether that will be any > different than preparing an index for a nonfiction book. I don't know > of any fiction books with an index. > > If anyone on this list should have any words of wisdom they could offer > to perhaps open my eyes to see a little more clearly what I'm in for, or > if you would know of a fiction book with an index that I could look for, > I invite you to respond. I'm not a professional indexer, just a student > (at present near the end of the USDA course) hoping to become one in the > near future. > > Thank you. > I believe Vladimir Nabokov wrote an index to a novel he wrote. jo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cathy Spitzer Subject: geneological indexing software Hi, I've been assigned to demo a geneological software program for an indexing course. Another group is already preparing to demo SKY Prof. Does anybody out there have a suggestion of another indexing software program made for geneology indexing? Thanks! Cathy Spitzer Cathy Ellen Spitzer cspitzer@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student Graduate School of Library and Information Science University of Texas-Austin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:48:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cathy Spitzer Subject: geneological indexing software question Hi, I've been assigned to demo a geneological software program for an indexing course. Another group is already preparing to demo SKY Prof. Does anybody out there have a suggestion of any other indexing software program made for geneology indexing? Thanks! Cathy Spitzer Cathy Ellen Spitzer cspitzer@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student Graduate School of Library and Information Science University of Texas-Austin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:54:19 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jgreene Subject: Indexing fiction Thank you! to everyone that has responded to my original message. You are a great resource and I appreciate your willingness to answer queries like mine. Christine, I blush to admit that although I have been to the ASI web page many times I never really used the index! I am finding myself doing that more and more (turning first to the index, that is) with books and now I will also pay more attention to indexes at web sites I visit. Regards, Joyce Greene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:24:09 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: ASI THings In-Reply-To: At 04:47 PM 4/8/98 EDT, Janet Perlman wrote: >As for The Indexer, this is a British publication and not under ASI's control >at all. Unfortunately, the October 1997 issue was not published, so nobody >received it. There has not been a spring issue yet either. ASI is looking >into what can be done. > Guess what has just landed on my doormat? The October 1997 issue of the Indexer! I guess I am not the only one to have received this today, at least in the UK. Apparently the April 1998 issue will be published in June and then it will be back to normal. Margaret Binns ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:11:52 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: AusSI Web pages readdressed As the new Webmaster of the Australian Society of Indexers Web site, I have rearranged many pages into subdirectories. Those of you who maintain Web pages with links to the site may want to check the validity of those links. The rearrangement is ongoing, but the home page will stay put (for the time being) so links to http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi will remain valid, and thus far no other page on the site is more than two steps away from it. For those who want a practical exercise in information management, I can recommend setting up a Web site, or better still, taking over one from somebody else ;-) Visitors to, and comments on, the site are welcome. Jonathan. =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal Diagonal@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:58:16 -0400 Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Organization: Broccoli Indexing Services Subject: Anne Leach's speech Does anyone have notes from or is Anne Leach's speech on marketing available online? Someone said she gave it around 1995 or so. We want to review some of her ideas in an upcoming chapter meeting. Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management brocindex@catskill.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:47:49 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: ASI THings In-Reply-To: <892068522.1110040.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In message <892068522.1110040.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, JPerlman writes > >As for The Indexer, this is a British publication and not under ASI's control >at all. Unfortunately, the October 1997 issue was not published, so nobody >received it. There has not been a spring issue yet either. ASI is looking >into what can be done. > Dear All, The October 1997 issue of the Indexer has just emerged from hibernation, and will reach all subscribers as quickly as the various postal authorities operate (whatever that may be). According to Janet, the April 1998 issue should be mailed in June this year. I do not know all the details, but the delay was caused by a concatenation (there's a long word for the late evening) of circumstances which Janet says "could not possibly all have happened at the same time". I am sure that everyone here would wish to apologise for the delay - you WILL get your copies, eventually. There is not really anything ASI could do, except complain. Hope this will help to mollify at least some of you some of the time. Best wishes, Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Mobile: 07771-615239 (Vodafone) ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:41:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JWashin683 Subject: Student Hello my name is Joan Washington and I am currently a student at the Graduate School USDA, taking basic indexing. I will be siging on often, and hopefully joining discussion groups regarding starting an indexing career. I am also reading a book written by Nancy Mulvany on applied indexing. I wanted to know from you seasoned indexers, what are the pitfalls and low points about indexing. In other words, what were your darkest moments before the dawn of consistant work. I've heard all of the fluff, now give me realities regarding the industry. Thanks, JWashin683@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:05:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JWashin683 Subject: Help New to Index-L. I'm trying to get information files on Frequently Asked Questions and General Information About LISTSERV. How do I input these commands. I keep getting error messages. Joan Washington JWashin683@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:37:35 -0400 Reply-To: Ken Reigner Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ken Reigner Subject: WIW Spring Writers Conference, Washington, DC, May 8 and 9 [Please forgive the cross-postings.] For Immediate Release Contact: Isolde Chapin (202) 347-4973 Washington Independent Writers Conference To Offer Help for Both Seasoned and Beginning Writers May 8 and 9 Conference To Feature More Than 20 Sessions WASHINGTON--Washington, New York and Boston writers, editors and agents will meet with aspiring writers during the Washington Independent Writers (WIW) Spring Conference here May 8 and 9. The 19th annual WIW conference, to be held at the National Press Club in downtown Washington, will offer sessions of interest to both seasoned and beginning writers. The conference will open Friday evening with a keynote address by Kitty Kelley, author of "The Royals" and celebrity biographies of Nancy Reagan, Frank Sinatra, Elizabeth Taylor and Jackie Kennedy. Kelley's talk will be followed by a book signing and buffet supper. On Saturday, literary agent Donald Maass will share his publishing know-how at a morning plenary session. Maass also will be available during the day to offer advice to fiction writers. Novelist Sharyn McCrumb will be the luncheon speaker. For an additional fee, Ellen E. M. Roberts, president of Where Books Begin in New York, will offer manuscript critiques for materials submitted in advance. Throughout Saturday, conference participants may select from among 20 specialized panels and workshops. Some sessions will be targeted to specific writing niches such as mystery, travel, children's writing, memoirs, screenplays and women. Other sessions will cover free-lance basics such as identifying markets, contracts, taxes, working with editors and self-publishing. Among the participating conference panelists will be Karen Cicero Conlon, associate editor of American Health for Women; Phyllis C. Richman, Washington Post food critic and author of "The Butter Did It"; John Gilstrap, suspense novelist and author of "Nathan's Run"; Chris Keane, screenwriter and author, "How To Write a Selling Screenplay"; Kristine A. Puopolo, editor, Viking Penguin; John Wood, articles editor, Modern Maturity; and Elliott Parker, associate professor of journalism, Central Michigan University, and founder/owner of the Internet-based Computer- Assisted Reporting and Research List (CARR-L). Early conference registration is $100 for members of WIW or the National Press Club and $150 for others. After May 1, fees will increase to $125 and $175, respectively. Manuscript critiques will cost an additional $125. Registrations are accepted by check, Visa or MasterCard and should be mailed to WIW, 733 15th Street NW, Suite 220, Washington, D.C. 20005. For additional information or to request a complete brochure, call the WIW office at (202) 347-4973. Information is also available on the World Wide Web at or via e-mail at . Washington Independent Writers was founded in 1975 to help free-lance writers, editors and journalists overcome their isolation and