From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 26-MAR-1998 05:04:32.57 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9801B" Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:42:42 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9801B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 03:38:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Thomas P. Copley" Subject: ANNOUNCE> Winter Web Workshop Still Open Workshops on the World Wide Web (WWW) for the beginner and slightly more advanced user will be conducted monthly this winter by Arlington Courseware. Several sessions of each workshop are now open. Both are eight week distance-learning workshops conducted entirely by HTML mail.* MAKE THE LINK WORKSHOP: WORLD WIDE WEB FOR EVERYONE This workshop focuses on how to gain maximum advantage from the Web. It covers how to gain access to the WWW, linking to and interpreting URLs, distinguishing between different browsers, navigating and searching, organizing your bookmarks, designing your own home page with HTML and installing it on a server, utilizing principles of good Web design, and choosing between and using HTML editors. The cost is $20. For further information, see the Make the Link Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/links.html TUNE IN THE NET: GLOBAL REACH FOR THE 21st CENTURY This is the sequel to Make the Link, but may be taken independently by the more experienced beginner or intermediate user. It concentrates on Internet interactivity and assisting the more experienced user in making his or her Web pages into a standout interactive site. It covers prototyping Web pages with page generators and site builders, making HTML forms, using client-side image maps, customizing pages with frames and HTML 3.2, making content interactive with layers, dynamic HTML, Cascading Style Sheets (CSS), scripting with JavaScript, and utilizing push media, such as Netscape Netcaster and Microsoft Active Channels. The cost is $40. For additional information, see the Tune In the Net Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/tune.html The cost of both workshops taken together is $55. HOW TO SIGN UP Three Make the Link Workshops are scheduled for this winter: January Session January 5 - February 27 (Open enrollment period until 1/17) February Session February 2 - March 27 March Session March 2 - April 24 Three Tune In the Net Workshops are also scheduled: January Session January 5 - February 27 (Open enrollment period until 1/17) February Session February 2 - March 27 March Session March 2 - April 24 Sign up for ONE session of each workshop only unless you plan to take it more than once. To sign up, please send an e-mail message to the address: majordomo@arlington.com and in the body of the message, include the words: to subscribe to: ------------------ ---------------- subscribe links-jan the January session of Make the Link subscribe links-feb the February session of Make the Link subscribe links-mar the March session of Make the Link subscribe tune-jan the January session of Tune In the Net subscribe tune-feb the February session of Tune In the Net subscribe tune-mar the March session of Tune In the Net This will automatically put you on the mailing list for more information about each workshop, and you will receive an acknowledgment with the particulars about signing up, and unsubscribing, should you decide not to participate. If you have any difficulty with this procedure or fail to receive a response, please send e-mail to the address in the signature line. * A plain ASCII text version is also available. ________________________________________________________________ THOMAS P. COPLEY tcopley@arlington.com Tune In the Net Workshop www.bearfountain.com/arlington/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: author-invented acronyms In-Reply-To: <199801080519.AAA13099@calval-2.gsfc.nasa.gov> Elaine wrote: << For the "author invented acronyms" I used in my first post, the band-weighted spectral radiance (or BSR as it became in the text) is indexed under "spectral radiance" because it _is_ an acronym of convenience, as Kevin so aptly put it, and no one referring to the index would look it up as "BSR" >> And Susan replied: << Elaine as a reader that wasn't familiar with the term, band-weighted spectral radiance, and reading along came across BSR ...I would look first for a glossary ...not finding one I would then look in the index to see if I could find a cross reference of something to tell me what it means. Not finding it I would then have to resort to scanning the pages. I think I would be sitting there wondering why it wasn't in the index and wishing it were. Whether it's author created or created by Webster or who ever what difference does it make if the reader doesn't know what it means. I believe the indexer is hired to make the authors work easier to read and understand. It's his business however he wants to write his book. But I am a newbie maybe I will change my mind from a reader's opinion to a indexer's once I get a few under my belt....:-)>> ______________ Sorry Susan. I always forget to explain how and what I edit and then index. Each technical memo I work on has a glossary of terms/acronyms/abbreviations that I compile, as well as a list of all mathematical symbols used. Each acronym is defined first at its first usage with the definition and then the acronym in parentheses, as in: band-weighted spectral radiance (BSR). It is very poor editing if an acronym is used but never defined. The glossary, in turn would list "BSR: band-weighted spectral radiance". The individual volumes do not have their own index. A cumulative index is written (by me) every sixth volume of the series. This volume also has a cumulative glossary, symbols list, and references list, and it's cumulative from the start of the series. So, Vol. 6 would cover Vols. 1--5, Vol. 12 is for 1--11, and so on until now when I'm working on the last volume (and last cumulative index) of this series---Vol. 43, which covers Vols. 1--42. Hope this clears things up. elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:25:05 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: (no subject) I would like to see what everyone would think about a Indexer's Marketing Consortium. As most of you know my husband and I own a printing company. I can produce any kind of marketing tool on paper that is less than 11 x 17. I had thought of several things we could produce...a cookbook...calendar...but one by one disgarded those ideas and have come up with a idea for a scratch pad. The pad would be 4 1/4 x 7 with approximately 50 to 100 sheet per pad depending on the numbers of advertisers. Each sheet of the pad would have a different indexer's advertisement at the top. The inside backing card of the pad would list the names, numbers and addresses if there is room of the advertisers in the pad so when they have used the last note sheet they will still have the names and phone numbers of the indexers to store away for future reference. Ten of these pads will go to 250 publishers, editors, writers who ever would hire freelance indexers. I had originally considered doing 1000 but after discussing this idea with several indexers have decided it would be better to start of slow to see what kind of results we get. The indexer would have his ad going to 1000 publishers/editors/writers and them each seeing it 10 times. Also I was going to send the indexers the listing of the people the pads went to. So they would have gotten a 1000 name mailing list to follow up with later on marketing of their own. That alone would have been worth the original fee of $100 plus 50 contact names for the mailing list...but we all felt it would be difficult for each person..especially newbies to come up with that many names and that much money. The $100 would have covered materials and expenses I would inccur in producing and shipping the pads. No labor or up charges were involved so I was going to have to do a minimum of 20 advertisers/indexers to just break even. Then if there were more than 20 that would go to my labor for the time and work involved. 20 advertisers at $100 each would be $2000.00...I was figuring $1000.00 of that for shipping charges. I would normally charge a customer off the street some where around $5000.00 to do such a project and that would be with each sheet of the pad being the same set up. It would add another $1000.00 for them being different they have to be collated and extra typesetting and press setup. I know a lot of you don't know anything about printing so if that price sounds steep to you I suggest you call your local printer and compair the prices. Just tell them you would like to get a quote on 10,000 scratch pads, 4 1/4" x 7", 50 sheets of 20# white bond paper per pad, one color ink-black, each sheet will have a different name. Then to the quote they give you add the cost of typeup 1000 labels and shipping charges. Now considering I have decided to only start out with 250 pads. The price per pad at your local printer would be much higher because they would discount you for ordering larger quantities. So now the price to become a member of the cortium for this project would be $25.00 plus you don't have to come up with the names. One of the down falls that a lot of the indexers I had consulted was that it would be hard for people to come up with that many names or be relunctant to share them with competitors. (Which is understandable) So I had decided to put it all on the back burner and think about it some more. But through the generousity of fellow indexer and I still can't believe he is doing this I have decided to come up with the names myself. I am relunctant to tell you what wonderful thing he has done..just not sure whether he would want me to or not. So all you have to do to advertise is donate $25.00. However in order to get the listing it would cost another $25.00 to would cover the cost of long distance calls and mailings to get the contact names of those publishers that do hire freelance indexer. This won't be a shot in the dark bulk mailing. These will be targeted client that we know hire freelancers. Also if you would like to contribute 25 names you will get the listing at no charge. You can place as many ads as you like. In other words instead of just have one ad in each pad you can have, two, three, four so the publisher will see your name more often. The rate would be that many times $25.00 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:59:16 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Indexer's Marketing Consortium (IMC...indexer's invented acronym...:) I would like to see what everyone would think about a Indexer's Marketing Consortium. As most of you know my husband and I own a printing company. I can produce any kind of marketing tool on paper that is less than 11 x 17. I had thought of several things we could produce...a cookbook...calendar...but one by one disregarded those ideas and have come up with a idea for a scratch pad. The pad would be 4 1/4 x 7 with approximately 50 to 100 sheet per pad depending on the numbers of advertisers. Each sheet of the pad would have a different indexer's advertisement at the top. The inside backing card of the pad would list the names, numbers and addresses if there is room of the advertisers in the pad so when they have used the last note sheet they will still have the names and phone numbers of the indexers to store away for future reference. Ten of these pads will go to 250 publishers, editors, writers who ever would hire freelance indexers. I had originally considered doing 1000 but after discussing this idea with several indexers have decided it would be better to start of slow to see what kind of results we get. The indexer would have his ad going to 1000 publishers/editors/writers and them each seeing it 10 times. Also I was going to send the indexers the listing of the publishers the pads went to. So they would have gotten a 1000 name mailing list to follow up with later on marketing of their own. That alone would have been worth the original fee of $100 plus 50 contact names for the mailing list...but we all felt it would be difficult for each person.. especially newbies to come up with that many names and that much money. The $100 would have covered materials and expenses I would incur in producing and shipping the pads. No labor or up charges were involved so I was going to have to do a minimum of 20 advertisers/indexers to just break even. Then if there were more than 20 advertisers the surplus would go to my labor for the time and work involved. If only 20 indexers advertise I was going to fill the rest of the pad with my own advertising and that alone would have been worth the labor and time I put in it. So either way I would have been happy. 20 advertisers at $100 each would be $2000.00...I was figuring $1000.00 of that for shipping charges. I would normally charge a customer off the street some where around $5000.00 to do such a project and that would be with each sheet of the pad being the same set up. It would add another $1000.00 for them being different they have to be collated and extra typesetting and press setup. I know a lot of you don't know anything about printing so if that price sounds steep to you I suggest you call your local printer and compare the prices. Just tell them you would like to get a quote on 10,000 scratch pads, 4 1/4" x 7", 50 sheets of 20# white bond paper per pad, one color ink-black, each sheet will have a different name. Then to the quote they give you add the cost of setting up 1000 labels and shipping charges. Now considering I have decided to only start out with 250 pads. The price per pad at your local printer would be much higher because they would discount you for ordering larger quantities. One of the down falls that a lot of the indexers I had consulted was that it would be hard for people to come up with that many names or be relunctant to share them with competitors. (Which is understandable) So I had decided to put it all on the back burner and think about it some more. But through the generosity of fellow indexer (I still can't believe he is doing this) he has made it possible for me to come up with the names myself. I am relunctant to tell you what wonderful thing he has done..just not sure whether he would want me to or not. So now all you have to do to advertise is donate $25.00. You don't have to come up with any names. However it would cost each advertiser and extra $50.00 in order to get the listing of publishers the pads went to. That fee would offset the cost of long distance calls and mailings to get the contact names of those publishers that do hire freelance indexer. I am going to have to set the minimum advertisers to 30 to help offset the extra expenses. Also you can request the topic you specialize in and state you would prefer and I will do my best to include equally those publishes that meet those specifications. It would be a lot easier to do if we were doing a 1000 publishers but like I said this is just a test run. As you can see this won't be a shot in the dark bulk mailing. These will be targeted client that we know hire freelancers. Also if you would like to contribute 50 names you will get the listing at no charge. Another addition is that you can place as many ads as you like. In other words instead of just having one ad in each pad you can have, two, three, four however many you would like so the publisher will see your name more often. The rate would be that many times $25.00 single ad rate: 4 ads would be $100.00. Right now I am just trying to see who would be interested in a consortium of this type and if you like this idea for a marketing tool, if you have any other ideas and approximately how long it would be before you would be ready to participate. I am also a newbie and there are things I need to do before mailing these out in addition to coming up with the 250 names so there is no rush on this. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:20:15 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RRed0032 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium (IMC...indexer's invented acro Hi, I am just starting the USDA course and plan to take the full year to complete it, so I am not ready to participate in your venture at this time. Good luck to you! Beth Redmond ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:07:55 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Notepad advertising In-Reply-To: <199801081636.QAA13000@mail.minn.net> I am interested in joining this project. Carol Kennedy colfaxgp@minn.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:42:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Beginners' Workshop Now this is the place to ask for inputs, I'll bet. ;) Kay Schlembach and I will be running the beginning indexing workshop at the American Society of Indexers' conference in Seattle in May. We'd like some comments/suggestions from beginners (remember, there are no stupid questions) and experienced indexers on: Where you'd like to see the emphasis in the types of tasks covered (marking, editing, entering, admin stuff); Workshop structure: How much lecture vs. hands-on projects, what kinds of hands-on projects (one or two longer indexing exercises, or more smaller ones? for instance). Should we break out into small groups to do the exercises, or do them individually? If you've been to a workshop like this, or run one before, what were the most useful/popular parts? Any other ideas you might have would be very welcome. We're here to please the customer. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:37:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Air Fares to 1998 ASI Annual Conference All -- My travel agent just informed me that most of the major airlines currently have cheap round-trip air fares to Seattle. Example: Boston/Seattle, Indianapolis/Seattle, or Chicago/Seattle --> $238. Tickets must be purchased by 1/11 to get that price. BTW, altho' I now live in North Carolina, I'm still using my travel agent in Colorado because she always seems to find terrific air fares that other travel agents don't always look for. If you'll respond to me privately, I'll be happy to give you her name and "800" number. FYI ... here are a few highlights of the 1998 ASI Annual Conference, which ASI is celebrating with the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada (IASC) at Cavanaugh's Inn in Seattle, May 13-16: Bidding and Winning: Writing Successful Proposals Certification Issues (panel discussion) Creating Keywords for Online Help Database Indexing Editing Indexes Facing the Text: Content Analysis and Entry Selection Hiring and Training Legal Indexers Indexing as a Career: Development Issues Indexing CD-ROM Documents Indexing Images: New Contexts, New Frontiers Indexing in Multilingual and Multicultural Environments Indexing Online Documents Internet Searches: Cyber Indexes and CyberReality? Medical Indexing: Coming to Terms via Tradition & Technology Scandals, Missing Persons, & Murderers: An Indexer's Dream! The registration fees for the 1998 ASI Annual Conference, May 13-16, at Cavanaugh's Inn in Seattle are: General Session Presentations, 5/15 & 5/16 (received before 4/1/98): $120 - for ASI & IASC members $145 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members General Session Presentations, 5/15 & 5/16 (after 4/1/98): $150 - for ASI & IASC members $175 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members Roundtable discussions, 5/14, 5/15, & 5/16 (received before 4/1/98): $20 - for ASI & IASC members $25 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members Roundtable discussions, 5/14, 5/15, & 5/16 (received after 4/1/98): $25 - for ASI & IASC members $30 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members Full-day pre-conference workshops, 5/13 & 5/14 (rec'd before 4/1/98): $85 - for ASI & IASC members $105 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members Full-day pre-conference workshops, 5/13 & 5/14 (rec'd after 4/1/98): $105 - for ASI & IASC members $125 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members Half-day pre-conference & post-conference workshops, 5/13, 5/14, & 5/16 (received before 4/1/98): $50 - for ASI & IASC members $60 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members Half-day pre-conference & post-conference workshops, 5/13, 5/14, & 5/16 (received after 4/1/98): $60 - for ASI & IASC members $70 - for non-ASI & non-IASC members ASI's room rate at Cavanaugh's Inn is $135 per night. Also, here's what I have so far for roundtable discussions. If you know of any other potential roundtable hosts & topics, please let me know: Finding Work - Kay Kutscha Schlembach Finding Work - Janet Perlman Whither the Wilson Award? - Kate Mertex Embedded Indexing Techniques - Peg Maurer CD-ROM Indexes - Alan Walker Database Indexing - Max McMaster Marketing, Marketing, Marketing! - Kay Schlembach and Joanne Clendenen How to Negotiate with Editors - Carol Roberts Why Should Indexers Have Web Sites? - Gerry van Ravenswaay Indexing Web Documents - Gerry van Ravenswaay Web Site Design and Management - Kari Bero What Does the Salary Survey Say About Us? - Sandi Schroeder Productivity Tips: Juggling Freelancing with a Life! - Sandi Schroeder The Business of Indexing - Vicky Agee The Value of Networking - Marilyn Rowland Mentoring Relationships - Dick Evans and Ann Norcross Indexing Technical Documents - Dick Evans Indexing Computer Books - Richard Shrout Breaking the Rules! - Fred Leise Legal Indexing (for new indexers) - Brooke Graves Legal Indexing (for intermediate & advanced indexers) - Maryann Corbett Educational Resources for Indexers - Maryann Corbett If you are an ASI member, or if you have already sent me an e-mail message requesting info, conference brochures and registration forms should be in your mailbox within the next 2-3 weeks. If you are not an ASI member and want to receive a conference brochure and registration form, please e-mail me privately. Happy indexing! .... Lori *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Vice President/President-Elect, American Society of Indexers Lathrop Media Services, 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 / Phone: 704-531-0021 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Beginners' Workshop Joanne, I attended last year's beginning indexing workshop and enjoyed it. Here are a few of my thoughts: One of the challenges is that you really have two types of beginners: people who are interested but want an intro to the real basics of indexing, and people who have read books/started or finished the USDA course or some other course/worked a little with a mentor or trainer. The latter are more interested in techniques and strategies; the former in understanding the nuts and bolts. I don't know the best way to satisfy both. > Where you'd like to see the emphasis in the types of tasks covered > (marking, editing, entering, admin stuff); Text marking is one thing I never did feel I had an adequate handle on (until I had worked out my own system.) There was a separate editing workshop last year which was fabulous. I wouldn't duplicate too much if there's another editing workshop offered, but if there isn't, some tips on editing would definitely be helpful to beginners (speaking as one!) Entering really depends upon which software package one uses. You might provide a very brief overview of the main software packages, but since there may be intro workshops on those, it might not be necessary to do so. Admin stuff --I could definitely use some help here! (Unfortunately, I don't think I can make the conference this year.) > Workshop structure: How much lecture vs. hands-on projects, what kinds > of hands-on projects (one or two longer indexing exercises, or more > smaller ones? for instance). Should we break out into small groups to > do the exercises, or do them individually? How about giving two sets of exercises -- one for total beginners, the other for those who know the real basics -- and working them individually? Then gather in two groups to discuss the results? I think hands-on is really helpful and important. Do make sure people know there will be homework before they sign up, though. I ended up searching for a store to buy index cards and highlighters! I did find the exercises, and the discussion about them, very helpful. Good luck! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:49:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Yumin Jiang Subject: USDA course In-Reply-To: <199801081928.OAA29914@cornell.edu> Hello indexers, I am a new subscriber to this mailing list; actually today is my second day on the list. I noticed a couple of messages mentioning a USDA course which I haven't heard about before. Could someone please tell me in personal email about the course and where I could find more information about it? Thank you very much for your help. Sincerely, Yumin Jiang ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne M Bouvier Subject: Freelance Abstracting All, Hello, I am new to the list and have a question. I was wondering how much freelance abstracters make per abstract. A recent position annoncement caught my eye and I though I would apply. The employer would like a suggested salary sent with the resume. If anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Anne M. Bouvier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:01:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <199801081636.IAA16861@powergrid.electriciti.com> I would greatly prefer not to see such self-marketing on the list. I trust those interested in this scheme communicate amongst themselves. Otherwise, it is consider spam, to me. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:08:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: (no subject) Pam, Do you consider the chat posting I have made as spamming? They are beneficial to all indexer as well as the marketing "scheme". I would think spamming would have to do with my advertising my business or soliciting a product for profit. I am actually offering my backbone here to help other indexers. I can understand you thinking I am trying to make a profit out of this but like I said in my post if you read it ...call you local printer and see if he will do it at that rate. If you would like to do this and hire and printer that has nothing to do with it go ahead. But it can't be done at these rates. There is no printer in the USA that will donate litterly several 100 hours of his own time and not charge for it. Of course I am get benefit out of it or I wouldn't do it...but it is exposure for my indexing career and why not let other people I have come to know get the same exposure it benefits them in no way that they can and at the same time benefits me exactly the same way. It profits all of us equally and I am the one doing all the work. If you want to do I would be glad to had it over to you and see if you would... and I would like to know who else on this list don't appreciate it because if there are others that think the same way...I certainly wouldn't want to impose my generosity on anyone that doesn't want it. Susan I hope this reads right I don't think I want to read it again. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:15:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret Stevenson Subject: Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <199801082315.SAA08045@camel10.mindspring.com> I think it a generous offer, and am strongly considering it. Meg At 06:08 PM 1/8/98 EST, you wrote: >Pam, > >Do you consider the chat posting I have made as spamming? They are beneficial >to all indexer as well as the marketing "scheme". I would think spamming would >have to do with my advertising my business or soliciting a product for profit. >I am actually offering my backbone here to help other indexers. I can >understand you thinking I am trying to make a profit out of this but like I >said in my post if you read it ...call you local printer and see if he will do >it at that rate. If you would like to do this and hire and printer that has >nothing to do with it go ahead. But it can't be done at these rates. There is >no printer in the USA that will donate litterly several 100 hours of his own >time and not charge for it. Of course I am get benefit out of it or I wouldn't >do it...but it is exposure for my indexing career and why not let other people >I have come to know get the same exposure it benefits them in no way that they >can and at the same time benefits me exactly the same way. It profits all of >us equally and I am the one doing all the work. If you want to do I would be >glad to had it over to you and see if you would... and I would like to know >who else on this list don't appreciate it because if there are others that >think the same way...I certainly wouldn't want to impose my generosity on >anyone that doesn't want it. > >Susan > >I hope this reads right I don't think I want to read it again. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:03:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Dave Parker (ICCD) (by way of Martha Osgood)" Subject: Re: How do you define success? > -----Original Message----- > From: Martha Osgood [mailto:osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu] > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 1998 1:20 PM > To: Memb-L > Subject: How do you define success? > > > Hi folks. How do you as a member of a membership committee define success? > > Just counting numbers isn't good enough. I could raise our numbers > willy-nilly by pressuring/pushing more folks to sign the membership book. > But they would not stay, would eventually resent the pressure, would not > contribute to the community. > > A corollary question is: what are your goals. Not your mission statement, > but your goals. > To grow the congregation? > To create an atmosphere of welcome? > To ... what? > > What say you. > > Martha > Eugene, OR (209 exactly) > We, in Woodinville, WA, are currently working on similar issues. We are in the process of acquiring land to build our own building (currently we rent). As part of doing this it is beneficial to grow our congregation, but we cannot look at adding people because we need money. An approach like that is disingenuous and doomed to failure. What I personally look for is something that cannot really be measured but is easy to see, and that is the health and liveliness of our community. If new people that approach the church quickly connect with others and really enjoy being part of our community, if the long standing members (we are only 6 years old at this point) regularly participate in activities and committees, then I would say we are doing good. Our (the Membership Committee's) approach consists of breaking down the relationship process into four parts: 1) Advertising and PR. How do we get people in the door? 2) Recruitment: How to get people to keep coming back and eventually want to sign the membership book. 3) Integration: How do we get people really connected in the community? 4) Retention: How do we prevent burnout and maintain happiness within the congregation. Numbers 2 and 3 are really sort of simultaneous and inter-related. When we first decided to look at membership this way, we listed all of the things we do for each area, and it became evident where our strengths and weaknesses were. Since then, we have been working to balance our efforts, and it seems to be paying off. Dave Parker Membership Chair Woodinville Unitarian Universalist Church Woodinville, WA http://www.premier1.net/~bhull/wuuc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:15:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: not spam In-Reply-To: <199801082249.OAA29244@darkwing.uoregon.edu> >I would greatly prefer not to see such self-marketing on the list. I trust >those interested in this scheme communicate amongst themselves. Otherwise, >it is consider spam, to me. >Pam Rider Hi Pam - I think the idea of gathering together to create a list of publishers who use freelance indexers is a VERY beneficial idea to almost all indexers. The scratch pad idea is quite creative, too. I'm excited by the possibilities. Those who wish to participate will do so offlist, but the initial idea needs to get out so the folks who might want to take part can be included. Let's give Susan a little more time, and encourage accurate subject lines so those who are not interested can delete without having to read. Martha Back Words Indexing osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:19:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexserv Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: (no subject) In a message dated 1/8/98 10:51:19 PM, you wrote: <> I think a quick re-read of the original message is in order. In my opinion, Susan came up with a good marketing idea that could, if we want it to, include some of us. I fail to see how any monetary gain could come to her from us, except in the sense of reaping benefits from clients who provide indexing work to her and to who ever wants to include themselves. To those of us that could use another client, it is a good thing. (Thank you, Martha Stewart) :-) I agree, though...spamming is a bad and evil thing...I just don't think it is present in this case. Walking cheerfully next to Pam, Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:53:50 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: spam Pam, I have to agree with everyone else who has posted so far. She has come up a with a creative and generous marketing idea and is offering to include us for a very low fee. All of us who freelance in publishing must know how much time, money and effort can go into the simplest of things. Perhaps you only read the start of the message and didn't read all of it, leading to this misunderstanding. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:20:07 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexserv Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Air Fares to 1998 ASI Annual Conference Lori, Could I have the name and number of your travel agent? Thanks! Tim Griffin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:22:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexserv Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Air Fares to 1998 ASI Annual Conference-OOPS! All-Sorry! Didn't mean to respond to the list! :-( My apologies, Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:52:34 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BooksEnd Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Newbie to ASI conf I have completed the USDA indexing classes and am planning to attend the ASI 1998 Conference. Any suggestions on where to start for sessions are welcome. I just had my 3rd child and am looking for a 5 year projection into steady freelance indexing. Does anyone attend the conference yearly ? Are mentors available long distance ? Thanks!!!!!!!!! Annette BooksEnd@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 02:22:37 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: advice for sticky client situation?-sort of long Folks, I'm being revisted by the index from hell. After delivering an index for a 1400 page book in a record (for me, at least) 11 days, the single complaint made to me was that it was too short. Truth be told, if I'd filled all the space they'd wanted me to fill, the index would have been a pile of worthless gobbledygook with way too many entries. But I did try expanding the index as much as possible. Then I got a call saying that the index had been held at printers due to need to rewrite. This was the book from hell for the publisher. Could I reindex the last 2/3 of the book. Yes I could, for a nice fee. While reindexing and checking against their file, I found over 100 entries dropped somehow in a 65-page spread, pages 25 to 85 (and I was explicit in the page numbers when I called). I called, asked if I should add them back in. I was told yes. Then I got a call today asking me if I'd added entries back. I reminded my contact of our conversation. She asked me didn't I understand that I wasn't to touch entries before Chapter 9. I told her I wouldn't have if I'd been told not to, that I was terribly sorry, if I'd known that those were the instructions, I wouldn't have. That we'd had the conversation in which I'd asked her about these entries, she'd said yes, put them back in... and so on. The bottom line is, I feel like my work is being discredited. She'd said she accepted responsibility for this, BUT... then questions like wasn't I used to entries being dropped, etc. Any advice on how to deal with this client (who, by the way, sends me about 80% of my work). I don't want to alienate the person assigning me work by saying something like, "Look, you failed to give me instructions to start saying don't touch this stuff. You then counteracted these ungiven instructions by telling me to add in entries when I queried you. This is not my fault. This is yours." On the other hand, I did a good job and I don't want people thinking I did a sloppy one, failed to follow instructions, etc. Any suggestions on how to deal with this client would be greatly appreciated. I'm doing another index for them right now. I've done many for them in the past few years with no complaints whatsoever. This seems to be the only one with problems. Am I overreacting, do you think? Thanks in advance, a mildly paranoid about losing my income Leslie Frank FrankWords Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 07:39:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: not spam In-Reply-To: <199801090020.TAA10411@sequoia.together.net> I didn't view Susan's idea as a spam at all. I think it's a great idea, I'm seriously considering it, and I would never have known about it if she didn't post it to the list. I agree that once it's been settled and everyone who wants to know about it knows, that it can be taken off list, but really, this is not what I call spamming. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: advice for sticky client situation?-sort of long In-Reply-To: <199801090723.CAA04181@sequoia.together.net> Leslie, I am having empathy anxiety for you over that one. I think what might be the kicker was the "aren't you used to . . ." implying you aren't experienced. When something like this is happening to me, I tend to take it extremely personally and then I generalize, like you have, out into, OH EVERYONE will now think I'm useless and NO ONE will ever hire me again, and in fact, I AM useless, etc., etc. And another aspect is the fact that you worked incredibly hard to do a good job, and you did a good job, and not only was that not acknowledged, but instead was criticized. One thing we don't get as indexers, I'm finding, is much "good job" feedback. And no matter how healthy our egos, we need that sometimes. In actual fact, the worst I've imagined has never happened, and even the lesser evils have never happened. I have lost one client who I think was annoyed with me (through no fault of my own, of course :-)), but she didn't call every other publisher in the LMP and tell them not to hire me because I'm useless. And all the other production managers at that publisher hire me regularly. She didn't even tell her co-workers how useless I am. When it's happening to someone else, and I'm not emotionally or professionally at risk, I try to think of all the big picture. First, you're dealing with another human who could have all kinds of agendas going on. Maybe she's been told recently how useless she is and is having all kinds of fears of looking bad. Maybe she's some kind of pathological nasty person who just likes to make people feel bad. Maybe she just had a miscarriage. Maybe her mother just got diagnosed with cancer. Or maybe she's right, but as she never gave you clear instructions, it's not your fault. Or maybe, god forbid bite your tongue, she did give you clear instructions and you misunderstood. (Most unlikely, it seems to me, but I'm trying to cover all the bases.) And even if that were true, there are all kinds of other reasons why that could happen, none of which means you're useless and will never do a good job again or get hired again. I think what might work best is to say you're sorry this project didn't seem to go as well as the others and that you'll try to make sure communication is as good on future projects as it has been on past ones. And then forget it and move on. DON'T aplolgize for anything personally. There's a difference between being sorry about the project and being sorry for being useless. You are not useless, so don't apologize for that. By the way, I recently lost the client that was providing me 75% of my indexing income as they got absorbed by another company. This had led to a sharp and scary drop off of busioess, but I've been doing a lot of marketing and things are slowly picking back up. Two lessons there: one, don't but most of your eggs in one company, and two, even if you do, and that company goes away for whatever reason, there are plenty of other companies out there who don't know you're useless ;-) and will be happy to hire you. Panicking is the worst thing to do no matter the crisis. Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:36:49 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: not spam In-Reply-To: <199801091243.EAA06323@powergrid.electriciti.com> I agree that the initial posting was not spamming and never stated that. I said postings after participants let Susan know they are interested would be considered spamming. This is a private project and should be handled privately. Please consider people who pay for their time online--including the time to filter out CHAT topics. I am subscribed to Indexing-L not Marketing Indexing-L. We do not discuss rate to avoid antitrust problems. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:33:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Indexer's Marketing Consortium - Is it Spamming? In a message dated 1/9/98 7:34:00 AM Central Standard Time, prider@electriciti.com writes: << Self-serving promotion on a professional list is off-putting to me and contrary to the spirit of the past 5 years or so. >> How can you considered this as ONLY self-serving? A consortium's definition according to Webster: In that light everything that is posted to INDEX-L is self-serving. Are you trying to tell me that we should not use the list to help one another. To come up with ideas that will help everyone especially help newbies get their feet on the ground. There is no way that anyone is going to network with a newbie if they don't personally know them and have examined there work. There is no way any of you old timers are going to refer client to them because you don't know them or their work. A newbie is going to have to market themselves hard and heavy to get that first job. And if offering ideas that can make that task less of a hassell, less expensive. I just don't see how this can be self serving. Group serving is not self serving. By the way, what is the spirit of list? Is it not to help one another as a group? Pam I know you sent this letter to me privately but it effects us as a whole if this is the way a lot people think everyone should know about it. You originally cricitised this publically and it should be ironed out publically. I just get soo tired of this constant hassell and bickery from some people on the list. They think they or superior to anyone else and can dictate what is best for everyone. They care nothing for other peoples feelings. It seems I am just getting over one can a worms and then end up right back in another. It is like a visious vendeta to see who can blast who the best. To me that is not the kind of spirit I want to participate in. Ok Pam it's off the list and so am I. I will not subject myself to this constant bickery and seemingly hated of people where it should be a loving and caring atmosphere. Is this the kind of spirit you are talking about? Do you enjoy the heated battles so you just want to keep them going? Since I have only heard a few response in my defense (to those people I would like to say, "Thank you" and I well thank each of you personally as soon as I can) I can only assume that all those that didn't responsed think the same way that you do. To those that haven't read these newest can of worm I am not including you. Bye everyone and I hope you enjoy this "Spirit" that most everyone seems to want to keep sanctified. I don't think I will proceed with this "scheme"...the last thing in the world I would want is for someone to think I am a scheming, get rich quick selfish self-promotionist...who care nothing of anyone but myself. I don't even want you to think that Pam let alone anyone else. So I retract my idea of a consortium...just forget the whole idea. I can do this by myself without you are anyone else....hmm sounds like I just contridicted myself but not really. I may look like a self-promotionist but that is not me that is what you made me. Have you heard the old say: "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth?" Did you ever wonder why? It might just bite you. I am about as sincerely sorry as anyone could possibly be to expose the innocent to this continue thread of hostility...but I can assure you this is the end of it. I am unsubscribing to Index-L and I am blocking Pam from E- mailing me. So there shouldn't be any further discussions. bye all Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:56:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: not spam At 05:36 AM 1/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >I agree that the initial posting was not spamming and never stated that. I >said postings after participants let Susan know they are interested would >be considered spamming. This is a private project and should be handled >privately. Please consider people who pay for their time online--including >the time to filter out CHAT topics. > This is beginning to remind me of one of Murphy's laws: No good deed goes unpunished. I agree that follow ups and correspondence should be conducted offline, but the project itself is very much of public interest. There was no shortage of interest when I brought up the topic of an indexers' co-op a while back and I see Susan's project as being very similar: indexers cooperatively helping indexers. Why do anything to discourage someone willing to make the effort? I'm sure that after the initial flurry of replies to the list that folks will carry on offline and only post periodic updates. I, for one, plan to participate and look forward to hearing how things are going. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:58:24 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium - Is it Spamming? In-Reply-To: <199801091436.GAA09065@powergrid.electriciti.com> I have no problem with what I wrote being read by others. I have genuine and abiding problems with someone who would post my private message without my permission. That act demonstrates thoughlessness. Please continue your marketing discussions off-list. Clearly. Your judgement and values are not shared by all. I would have preferred sending this privately, but it probably would have been sent to the list, anyway. PLEASE read my original message. I said FURTHER discussion would be considered spamming by me. I am not so egotistic to believe that my definition applies to all others. Please read my original message and those that posit further discussion should be off list. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:11:21 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Chats update ICQ & AOL Sorry, I know Pam asked me not to mention anything about the chats on list. But I am too tired and upset to reply to everyone that has shown interest in the chat. I have sent letters to everyone that was on my "Chat Log Mailing List" but there are quit a few others that I don't have the E-mail addresses for or do have them but it would take a lot of time to go through my stored mail to hunt them up. I won't be participating in the chats anymore. ICQ or AOL. The AOL is there for anyone that wants to use it. I always thought I was head strong, resilient to any obstacles and can usually find solution to most problems. I guess the bottom like is this takes the cake. I feel awful...I feel like I am running out on everyone...especially those that have said such wonderful things....but I think I just didn't know myself very well. I am vulnerable and destructible after all. I'm sorry I just don't want to say anything else...I want to forget about all of it. Pam you have got to be the awfulest person I have ever encountered. Maybe I have just lead a sheltered life. I didn't realize there were really people out there like you. I am just glad I am not one of them. bye again Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:16:36 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Correcting the "MAIL TO" problem Please everyone calm down. Susan, your idea of pads that place indexers right in front of folks that hire them is a great idea, and where else can you reach a large group of indexers but on Index-L. You've also made great strides in getting all of us to chat more frequently by setting up chat rooms. I don't think unsubscribing to the list is entirely the answer. I think the answer is having folks watch where their reply is being sent to. I think this is what Pam's post meant. ****When one is replying to a message posted on Index-L, DO NOT blindly hit the reply button, thinking that your email message is going to the poster. It's not! It's going straight back to the sender, which is the server that mails out the messages to everyone on Index-L. So, to save everyone from continually making this mistake, let me take the time to remind y'all you can fix this. Send the following message to the LISTSERV (no subject): **CUT AND PASTE OR COPY THIS INTO THE "MAIL TO:" POSITION!!!!!*** LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Then for the message: Set IETFhdr. That's it. When you hit the reply button, the _original poster's_ address should appear in the "mail to" spot, and should you need to post to index-l, it will take some effort as you will need to type it in, or click it in, or whatever. Okay? Let peace be restored. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:25:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexlady Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Spam - NOT! Greetings to all! Since this has become a rather public issue, I would like to be very public, as well. I very much appreciate what Susan developed to help those who wish to participate. It was very similiar in nature to what Dick brought up a few weeks (months?) ago. When someone has poured their heart out to help others, the way Susan has, I think we should recognize the spirit in which it was done. In case we should forget, Susan was also instrumental in pulling us together for AOL and ICQ chats. This is not evidence of a self-serving person. She has devoted her time and energy to helping others on this list, and I for one have benefited greatly. <> I would greatly prefer not to see such self-marketing on the list. I trust those interested in this scheme communicate amongst themselves. Otherwise, it is consider spam, to me. <> Folks, this was the entire e-mail that I received, and I interpreted it to be that Pam felt Susan was spamming. <> I agree that the initial posting was not spamming and never stated that. I said postings after participants let Susan know they are interested would be considered spamming. <> I think Pam's INTENT is revealed in her following email. Unfortunately, for all of us, her INTENT was not STATED in her first email. I truly wish Pam had sent the INTENT first. We still might have Susan among us, as I think everyone agrees with Pam about it being continued off-list once the initial announcements have been made. Indexing is a specialized form of writing, and perhaps if we all improve our writing and communication skills we will be able to more clearly express our intent with our first emails. Communication is a 2-way street...both the sender AND the receiver need to be considered. Our indexes will also benefit. Susan...PLEASE COME BACK. We...I...need you. Dawn Spencer indexlady@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:38:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BVLDais Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: not spam I also think Susan's idea is a good one...and a generous offer. I am also considering it...if it's a go, I want to be in it! Just one question! What is "spamming"? I've actually never heard the term! Virginia A. Dais BVLDais@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:33:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Herr Hallinger Organization: Herr's Indexing Service Subject: Vermont meeting Just a reminder that the Vermont group will be meeting on Saturday, January 17th for lunch at the Lobster Pot Restaurant on the Barre-Montpelier Road. Anyone with an interest indexing is welcomed to join us. I have had a pretty good response so far, with people hoping to make the trip from Massachusetts, New York, and the far corners of Vermont. I hope we get some better weather! We are having more rain and ice today, along with flickering lights. Linda Hallinger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:41:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium - Is it Spamming? In-Reply-To: <199801091435.GAA17926@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> Susan, Please don't let Pam's dislike of your excellent and generous idea chase you off the list! You've been hassled here unjustly more than once (I remember the sniping that occured about your ICQ posts, too) and I truly understand why you'd want to just throw your hands up and walk away in disgust. But please, please don't do that. Count me in as one of those who find your ideas and activities here extremely valuable!!!! Just ignore those who have nothing better to do than attack the results of your enthusiasm and genuine caring for your fellow indexers and newbies. I deplore that Pam has twice characterized your marketing consortium as a "scheme", as if it were some fly-by-night scam. Trust me, many of us experienced indexers truly find your activities here very worthwhile. You are a jewel in the indexing community and should be embraced, not attacked. Pam's dislike of your original post is NOT at all representative of the Index-L membership. Most of us who post here are indeed supportive and caring. So, while I'm sure you found Pam's attitude quite irritating (I know I would), please do not let it determine whether you remain on the list or govern your activities here. She is only ONE person here. Even though you may be a "newbie", I truly admire you for the things you've done to benefit the indexing community. And I am appalled that you are undergoing cyberabuse for it. Index-L occasionally goes through paroxysms of querelousness and crankiness and, unfortunately, twice you've been the innocent target. As a veteran of a few donnybrooks here, I'm asking you to just don your asbestos panties and hang in here with us! And, as the recipient of an incredible outpouring of generosity and caring here (more than once), I can assure you that the majority of Indexellers are good people who want you to stay. In your corner, Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:12:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium -Enough is enough Children, children.... Susan is no longer on the list, so posting to the list serves to further purpose. For future reference, proper nettiquette dictates that any dispute about either the appropriateness of a thread or anyone feeling attacked and/or persecuted by members of the list should be referred to the MODERATOR. That's what she's there for. It is not appropriate for any individual member to determine what is or is not relevant subject matter (and in this case, that seems to be an open issue), but it is certainly not appropriate for any list member to respond by flaming. That's why we have a moderator. I think we've all seen enough ugliness for one day. Can we put an end to this? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:30:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: not spam -Reply Spamming is unsolicited, usually commercial, and frequently malicious emails sent repeatedly to someone's email address. I think the term was originally a vague Monty Python reference back when the Net consisted of only a few hundred computer geeks (no offense intended-- some of my best friends are computer geeks!). Originally, it was sort of a malicious prank-- someone would send 200 copies of the same email to someone's address and crash their In Box, or at least force them to spend a lot of money with their service provider sorting through and deleting all of the messages. The term has generally been expanded to include the dubious practice of some extraordinarily misguided marketing firms, who have latched onto the technique and occasionally flood mailboxes with unsolicited advertising for their services-- sort of like electronic junk mail. An interesting aside, some states are starting to take steps to make this an actionable offense, allowing the recipient to sue the sender for, say, $10 per message if they meet certain criteria. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:27:19 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: (no subject) I have to agree with Susan here. I don't think this is spam. Suellen On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:08:13 EST Bookindexr writes: >Pam, > >Do you consider the chat posting I have made as spamming? They are >beneficial >to all indexer as well as the marketing "scheme". I would think >spamming would >have to do with my advertising my business or soliciting a product for >profit. >I am actually offering my backbone here to help other indexers. I can >understand you thinking I am trying to make a profit out of this but >like I >said in my post if you read it ...call you local printer and see if he >will do >it at that rate. If you would like to do this and hire and printer >that has >nothing to do with it go ahead. But it can't be done at these rates. >There is >no printer in the USA that will donate litterly several 100 hours of >his own >time and not charge for it. Of course I am get benefit out of it or I >wouldn't >do it...but it is exposure for my indexing career and why not let >other people >I have come to know get the same exposure it benefits them in no way >that they >can and at the same time benefits me exactly the same way. It profits >all of >us equally and I am the one doing all the work. If you want to do I >would be >glad to had it over to you and see if you would... and I would like to >know >who else on this list don't appreciate it because if there are others >that >think the same way...I certainly wouldn't want to impose my generosity >on >anyone that doesn't want it. > >Susan > >I hope this reads right I don't think I want to read it again. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:56:55 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: not spam Does this mean we can't discuss marketing on INDEX-L? Suellen On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:36:49 -0800 Pam Rider writes: >I agree that the initial posting was not spamming and never stated >that. I >said postings after participants let Susan know they are interested >would >be considered spamming. This is a private project and should be >handled >privately. Please consider people who pay for their time >online--including >the time to filter out CHAT topics. > >I am subscribed to Indexing-L not Marketing Indexing-L. We do not >discuss >rate to avoid antitrust problems. >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:10:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium - Is it Spamming? In-Reply-To: <199801091700.JAA15663@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 06:58 AM 1/9/98 -0800, Pam wrote: >I have no problem with what I wrote being read by others. I have genuine >and abiding problems with someone who would post my private message without >my permission. I would agree, except that you obviously showed "genuine and abiding problems" with Susan BEFORE she posted excerpts from your message. Otherwise, she wouldn't have had a reason to have done that (aside from whether it was right for her to do so). >That act demonstrates thoughlessness. Oh, puhleeeeze!!! Thoughtlessness? And what you did isn't? Did you ever think about the fact that some of us truly appreciated Susan's posts and activities before you attacked her and drove her off the list? Because of *your* thoughtlessness, we've lost an extremely valuable member of the list AND the benefit of her various activities on the behalf of the indexing community! >Please continue your marketing >discussions off-list. Not all of us share your aversion to this, Pam. Your mailreader should have a function called "Delete". Have you ever considered using it vs. imposing your desires on 850 people? I am really sick and tired of being on lists where one individual tries to restrict what is being posted to their narrow tastes and thus limit what I personally get out of the list because they're too lazy to delete what they don't want to read or for some reason won't find a flat-rate provider. Your rights end where mine and others' begin. >PLEASE read my original message. I said FURTHER discussion would be >considered spamming by me. I am not so egotistic to believe that my >definition applies to all others. Please read my original message and those >that posit further discussion should be off list. OK. Here's your original post: <> Perhaps if you had written your last sentence in clearer English, it would have been understood as you intended it. Even so, your last sentence indicates that your problem with such messages is personal and is therefore solvable by personal methods, i.e., the Delete function. However, it's a bit hard to swallow your admonition to US to read YOUR messages when, by the contents of your message, it is obvious that you did not fully read Susan's original message. "Self-marketing"? "Scheme" (implying a fly-by-night scam)? These are loaded, inaccurate characterizations of Susan's idea in a paragraph ending with a garbled sentence that includes the word "spam". I'm being kind when I say that you did not fully read Susan's message because the alternative would be that you have a difficulty in reading comprehension (something I wouldn't want to accuse you, a fellow indexer, of having). >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth Yeah. Right. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:32:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: not spam At 12:56 PM 1/9/1998 EST, Suellen Kasoff wrote: >Does this mean we can't discuss marketing on INDEX-L? Suellen In response to Pam, who wrote, >>I am subscribed to Indexing-L not Marketing Indexing-L. We do not >>discuss rate to avoid antitrust problems. Suellen, this list has been an invaluable resource for marketing tips, and I can't imagine why anybody would be offended or annoyed at these discussions. In fact, marketing is one of the important reasons many of us subscribe! I believe Pam is mistaken regarding rates. We can--and do--discuss rates, with no fear of antitrust problems. Antitrust laws say we may not SET rates in accordance with some group agreement--in other words, we can't uniformly impose a $5-per-page rate on all our clients without acting in opposition to free trade (which is what the antitrust statutes are all about). There is absolutely no prohibition regarding discussing your rates here (unless the listowner has made such a rule), or on the telephone with another indexer, or in a KEYWORDS article. I've been out of reach for a couple of days and was very distressed to see this thread develop as it has. I hope Susan is still reading messages. Believe me, no immediate on-list response doesn't indicate that a person is opposed to your excellent and creative idea...it could mean anything (like, you're out of town, or you have no opinion, or you accidentally deleted the original message, or who-knows-what). I hope Pam can rethink her assertion that marketing messages are "spam" or "schemes" (in the negative sense). I believe these ideas deserve an airing here, and that they are a vital part of the list traffic. Follow-up should, perhaps, be done via private email, but I'm ardently in favor of sharing good ideas right here on the list. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:38:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: ooops? In-Reply-To: <199801090020.QAA25303@darkwing.uoregon.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Martha Osgood [mailto:osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu] > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 1998 1:20 PM > To: Memb-L > Subject: How do you define membership committee success? Good grief. How did this post to another list get onto this list? This is SO weird! I assume GIGO (garbage in {therefore} garbage out), but have not a clue how... Please excuse... Martha jaw dropping to the floor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:29:11 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Chats update ICQ & AOL In-Reply-To: <199801091710.JAA14624@powergrid.electriciti.com> I never said Chats material should not be posted to the list. Consider calming down and reading my opinion with the same sensitivity you want for yours. Notices are one thing, ongoing discussions are another. Most universities hosting lists such as index-l prohibit "commercial usage." Naturally, it is loosely interpreted, but conducting an actual marketing endeavor through a list hosted by a university is generally not allowed on other lists I subscribe to. Gathering names for private off-list discussions does NOT fit into this. I was swamped with work and did not have the time to read the earlier discussions of your chat projecst, which sound admirable. I am on another list with a CHAT channel that is unending. I only requested consideration and never said ANYTHING should not be posted to the list. Sorry that you find consideration for others so burdensome. I succinctly stated my druthers. I trust you accept views other than your own in the other parts of your life. Mine would be dull without such variety, which I treasure and continually learn from. I continue to be aghast that you would post a private communication to the list. I am certain it was lack of judgment and not ill will. I am sorry you are on hiatus from the list and do not agree with those who have written to me that your sudden departure just indicated immaturity and a skin too thin for collegial interchange. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:47:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium (IMC...indexer's invented acronym...:) I am also interested in the notepad advertising. Please keep me posted. I could probably come up with 25 names. I would want to include publishers of general interest books. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing indexer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:03:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium - Is it Spamming? In-Reply-To: <199801091814.AA01275@world.std.com> Well put, Lynn. It's unfortunate and sad that we lost Susan because she obviously had a lot to contribute to this group. We're all in this together and the purpose of Index-L is for mutual support. I do not always find every single message useful (for example, technical questions about indexing software that I don't own), but I just skip over those. The messages that are relevant to my situation and the opportunity to pick the brains of more experienced indexers when I have a problem is worth using the Delete button even 100 times a day. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:15:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Chats update ICQ & AOL In a message dated 98-01-09 14:00:40 EST, you write: << I am sorry you are on hiatus from the list and do not agree with those who have written to me that your sudden departure just indicated immaturity and a skin too thin for collegial interchange. >> Pam, No one has said anything like this on the list, at least that I've read. And if they've sent it to you privately, that's where you should have kept it. This is one of the nastiest jabs I've seen you post. You try to hide behind comments like "I'm sorry you are on hiatus" and attribute the jab to others who have not posted such things publicly, but you have made certain that the jab is public. If you are truly trying to walk peacefully, then I suggest you reread anything you write before you post. You certainly do not appear to be walking peacefully in this venue. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:55:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: apology I really should have contacted the listowner in this matter. I should also have not made typos and should have read my original posting more clearly. I am sorry there are hurt feelings. If my characterizationss are egregious I put them out and am willing to stand by them without the private namecalling I am now subjected to. Such behavior only reflects on the namecallers. I appreciate the private support I have received. Thank-you. Marketing is one thing--organizing a commercial project is another. I continue to be put off by such behavior on a professional, collegial list hosted by an educational institution. All my best wishes to persons joining together amongst themselves to market their talents. I continue to find that inappropriate for this list. I apologize if my opinion is not worthy. It is not binding beyond myself. I thought I was in a safe place where druthers could be stated (and should have been better and more clearly done). Please, please, please continue this discussion and the private hate mails, if trashing me makes you feel better. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:15:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: flaming flames OK folks, Please recall that it is very easy to offend and take offense in an e-mail forum. Flames are certainly an apt metaphor for this sort of thing..so please, please practice restraint in sending and responding to messages. To quote my own words: If possible, try not to respond to postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the person personally. ^^^^^^^^^^ If any of you still need to vent..take it off-list or feel free to talk to me. So...everyone take a deep breath and let us return to our reasonable and quite wonderful discussion mode. Charlotte Skuster Index-l Moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:28:47 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Chats update ICQ & AOL In-Reply-To: <199801091710.JAA11073@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 10:11 AM 1/9/98 EST, Susan wrote: >Sorry, > >I know Pam asked me not to mention anything about the chats on list. Susan, PAM DOES NOT RUN THIS LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Thank goodness!!!!) Why am I posting so much about this when typing so much hurts my hand? Because I am really torqued about this!!!! [And if anyone complains about my keeping this going, too bad. A former listmember was hounded from the list here and she's hurt. What makes this even more outrageous is that she is a "newbie" and is now isolated from the one online source of professional support before she's even had a chance to establish herself!!!!! Has anyone who's telling us to quiet down thought about that aspect of this?] >But I am >too tired and upset to reply to everyone that has shown interest in the chat. I'm one of those who dashed a message off to you privately, begging you not to end your participation in the chats. But, what I'm about to say needs to be said here where Ms. Walking Cheerfully (Hah!) and others who engage in electronic drivebys can hear it. PAM: you need to hear (yes, publicly in the venue where you've done things like this before) just what kind of damage you've done! > I always thought I was head strong, resilient >to any obstacles and can usually find solution to most problems. I guess the >bottom like is this takes the cake. > >I feel awful...I feel like I am running out on everyone...especially those >that have said such wonderful things....but I think I just didn't know myself >very well. I am vulnerable and destructible after all. I'm sorry I just don't >want to say anything else...I want to forget about all of it. There is nothing abnormal about what you're feeling and here's a hug from someone who's been there and felt that. {{{Susan}}}} There is something especially painful about being treated so abysmally on a mailing list. I don't know what it is, but having been there, it hurts unexpectedly more than you would expect in a "faceless" setting. Trust me, I was flamed on a list, by the "moderator" (no less) who thought the list was his feudal fiefdom, and I was absolutely devastated, despite the huge amount of support I received from listmembers. (Ironically, the list was supposedly devoted to chronic pain.) There is something about being attacked on a mailing list that causes way more pain than it should seem to. (Maybe some cyber-psychologist will come up with the answer.) So, if you have to go (as I did, being the moderator kicked me off the list), let me do for you what some members of the pain (hah!) list did for me. They sent me copies of messages supporting me (until the moderator kicked those who posted in support off the list too and the messages ended) and it helped a lot, even though it continued to remind me of the experience. Just let me know. I won't mislead you. You may always remember this experience with pain (as I remember the PAINful-L experience years later to this day). It probably would have been easier had I been allowed to resubscribe to PAINful-L, however Torquemada, the listowner, monitored subscriptions and would kick me off whenever he found me lurking. There's a potential key to recovering from this: staying on the list if possible. If you come back or stay, you will be able to build up an offsetting mass of positive experiences here to counter the pain. Heck, I've had unpleasant experiences here, including with Walking Cheerfully over the Earth(lings). But my asbestos underwear serves me fine and enables me to continue to count Index-L as my favorite list (out of the many I subscribe to). Believe me, it's not you who comes out looking ...ahem... -challenged in this, despite Ms. Stomping Cheerfully's attempt to cast you in a negative light. You are NOT the first victim of Ms. Driveby Cheerfully and won't be the last. Wishing you the best, Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:04:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: emillen@MCP.COM Subject: suggestion Perhaps INDEX-L could implement subject headings, to help list members screen out messages they're not interested in and thus prevent flames and hurt feelings? Another mailing list I subscribe to has implemented this with great success. Basically, the list owner and members agree to post messages under specific subject headings... for example abstracting chat marketing publishing software technique When you post your message to the list, you include the subject heading as the first word of your subject line. For example, software: question about macrex or marketing: indexing co-ops Other list members would know up front what the message pertains to and can more easily screen the incoming mail. (My mail program will let me create "rules" to sort out mail with certain words in the subject line.) I know very little about LISTSERV software, but I know that my other mailing list is set up so that I can also choose which subject headings I receive. In other words, you could set up your subscription so that you receive only messages pertaining to software/technique and screen out all messages about marketing. It's discouraging to see a professional list like this one deteriorate into flame wars. Just a suggestion to try to restore the camaraderie. Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:16:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: suggestion I've seen a writer's mailing list use similar conventions: SUB for a submission; CRIT for a critique of a submission. I would be interested in the kind of system Erika is suggesting. I don't have time for all the GOOD email, much less some of the disturbing and upsetting kind we've been receiving today. I hope the moderator will investigate the possibility of using standard headings. Elizabeth ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: emillen@MCP.COM [SMTP:emillen@MCP.COM] > Sent: Friday, January 09, 1998 4:04 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: suggestion > > Perhaps INDEX-L could implement subject headings, to help list > members screen out messages they're not interested in and thus > prevent flames and hurt feelings? Another mailing list I subscribe > to has implemented this with great success. Basically, the list owner > and members agree to post messages under specific subject headings... > for example > > abstracting > chat > marketing > publishing > software > technique > > When you post your message to the list, you include the subject > heading as the first word of your subject line. For example, > > software: question about macrex > > or > > marketing: indexing co-ops > > Other list members would know up front what the message pertains to > and can more easily screen the incoming mail. (My mail program will > let me create "rules" to sort out mail with certain words in the > subject line.) > > I know very little about LISTSERV software, but I know that my other > mailing list is set up so that I can also choose which subject > headings I receive. In other words, you could set up your > subscription so that you receive only messages pertaining to > software/technique and screen out all messages about marketing. > > It's discouraging to see a professional list like this one > deteriorate into flame wars. Just a suggestion to try to restore the > camaraderie. > > Erika Millen > Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:34:02 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: suggestion At 04:04 PM 1/9/1998 -0500, emillen@MCP.COM wrote: >Perhaps INDEX-L could implement subject headings, to help list >members screen out messages they're not interested in and thus >prevent flames and hurt feelings? Another mailing list I subscribe >to has implemented this with great success. I think this is a great idea. Maybe we can discuss it a bit and see if Charlotte likes it as well. I'd be happy to see this implemented, just to ease the traffice a bit. I could delete all the stuff about Cindex, for example, as I don't use that program. Thanks for bringing it up. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: suggestion In-Reply-To: <199801092135.QAA16986@library.lib.binghamton.edu> Just FYI, there is no way I know of to automate a subject line. If some of you want to come up with some subject headings and encourage list-subscribers to adhere to an established convention, that is perfectly fine with me. There are more than 800 subscribers to this list, so persuading all to use suggested subject headings might be difficult. Still, it might be worth a try. Charlotte On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Sonsie wrote: > At 04:04 PM 1/9/1998 -0500, emillen@MCP.COM wrote: > > >Perhaps INDEX-L could implement subject headings, to help list > >members screen out messages they're not interested in and thus > >prevent flames and hurt feelings? Another mailing list I subscribe > >to has implemented this with great success. > > I think this is a great idea. Maybe we can discuss it a bit and see if > Charlotte likes it as well. I'd be happy to see this implemented, just to > ease the traffice a bit. I could delete all the stuff about Cindex, for > example, as I don't use that program. Thanks for bringing it up. > > =Sonsie= > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:03:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Suggestion Part of a previous posting... >Perhaps INDEX-L could implement subject headings, to help list >members screen out messages they're not interested in and thus >prevent flames and hurt feelings? Another mailing list I subscribe >to has implemented this with great success. Basically, the list owner >and members agree to post messages under specific subject headings... >for example > > abstracting > chat > marketing > publishing > software > technique I think this would be a good idea only if it is voluntary. It is impossible for me to say that I would NEVER be interested in discussions on publishing or abstracting even though I might, as a general rule, not be interested. If I were to blanketly turn off all of those discussions, I might miss something that I really WAS interested in. I think the old saying "never say never" applies. If we make this a voluntary and maybe even a recommended practice. Those who really wish to not ever see something on publishing could use their email programs to filter those out and others could look at the first word of the subject to determine if they had interest. Any other thoughts? Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Lineboro, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com phone: 800-776-0137 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:32:19 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Truse Ok....:)))) my mail box is driving me nuts...I'm back and thank you all. I couldn't even unsubscribe for lack of time. Yes Pam my skin is thin...I like the motivation or the desire to war...so I am offering you a truce. The next time my feelings get hurt I will tell on you rather than trying to taking up for myself. I tell my kids just the opposite but it really looks like the only way do handle things like this on here. I love you all very much and I can't wait to meet each one of you and give you the biggest hug you have every had. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: suggestion Charlotte Skuster wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Layman Subject: Social Science Database Producers In-Reply-To: <199709121905.PAA18326@mailhost.cas.utk.edu> Hello. I have enjoyed this list tremendously for the last two months--but still being fairly new, I'll apologize in advance if this isn't a relevant inquiry. I will graduate with an M. S. in Information Science this May and am interested in an indexing or abstracting position at a social science/ psychology database. I have an extensive research background with two previous Masters in Psychology as well as some practical and classroom experience in abstracting and thesaurus development. If anyone has advice on companies (especially smaller ones) and what they are looking for, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks, Elizabeth Layman School of Information Sciences University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-4330 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:59:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Truse Susan, goo,you're back. Suellen On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:32:19 EST Bookindexr writes: >Ok....:)))) my mail box is driving me nuts...I'm back and thank you >all. I >couldn't even unsubscribe for lack of time. > >Yes Pam my skin is thin...I like the motivation or the desire to >war...so I am >offering you a truce. The next time my feelings get hurt I will tell >on you >rather than trying to taking up for myself. I tell my kids just the >opposite >but it really looks like the only way do handle things like this on >here. > >I love you all very much and I can't wait to meet each one of you and >give you >the biggest hug you have every had. > >Susan > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:30:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: spam Although I am going to pass up the marketing offer this time around, I would possibly be interested in it in the future. I am very impressed, Susan, with your generous offer to us all. I think it quite appropriate that you should make the offer through the list. It is obviously not a "scheme" by any means. Please keep us all informed (by means of the list) about similar projects in the future. Sincerely yours, Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Indexing Services E-mail: nifkev@juno.com 181 Sundown Rd. Grahamsville, NY 12740 (914)-985-9465 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:21:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: FRED BROWN Subject: Indexing on the edge We've been under a state of emergency for three days here in Ottawa, = Canada, as a non-stop ice storm blankets everything - a good inch = thick. Power is going on and off, and, on and off again in different = parts of the city. So far O.K. in our house. I've an associate assisting me enter index markers in FrameMaker. The = lights blink, the UPS clicks away, but the hydro (electricity), as we = call it, stays on. Looking out the window one fallen branch has pulled = the hydro lines off a neighbour's house -- crews won't be able to get = there for a week. Another large icy branch rests on the main telephone = cable running between the back yards. The next street has a couple of = hydro lines down across the road. We've been beavering away at a set of four computer manuals. They were = scheduled to be completed mid-December. But software and technical = writing schedules slipped. Bye bye Christmas holidays. Still more rain, changing to ice pellets, then flurries. Back to rain = again. Branches at the front now rest gently on the hydro cables running = into our house. Looks OK. Keep typing. Before Christmas the technical writers headed off on holidays. I = arranged with the Publications Manager to index the Beta versions over = the Christmas break. She sent me hard copies for the first three manuals = - so I can get started indexing in Macrex. A couple days later, with = the two technical writers on holiday, she tried to locate the proper = FrameMaker files but wasn't quite sure which files on the server are for = the Beta release. She does her best and emails me what she is able to = find. We keep a close ear to the radio. My wife's parents live an hour's drive = south in Brockville. Power has been out in the whole city since 1 A.M. = yesterday. Seven electrical towers going into the city collapsed; the = cables snapped back wrapping around the towers, now entombed in ice. = Power might be restored by Sunday. My wife talks to my father-in-law on = the phone -- tries to convince him not to try to did dig his car out of = the driveway. He's 75, no spring chicken! They are still warm enough but = the house temperature is starting to drop. Highways and roads are = closed, trains stopped, airplanes grounded. We're over half way entering the index markers into the third index. The = FrameMaker file doesn't match the printed Beta release. The last = modified date on the FrameMaker files is five days after the Beta = release date. Look around for moved text and new stuff. Do the best we = can. Keep moving along. At last we're done. Email in the files while the = going's good. Time to call it a day. Hot cookies coming out of oven. Kids need = stories. Got some warm air and sunshine? Please send it north. We've lots of = icicles to melt. Over and out. Fred Brown * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * McCrae Consulting Associates "Technical Communication" fredb@cyberus.ca Phone: 613-728-5761 Fax: 613-728-9373 31 Grange Ave., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1Y 0N8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:03:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: Indexing on the edge Whew! Congratulations to Fred for completing a job under truly adverse circumstances and before the dark and cold triumph. Who said that indexing was not a life of risk and chance? Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 20:42:20 -0600 Reply-To: bookend@theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: An attempt to lighten the mood Subject: Inspiration Indecision is the key to flexibility. Someone who thinks logically provides a nice contrast to the real world. I have seen the truth and it makes no sense. If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame. One-seventh of your life is spent on Monday. Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious. And one more thought: Praise in public, criticize in private, and double-check where your "Reply TO" is going! Susan Hernandez BookEnd Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:08:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Indexer's Marketing Consortium (IMC...indexer's invented acronym...:) Bookindexr wrote: > > I would like to see what everyone would think about a Indexer's Marketing > Consortium. I would like to participate. Jeri Lee ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:13:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Randal Luckow Subject: Chat:Suggestion:Subject Headings:Reply In-Reply-To: <199801092224.QAA90060@mail3.doit.wisc.edu> What a great idea! Perhaps message subject headings could also be structured with colons in a way that sets off broader terms from narrower terms. For example, the last round of rants could have been: Chat: Employment: Feminism: Flame: Reply Of course, implementation would necessitate the creation of a thesaurus of standardized subject terms. Any volunteers? Randal. _________________________________________________ (snip) >>Perhaps INDEX-L could implement subject headings, to help list >>members screen out messages they're not interested in and thus >>prevent flames and hurt feelings? Another mailing list I subscribe >>to has implemented this with great success. Basically, the list owner >>and members agree to post messages under specific subject headings... >>for example >> >> abstracting >> chat >> marketing >> publishing >> software >> technique (snip) Randal Luckow (608) 259-1962 751 Jenifer, #3 Madison, WI 53703 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 06:04:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Truse In a message dated 1/9/98 7:37:05 PM Central Standard Time, lserve@juno.com writes: Quoting me, Susan << >Yes Pam my skin is thin...I like the motivation or the desire to >war... >> Good grief I can't believe I misspelled that like should be lack. I do not like to war in shape or form. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:46:19 -0500 Reply-To: mirjana martic Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mirjana martic Subject: Re: Indexing on the edge When you southerners send worm weather up North, send a bit to Montreal also. I could have not described better than Fred our life here in Montreal since last monday evening. The only difference is that the metro went off yesterday and that I walked from downtown to my place throught the melting snow and lakes on the streets for more than 2 hours. And I'm fighting with my 400 pages index of lighting standards on the roads... Mirjana >Got some warm air and sunshine? Please send it north. We've lots of = >icicles to melt. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:36:11 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BVLDais Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Insurance Question by Newbie?? As a newly divorced indexer, I am no longer able to rely on my husband's coverage for medical insurance. I am hoping to find something that is "reasonably" priced and at least adequate. I am very healthy and hope to stay that way but feel like I should at least have some coverage. Any ideas? I'd be very happy for any input you can offer! Sure would be nice if ASI would provide some kind of insurance or something?? Feel free to reply privately or publicly. No matter to me. Virginia Dais BVLDais@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: new lister I want to welcome my friend Nancy Noyes who has just subscribed to Index-L. Nancy is one of my oldest and best friends, going back to 4th grade at Hancock School in Lexington, Mass. I have convinced her she will make a good indexer and she's about to take the USDA course. She's attended a Mass. chapter meeting that I couldn't even get to, so some of you already know her. I know she has a lot to offer, including a great sense of humor and a lot of energy and ideas. Welcome Nancy! Have fun, speak up, and see you soon. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Mentoring roundtable As Joanne Clendenen said: this is the place to ask for inputs, I'll bet. (I stole your words, Joanne... hope you don't mind!) Dick Evans and I will be running the mentoring roundtable at the American Society of Indexers' conference in Seattle in May. We'd like some comments and suggestions from beginning and experienced indexers on: Where you'd like to see the emphasis: being a mentor; being mentored; financial aspects of mentoring; workload; communication; scheduling; competition, etc, etc. Roundtable structure: Talking vs. listening? If you are in a mentoring arrangement, do you have information you want to share with the group? Outcomes: What do you expect to walk away with? Information in your head? On a handout? What questions do you want answered? If you've been to a roundtable like this, or run one before, what were the most useful/popular parts? Any other ideas you might have would be very welcome. Ann Norcross Dick Evans Crossover Information Services Infodex Indexing Services mailto:norcross@ix.netcom.com mailto:infodex@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:15:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Apologies: To the list for unjustly lumping you all together I put this under the subject heading "Apologies" I know that it is probably one we will want to include with our list of subject headings or something similar. We certainly have a enough of them to include it.... that is if we decide to use them. First I would like to apologize to those that tried to E-mail me yesterday and couldn't because I had put a block on my E-mail. It was temporary panic button for me. I had a good reason but it wasn't that I didn't want to hear from any of you. I realized it may hurt someone feelings and unblocked it shortly after. Anyway if you tried to E-mail me I'm sorry. I will love to hear from you now. I would like to apologize to the list for lumping you all together and accusing you of thinking my proposal was spamming. There was no excuse for it...I try to let those who didn't agree to it know I wasn't talking to them by stating that I wasn't including them but I shouldn't have even made the staement or ever assume silence meant something it wasn't. Silence could very well mean the same way I was feeling...just too tired of these types of incidents...not just mine but for all the others...it hurts to see others being hurt especially when you feel it is unjust or unwarranted. I would like to say that whenever I do post I do wonder if what I say will be accepted by experienced indexers. Is this the type of thing I should post? When I come to the conclusion that there is no other way to handle it other than posting it (how could I let indexer know about this if I didn't have there E-mail address...I only have around 50 E-mails addresses...I didn't want to exclude anyone) or I feel that it is appropriate...I'll have mental battle, "Is it really appropriate...do they only want to exchange ideas of how to index...no I have heard of ideas of marketing before...yep this is approiate...then I go ahead...post it hold my breath. Then when I am immediate attacked...I feel like well this person has been here longer than I have she knows how things should be done. Then I think...does everyone feel this way...very few response..maybe most of them do... This was entirely a one time posting just to notify people and I did state that if anyone was interest to write me. I didn't ask them to reply to the list. I am not rehashing this to string this along. I am just trying to help avoid it happening again. I think, Pam, your statement, phrased politer, would have been appropriate if you had waited until I did start "spamming" or until others started replying onlist. Also we all have been through this enough to know we shouldn't just hit the reply key..but mistakes happen and 9 times out of 10 we feel we have to send another annoying letter to apologize for it. For the newbies a polite statement such as I have heard before on here is sufficient to let them know the rules. There is no need to attack someone. I was too quick to lash back. I am sorry...it was inmature. Growing up fast... I am especially sorry for those that got drugged into this and any hurt feelings they may have felt...but then sometimes good come out of bad situations and it looks like we are looking for ways to improve our communication. Hopefully we will succeed I do plan to continue with the chats, the marketing, everything a before...so contact me if you are interest...not the list. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexer@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:57:50 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: suggestion In-Reply-To: <199801100515.XAA00912@mixcom.mixcom.com> I hate to be the party-pooper here, but (as someone just pointed out) this scheme was introduced on Copyediting-L. Many of us, including me, found it to be a royal pain in the butt to have to remember or look up the special headings every time we wanted to post. In fact, I don't subscribe to Copyediting-L any more in part because the participants are into rules and chat far more than I can tolerate. I won't object of course to others adding special headings to their posts, but I will continue to post the way I always have--with a meaningful subject line. People who have filters can still filter for terms like "Cindex," "publishing," and so on, which would be in the subject lines (if people are using meaningful subject lines). They can also use the delete key. If you get your list in digest form, it's *extremely* easy to see what the subjects are and ignore the ones you're not interested in. I'd prefer to leave the burden where it is, on those who don't want to read the mail. Cheers, ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:02:12 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: advice for sticky client situation? In-Reply-To: <199801100515.XAA00912@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Any suggestions on how to deal with this client would be greatly appreciated. >I'm doing another index for them right now. I've done many for them in the >past few years with no complaints whatsoever. This seems to be the only one >with problems. Am I overreacting, do you think? My advice is to get all the instructions in writing. Even if the discussion takes place over the phone, you or the editor can follow up with a written (e-mailed if the editor has e-mail) memo confirming your understanding of the instructions. I make a habit of putting everything in writing and saving it. This has saved me headaches many, many times. No, I don't think you're overreacting at all. Good luck. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:22:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anntrue Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: spam *Spam* is in the eye of the beholder -- well, at least sometimes! Ann Truesdale anntrue@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:23:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: Chat:Suggestion:Subject Headings:Reply:Paranoia Nervous snip from Randal's post: "For example, the last round of rants could have been: Chat: Employment: Feminism: Flame: Reply" I follow his chain with amusement, except for the subhead "feminism." What did the "last round of rants" have to do with feminism? I missed that angle altogether, and doubt that it was actually present. (On the other hand, I don't want to start another round of rants. No way! ) Nervously, Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:29:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Chat:Suggestion:Subject Headings:Reply:Paranoia At 07:23 PM 1/10/1998 -0500, Ann Parrish wrote: > >Chat: Employment: Feminism: Flame: Reply" > >I follow his chain with amusement, except for the subhead "feminism." What >did the "last round of rants" have to do with feminism? I missed that angle >altogether, and doubt that it was actually present. (On the other hand, I >don't want to start another round of rants. No way! ) Ann, I think this was just an example of a possible sub line and had nothing to do with the Late Unpleasantness on the list. :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:46:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: suggestion At 03:57 PM 1/10/1998 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: >I hate to be the party-pooper here, but (as someone just pointed out) this >scheme was introduced on Copyediting-L. Many of us, including me, found it >to be a royal pain in the butt to have to remember or look up the special >headings every time we wanted to post. I like a sort of middle-of-the-road approach. I don't we need to make it so complex that we have to look up special headings or anything, but I don't see why we couldn't precede the [meaningful] subject line with a single word indicating the general area of discussion. If you're not interested in chatty conversations, you might really appreciate seeing the word CHAT first up in the subject head. Then you don't have to guess what the "real" topic might be, you'll know you're not interested. Same goes for technical help requests for specific indexing programs. If MACREX or SKY shows up first, you'll know immediately that you're interested [or not] in the rest of the subject (which might be something like "letter vs. word sorting, how to do it"). I absolutely agree that meaningful subject lines will go a long way to eliminating these perennial disagreements over waste of bandwidth and so forth, but it might not hurt to add a single word (or two) to further identify the general category of discussion. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:00:45 -0800 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Insurance Question by Newbie?? To all, I was going to reply just to Virginia, but I realized others might not know the history. ASI used to belong to the Council of Writers, or whatever it was called, just so people could obtain insurance through them. However, it was so expensive that no one ever bought it, as far as we know. We have dropped the membership, which was expensive. You will do far better on your own through your local Blue Shield agent, or a similar company that has preferred provider-type insurance. Shop around locally, and talk to agents. If you can't afford $250 or $500 deductible insurance, go with $1000 or $2000, so you are covered for disasters, and then "self-insure" for small problems. Also, Blue Shield, at least in California, has a wonderful program whereby you purchase insurance separately for children--it is extremely affordable. Good luck! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:07:20 -0800 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Indexing on the edge To all our indexer friends in the frozen Northeast: may your clients be patient, may you keep yourself warm, and may the sun shine soon and dry up the ice! I heard on the radio today, as I drove through fog and rain instead of ice and snow and slush, that it may be a month before power is restored to one area of Maine. That has got to be, truly, an indexer's nightmare. (By the way, I used to index on a computer using a 500-watt Honda generator placed about 50 feet away from the house, so the noise wasn't too bad. It worked fine, as long as I remembered to turn everything off every 4 hours, before I ran out of gas.) Our hearts are with you. Global warming??? Hah! Elinor Lindheimer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:19:03 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: suggestion I agree and was going to post the about the same thing except I was just to saying use Subject Headings for those topics that are controversal Just so you wouldn't have to rack you brain trying to figure our one word for question about indexing techniques, which is why most people use Index-L anyway. Maybe each of us should send in subjects they routinely delete immediately and it would give us especially the newbie and idea of which ones we should use Subject Headings and also what we shouldn't use Index-L for at all. However I know that most of the controversy has been over my chats and marketing so I for well will use the Subject headings "Chat" Marketing Consortium" there are other kinds of marketing questions that come up that some may be intertested in even it they are not interested in the consortium so I don't think I should just say "Marketing". Maybe for new ideas that are one time postings use "Announcement" - what ever the announcement is about "Annoucement - New Chapter Opening in Tennessee" (wishful thinking here...:) Susan Wilkerson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:20:06 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: suggestion In a message dated 1/10/98 6:54:26 PM Central Standard Time, sconroy@SLONET.ORG writes: << perennial disagreements over waste of bandwidth and so forth >> What is bandwidth? And how do you waste it? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:06:41 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: suggestion At 09:20 AM 1/11/1998 EST, Bookindexr wrote: >What is bandwidth? And how do you waste it? I think this expression goes back a long time, and may not even be directly related to Internet mailing lists--it sounds almost like something one would say if one were using a CB radio for communication. It's used now to mean wasting "space" on the list with irrelevant comments or chat. Some people still pay by the hour for the time they're online, or pay by the message for storage of message, or something other than a flat fee. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:23:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Betsy Ann Schoeller Subject: Re: bandwidth In-Reply-To: <199801111510.JAA04522@batch3.csd.uwm.edu> Bandwidth refers to the section of the electromagnetic spectrum assigned to computer communication. Ever notice that there is a "lag" in communications during certain parts of the day? That's because so many people are all using their computers to communicate at the same time, and there is only so much bandwidth that we all share.... Kind of like everyone trying to use the phone lines at the same time and all you get is a message about the circuts being busy, please try again later. It's always a good idea to up and download large files during low usage hours to better use the available bandwidth, and some in the know would even disapprove of the unneccessary bickering as a waste of bandwidth.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:26:58 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: suggestion In a message dated 1/11/98 9:10:56 AM Central Standard Time, sconroy@SLONET.ORG writes: << It's used now to mean wasting "space" on the list with irrelevant comments or chat >> So when you say you don't won't "chat" on here you are not refering to the announcement and reminders of the chat rooms but are actually talking about personal chit chat like the weather, index eating worms, what a great day you had cleaning out your desk. Anything like this should be put under "Chat"? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:19:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: GEEKTALK: bandwidth In-Reply-To: <199801111422.GAA11811@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 09:20 AM 1/11/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/10/98 6:54:26 PM Central Standard Time, >sconroy@SLONET.ORG writes: > ><< perennial disagreements over waste of bandwidth and so > forth >> > >What is bandwidth? And how do you waste it? Susan, Bandwidth refers to the capacity of a network to handle message traffic, well actually data packets. (And the Internet is a network of networks). Anyway, it's a function of the equipment, including the cabling, used on a network. In fact, increased bandwidth is behind all of the hoopla by various telecommunications and cable companies as they change their network equipment over to fiber optics. My local cable company is constantly advertising about how it's going over to broadband (wide bandwidth) communications as it installs fiber optic equipment, royally annoying me in the process because we still don't have enough channels where there's always something good to watch on TV. ;-D Anyway, as more networks go over to fiber optics, this will increase the bandwidth available on the Internet as well. As for "wasting" bandwidth? It only means that someone is frivolously using some of a network's capacity for carrying messages. It usually means that someone else disagrees with how someone used the Internet. I guess I "waste" it when hubby and I use the Internet to send files to each other across the room when we can't transfer them between our computers via floppy. ;-D Bandwidth could also refer to the amount of stage area required by a musical group. For example, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir could be referred to as "broadband". Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:48:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: SUGGESTION: suggestion In-Reply-To: <199801111429.GAA04190@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> Susan, One person's controversy is another's delight. (Then there are those of us who delight in controversy. ;-D) So, I don't know if reserving subject headings for "controversial" topics will be all that useful. Discussions of marketing have been a staple here on Index-L as long as I've been here (almost four years). After all, marketing is part of running a business. So, IMHO, it would be misleading to prefix the subject lines for discussion of an Indexer's Marketing Consortium with "CHAT:". It's not "CHAT:" but "MARKETING". After all, we don't want to categorize threads as CHAT simply because someone may not like the subject matter, don't we? (And give CHAT a bad name, at that!) Now, seeeeee!! The above paragraph is exactly why I can barely contain my gleeful anticipation of widely using subject headings here. We'll have barrels of fun, as a bunch of indexers, over whether a given subject heading accurately reflected the contents of a message. ;-D Lynn At 09:19 AM 1/11/98 EST, you wrote: >I agree and was going to post the about the same thing except I was just to >saying use Subject Headings for those topics that are controversal Just so you >wouldn't have to rack you brain trying to figure our one word for question >about indexing techniques, which is why most people use Index-L anyway. Maybe >each of us should send in subjects they routinely delete immediately and it >would give us especially the newbie and idea of which ones we should use >Subject Headings and also what we shouldn't use Index-L for at all. However I >know that most of the controversy has been over my chats and marketing so I >for well will use the Subject headings "Chat" Marketing Consortium" there are >other kinds of marketing questions that come up that some may be intertested >in even it they are not interested in the consortium so I don't think I should >just say "Marketing". Maybe for new ideas that are one time postings use >"Announcement" - what ever the announcement is about >"Annoucement - New Chapter Opening in Tennessee" (wishful thinking here...:) > >Susan Wilkerson > > *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:27:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: commercial schemes and index-l--moderator's .02 Several have asked for my opinion on the recent controversy. Here 'tis. There is a general prohibition against commercial activities on University-run listservs. I have never seen a written rule as such...it seems to be an understanding and it serves to keep rampant hucksterism and activities for private gain out of academic institutions. Index-l is not typical because many are subscribers because they are engaged in the commercial enterprise of selling indexing services and need to exchange "commercial ideas". So I allow a broad interpretation. Understand, that there are no listserv police, that I know of...so it is really up to me to interpret the unwritten rule. (such power! 8-)) As for the marketing idea in question. It is ok for Susan to float the idea as a trial balloon, which she did. Any further discussion of her particular proposal or establishment of a constortium (or co-op, or any other such enterprise) should take place off-list, which seems to be happening. I will return to my role as chief lurker. Carry on. Charlotte Skuster Index-l Moderator ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:36:53 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liz Speck Subject: Re: CHAT: suggestion subjects Hello all. I am new to yr. list and have joined to find out more about indexing and how it operates. This topic of subjects caught my eye. I think Carol has a very good suggetion. I am on several lists some that are policed to with in an inch of their lives and others reasonably free wheeling. One in particular uses the headings system such as CHAT etc. I am not sure but I think it is for a more formal reason such as archiving and for subscribers to pick and choose which topics they want to receive. I take all headings but I can still pick and choose what I want to read because of the prefix such as chat. On the suggestion put by Carol this would work in an informal way with out all the formal need to remember specific subjects. Looking forward to being educated in the art of indexing regards Liz Carol Roberts wrote: > >>I hate to be the party-pooper here, but (as someone just pointed out) this >>scheme was introduced on Copyediting-L. Many of us, including me, found it >>to be a royal pain in the butt to have to remember or look up the special >>headings every time we wanted to post. > >I like a sort of middle-of-the-road approach. I don't we need to make it so >complex that we have to look up special headings or anything, but I don't >see why we couldn't precede the [meaningful] subject line with a single word >indicating the general area of discussion. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:02:10 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? HI, And now for something completely different. Has anyone experimented with voice recognition software (the continuous speech type)? How could it help us? I have lots of questions, the price is pretty low but I'd love to talk with someone who has tried it. The ad I read said that you could read your input into your application software. If it would work with EXCEL it might make entry easier because we could export as a tab delimited file. I guess I'd like to know: 1) can you build a dictionary or are you limited to theirs. 2) has anyone tried this OR indexed the manuals and has some insight? 