to provide professional and social forums for the exchange of ideas and information. As a nonprofit organization, WIW provides a variety of services and resources to its 2,000 members and plays an active role in issues that affect the independent writing profession. WIW also sponsors an Internet-based discussion and mailing list, WIW-L. To subscribe, send e-mail to , and in the body of the message, put just the line "subscribe WIW-L your-first-name your-last-name" (without the quotation marks). -30- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:45:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Mulvany Subject: Status of The Indexer The October 1997 Indexer is finally printed and mailed, and UK readers will already have their copies. We have done our best to keep the other indexing societies informed of the delay and the reasons for it (all the editor's fault), but since it appears some people had the impression the October issue was simply not being published, we want to make it clear that it will be with you soon. The April Indexer, due at the end of this month, will be printed in May, and should be with you some time in June. We are sorry that US readers have to wait so long for their copies, but this is due to delays in the US. We are looking into ways of accelerating US delivery, but we assume readers will not want to pay the extra cost of letter-rate airmail. Janet Shuter Editor, The Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:14:25 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Book Search/Comments I am interested in finding a book and was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of it. Brown, Alan George. Introduction to subject indexing: a programmed text. C.Bingley, London; Linnet Books, Hamden, CT, 1976. Any information about it would be appreciated. I have used many programmed texts over the years and am a devotee of BF Skinner, out of whose work programmed texts were developed. Has anyone here ever used it? ...Dan -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Dan Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing and Editing Services http://WFWIndex.necaweb.com/ Woodstock, CT, USA -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:23:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGWeaver Subject: Re: Student In a message dated 98-04-09 23:19:57 EDT, you write: << I wanted to know from you seasoned indexers, what are the pitfalls and low points about indexing. In other words, what were your darkest moments before the dawn of consistant work. I've heard all of the fluff, now give me realities regarding the industry. >> Without a doubt, the low points are (1) that LONG wait between the first mailing soliciting clients and the first job [about 6 months in my case, which appears to be typical], (2) slow-paying clients, and (3) self-employment taxes! The high points? (1) The first time a client expresses awe that you can produce such a professional product with such apparent ease (not being aware of the long hours/effort required to do so!), and (2) being responsible only to yourself about the way you work! Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:13:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Student Low points: Having to buy and maintain your computer equipment and be your own technical support for your hardware, operating system, and all applications. After years of struggle (and I'm no novice when it comes to computers) I finally found a technician who makes house calls. He charges $70 per hour, but it's a bargain. The alternative is hours of effort on my part or days of down time disconnecting everything and taking it all to a service center. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:21:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Student On 4/9/98 20:41 JWashin683 wrote: >I've heard all of the fluff, now give me >realities regarding the industry. The big four Ss: Slow pay, Slack Seasons, Self-employment taxes, and Slipped Schedules. Carolyn already mentioned two of those. The other two are frequent topics of discussion on this list. Slack Seasons are times when it seems like the publishing industry has gone out of business entirely and you start thinking seriously about that career as a cart wrangler at Piggily Wiggily. Slipped Schedules are those of the publisher, when you get the page proofs days, weeks, or even months later than they were supposed to arrive, and they will arrive at the most inopportune times. They make a good case for having a written contract that deals with such things or an excellent understanding with the editor/publisher that you may not be able to make the original turnaround time. I agree with Carolyn that being gainfully self-employed offsets the disadvantages. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:21:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: geneological indexing software In-Reply-To: <199804090426.AAA28129@mail2.bellsouth.net> At 11:09 PM 4/8/1998 -0500, you wrote: >I've been assigned to demo a geneological software program for an indexing >course. Another group is already preparing to demo SKY Prof. Does anybody >out there have a suggestion of another indexing software program made for >geneology indexing? > >Cathy Spitzer > >Cathy Ellen Spitzer >cspitzer@mail.utexas.edu > >Graduate Student >Graduate School of Library and Information Science >University of Texas-Austin Cathy, which program are you going to demo? Or did you mean a genealogical *indexing* program? (Which I don't think I've seen any of...). I ask because my wife and I were both early betas/co-developers for The Master Genealogist, and we now do 2 or 3 workshops each year on "computers and genealogy," which includes a gloves-off comparison of the software available. For that reason, we get all the updates to the half-dozen or so best (or best-selling...) programs. I'm replying here in case anyone else is interested in this sort of thing, but we probably ought to continue this by email since it seems somewhat off-topic. (I'm gonna be outtatown for a few days, though, so I may be a bit slow.) Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:09:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: specific main entry versus general main entry, specific subentry Hey all, I'm looking for opinions here. I'm indexing a software manual, but this could probably apply to other areas. I've just been indexing too many software manuals lately. When you come across a term that is individual in its own right, but that the first word of the term is a main entry, do you enter the term itself, or enter it under the more general main entry. Example: system events It could be entered as system events, 459 or system, events, 459 And yes, I would also index under events, system, 459 except that events are only discussed for 2-3 pages and it seems absurd to have 3 different events listed under that main entry for that short a page range. So I've entered events, 459-461 I am more inclined to index it under system events. That is specifically what it is. I have been questioned why I can't just enter everything under "system," "networks," etc. But to my mind, there are items that are entities unto themselves. Opinions?? Thanks Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:11:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Student At 12:13 PM 4/10/1998 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >After years of struggle (and I'm no novice when it comes to computers) I >finally found a technician who makes house calls. He charges $70 per hour, >but it's a bargain. The alternative is hours of effort on my part or days >of down time disconnecting everything and taking it all to a service center. I've got a computer fellow who is worth his weight in gold...and that would be a large fortune, as he is 6'8" tall and weighs about what you'd expect someone of that size to weigh! His rates recently went from $30 an hour to $40, but he is a bargain at any price. I haven't had too many real disasters over the years, but I collect up the annoying small irritants and have him make one house call to service ALL the computers (we now have three between us). He is fast, competent, and blessedly will EXPLAIN what he is doing as he goes along. This latter service is worth the price of a house call in and of itself, as his explanations have prevented me from doing a lot of stupid things on my own. He's a great teacher as well as a super fixer-upper. I cannot agree more that in this day and age, technology has outstripped most of our capabilities for do-it-yourself repairs. We all need to know the basics, but beyond that, finding a competent, skilled, honest computer guru is worth the effort. I would also add that having a backup system in place is essential. If your guru cannot come THIS MINUTE and you are on deadline, you're sunk. And if your repair job requires parts that must be bought (or, heaven forefend, ORDERED from somewhere), you are doubly screwed. Every computer in my house has my indexing program installed and ready to run. I have two sets of backup disks for every current project. If this machine belched fire and died right now, I could be up and running in about 10 minutes on two different machines. They're both years older and creakier than this one, but they both work fine for my purposes. Take a minute to think through your backup plans. It's possible (though expensive) to rent a computer system. Kinkos (in my area, anyway), is a 24-hour operation...expensive, but in a pinch you could manage. Better yet is to hang onto your outmoded computer when you get a new one and keep it as a standby. Keep backup disks for everything--and if you're really paranoid, send a set home with a friend "just in case" (fire, burglars, etc.). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:16:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: specific main entry versus general main entry, specific subentry At 02:09 PM 4/10/1998 EDT, LLF EdServ wrote: >Hey all, >I'm looking for opinions here. I'm indexing a software manual, but this could >probably apply to other areas. I've just been indexing too many software >manuals lately. >When you come across a term that is individual in its own right, but that the >first word of the term is a main entry, do you enter the term itself, or enter >it under the more general main entry. Example: > >system events > >It could be entered as > >system events, 459 > >or >system, >events, 459 In that particular case, "system events" strikes me as a main entry in its own right. And since it will follow closely on the other main entry, "system," I wouldn't worry about it not being found. If I were being really picky, I might duplicate the entries from "system events" under "system, events," but it would look and feel "wrong" to do this except possibly for reader convenience. In the world of computers, "system events" really is a separate entry from "system." There, now. Was that convoluted enough for you? ;-> =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:39:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: specific main entry versus general main entry, specific subentry In-Reply-To: <199804101816.OAA01699@ulster.net> > >system events > >It could be entered as > >system events, 459 > I would use that one. It is its "own thing," not a subhead of systems. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:37:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: specific main entry versus general main entry, specific Leslie, IMO, "system events" should be its own main entry, because in this instance "system" is an adjective modifying "events." That's the criteria I try to use when determining whether or not to split up a term and put it on a second level under a main entry. Does your book make clear whether or not "system events" and "events" are the same thing? If they are, I would have a see reference from one to the other. Some authors differentiate between the two terms, others don't. Cheryl Jackson Macmillan Computer Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: specific main entry versus general main entry, specific sube Author: LLF EdServ at internet Date: 4/10/98 2:09 PM Hey all, I'm looking for opinions here. I'm indexing a software manual, but this could probably apply to other areas. I've just been indexing too many software manuals lately. When you come across a term that is individual in its own right, but that the first word of the term is a main entry, do you enter the term itself, or enter it under the more general main entry. Example: system events It could be entered as system events, 459 or system, events, 459 And yes, I would also index under events, system, 459 except that events are only discussed for 2-3 pages and it seems absurd to have 3 different events listed under that main entry for that short a page range. So I've entered events, 459-461 I am more inclined to index it under system events. That is specifically what it is. I have been questioned why I can't just enter everything under "system," "networks," etc. But to my mind, there are items that are entities unto themselves. Opinions?? Thanks Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:54:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Student In-Reply-To: <199804101524.IAA12623@smtp4.teleport.com> High points - being asked to index a fourth book for the same press (brag!) - being referred from one editor to another in a different company and state - getting a call from your original marketing letter (that now you think was so primitive) - getting the index you're doing to "click" earlier and earlier - going to the Conference - having local friends refer you to their friends who are writing books Benefits - not having to put up with insame bosses or coworkers - sleeping till you wake up, or indexing during insomnia spells - getting paid to read books over gourmet coffee - getting the chance to really KNOW a book, inside and out - new challenges with each book - able to travel/play and say "Sorry, my time is scheduled until next Tuesday" - work from home - peace and quiet - furry, purry helpers hanging around Low points - re-reading previous indexes and seeing your errors - blank spots in the calendar - fear that this new index will never 'come together' and I'll be revealed as entirely too stupid to be an indexer... Mine is the second income, so many of the low points (taxes, down-time) are not as low as someone else's lows. DO find someone who can come and fix your computer, as needed. I found someone for $50 an hour who is a bargain (the $16.00/hr folks took two full days to do what he did in 3 hours). I actually thought my computer was a lemon until he got hold of it. Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing index@teleport.com www.teleport.com/~index ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:03:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: Re: specific main entry thanks Thank you all who responded so quickly. I had defended it myself as a single entry on its own, but I've had some really petty things happen with this client and wanted the moral support of you all in this decision. The editor asked for my opinion on her suggestions, and I gave it. She then told me that she could see that we couldn't make decisions based on the partial index of the first 4 chapters that I sent her, and that they would just have to edit whatever they felt necessary at the end. And to go ahead and do it my way. I admit, I'll be afraid to look at the index when I get the book. In fact, I probably won't. Thanks again, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing BTW Since it is tax season and I am feeling it greatly (even though I'm getting money back this year for the first time in over a decade!!!!!) the taxes are a big downside to freelance indexing. I HATE the self-employment taxes!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:25:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: specific main entry versus general main entry, specific subentry At 02:09 PM 4/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >Hey all, >I'm looking for opinions here. I'm indexing a software manual, but this could >probably apply to other areas. I've just been indexing too many software >manuals lately. >When you come across a term that is individual in its own right, but that the >first word of the term is a main entry, do you enter the term itself, or enter >it under the more general main entry. Example: > >system events > >It could be entered as > >system events, 459 > Don't arbitrarily break up compound nouns. If the thing is known by its full name, index it that way.. A better example might be Hypertext Markup Language. You would *not* index: Languages Hypertext Markup Markup Languages Hypertext Some cases are obvious, some require knowledge of how the users view the term. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:28:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Student In-Reply-To: <7af691d0.352e395c@aol.com> >In a message dated 98-04-09 23:19:57 EDT, you write: > ><< I wanted to know from you seasoned indexers, what are the pitfalls and low > points about indexing. In other words, what were your darkest moments before > the dawn of consistant work. I've heard all of the fluff, now give me > realities regarding the industry. >> Hi point: the first book I got that had my name listed as Indexer and showing a friend in a bookstore several books that had my name. Low point, slumps like right now. Having to market. Having 2 books slip their arrival dates and crash very severely into my vacation. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:11:44 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Ho0815 Subject: unsubscribe Please take my name off the listserv. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:49:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Manjit K. Sahai" Subject: French Titles Hi everyone, I am indexing a book about earthquakes. The author of the book is French. (By the way, the book is written in English). In the entire book, the author has mentioned lots of book titles about earthquakes (written by different authors) in French and the translation of those titles in English in parens. For example: Theorie de la Terre (Theory of Earth) Die Entstehung der Kontinente und Ozeane (The origin of the continents and oceans) My question is....should I list all the titles the way they are listed in the book (French titile followed by English in parens)....or should I list the titles in English also and then followed In French in parens. For example should I list.... Theory of Earth (Theorie de la Terre) The editor does not care how I do it. He says "the index should be presentable" .I just wanted get opinions from all the wonderful people from INDEX-L. Thanks in advance. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:46:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: Student In-Reply-To: <199804101856.OAA04600@ulster.net> >- furry, purry helpers hanging around > OTOH, one of the great things about owning my own house and setting up my office is that it has a *door*!!! No more coming home to hairballs or "extruded" mouse parts all over the job that's due tomorrow. And less hair in the hard drive. The "furry, purry" numbers are never allowed in here. The dog's welcome tho'. The occasional cold nose or bumped elbow is acceptable--he stays on the floor--and leaves when I leave. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:56:28 +0900 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: French Titles >From Christine Headley Manjit K. Sahai wrote: > I am indexing a book about earthquakes. The author of the book is French. > (By the way, the book is written in English). In the entire book, the author > has mentioned lots of book titles about earthquakes (written by different > authors) in French and the translation of those titles in English in parens. > For example: > > Theorie de la Terre (Theory of Earth) > Die Entstehung der Kontinente und Ozeane (The origin of the continents and > oceans) > > My question is....should I list all the titles the way they are listed in > the book (French titile followed by English in parens)....or should I list > the titles in English also and then followed In French in parens. For > example should I list.... > > Theory of Earth (Theorie de la Terre) The crucial word is 'mentioned'. Save yourself the bother. Leave them out unless there is a decent amount of discussion of an author's ideas. Then index under that author's name. If a book is discussed in sufficient detail, consider posting it under both languages (with the other title in brackets), but it is more likely that a reader will be looking for the author's ideas rather than the specific title. I would index the discussion of the above books as 'earth, theory of', 'continents, origins' and 'oceans, origins'. Anyone looking for something to measure the other books against will look there for the discussion. Even if the author of the book you are indexing is really keen for all the other authors to buy his book, and therefore wants them in the index, honour is satisfied if you put them in by name, not their books. Christine Headley ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:55:20 -0700 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: THANKS Hi All, I just want to thank everyone who responded to my cry for a publication to help with indexing software manuals. I opted for Read Me First: A Style Guide for the Computer Industry. I found it at Borders after about 10 tele calls. I would recommend this book. Here's something to brighten everyone's day. I was talking to the publisher whom I mostly work with. He was at OAH and had received his packet from ASI. I asked what publishers were saying about it. He said he did not discuss it, too busy, lots of sales. But he did say that he would put more stock into an indexer who belongs to ASI. He respects the organization. So maybe we won't we thrown into a file folder and filed away forever. Thanks again. I won't be in Seattle. I promised my mother a vacation to the East and I can only fit it into that time slot. I have work this summer!!! So have fun. I won't even be here to talk about the rest of you. Oh, Another question. Does anyone welcome a list of indexable terms from the author or would you just as soon not have them? I'm asking this question for a publisher. Kathy P. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: French Titles In-Reply-To: <199804110402.XAA13466@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Theorie de la Terre (Theory of Earth) >Die Entstehung der Kontinente und Ozeane (The origin of the continents and >oceans) > >My question is....should I list all the titles the way they are listed in >the book (French titile followed by English in parens)....or should I list >the titles in English also and then followed In French in parens. For >example should I list.... > >Theory of Earth (Theorie de la Terre) When I'm faced with this situation, I double-post the titles *only* when the book has actually been published in translation. That is, if "Theory of Earth" is merely the translation of the French title and not also the title of a book published in English, then I would index it only this way: Theorie de la Terre (Theory of Earth) However, I also include the author's last name in the parens. BTW, although you didn't ask about this, my clients all want me to treat the foreign articles (in this case, "Die") the same as articles in English: either leave them in place but ignore in sorting, or drag them to the end of the title. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Student At 03:46 PM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >And less hair >in the hard drive. Although I have to agree with your other comments, I was pleasantly surprised to find that hair in the hard drive has not been a problem. I recently had some work done on my computer, a tower case that sits on the floor in the path of all sorts of furry critters. I asked the technician if he found any appreicable accumulation of cat hair and he said the insides of the PC were as clean as any he had seen in a regular office. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:09:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman Subject: List of Indexable Terms Kathy, At the end of your "Thanks" posting you asked if indexers like it when a publisher sends along a list of indexable terms. Speaking for myself, such a list isn't too useful, and just gets a passing glance. The only time it is useful is if I am indexing something so out of any field I've worked in that the vocabulary is totally unfamiliar, so a list of terms would be a good starting point. However, the likelihood of my working on such a project in very low, so by and large, the list of terms would be superfluous. Often, too, there are problems with such a list of terms -- what somebody else who is not an indexer think is "an indexable term" really isn't. So all in all, considering how busy those authors are, I'd counsel the publisher to omit the list. A professional indexer should be able to do a fine job on his/her own. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:38:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jngcain Subject: Re: French Titles I would vote for only indexing these titles by the English translation since the intended audience is English-reading. Besides, even if the reader knows the title in the other language, s/he would naturally look for it in English, the language of the work, first. Jennifer Cain ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:37:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SCTopping Subject: Re: French Titles If the books mentioned are treated substantively, I would index under both French and English. Once all the entries have been made, you could delete any duplications that would fall immediately adjacent (Theory/Theorie). If there's room to treat them in this way, do it -- what if the reader could remember only part of the French title -- he/she would be out of luck if it were only in English. And by the way, I've seen indexes recently where the article is placed at the beginning of the entry but blocked from the sorting procedure. It looks something like: Boy Crazy Boys from Brazil Boys on the Side A bit odd on first glance, but it's growing on me -- any comments? Sandy Topping Sandra Topping Indexing Service 2508 Pebble Beach Drive Valparaiso, IN 46383-0400 (219) 465-3923 (phone/fax) "No matter where you go, there you are." (Buckaroo Banzai) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:45:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: French Titles In-Reply-To: <199804112140.RAA17821@ulster.net> >I would vote for only indexing these titles by the English translation since >the intended audience is English-reading. Besides, even if the reader knows >the title in the other language, s/he would naturally look for it in English, >the language of the work, first. > Unless there's a LOT of info on the particular book, directed toward that work itself, I'd index only the author. The book titles should appear in a biliography or Lit cited section (where they would be alph'd by author, anyway). -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:14:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: French Titles In-Reply-To: <199804121440.KAA24610@ulster.net> Sandy - I like to do it this way also. Gives the whole "true" title but puts it where most people would look for it. > >Boy Crazy > Boys from Brazil >Boys on the Side > >A bit odd on first glance, but it's growing on me -- any comments? -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:20:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: French Titles In-Reply-To: <3fd022b2.3530d1b4@aol.com> Sandy, I started doing that when I did a book on writing by writers that had a lot of reference to book titles. The editor hadn't seen it before but liked it a lot and said she was going to make that the style from then on. I've done it that way ever since and no one has complained. I always put the author's last name in parens, too. The Boys from Brazil (Levin) (hehe, that's the only one whose author I knew so I didn't put in the rest of your example) RR >And by the way, I've seen indexes recently where the article is placed at the >beginning of the entry but blocked from the sorting procedure. It looks >something like: > >Boy Crazy > Boys from Brazil >Boys on the Side > Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:08:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: List of Indexable Terms In-Reply-To: <199804120429.XAA28959@mixcom.mixcom.com> I agree with Janet Perlman's comments and would add that having the author provide a list of indexable terms might well raise the wrong expectations in the author. That is, an author who feels like she or he has gone to some trouble to provide terms might then expect every one of those terms to appear in the index. Some of them might not be appropriate. Whenever publishers have sent me such lists, I too have not found them useful: either because the terms are fine but they're exactly what I would have indexed anyway, or the terms are not fine. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: French Titles In-Reply-To: <199804120429.XAA28959@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I would vote for only indexing these titles by the English translation since >the intended audience is English-reading. Besides, even if the reader knows >the title in the other language, s/he would naturally look for it in English, >the language of the work, first. Oops, I may have misread the original post when I responded. I thought these books were published in French (and German) and that there was substantive discussion of them. If they're just citations, I would index the titles at all, just authors. And if the books were translated *into* French (and German), I'd index under English titles. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:43:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: Re: List of Indexable Terms I have received one step further. I received what the author considered THE comprehensive list of indexable terms, aka the index without page numbers. It was awful, really, really awful. I followed it as best I could, cringing the whole way. I told the publisher that I did make some changes to things that were so blatantly incorrect that I could NOT let them pass and I added some things that were left out completely. But I also made it clear that I did not anyone to know that I had had anything to do with any part of that index. I was beyond anomymous as far as that book was concerned. I never want to receive a list of indexable terms again!!! Leslie Frank Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:14:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11 Subject: Re: Articles in Titles Sandy wrote: << And by the way, I've seen indexes recently where the article is placed at the beginning of the entry but blocked from the sorting procedure. It looks something like: Boy Crazy Boys from Brazil Boys on the Side A bit odd on first glance, but it's growing on me -- any comments? >> I rarely get to choose, and most of my publishers prefer the other way, but I prefer this one. Inverting sounds really funny sometimes (Ear, the Eye, and the Arm, The) and I think readers skim over the initial article to see that the first main word is in alphabetical order. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:15:06 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Nabokov's 'Index' to a fictional work >Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:43:48 -0700 >From: Margaret and Jerry Ordansky >Subject: Re: Indexing fiction >I believe Vladimir Nabokov wrote an index to a novel he wrote. > >jo I'm writing from memory here, but here goes... Nabokov's book 'Pale Fire' is a pastiche in three parts: a poem called 'Pale Fire' allegedly written by an American academic, a long, rambling, slightly unhinged 'commentary' on the poem by a mythical rival academic called Charles Kinbote, which contains the plot of the novel, and an uncredited index apparently prepared by Kinbote. The index is more revealing of Kinbote's mental state than of the material indexed. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:34:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort Subject: Re: List of Indexable Terms Sometimes you just can't refuse such lists - either the editor sends it without asking me, or the author has hired me and in the interest of good client relations I tell him/her that such a list is fine. The latter situation is more tricky, of course, because the author may ask why you haven't used a particular term. In my experience, the editor tends to be a buffer between the author and indexer. When I receive such lists, I try to use the author's wording when I can, and to reword in other cases (turning adjectives into adjective-noun phrases for example). I've never been in the situation Leslie described where I had to use terrible terms. I've never had any irate feedback (and no editors have told me that they have...) In a project that I'm completing tomorrow, I would have welcomed such a list from the author (who hired me) but she was too busy to prepare one, although she wanted to. As it is, I waited until yesterday for her list and then had to make structural decisions. Then I have to spend time writing a cover letter explaining what I have done (choices of synonyms, etc.) to try to forestall her questions when she sees the index. This is the first book she has written and she is worried about the index so I'm anticipating some discussion with her once she reviews the index. All in all, I think I would have spent less time on this index if I had had the author's list. (Maybe I'm just in a bad mood because the index is already taking much longer than I anticipated!) Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * 2127 Rhode Island * mmortensen@compuserve.com * Lawrence, KS 66046 * 785-841-3631 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:41:59 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonald Subject: Article on starting an indexing business Hi, everyone! I am working on an article about starting a freelance indexing business and need a little assistance: (1) I would like to mention joining this list in my article but seem to recall discussion as to whether or not it was "legal" to publicize the list. The article is for an ASI publication, if that makes any difference one way or the other. Can somebody tell me if it is OK to mention the list, and if so, kindly remind me how one goes about joining. (2) If anyone out there has any hints to pass on, I would love to hear them. The article is supposed to be a kind of "to a newbie, from a newbie" sort of thing, and I am just that--new! I've been at this for less than 1 year and feel that much of my success has been plain dumb luck and being in the right place at the right time. I would appreciate hearing from others who are new as to what is working and what isn't working, and of course "war stories" from more experienced indexers are always welcome! I'm especially interested in anecdotes regarding training (courses, workshops, etc.), mentoring relationships (finding them and nurturing them), and marketing (mass mailings, cold calls, and so forth). Where did your "big break" come from? Please email any suggestions to me at Bonald@aol.com. Thanks! Bonnie Taylor Fayetteville, NC ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:23:45 -0400 Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Organization: Broccoli Indexing Services Subject: web hosting Anyone know any good deals on web site hosting? I'm finishing up my site and I'm looking into putting it online soon. Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management brocindx@catskill.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Organization: Broccoli Indexing Services Subject: [Fwd: Re: Web Site Indexing] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------45D92D98785C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems this wasn't posted, though I tried to send it out. Anyway...one more time: --------------45D92D98785C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <352AF5D8.1D8D@catskill.net> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 23:58:17 -0400 From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Organization: Broccoli Indexing Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Indexer's Discussion Group Subject: Re: Web Site Indexing References: <199804080125.BAA23879@catskill.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann Norcross wrote: > > Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > > > > OK- since there were so many requests for the info on web indexing, here > > goes: > > > > (1) Dwight Walker of WWWalker Web Development offers a fantastic course > > on this. Don't expect it to have the same type of structue as the USDA > > course. (It's out of Australia and the whole thing is online- so it's a > > different way of learning, but Dwight does a great job.) Visit > > http://www.wwwalker.com.au/ > > > > (2) The tool to use in making all of the links without going crazy with > > all of the tags, etc. is Webix. Dwight Walker (mentioned above) is the > > creator of this handy tool. Visit same site for info on this. > > > > (3) WebWacker enables you to save a website on your hard drive so that > > you don't need to be online the entire time that you're indexing a > > site. See http://www.bluesquirrel.com/whacker/ > > > > I took the course myself, and it's opened up a new world in indexing for > > me. > > Kevin, it does sound terrific. When you say its opened up a new > world... are you getting indexing assignments for Web sites? (Sorry > if you've already mentioned this--I've had to miss index-l for a few > days and may have missed your comments.) How's the scheduling, pay, > etc? Are you enjoying it? > > > Feel free to ask about more particulars if you would like. > > Oh. Ok! :-) How are you locating Web-indexing clients? > > Ann Good questions. I have only taken the course this past Feb-March, so I'm still in my marketing phase for all of this. I have been able to do some online newsletters for an organization, and they want an estimate for next year. I have no doubts as to the availability of work in this regard- there's a lot out there. As far as pay is concerned, just like with books, it depends on the difficulty of the subject matter, depth of indexing, countless factors. But since there is additional work and knowledge involved, one should be all means charge more than if they were doing an index for a book with the same level of difficulty, etc. Scheduling: well, for that first job that I did they were very laid back about it. I imagine that generally there is a little less pressure than with indexing books as far as a deadline is concerned. Marketing: Right now just surfing web sites, looking for ones that need indexes & then e-mailing them regarding it. I'm working on my own web site. I think that w/out a site it would be rather hypocritical :) Also one could contact web design teams and work hand-in-hand with them, indexing the sites that they design. Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management brocindx@catskill.net --------------45D92D98785C-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:47:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: articles and alphabetization Sandy wrote: > And by the way, I've seen indexes recently where the article is placed at the > beginning of the entry but blocked from the sorting procedure. It looks > something like: > > Boy Crazy > Boys from Brazil > Boys on the Side > > A bit odd on first glance, but it's growing on me -- any comments? Sticking the article on the end always struck me as awkward when I was merely a user of indexes, rather than an indexer. I knew the article wasn't sorted, but it was disconcerting to think it was missing, only to find it as a sort of afterthought at the end. Now that I'm an indexer, and try to be alert to how readers think as well as to "the rules", I'm beginning to think sticking it on the end may make the entry more readable when one is scanning the index. I've tried both (I have clients who prefer one or the other style,) and to be honest, I no longer know which I prefer. However, either is preferable to the style used frequently but inconsistently in both the "music issue" (an annual hymnbook) and in the permanent hymnbook recently purchased by our church. These actually index hymn titles under "The"! It's particularly annoying in the case of the hardcover, permanent book, because the songs themselves are also in (mostly) alphabetical order, with (most of) the titles beginning "The" grouped together around T H E. The other really annoying characteristic of the book is that they occasionally pull a song out of alphabetical order in order to make it fit across a single page spread, instead of front and back of a page. Granted, the latter is awful for singing, but the former makes finding the out-of-order songs rather tough. Of course, if you check the index, you may find the song missing (because, of course, it's under "The.") Clearly, the people who put together this particular hymnal may have known something about music, but they knew very little about alphabetizing! :-D Sorry, gripe over! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:23:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JWilson999 Subject: Re: Article on starting an indexing business I'd love to read your article when it's published. Be sure to let everyone know how to find it. Thanks. John Wilson Atlanta, GA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:28:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: tech question for Mac users Please excuse me for posting a non-indexing question, but I need to tap the experienced Mac users for a moment. Have any of you experienced an Apple monitor that went kerflooey in the following way: (1) sides of windows bowed in (2) viewing area slightly too big for the screen (small part of desktop lost on left and right sides). On Wed. (after my next deadline), I plan to call Apple, but I thought if y'all had seen this problem before and solved it, I could save $25. I've already tried rebuilding the desktop file and turning off and on the monitor. I couldn't find this problem mentioned in any of the Mac books on my shelf. Could this be a corrupted monitor control panel? Thanks for any advice you can offer. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:12:17 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: Nabokov's index to Pale Fire Just to whet your appetite, my copy of the The Indexer (October 1997) arrived a few days ago. It contains an article by Hazel Bell called "Indexes as fiction and fiction as paper-chase" which includes a detailed discussion of Nabokov's Pale Fire. I haven't read the book so I don't feel able to make any comment about it. However, this version of The Indexer is well worth waiting for. I particularly enjoyed the article on page 208 called "The world's greatest index" also by Hazel. Liza Weinkove ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:55:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nmbenton Subject: Re: Article on starting an indexing business Fellow indexers and would-be indexers: I have been indexing for about 8 years. The pattern of my career has been: 1) Started moonlighting while employed full time 2) Gave up full time job to freelance with established clients 3) Found full-time in-house indexing job with full benefits 4) Now my business plan includes doing a few freelance projects in webindexing to stay ahead of the curve intellectually. This pattern has worked very well for me and I recommend it! Nell Benton ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:58:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Initial articles in foreign language titles (was French Titles) At 12:28 AM 4/11/98 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: BTW, although >you didn't ask about this, my clients all want me to treat the foreign >articles (in this case, "Die") the same as articles in English: either >leave them in place but ignore in sorting, or drag them to the end of the >title. Good reminder, Carol. A place to find a list of many of these initial articles is in Hans Wellisch's book, Indexing from A to Z (2nd ed.). On page 240, see Table 4: "Articles in the Nominative Case in Some Foreign Languages." Most of the more common languages are listed in this table. On another note, The Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed.), in section 17.129, states that "Place-names beginning with non-English articles, except Arabic al- (see 17.114), are usually alphabetized under the article: El Dorado . . . Le Bourget . . ." etc. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:29:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AllWrite N Subject: Re: tech question for Mac users Carol, We are IBM users but my husband (an electrical engineer & live-in PC guru ;D) suggests you first make sure your monitor is completely plugged in to your PC. If the connection is loose it can cause signals to be affected. While you're back there, check ALL your connections just as a bit of preventive maintenance. Good luck! Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:35:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 10 Apr 1998 to 11 Apr 1998 In a message dated 98-04-12 00:26:47 EDT, Kathy P. wrote: << Does anyone welcome a list of indexable terms from the author or would you just as soon not have them? I'm asking this question for a publisher. >> To disagree with others so far, YES. I often work directly with authors, or in close contact with authors as well as their publishers. I routinely tell them that I welcome such terms. While, as Janet Perlman pointed out, these terms are often unindexable, they at the least will let me know what the author considers important or substantive. And, at the least, I can make sure the concepts indicated are included in the index. As a caveat, if working with the publisher as well, I will let them know if any of it was unusable, but there are usually some usable portions. I find that these types of lists, or whatever the authors call them, can act as guidelines for me. I often use them to verify what I have included (as Carol Roberts pointed out, they often are what I have already included), to confirm cross-references, what to do with various forms of concepts (synonymy!), etc. I would rather work with an author, however difficult that may be, than not. The trick is not to index by them, but to use them for quality control. As Carol Roberts also pointed out, the author may expect all the terms in there, but a professional indexer can easily articulate, and defend, to the author that not all those terms were appropriate, if need be. Also, if you have gotten the concepts themselves in the index, and done so in a qualitative manner, chances are they are going to think the world of you. In addition, you will most likely have provided more information in the index than he/she had anticipated, and will have provided a far better index than they had expected. I have never had a serious disagreement with an author over how a concept was included. As Mary Mortensen pointed out, having such lists can make time spent on the index a little longer than originally anticipated. But this can assure more quality control and I'd rather have a happy client, who refers me to others and who finds me willing me to work with him/her, than not. My recommendation: do not trash them! Pilar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing * PilarW@aol.com * http://members.aol.com/pilarw/web Great Indexes for Great Books ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:32:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: indexable lists In-Reply-To: <199804131242.FAA12843@powergrid.electriciti.com> I agree with Pilar. All parties working in publishing want a good product. I have never been criticized for not exactly following a list of indexable material. I have often wished more authors would supply their druthers. It's easy for me to recognize what is not usable in an author-supplied list and, more important, a very welcome bonus to have the author's insight from the get-go. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:40:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jngcain Subject: October issue of The Indexer Hi all. Can anyone tell me whom I should contact to get the "recent" October issue of The Indexer? Or is it a "members only" mag? Thanks for responding, Jennifer jngcain@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:44:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: French Titles -Reply Why not do both? Unless space is limited, of course. -- Sharon W. >>> Manjit K. Sahai 04/10/98 11:49pm >>> Hi everyone, I am indexing a book about earthquakes. The author of the book is French. (By the way, the book is written in English). In the entire book, the author has mentioned lots of book titles about earthquakes (written by different authors) in French and the translation of those titles in English in parens. For example: Theorie de la Terre (Theory of Earth) Die Entstehung der Kontinente und Ozeane (The origin of the continents and oceans) My question is....should I list all the titles the way they are listed in the book (French titile followed by English in parens)....or should I list the titles in English also and then followed In French in parens. For example should I list.... Theory of Earth (Theorie de la Terre) The editor does not care how I do it. He says "the index should be presentable" .I just wanted get opinions from all the wonderful people from INDEX-L. Thanks in advance. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: THANKS Kathy Paparchontis asked: Oh, Another question. Does anyone welcome a list of indexable terms from the author or would you just as soon not have them? I'm asking this question for a publisher. Kathy, If the author wants to send a list of terms, that's fine, but in my experience with computer books the lists of terms that the authors send are rather worthless. All the terms included are things that I would've included in the index anyway because they are major topics of discussion in the book. What is NOT worthless is a list of synonymous terms (i.e. "spreadsheets = worksheets") or a list of terms that look like they could be synonymous but really aren't (i.e. "databases are not the same as data tables"). Hope this helps. Cheryl Jackson Macmillan Computer Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: articles and alphabetization Librarians have always cringed at the thought of having a title alphabetized under the beginning article. In most of our print and electronic catalogs and indexes, such an article is useless (ex: the "T" portion of our library catalog would be hundreds of thousands of titles strong). Although sticking 'the', 'a', 'an', etc., at the end of entries looks goofy, it makes sense from our standpoint. Most electronic databases and catalogs now get around the problem by making common articles into "stop words", the computer ignores them when searching and sorting the output. Unfortunately, we have students who don't understand that words like 'the' are useless in a title search and get frustrated when the search returns either no result for something they know we should have or drops them into "ti" range of the title index. (Of course, they also don't understand that the word 'business' is nigh onto useless in a database covering nothing but business journals. The fault for their poor critical thinking skills is partially our own.) Anne At 10:47 PM 4/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >Sandy wrote: > >> And by the way, I've seen indexes recently where the article is placed at >the >> beginning of the entry but blocked from the sorting procedure. It looks >> something like: >> >> Boy Crazy >> Boys from Brazil >> Boys on the Side >> >> A bit odd on first glance, but it's growing on me -- any comments? > >Sticking the article on the end always struck me as awkward when I was >merely a user of indexes, rather than an indexer. I knew the article >wasn't sorted, but it was disconcerting to think it was missing, only to >find it as a sort of afterthought at the end. Now that I'm an indexer, and >try to be alert to how readers think as well as to "the rules", I'm >beginning to think sticking it on the end may make the entry more readable >when one is scanning the index. I've tried both (I have clients who prefer >one or the other style,) and to be honest, I no longer know which I prefer. [...] Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:36:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karin Arrigoni Subject: Re: tech question for Mac users Hi Carol, I once had a weird monitor problem with my Mac that could be fixed only by zapping the PRAM. You might try this before calling tech. support. Here's how you do it: Restart your Mac while holding down the following four keys: Command, Option, P, and R. Don't let go until you hear the startup sound. (Note: you might have to reset some of your settings (clock, desktop patterns, mouse, and date & time). Good luck! Karin P.S. Another good source for troubleshooting info for the Mac is the Tech Info Library (http://til.info.apple.com/). It's helped me out many times! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Frustrated, only marginally index-related, question... Hello, Does anyone else use OmniPage Pro to scan documents and HotDog2 for converting them to html? (To be indexed later) I'm doing a set of 1930s slave narratives, many of them are written in dialect form. Both of these programs are trying desperately to correct my spelling and grammar... At this point I need a cooler head to help find the right 'switches' to turn off. Anne Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:33:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: tech question for Mac users Hello, Carol-- The suggestions posted so far about your wonky monitor are all appropriate but I'll add one or two of my own [I actually _repair_ the things now and then]. All software control panels that I've encountered will not correct the distortions you have noted. However, your particular monitor may have its own panel controls you can fiddle with: they may allow adjustment of horizontal or vertical position, full-screen display or display with a border, stuff like that. Personally, I suspect an internal flaw within the monitor itself. For other users, either PC or Mac, a loose connector will usually cause rolling, a blank screen, or violent--but sometimes interesting--color changes. Losing the blue signal, for instance, may cause the display to exhibit pleasing hues of brown and orange. FURTHER QUESTION TO OTHER LIST MEMBERS. PLEASE REPLY OFFLINE. I use both Mac and PC systems and thereby have friends in both camps. One Mac buddy is installing an industrial-grade LARGE [used] monitor on one of her systems and discovered that the cable included with the unit has only 3 BNC connectors for the interface. From the notations on the rear panel I infer that this monitor will accept any of the three synchronizing modes: discrete H and V, composite sync, and sync on green.Since the original cable did not work I fabricated a four-line cable providing composite sync, since my research indicated that Macs provide that particular signal [however, one Mac technician was unclear about this]. This adapter doesn't work either so I am rebuilding it to add the discrete H and V signals. If this attempt fails then I will become bewildered. The monitor bench-tests perfectly and required only minor realignment. Does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing and have suggestions? [I know: RTFM.] Why do Macintosh parts cost so much? Are they blessed by Wozniak or something? Cheers to all, Dave Talcott 75711.1537@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:14:07 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: October issue of The Indexer You can order one from Janet Shuter the editor: shuter@cix.compulink.co.uk October 97 is just coming out... Been running very late. Are you a member of one of the indexing societies? You can join them and get a copy of The Indexer through them. Yes members only get it but email Janet any way... At 09:40 AM 4/13/98 EDT, you wrote: >Hi all. > >Can anyone tell me whom I should contact to get the "recent" October issue of >The Indexer? Or is it a "members only" mag? > >Thanks for responding, > >Jennifer >jngcain@aol.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker, Sydney, Australia tel +61-2-98960286, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) WWWalker Web Development: http://www.wwwalker.com.au Australian Society of Indexers: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi Sydney Linux Users Group http://www.slug.org.au Waverley Randwick Philharmonic http://www.wwwalker.com.au/wrps.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:19:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: H Schinske Subject: Hymn books In a message dated 98-04-13 00:08:31 EDT, LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU writes: << However, either is preferable to the style used frequently but inconsistently in both the "music issue" (an annual hymnbook) and in the permanent hymnbook recently purchased by our church. These actually index hymn titles under "The"! It's particularly annoying in the case of the hardcover, permanent book, because the songs themselves are also in (mostly) alphabetical order, with (most of) the titles beginning "The" grouped together around T H E. >> The indexes I've seen like this were first-line indexes, which HAVE to include the "The," because it's metrically part of the line. Most hymns don't exactly have titles, do they? The tunes have titles (very odd ones, some of them, like Rockingham or Charterhouse), but not usually ones with articles. I think it would be all wrong to have "The spacious firmament on high" under "spacious." But it also seems like a bad editing decision to put the hymns in alphabetical order in the book itself. In my experience it's a lot easier to find the number of a hymn than to pick it out of an alphabetical list, especially if the church has a fairly traditional hymnbook in which people are used to certain numbers meaning certain hymns. And having to find a *slightly out-of-order* hymn sounds like torture, I agree! (Kara said that some hymns had to be put out of order to achieve a two-page spread for longer hymns, which seems to make nonsense of the whole scheme.) Helen HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Manjit K. Sahai" Subject: French titles Hi everyone, Thanks for all the helpful suggestions regarding dealing with French titles. Today I talked to the editor again and he suggested listing all the tiltes the way they are listed in the book (French titles followed by English translation in parens) and then again listing titles in English followed by author's last name in parens. Acc. to the editor, the author wants this kind of arrangement. By the way, the author discusses the theme/main idea of each tiltle in 3-4 lines. I think I should have clarified in my original post. Thanks again for all the help. Your guys are really wonderful! Manjit K. Sahai Sahai-Co@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:30:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Hymn