3) will it really 'read' into applications other than Word? Thanks, Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:07:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: SUGGESTION: suggestion In a message dated 1/11/98 10:55:37 AM Central Standard Time, techndex@PACBELL.NET writes: << for well will use the Subject headings "Chat" Marketing Consortium" there are >other kinds of marketing questions that come up that some may be intertested >> ooops I'm am in tooo big of a hurry. I was referring "Chat" to the announcement about the chat rooms, reminders etc. and then "Marketing Consortium" to occasional announcement of the Marketing Consortium. But after figuring out that Chat doesn't only mean chat rooms but also is talking about off the wall subjects not having anything to do with indexing techniques. I think I should refer to the chat room announcements under "Chat Room - ICQ/AOL" Chat could refer to the off the wall stuff. Personally I have enjoyed the chats. I like learning more about the people on Index-L and when they need encouragement and when they need an applause. For instance the problems the North is having with the weather and when someone get their first index. All of that is Chat. I think it is just as important as all of the other stuff that is why I started the chat rooms. However everyone subscibing to Index-L for their own reasons. I just don't want to make anymore mistakes. I would like to post freely knowing what I am doing won't offend anyone. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:25:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: suggestion At 11:26 AM 1/11/1998 EST, Bookindexr wrote: >So when you say you don't won't "chat" on here you are not refering to the >announcement and reminders of the chat rooms but are actually talking about >personal chit chat like the weather, index eating worms, what a great day you >had cleaning out your desk. Anything like this should be put under "Chat"? Susan, I do hope you're using the "generic YOU" in this post! :-) I personally have no problem with chatty posts--in fact, I participate if the topic grabs me. If I'm in a hurry or not interested, I just delete them. Others have objected to non-indexing-related posts (chat and other stuff), but I've always made good use of my delete key. I'd like to see the list kept as unrestrained as possible, but I think a keyword or two will help avoid future problems. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:25:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? At 03:02 PM 1/11/1998 EST, SHughes512 wrote: > Has anyone experimented with voice recognition software (the continuous >speech type)? How could it help us? >I have lots of questions, the price is pretty low but I'd love to talk with >someone who has tried it. The ad I read said that you could read your input >into your application software. If it would work with EXCEL it might make >entry easier because we could export as a tab delimited file. I guess I'd >like to know: > 1) can you build a dictionary or are you limited to theirs. > 2) has anyone tried this OR indexed the manuals and has some insight? > 3) will it really 'read' into applications other than Word? A friend has purchased an inexpensive version of this software, and yes, you CAN teach it to recognize words other than whatever is programmed into it. This person doesn't have Word; he uses it as a standalone application. His interest is to dictate text files to be imported into either word processing programs or email messages, as he's a terrible typist. Apparently this particular program does enable the user to save files in ASCII format (as well as several others). You then import the file into whatever program you're using. I know that Macrex allows comma-delimited files to be imported, so I'd imagine that a voice-recognition program could be utilized with it. There are upper-level programs that cost about $250 that are apparently even better and easier to use, according to a recent column in the Los Angeles Times newspaper. My friend bought a relatively inexpensive one for about $50. His main complaint is that the "training" time is supposed to be half an hour or so, and he's put in about three hours so far and isn't quite done. This kind of time investment wouldn't be too bad if you =knew= you could save time (or save your carpal tunnels) later on. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:47:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: suggestion Yes!!! I was referring "you" to Index-L. I was addressing the whole letter to the list. I guess I am still under the impression that there are do's and don't to posting. Someone had mentioned to me something about a problem a while back with too much chatting and that Charlotte or whoever was moderator came down hard on it and stopped chatting. Did I missunderstand this. Is there a list available that says what you can post and what you can't? Charlotte wrote: Ok what you are saying is that we can make announcement about such enterprises when they are first establish but.. Does this mean that I can't post a short reminders periodically to newbie that the chat rooms and the Indexer's Marketing Consortium exist? I just want to be clear about it. Both activities can proceed by word of mouth so I don't have to post. It would just be easier to let newbies know about it by posting. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:09:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Decker Subject: Re: suggestion In-Reply-To: <199801112151.QAA07744@mailhost.infi.net> As a "newbie", I appreciate being informed. I think that is different than soliciting business. Debby Decker At 04:47 PM 1/11/98 EST, you wrote: >Yes!!! I was referring "you" to Index-L. I was addressing the whole letter to >the list. I guess I am still under the impression that there are do's and >don't to posting. Someone had mentioned to me something about a problem a >while back with too much chatting and that Charlotte or whoever was moderator >came down hard on it and stopped chatting. Did I missunderstand this. > >Is there a list available that says what you can post and what you can't? > >Charlotte wrote: >constortium (or co-op, or any other such enterprise) should take place off- >list, which seems to be >happening.> > >Ok what you are saying is that we can make announcement about such enterprises >when they are first establish but.. >Does this mean that I can't post a short reminders periodically to newbie that >the chat rooms and the Indexer's Marketing Consortium exist? I just want to be >clear about it. Both activities can proceed by word of mouth so I don't have >to post. It would just be easier to let newbies know about it by posting. > >Susan > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:19:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: moderator's .02 In-Reply-To: <199801111929.LAA02768@darkwing.uoregon.edu> >Several have asked for my opinion on the recent controversy. Here 'tis. > > >As for the marketing idea in question. It is ok for Susan to float the >idea as a trial balloon, which she did. Any further discussion of her >particular proposal or establishment of a constortium (or co-op, or any >other such enterprise) should take place off-list, which seems to be >happening. > >I will return to my role as chief lurker. Carry on. You're good at this, Charlotte. Real good. Thanks. Martha Back Words ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:48:40 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: suggestion At 04:47 PM 1/11/1998 EST, Bookindexr wrote: >Yes!!! I was referring "you" to Index-L. I was addressing the whole letter to >the list. I guess I am still under the impression that there are do's and >don't to posting. Someone had mentioned to me something about a problem a >while back with too much chatting and that Charlotte or whoever was moderator >came down hard on it and stopped chatting. Did I missunderstand this. > >Is there a list available that says what you can post and what you can't? Susan, I took a look at the Index-L FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), and there's nothing in there at all about chat versus "substantive" posting. Nor are there rules spelled out about other sorts of information being posted to the list. I thought Charlotte did a good job of differentiating between posting information about marketing projects on-list, versus discussion of ongoing details...which belong off-list. Periodically we have a little dust-up here about what constitutes "chat" and what constitutes "substantive posts related to work," usually after somebody has introduced an interesting thread about books or movies, or even what they can see outside their office window (this thread came up last winter, as I recall). Too much chatty conversational posting, and somebody is bound to write in and ask us to confine ourselves to work-related issues. There's no hard-and-fast rules about what we can and can't post in this regard, it's just a matter of cluttering up the list (in some people's minds) or engaging in friendly discourse that is not directly work-related. Too much chat is annoying to some members; no chat at all makes the list mighty dull, and we don't get to know one another very well. The rules (the few that there are) are very fluid, IMO, as they should be. Nobody wants to read spam (bulk-mailed ads for products and services, or get-rich-quick schemes), and lengthy ongoing threads about favorite movies or what we did last weekend probably don't belong here (take 'em to private mail), but aside from that, if it has even a tenuous link to indexing, it's probably of interest to many members. And a reasonable amount of friendly chat ("reasonable" being a pretty indefinable term) is welcomed by most of us. The above is strictly my opinion, gleaned from several years worth of participation here. Others may feel differently (please say so), and Charlotte, of course, is the Keeper of the List and has the last word on what's okay and what isn't. I hope this helps clear up some potential misunderstandings. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:30:26 -0400 Reply-To: leditor@frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? In answer to Sharon's question concerning voice recognition: Yes, you can add words to the existing dictionary. Yes, it has been tried. Yes, it will read into applications other than Word. This does not mean that all voice recognition software can accomplish these objectives or that all such software does it in the same way. Not all voice recognition software is created equal. I routinely use a natural speech product which in infinitely better than the discrete speech software I previously used both in terms of speed of dictation and accuracy of recognition. Quite literally, I cannot talk faster than it can pick up the words (and I live in New York). Training the software is a breeze. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:01:57 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: QUERY: Wellisch's views, how acceptable? I have been doing some more exploring in my copy of Wellisch, Indexing from A to Z, 2nd edn, 1995, and wonder how widely shared are some of the views he expresses. In particular: p. 20: "The advice given in older textbooks , namely that prepositions and conjunctions in subheadings should be disregarded and the subheadings arranged by the word following the function word, is no longer supported by the current arrangement rules and standards, none of which recommend that anything be disregarded in alphabetizing." Is this true? Do people usually now alphabetize subheadings by the first word, whatever it may be? pp. 26-28, subheadings beginning with "and" Wellisch disapproves of these, and recommends such subheadings as obesity dietary factors hereditary slimming diets rather than obesity and diet and heredity Do most people similarly eschew "and" at the start of subheadings? pp. 294-297, article on "MAC" Wellisch recommends alphabetizing names beginning with "Mac", "Mc", or "M'" strictly according to the spelling, not as if all spelled "Mac". Again, is this what most people actually do? (I'm referring to names of Scottish and Irish origin, not African names such as M'Bow.) NB: I'm NOT asking you all to report your own individual practices about these matters, but rather looking for well-informed comments about the general acceptability of Wellisch's recommendations -- the three I mention and also any others that might be a bit controversial. From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? larry e. edmonson wrote: > > In answer to Sharon's question concerning voice recognition: > > Yes, you can add words to the existing dictionary. Yes, it has been > tried. Yes, it will read into applications other than Word. This does > not mean that all voice recognition software can accomplish these > objectives or that all such software does it in the same way. Not all > voice recognition software is created equal. > > I routinely use a natural speech product which in infinitely better than > the discrete speech software I previously used both in terms of speed of > dictation and accuracy of recognition. Quite literally, I cannot talk > faster than it can pick up the words (and I live in New York). Training > the software is a breeze. Thanks for this info, Larry. I, too, have been wondering about talking to my computer--something more than the occasional "You piece of ...!!" would be a nice change. Specific product recommendations would be a huge help. What product are you using now that you are so happy with? Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:33:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: QUERY: Wellisch's views, how acceptable? At 08:01 PM 1/12/98 +1300, you wrote: >Is this true? Do people usually now alphabetize subheadings by the first >word, whatever it may be? > I have one client who does. Strikes me as strange. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:32:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Insurance Question by Newbie?? After completing the salary survey which included questions on insurance, I took the results to several national companies. Most did not respond to my letters. The ones that did, indicated that we did not have enough interest for them to quote low enough rates to get people to sign up. In additional to Blue Cross, there is the National Association of Self Employed (I think that is the name). We were supposed to meet, but the representative cancelled the appointment and it has never been rescheduled. I will try to meet with her yet. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:51:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? The meeting-planning portion of my brain, which never completely shuts down, forces me to ask: Will those of you who use and like voice recognition software please send me private e-mail with product names. If you have names of contact people who could do demos at some future ASI chapter meeting, please pass those on to me as well. Thanks, thanks, thanks. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:09:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Corporate names This was originally posted on the American Name Society discussion list (ANS-L); the poster gave me permission to repost it. Note that the section about the actual names is a direct quote from the article. This goes to show that "term selection" is not just an indexer's nightmare! CORPORATE NAME GAME The national Canadian weekly, Maclean's, features an article on pp. 28 & 30 in the January 12, 1998 issue which may be of interest. The article is by Vince Beiser and is entitled "The Corporate Name Game." Beiser describes the growing business in Canada and the US of creating corporate names. There are some names that have turned into cross- cultural marketing disasters. *Ford Pinto: In Brazil, "pinto" is a slang term meaning under-endowed male." *Chevrolet Nova: in Latin, "nova" means "new star." But when spoken aloud in Spanish, it sounds like "no-va"-"It doesn't go." *Puffs Tissues: In Germany, "puff" is a colloquial term for a brothel. *Clairol Mist Stick: "Mist" is slang for manure in Germany. *Kellogg Bran Buds: The cereal's name translates loosely into Swedish as "burnt farmer." While describing procedures for creating names, the article concludes there are some names that are just left alone--Apple computer is the example. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services Editor-in-Chief, Key Words, American Society of Indexers cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:08:45 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Chicago/Great Lakes meeting The second indexer chat for the Chicago/Great Lakes chapter is scheduled for January 31 at 11:30 till 1:30 or later at the Superrosa Restaurant, 4620 N. Central Ave., Chicago. Admission will be $10.00 at the door and whatever you wish to order from the menu. While it is not necessary to preregister, it would be helpful if the restaurant knew how many to set up more. Please contact Sandi Schroeder at 847-303-0989 or Sanindex@aol.com with this information. In addition, please watch for information on our web site. The address will be announced shortly. A spring workshop is in the works. Details to follow. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? Maryann Corbett wrote: > The meeting-planning portion of my brain, which never completely shuts > down, forces me to ask: Will those of you who use and like voice > recognition software please send me private e-mail with product names. Voice-software users: please send this information to the list, too. Indexers' opinions on various types of software are valid--and very interesting!--topics for this list. (Note to INDEX-Lers: as someone mentioned in another thread, the periodic INDEX-L flare-ups follow a fairly regular pattern. One of the outcomes I've seen before is that people get afraid to mention anything on the list, and lots of cool info gets sent privately. Don't worry; just post! I really need to hear what you have to say about all kinds of things.) > If you have names of contact people who could do demos at some future > ASI chapter meeting, please pass those on to me as well. Thanks, thanks, > thanks. Ditto. There a bunch of ASI chapter program people who would probably like to see this info. Please, please post it here. Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services mailto:norcross@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Dye Subject: Re: Corporate names Cynthia, What is the purpose of the American Name Society discussion list (ANS-L)? Is it open to people outside of the society? Jennifer * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jennifer J. Dye (jdye@gale.com) Bibliographic Authority Control Specialist Gale Research 835 Penobscot Building Detroit, MI 48226-4094 Voice (313) 961-2242 x1889 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:04:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Dragon speak I would love to hear if anyone has used the voice-recognition software Dragon Speak (or I think that is what it is called). I saw a review recently of it and IBM's Naturally Speaking. Naturally Speaking is evidently $100 cheaper, but only works with one app, while Dragon Speak took much less time to train, and has add-ons for several apps. Would love to hear if these actually work! Jan <>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<> Jan C. Wright Wright Information Indexing Services jancw@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw <>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:21:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: American Name Society list (ANS-L) Jennifer, According to the American Name Society home page at http://ssie.binghamton.edu/admin/anshomep.html "The ANS-L email discussion list provides a forum for questions, information and announcements regarding names and the Society. To join this listserve send the message: SUB ANS-L FIRSTNAME LASTNAME to: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu" so it looks like you don't have to be a member of the society to join the discussion list. At 10:16 AM 1/12/98 -0500, Jennifer Dye wrote: >Cynthia, > >What is the purpose of the American Name Society discussion list (ANS-L)? >Is it open to people outside of the society? > >Jennifer > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services Editor-in-Chief, Key Words, American Society of Indexers cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: leditor@frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? Ann Norcross wrote: >Specific product recommendations would be a huge help. What product >are you using now that you are so happy with? I'll be glad to give anyone who asks this information off-list. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:13:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Wellisch's views Simon asked for indexers' experience regarding three points made by Hans Wellisch. Here goes: 1) Alphabetization by first word of subheading, no matter what that word is: Odd. I can't see how that could be useful to anyone. Surely the essential element is the first word of the key phrase, so that prepositions, conjunctions, and even "effect on ..." will be ignored. My Cindex manual says, "You will usually want to ignore leading prepositions and articles when you alphabetize subheadings," and maintains a default list of these, a fair indication of contemporary practice. 2) Subheadings beginning with "and": Whether indexers use "and" or not has been a matter for discussion on Index-L several times, indicating that it's a perennial topic. It's customary in a run-in index (I think) and a matter of personal taste (?) in an indented index. Whether it's to be used at all, depends, I should think, on the nature of the work being indexed and the index itself. I would not use it in an index to a manual or textbook, e.g., where I would end up with strings of "and's" in columns of subheadings; but I would if I'm otherwise using prepositions for the sake of clarity. In an index to an academic work, where the relationships between and among concepts need to be more intricately and subtlely expressed, I would be using "and," but also prepositions. Many of us who use "and", at least in some circumstances, always place it after the key phrase in an indented index (and before in a run-in index), wanting the key phrase to stand out. However, if I'm also using lots of prepositions in the index, I put the word "and" where it belongs, syntactically. 3) Filing Scottish and Irish names beginning with variations on "mac" as spelled is current filing practice, as far as I know--everything I consult files the macs thus. This is in conformity with your first point about filing subheadings by the first word no matter what. The simple idiocy of filing everything alphabetically suits computerization (ugly word), of course--and I won't get on to what I think it says about current education practices. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@planet.eon.net 10979 123 Street Edmonton, AB T5M 0E1 Canada phone 403-452-8325 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:47:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Alphabetizing subheadings (WAS: QUERY: Wellisch's views, how acceptable?) In-Reply-To: Richard Evans "Re: QUERY: Wellisch's views, how acceptable?" (Jan 12, 9:33am) >Is this true? Do people usually now alphabetize subheadings by the first >word, whatever it may be? I think this trend toward what I unfairly think of as laziness is often caused by computer limitations. An application that is not designed to sort smartly (such as most indexing software) will not know the difference between important words and unimportant words. Also, some indexing software is designed by the companies that use them -- because they require something special for other reasons -- and they skimp on the alphabetizing sort algorithms so that they can enhance something that is more relevant to their goals. (For example, Web indexing can be enhanced in lots of ways that might be more important than in what order the links show up on the page.) "Laziness" is an unfair term for this. But I think designing an application to create indexes without designing special add-on algorithms for special sorting procedures is a bit lazy (or at least representative of a mild lack of consumer-needs research). Still, it's a trend. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:14:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Chapter meeting at Seattle As some of you know, the North Carolina chapter was formed at last year's conference. I understand that at this year's conference we should hold a chapter meeting and install new officers for the coming year. Can someone who has arranged such a meeting give me pointers on how to set it up and what the agenda should be? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:40:57 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Wellisch's views In-Reply-To: <199801121716.MAA29111@camel10.mindspring.com> I know it sounds odd, but at least one user test I have seen has shown that people can't figure out why certain words are ignored and don't undertand it. In embedded indexing, for the most part, you cannot control it anyway, so I write around the problem and do not use leading prepositions if I can. As an aside, when I was a librarian, I found that no one understood letter by letter sorting, and I had to spend a lot of time explaining it. This was during an extensive (3,000 participant) self-paced library skills training class, where students in college had to complete ten exercises using library reference materials. Every time they hit one with letter by letter, they got lost and came for help. (I was working the help desk for these students, so I got direct experience with the problem over and over again). So I recommend against using that system, although I know lots of publishers use it. At 10:13 AM 1/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >Simon asked for indexers' experience regarding three points made by Hans >Wellisch. Here goes: > >1) Alphabetization by first word of subheading, no matter what that word is: > >Odd. I can't see how that could be useful to anyone. Surely the essential >element is the first word of the key phrase, so that prepositions, >conjunctions, and even "effect on ..." will be ignored. My Cindex manual >says, "You will usually want to ignore leading prepositions and articles >when you alphabetize subheadings," and maintains a default list of these, a >fair indication of contemporary practice. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:43:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Wellisch's views At 10:13 AM 1/12/1998 -0700, Noeline Bridge wrote: >3) Filing Scottish and Irish names beginning with variations on "mac" as >spelled is current filing practice, as far as I know--everything I consult >files the macs thus. This is in conformity with your first point about >filing subheadings by the first word no matter what. The simple idiocy of >filing everything alphabetically suits computerization (ugly word), of >course--and I won't get on to what I think it says about current education >practices. Noeline, I think I'm confused! :-) I don't normally have a lot of "Mac" names in my indexes, but this question does come up occasionally for me. Can you give an example of what you're talking about here? To me, "as spelled" means M' comes before Mac, which comes before Mc. Is that correct? That's how I would do it; I always disliked the old rule of treating everything as if it began "Mac" when it doesn't. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:43:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Alphabetizing subheadings (WAS: QUERY: Wellisch's views, how acceptable?) At 12:47 PM 1/12/1998 -0500, Seth A. Maislin wrote: >I think this trend toward what I unfairly think of as laziness is often caused >by computer limitations. An application that is not designed to sort smartly >(such as most indexing software) will not know the difference between >important words and unimportant words. I don't know about "most" indexing software, but Macrex automatically ignores certain prepositions and other beginning words, and you can edit that list to include (or un-include) any other terms you want to ignore during the sort procedure. I believe Cindex operates the same way, and I would expect that any professional program would do the same. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:20:45 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: suggestion In-Reply-To: <199801120508.XAA12058@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Susan, I took a look at the Index-L FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), and >there's nothing in there at all about chat versus "substantive" posting. Nor >are there rules spelled out about other sorts of information being posted to >the list. There is a whole section of the FAQ devoted to netiquette (including what it's appropriate to post). For those who didn't save it, here it is: >---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the >business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- >book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate >future form of indexing. It also includes meeting >announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and >questions/answers about software/equipment. > >---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated >to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie >recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, >dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not >exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be >legitimately related to indexing, they may be appropriate.) > >---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted >messages. > >--Other guidelines related to keeping the list free of clutter >and strife > > ---Refrain from sending comments without content such as "I > agree" or "right on" or "me too", "thanks", or "welcome". > This type of message is best sent directly to the person > you are responding to. (An exception to this would be a > global thanks for information or assistance provided by > several people.) > > ---When surveying the group for information that requires a > brief answer, such as "how many of you are librarians?" or > "who uses XYZ software?", please invite respondents to reply > to you directly and offer to summarize for the list. > > ---Avoid quoting long messages when responding to a post. > Quote segments just long enough to let others know what you > are responding to. > > ---Fire prevention. If possible, try not to respond to > postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases > that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before > replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense > was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the > person personally. > > ---If you are having technical problems, please contact the > listowner directly (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu). > > ---For a more extensive treatment of netiquette issues see > the following site on the world wide web: > http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/netiquette.html Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:25:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? In-Reply-To: <199801120508.XAA12058@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Yes, you can add words to the existing dictionary. Yes, it has been >tried. Yes, it will read into applications other than Word. This does >not mean that all voice recognition software can accomplish these >objectives or that all such software does it in the same way. Not all >voice recognition software is created equal. > >I routinely use a natural speech product which in infinitely better than >the discrete speech software I previously used both in terms of speed of >dictation and accuracy of recognition. Quite literally, I cannot talk >faster than it can pick up the words (and I live in New York). Training >the software is a breeze. > >Larry Edmonson Larry, are you using Mac, DOS, or Windows? Thanks. Are any of you Mac users using scanning pens yet? That might be even quicker than voice recognition. I understand you can "tab delineate" with a button on the pen. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:08:37 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGWeaver Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Wellisch's views In a message dated 98-01-12 14:49:19 EST, you write: << I don't normally have a lot of "Mac" names in my indexes, but this question does come up occasionally for me. Can you give an example of what you're talking about here? To me, "as spelled" means M' comes before Mac, which comes before Mc. Is that correct? That's how I would do it; I always disliked the old rule of treating everything as if it began "Mac" when it doesn't. >> Quite frankly, I don't know what the current library standard is; but in the "olden days" when I learned to do card catalog filing as a student assistant, all names beginning with Mac or Mc were interfiled as Mac. Carolyn Weaver ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:31:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: suggestion At 11:20 AM 1/12/1998 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: >There is a whole section of the FAQ devoted to netiquette (including what >it's appropriate to post). For those who didn't save it, here it is: Carol, I didn't find this in my copy (which I printed out from what I thought was a complete copy I downloaded about two years ago). Thanks for reprinting it here and now. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:33:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CccJlc Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: reference sources: plant names Hello, all: I am busy working on another sample, have entered the (painful) editing process, and some questions have come up that I know you will have some good answers for. First, a little information about the book: It is a short book about wildflowers with lots of illustrations. I have decided to do a separate "Plant Index by Scientific Names". I'd like recommendations for a good reference book (or web site) that covers plant names, English and scientific, so that I can answer questions and/or reassure myself about certain plants. For example, day lilies are not lilies, right? :-) Are marsh marigolds really marigolds? That kind of thing. Why do some plants have only one name? \iClarkia\I Should I try to double post English and scientific names? For example: Texas bluebonnets, 4, 9 \iLupinus subcarnosus\I, 9 Should I put p. 4 as a reference in the scientific name? Should I make each pair's locators match even if it is not obvious from the text? Or would this be confusing? This is not what you would consider to be a scholarly book, :-), more of an introduction to the wonders of flowers. Throughout the text, places where the flowers grow are mentioned; insects, religion, animals are also mentioned. I don't really think a heading like "California" would be useful in this book because where the flowers grow seems to be peripheral information. I feel the same about some of the mentions of bees, butterflies, insects, etc. Comments? The book is not "about" those things, so should they have headings? Or should I stick to the things that definitely relate to the main theme of the book? Off to inquire about the gardening SIG... Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:08:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "James L. Murphy" Subject: Re: Wellisch's views Carolyn, Not so olden that I don't remember them; but no more. Here's a screen from our current on-line catalog: 1 McLintock, W. F. P. (William Francis Porter), 1887- ... 1 entry 2 McLintock, William Francis Porter, 1887- --> See MCLINT 1 entry 3 M'Clintock, William L., Capt., ........................ 1 entry 4 M'Clise, D. (Daniel), 1806-1870 --> See MACLISE, DANIEL 1 entry 5 MCLLDOON, NICOLA ...................................... 1 entry 6 McLoda, N. A --> See MCLODA, NILES A .................. 1 entry 7 McLoda, Niles A ....................................... 4 entries 8 McLoghlen, Diana ...................................... 1 entry And if you are wondering who NICOLA MCLLDOON is, so am I. Capital letters indicate a brief (often inaccurate, as in this case) record. I think the filing rule "Mc as Mac" changed when the Library of Congress automated. Jim Murphy murphy.11@osu.edu At 03:08 PM 1/12/98 -0500, CGWeaver wrote: > >Quite frankly, I don't know what the current library standard is; but in the >"olden days" when I learned to do card catalog filing as a student assistant, >all names beginning with Mac or Mc were interfiled as Mac. > >Carolyn Weaver > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:17:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: reference sources: plant names -Reply You should make the references to the scientific name and the standard name parallel. If an index user only knows the plant in question as a spider plant, they might not know to look under airplane plant (another common name) or whatever the Latin name is, and they shouldn't have to flip to the page, find the scientific name, and flip back and look under that entry, too. As for including the scientific names, I think this is one of those preference issues-- there isn't a right or wrong, only a preference. Even if you have separate indexes, though, you still need to make them parallel. I have a couple of plant reference books at home, but I don't have the names here with me at work. If you don't have any responses by tomorrow, I'll bring them in for you. As for the peripheral material, the questions you need to ask yourself are "Would an index user look for that information?" (probably not) and "Can this entry be completed?" This latter question is best illustrated by the entry you mentioned for California. Unless you can list all of the plants in the book which grow in California (which would probably mean duplicating the entire index!), if you only mention one or two then the entry is not complete. This can be a hinderance to a user who looks at your entry and thinks that it is comprehensive. Of course, all rules are made to be broken, but I find that a good rule of thumb is not to start a heading that can't be exhausted. For this practice index, it may not be that big of a deal, but if you ever index research-type books, this is a very important rule! You can really throw your reader off if you fail to exhaust a heading! Sounds like a fun project! Good luck! -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:41:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Names beginning with Mac Sonsie: I was careless in my wording and didn't distinguish properly between sorted as if spelled out as Mac, and sorted as they appear. However, your example depends on recognizing the apostrophe. AACR2, disregarding the apostrophe, gives the following example of names sorted as they appear: Macmillan McAdoo McAllister M'Carthy McAuley The same, sorted as if spelled out as beginning with Mac, would result in: McAdoo McAllister McAuley M'Carthy Macmillan Perhaps other authorities would treat the apostrophe differently. If I had begun the word "mac" with a capital M, as I should have, my posting would have been clearer. Also, I should have omitted my closing, embryo crack about educational practices: this whole matter had set me wondering what assumptions previous, more subtle filing practices had made regarding what users should know from their education--whether our newer practices were a "dumbing-down"--which I realized was irrelevant and was going to lead me into deep water, but I sent the message before I remembered to delete this last bit. I apologise for confusing (or possibly upsetting) anyone. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@planet.eon.net 10979 123 Street Edmonton, AB T5M 0E1 Canada phone 403-452-8325 BRIDGEWORK nbridge@planet.eon.net 10979 123 Street Edmonton, AB T5M 0E1 Canada phone 403-452-8325 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:03:28 -0400 Reply-To: leditor@frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? Carol Roberts wrote in reference to voice recognition: > > Larry, are you using Mac, DOS, or Windows? Thanks. > >Are any of you Mac users using scanning pens yet? That might be even >quicker than voice recognition. I understand you can "tab delineate" >with a button on the pen. 1. I use Windows. Prior to the advent of CINDEX for Windows, I converted Word Perfect files to tab-delineated files for DOS when they needed to go to CINDEX. 2. I also use a scanning pen on my IBM-compatible. While it paid for itself on one particular type of non-indexing work I do, I generally find the scanning pen does not produce adequate recognition of the characters being scanned. This is a function of the type of material I often work with rather than the scanning pen. The stuff I work on often is loaded with printing codes, hyphens and dashes and is printed on low-grade paper, all of which effects character recognition negatively. I would judge the scanning pen to be slower than the natural speech voice recognition software I now use; the scanning pen is faster than the discrete speech software I formerly used. Larry Larry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:02:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Wellisch's views: sorting apostrophes At 11:43 AM 1/12/98 -0800, Sonsie wrote Noeline: >. . . >I don't normally have a lot of "Mac" names in my indexes, but this question >does come up occasionally for me. Can you give an example of what you're >talking about here? To me, "as spelled" means M' comes before Mac, which >comes before Mc. Is that correct? That's how I would do it; I always >disliked the old rule of treating everything as if it began "Mac" when it >doesn't. > > =Sonsie= Sonsie: I file headings beginning with M', Mac, and Mc in this order same as you do. What's interesting to me is that in filing M' before Mac we're choosing to give the apostrophe a filing value, which runs contrary to the more conventional practice of ignoring it. Just yesterday I came across another case in which I decided to sort an apostrophe: I filed "hummingbird's trumpet (California fuschia)" ahead of "hummingbirds" in a word-by-word sort. With that, I wondered whether there were any case in which I would _not_ want to sort an apostrophe, could not think of one, and then decided to go ahead and change its filing value in my Macrex character translation table from ignore to "@", which files it after a space but before any letter. Of course this is an experiment for indexes in which I'm free do what I think works best for most readers, so if you think or anybody else thinks of a case in which sorting an apostrophe in word-by-word sorts would not be appropriate, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Michael P.S. It just occurred to me that sorting apostrophes would make a very significant and presumably most beneficial difference in an index including Chinese terms as romanized in the Wade-Giles system. All the headings beginning with the letter p', for example, would be filed ahead of all the headings beginning with the letter p (a quite different letter). Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:20:30 -0800 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny McLaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Insurance Question by Newbie?? The American Society for Information Science (ASIS) offers various health insurance options to members (and is a useful organization for indexers). The site is http://www.asis.org The National Association for the Self-Employed offers plans also, including plans specific to various states. See their site at http://selfemployed.nasc.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:35:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? In-Reply-To: <199801121706.JAA00633@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 10:10 AM 1/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >Ann Norcross wrote: > >>Specific product recommendations would be a huge help. What product >are you > using now that you are so happy with? > > >I'll be glad to give anyone who asks this information off-list. > >Larry Edmonson Please share this onlist unless your reason for sharing it only offlist is to protect someone's privacy or something similar! I, for one, am very interested and surely others are. Why is everyone so afraid to say anything onlist these days? I'm really starting to get annoyed (not at you, Larry, but at those who force others into self-censorship) that some folks have a disproportionate capacity to intimidate so many into over-reticence here. Come on, folks! This is everyone's list, not the fief of the few! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:43:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Names beginning with Mac At 02:41 PM 1/12/1998 -0700, Noeline Bridge wrote: > I was careless in my wording and didn't distinguish properly between >sorted as if spelled out as Mac, and sorted as they appear. > However, your example depends on recognizing the apostrophe. AACR2, >disregarding the apostrophe, gives the following example of names sorted as >they appear: > >Macmillan >McAdoo >McAllister >M'Carthy >McAuley Ah! The light dawns! :-) Thanks for the further explanation. I really do prefer the first sort (reprinted here) and I'm glad that's the way TPTB now look at the situation. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:33:48 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: WEBIX - new version and Web indexing training Hi I am the director of WWWalker Web Development. See my URL: http://www.wwwalker.com.au I am developing WEBIX a tool I developed with several others for the inaugural Web Indexing Prize of the Australian Society of Indexers. Please see http://www.wwwalker.com.au/webix.html for a complete run-down on support options, links to the current software (which many of you have tried and loathe) and my pointers to better software. In spite of its shortcomings, this kicked off a very worthwhile prize which is showing up the diversity in Web database design, creative intermingling of multimedia and information retrieval and the freshness the Web is bringing to the publishing field. Training This is a short announcement that I will be conducting online training in Web indexing in 1998. Details to follow. This will be via interactive tutorials on WWWalker's Web Site, ICQ chat sessions, internet phone connections etc etc... I am offering this world-wide as long as you can speak English :) It will be on a fee-for-service basis as distinct from the freebie mentality of the Web as a whole - it is the only way I can remain viable as a small startup... so please don't try to get free support. I am open to barters though - I need new equipment and contacts in other countries such as the USA, Canada, NZ and UK. Contact me if you are interested in getting a Web indexing program going at your centre. All the best Dwight Walker Director WWWalker Web Development ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker, Sydney, Australia tel +61-2-98902691, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) WWWalker Web Development: http://www.wwwalker.com.au Australian Society of Indexers: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi Sydney Linux Users Group: http://www.slug.org.au Waverley Randwick Philharmonic http://www.wwwalker.com.au/wrps.