books Helen Schinske wrote: > << However, either is preferable to the style used frequently but > inconsistently in both the "music issue" (an annual hymnbook) and in the > permanent hymnbook recently purchased by our church. These actually index > hymn titles under "The"! It's particularly annoying in the case of the > hardcover, permanent book, because the songs themselves are also in > (mostly) alphabetical order, with (most of) the titles beginning "The" > grouped together around T H E. >> > > The indexes I've seen like this were first-line indexes, which HAVE to include > the "The," because it's metrically part of the line. Most hymns don't exactly > have titles, do they? The tunes have titles (very odd ones, some of them, like > Rockingham or Charterhouse), but not usually ones with articles. Just to clarify: I agree that an index of first lines can and usually does index lines beginning with "The" under "The." However, this particular hymnbook does not follow the usual (to me) convention of separate indexes for tune name (Hyfryddol, or Rockingham), first line ("The spacious firmament on high"), and sometimes for author/translator/source and/or for composer/arranger/tune source. Instead, it has a single index in which songs appear by title (if there is one) and by first line (if there isn't a title). By combining the two, the index appears to assume that all the first lines are in fact titles. There is no textual clue to distinguish between the two, such as roman vs. italic font, or the use of quotation marks. Unlike a more traditional hymnal, the hymnbook in question contains a number of modern "folk" hymns, many of which do have titles ("On Eagle's Wings", "Psalm 23") whose first lines are not indexed. All in all, finding anything in this book is rather frustrating! Oh, and incidentally, the hymns/songs have no numbers, either -- just page numbers. There is no index of composers or lyricists, either...extremely annoying, if you are trying to find for someone "that song by John Michael Talbot...you know the one." Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:30:30 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Articles in titles (was French Titles) I find an article at the beginning disruptive; if it's not at the beginning it is redundant, so I simply omit the article. I would write: Boys from Brazil. Glenda. > >And by the way, I've seen indexes recently where the article is placed at the >beginning of the entry but blocked from the sorting procedure. It looks >something like: > >Boy Crazy > Boys from Brazil >Boys on the Side > >A bit odd on first glance, but it's growing on me -- any comments? > >Sandy Topping > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:43:37 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Amir Parsi-Esfahani Subject: Back of books indexing Dear my friends I am a beginner in back of books indexing. Would you please introduce me some usful references in this field? Thanks in advance Amir Parsi Esfahani ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:48:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Conference Info on New ASI Web Site All -- Conference info, instructions for submitting notices to the new Conference Notices page, and a link to the conference e-mail address are now on the *new* ASI Web Site located at http://www.asindexing.org If you have questions about the conference, you can still contact me directly (76620.456@compuserve.com); you can also send e-mail to me from the new ASI Web Site. If you have questions or feedback about the new Web site, please respond to the webmasters (webmaster@asindexing.org). FYI, the current members of the Web Committee include: Marilyn Rowland, Chair and co-webmaster Janet Perlman, ASI Board Liaison Nancy Cannon Larry Harrison Julie Kawabata Seth Maislin, co-webmaster Devin Rushing-Shurr Gerry Van Ravenswaay Jan Wright Looking forward to seeing you in Seattle! :-) .... Lori *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Vice President/President-Elect, American Society of Indexers Lathrop Media Services, 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 / Phone: 704-531-0021 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:43:59 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Quotation query Not strictly indexing, but can anyone fill in the missing word(s) in this quotation and tell me where it comes from: 'Between the stirrup and the ground, something ... and something found' Thanks Margaret Binns ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:41:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Quotation query Margaret Binns wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Ordering The Indexer Dwight Walker wrote, re The Indexer: Hi all. > >Can anyone tell me whom I should contact to get the "recent" October iss= ue of >The Indexer? Or is it a "members only" mag? Janet Shuter has asked me to point out that orders should not be sent to her, but to the Subscription Manager, Frank Merrett, at: 14 Shaw Green Lane, Prestbury, = Cheltenham, Glos GL52 3BP UK Tel: (44) 01242 233227 E-mail: F.E.Merrett@bham.ac.uk The Indexer is supplied to members of the Society of Indexers and its affiliated societies as part of the membership subscription, but non-members may subscribe for 40 pounds annually, postage paid. Hope this helps. Christine (Secretary, SI) ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:21:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Quotation query In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980414114359.0069c198@mail.u-net.com> I've got Betwixt the stirrup and the ground, mercy I asked, mercy I found. All I ever had for an attribution was Epitaph for a man killed by a fall from a horse. I'd like to know who wrote it, too. Rachel >Not strictly indexing, but can anyone fill in the missing word(s) in this >quotation and tell me where it comes from: > >'Between the stirrup and the ground, something ... and something found' > >Thanks > >Margaret Binns > > > ============================ > Margaret Binns > Indexer > 20 Hangleton Manor Close > Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK > Tel: 01273 420844 > binns@hangleton.u-net.com > ============================ Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:03:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: chopped digest For no reason I can think of, I've received an Index-L digest that is abruptly chopped off in the middle of the third message. If any of you have received the April 12-13 digest in its entirety, would you mind forwarding it to me. More specifically, all the posts about the tech question for Mac users got chopped. Grrrrr! I wish I knew why this was happening. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:14:09 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: chopped digest Carol Roberts wrote: >>More specifically, all the posts about the tech question for Mac users got chopped. Grrrrr! I wish I knew why this was happening.<< Perhaps it's a MS/Win conspiracy to get rid of the Mac stuff. Conspiracy theories are rampant these days. :-) art ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Long-range nag Lori Lathrop wrote: > All -- Conference info, instructions for submitting notices to the new > Conference Notices page, and a link to the conference e-mail address are > now on the *new* ASI Web Site located at http://www.asindexing.org > The nag strikes: The long range questionnaire is still located at: http://www.well.com/user/asi/long.htm Don't forget! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:02:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Articles in titles (was French Titles) What a lively topic! We now have advocates for all formats possible: _Boys from Brazil, The_; _The Boys from Brazil_; and just _Boys from Brazil_. Each alternative has its good and bad points: the first files the leading "B" in the "Bs" but tacks on a disruptive ", The" at the end; the second keeps the leading "The" in place but creates some disruption by filing it in the "Bs"; the third avoids both problems at the cost of omitting a part of the title that is not inconsequential. Why not resolve all of these issues by keeping the leading "The" in place but filing it in the "Ts"?, which is to say, why shouldn't we sort leading articles in titles? I don't do it this way myself, but I am wanting to ask "Why shouldn't we?" Many have said this would overload the "As" and the "Ts", but how could filing words according to their spelling be considered overloading? The biggest objection I can think of is that since it hasn't been done this way, doing it so differently might be more disruptive for readers than any of the lesser disruptions mentioned above. But is _this_ really true? Consider the fact that we, or at least most of us, _do_ sort leading articles in place names, foreign and domestic: we sort "The Hague" in the "Ts" (with a _See_ ref from "Hague, The" or perhaps just "Hague"), and "Los Angeles" in the "Ls" (could anybody imagine putting it in the "As"?). Why should we treat titles differently? Noting this difference in her in-depth review of Nancy Mulvany's _Indexing Books_ (Journal of the American Society for Information Science, January 1995) Bella Hass Weinberg suggested ignoring leading "the"s in place names as well as in titles -- "If we say _the_ is ignored, let's stick to it." (p. 68) The trouble with this proposal is that in its attempt at consistency it introduces another inconsistency that could be worse -- treating leading articles in English place names differently from leading articles in foreign language place names. Nevertheless, her point about our inconsistency in sorting leading "the"s in titles and place names is a good one. Why not resolve it the other way, by _not_ ignoring leading articles in either place names or titles? Cheers! Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088