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:50:37 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Mentoring roundtable Ann Norcross wrote: > Dick Evans and I will be running the mentoring roundtable at the > American Society of Indexers' conference in Seattle in May. We'd like > some comments and suggestions from beginning and experienced indexers > on: > > Where you'd like to see the emphasis: being a mentor; being mentored; > financial aspects of mentoring; workload; communication; scheduling; > competition, etc, etc. Having been a mentor, I would emphasize the communication aspect in relation to all the other items you mention. It's very important to be up front and to ensure that the competition issue is discussed, because it is often an underlying fear for the mentor until a long-term trust is developed. My protoge and I have a finder's fee system to mitigate this problem, so that the person who obtained the client gets a fee if she doesn't actually do the index, but passes on the job to the protoge. It sets a tone of fairness, and I have found that there seems to be plenty of work to go around. The mentor also gets first dibs on projects from her own clients, even if they call the protoge first. > > Roundtable structure: Talking vs. listening? If you are in a > mentoring arrangement, do you have information you want to share with > the group? If I get a chance to go to this roundtable, I would want to share our arrangement in order to help others. > > Outcomes: What do you expect to walk away with? Information in your > head? On a handout? What questions do you want answered? Handouts are cool. I'd like to know what techniques others use to keep the relationship on a professional level (do they have a standing subcontract with each other, for instance?) Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:38:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Beginners' workshop, redux Sorry to be repetitive, but since I haven't yet received very much feedback on what might be good material/techniques for a beginning indexing workshop at the ASI national meeting in Seattle, I thought I'd ask again. The recent unpleasantness on the list may have burned up my query in the flames. Please, I would really appreciate your views, particularly what beginners would like to learn. Remember, this will be an indexing workshop, not a business start-up thing, so I need to know what you'd like to know about the indexing process. Thanks. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:00:20 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anntrue Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? Hi all, There was a recent brief review on speech recognition software in either _Smart Computing_ or _PC World_. There are two types of programs: those that recognise discrete speech (ie., words spoken slowly and discretely) and a more sophisticated type which can recognise normal conversational speech. The _Dragon_ one is the latter type. According to this review, the second type is much easier to program to recognise your speech and sounds a lot more useful, unless you just want the program to recognise voice commands to your computer. Of course, the price tag is significantly higher! Try checking the library for this review, or _Smart Computing_ at www.smartcomputing. com _PC World_ at www.pcworld.com Sorry I can't give you more specific info. I thought it very interesting, but not something I could invest in anytime soon, so I only glanced at the review in passing. I'd be interested in hearing more from people who have used these programs. Ann Truesdale anntrue@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:33:48 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: WEBIX - new version and Web indexing training Hi I am the director of WWWalker Web Development. See my URL: http://www.wwwalker.com.au I am developing WEBIX a tool I developed with several others for the inaugural Web Indexing Prize of the Australian Society of Indexers. Please see http://www.wwwalker.com.au/webix.html for a complete run-down on support options, links to the current software (which many of you have tried and loathe) and my pointers to better software. In spite of its shortcomings, this kicked off a very worthwhile prize which is showing up the diversity in Web database design, creative intermingling of multimedia and information retrieval and the freshness the Web is bringing to the publishing field. Training This is a short announcement that I will be conducting online training in Web indexing in 1998. Details to follow. This will be via interactive tutorials on WWWalker's Web Site, ICQ chat sessions, internet phone connections etc etc... I am offering this world-wide as long as you can speak English :) It will be on a fee-for-service basis as distinct from the freebie mentality of the Web as a whole - it is the only way I can remain viable as a small startup... so please don't try to get free support. I am open to barters though - I need new equipment and contacts in other countries such as the USA, Canada, NZ and UK. Contact me if you are interested in getting a Web indexing program going at your centre. All the best Dwight Walker Director WWWalker Web Development ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker, Sydney, Australia tel +61-2-98902691, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) WWWalker Web Development: http://www.wwwalker.com.au Australian Society of Indexers: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi Sydney Linux Users Group: http://www.slug.org.au Waverley Randwick Philharmonic http://www.wwwalker.com.au/wrps.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:35:41 -0800 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: reference sources: plant names Chris wrote: I'd like recommendations for a good reference book (or web site) that covers plant names, English and scientific... _Hortus Botanicus_ is the definitive reference book. ...day lilies are not lilies, right?... Are marsh marigolds really marigolds? That kind of thing. Gardening book indexes, like cookbook indexes, might seem deceptively simple at first, and then you fall into the mire of decision making about all these sorts of things. You must decide early on whether to double post or post at the Latin name only, with cross references from all possible common names. You must also decide whether to put the common name(s) in parentheses after the Latin name. Your answers will depend on how much space you are allowed for the index. You will tear out your hair sometimes when space is very limited. Why do some plants have only one name? \iClarkia\I This happens when the common name and Latin name coincide. If you are indexing by Latin names, you would put _Clarkia_ species (or _Clarkia_ sp. or _Clarkia_ spp.) >Should I try to double post English and scientific names? For example: >Texas bluebonnets, 4, 9 >\iLupinus subcarnosus\I, 9 > >Should I put p. 4 as a reference in the scientific name? Should I make each pair's locators match?... See the statement above about posting at Latin names, or double posting. You can't do half and half. Your text should be the guide to determining whether to index "peripheral" information. If the information is relevant to finding, identifying, growing, or harvesting wildflowers, then by all means index it. If it is peripheral, then don't. Deciding what to index is your job, and your art. Good luck! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:33:43 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CccJlc Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: reference sources: plant names -Reply In a message dated 98-01-12 16:19:48 EST, you write: > You should make the references to the scientific name > and the standard name parallel. If an index user only > knows the plant in question as a spider plant, they > might not know to look under airplane plant (another > common name) or whatever the Latin name is, and > they shouldn't have to flip to the page, find the scientific > name, and flip back and look under that entry, too. Sharon- So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is this: (And I will try to clarify the original question a bit, too.) On p. 4, "...when Texas bluebonnets...." On p. 9, "...the state flower, Texas bluebonnet (\iLupinus subcarnosus\I)... My entries should appear this way: Texas bluebonnet, 4, 9 \iLupinus subcarnosus\I, 4, 9 right? And I found you explanation of completing the entry to be very useful in deciding what to leave out. Thanks! Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:33:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CccJlc Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: index for high school yearbooks Has anyone approached high schools (or other institutions) about writing indexes for yearbooks? I was thinking of trying this and would welcome any comment. Did you make any money, do it as a volunteer, etc.? Time involved? Amount of headaches involved? :-) Thanks, Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Michaud Subject: glossary Hi, all, I just received a call from someone who wanted to know if I could write a glossary and an index for a textbook. Now, I'm a newbie, I'll be done with the USDA course soon, but I've not actually done this before. I'm not even really marketing myself yet, but this fellow had heard from someone else that I knew something about indexes, and since he had never apparently heard of a professional indexer before, he called me. Anyhow, this job isn't imminent, but he wanted to know approximately how much an index would cost, and how the process worked. I told him the basics - no problem there. But I didn't know what to say about the glossary. Is it common for the indexer to be asked to do a glossary as well? If you do glossaries, how much do you charge for that? Do you charge per page of text, as with the index? I had thought that the author generally wrote the glossary, but perhaps I was wrong. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. Christine Michaud Michaud Editorial Services cmichaud@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:04:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Insurance Question by Newbie?? In-Reply-To: <199801130530.XAA28392@mixcom.mixcom.com> >After completing the salary survey which included questions on insurance, I >took the results to several national companies. Most did not respond to my >letters. The ones that did, indicated that we did not have enough interest for >them to quote low enough rates to get people to sign up. In additional to Blue >Cross, there is the National Association of Self Employed (I think that is the >name). We were supposed to meet, but the representative cancelled the >appointment and it has never been rescheduled. I will try to meet with her >yet. Sandi Schroeder I have disability insurance through Mutual of Omaha because of a low rate they offer to STC members. My agent told me he'd be very interested in talking to ASI about group rates for insurance (they do all sorts, of course), and he borrowed one of my copies of Key Words to learn a bit about the organization. I got the impression (from him and from the STC thing) that it's possible to get insurance companies to offer low rates to groups even if they aren't producing (officially) a "group plan." In other words, Mutual of Omaha doesn't offer an STC group plan as such, but they offer lower rates to members of STC (I guess it's a legal distinction). I wonder whether ASI should approach them about this. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:26:00 +0000 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Re: Wellisch's views Dear fellow-indexellers Janet Shuter (ISO project leader for ISO 999:1996) has asked me to pass on the following: ISO 999 8.6 para 3 says "in the case of concept headings which begin with prepositions or conjunctions [see 7.2.2.5] a decision may be made to ignore the prepositions or conjunctions for filing purposes. Such a decision should apply to the index as a whole and be recorded in an introductory note." 7.2.2.5 says "prepositions should as far as possible be used only if their absence might cause ambiguity." & gives examples. by 7.2.2.5 his "and" statement is clearly true. 8.6 goes on to say proper names & titles should be constructed according to rules in 7.3 & filed accordingly. 7.3 goes into great detail about circumstances when articles etc in proper names should be retained first, rotated or discarded altogether & is too long to quote. Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:07:58 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: suggestion In-Reply-To: <199801130530.XAA28392@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Carol, I didn't find this in my copy (which I printed out from what I >thought was a complete copy I downloaded about two years ago). Thanks for >reprinting it here and now. > > =Sonsie= No problem. And I'm glad you took that in the spirit in which it was intended. I was in no way criticizing you. I just know that sometimes stuff gets lost or whatever. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:06:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Chicago/Great Lakes meeting The second indexer chat for the Chicago/Great Lakes chapter is scheduled for January 31 at 11:30 till 1:30 or later at the Note address correction!!!! Suparossa Restaurant, 4256 N. Central Ave., Chicago. Admission will be $10.00 at the door and whatever you wish to order from the menu. Sorry for the confusion. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:01:56 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chantal Hamill Organization: Steedman Ramage Subject: Re: Alphabetizing subheadings (WAS: QUERY: Wellisch's views, how acceptable?) Nothing to do with laziness, and everything to do with rigorous thinking. Indexing is all about alphabetical order and messing up with it is both sloppy and deeply misleading to users. It is up to us to use words which are meaningful. Prepositions are generally a bad idea, and used far too liberally in indexes. If they are used - which should be rarely - they should follow the rules of the alphabet, which is what is expected by users. Failure to do this, especially in complex indexes, result in total muddle. A lazy indexer. Chantal Hamill Scotland. Seth A. Maislin wrote: > > >Is this true? Do people usually now alphabetize subheadings by the first > >word, whatever it may be? > > I think this trend toward what I unfairly think of as laziness is often caused > by computer limitations. An application that is not designed to sort smartly > (such as most indexing software) will not know the difference between > important words and unimportant words. Also, some indexing software is > designed by the companies that use them -- because they require something > special for other reasons -- and they skimp on the alphabetizing sort > algorithms so that they can enhance something that is more relevant to > their goals. (For example, Web indexing can be enhanced in lots of ways > that might be more important than in what order the links show up on the > page.) > > "Laziness" is an unfair term for this. But I think designing an application > to create indexes without designing special add-on algorithms for special > sorting procedures is a bit lazy (or at least representative of a mild lack of > consumer-needs research). Still, it's a trend. > > - Seth > > -- > Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) > > O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services > 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street > Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 > (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 > (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com > URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth > Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:05:47 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Goodman Subject: Re: reference sources: plant names: book title answer Try The Plant Book by D.J. Mabberley. It has never steered me wrong and always has the answers I need. Jessica Goodman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Mullinix Subject: Re: reference sources: plant names In-Reply-To: <199801122049.PAA06057@ kis.net> >I'd like recommendations for a good reference book (or web site) that covers >plant names, English and scientific, so that I can answer questions and/or >reassure myself about certain plants. For example, day lilies are not lilies, >right? :-) Are marsh marigolds really marigolds? That kind of thing. Hi, Chris -- Are you familiar with the gardening launch pad? It is at http://www.tpoint.net/neighbor/ On that page there is a chart of categories, all of which are interesting. For instance, if you click on "databases," you are taken to a long list of available data bases. From there you might select "USDA database," then choose "access database," then "query database." You can query by common name, genus, species, etc. For instance, I entered "daylily" and received a page of information on Hemerocalis. However, "marsh marigold" got nothing. (I didn't try Caltha palustris, its Latin name.) I HAVE YET TO DISCOVER AN ELECTRONIC EQUIVALENT OF HORTUS THIRD--IF ANYBODY OUT THERE HAS FOUND ONE, I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT IT. Reference books run the gamut from RHS Dictionary at about $800 (condensed version edited by Mark Griffiths to only 60,000 plants is about $60) through Hortus Third at about $150 to Allen Coombes' Dictionary of Plant Names (about $11). I am sure there are many more that I am not familiar with. >Why do some plants have only one name? \iClarkia\I I think there are a number of reasons why people sometimes refer to plant by genus only: o they really are talking only about the group and no particular specie s, o they have established what species they are talking about and find no need to repeat it, o they are referring to a cultivar that is such a complex hybrid that y ou really can't say it is one species or another (the commercial name takes over), and o there must be other reasons that don't occur to me at the moment. If I can help you privately, please do not hesitate to e-mail me. There is nothing I love so much as talking plants. (don't know what genus and species those are) Barb Mullinix Beeline Index Writing Service Emmitsburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:57:03 -0400 Reply-To: leditor@frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Why offlist Friends, Several of you have requested on- and off-list that I spell out my preferences for voice recognition vendors on-list and have suggested that I have somehow been intimidated from doing so by the recent argument concerning what marketing information belongs on index-l and what does not. Please let me assure you that I am neither intimidated nor bashful. I just don't do commercial endorsements. It's that simple. Thus, I must respectfully decline to go on-list to recommend a product. Identifying the product off-list is as far as I am willing to compromise my beliefs. This is not to suggest that those of you who exchange product information on-list are wrong in doing so. We just view life from different perspectives and accord different priorities to various values. Indeed, under my philosophy, it is possible for both sides to be right. Newbies wanting an introduction to the fundamentals of voice recognition might consult my article in a past issue of KeyWords where I discussed the use of voice recognition in indexing. This article was based on considerable independent research as well as conversations with industry insiders. One final word concerning the recent unpleasantness on index-l. Let's put it behind us and try in future to follow the verbal equivalent of the carpenter's rule: Measure twice and cut once. Think twice before e-mailing. It's just plain poor marketing to slander oneself by speaking too hastily in such a public venue. (A few on both sides of the recent dispute can be said to have spoken rather hastily.) Larry Edmonson ...former habitue of The Quiet Answer, a '60's era coffee shop whose name always seemed particularly evocative, unlike its competitor, The Wreck of the Hesperus, whose name seems at times to have presaged some net lists. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: reference sources: plant names -Reply -Reply That's what I meant. I think that makes the index more complete and useful, but that's only one opinion. :-) -- Sharon W. >>> CccJlc 01/13/98 02:33pm >>> In a message dated 98-01-12 16:19:48 EST, you write: > You should make the references to the scientific name > and the standard name parallel. If an index user only > knows the plant in question as a spider plant, they > might not know to look under airplane plant (another > common name) or whatever the Latin name is, and > they shouldn't have to flip to the page, find the scientific > name, and flip back and look under that entry, too. Sharon- So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is this: (And I will try to clarify the original question a bit, too.) On p. 4, "...when Texas bluebonnets...." On p. 9, "...the state flower, Texas bluebonnet (\iLupinus subcarnosus\I)... My entries should appear this way: Texas bluebonnet, 4, 9 \iLupinus subcarnosus\I, 4, 9 right? And I found you explanation of completing the entry to be very useful in deciding what to leave out. Thanks! Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:35:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: reference sources: plant names -Reply -Reply To further clarify, I find that the easiest way to cross check these names is to wait until I've completed all of my index entries and then make sure that the main headings are parallel. In other words, once you've finished, compare the headings "Texas bluebonnet" and "\iLupinus subcarnosus\I" and make sure that the references match. However, the procedure may depend on what program you are using. Just my further .02... -- Sharon W. >>> CccJlc 01/13/98 02:33pm >>> In a message dated 98-01-12 16:19:48 EST, you write: > You should make the references to the scientific name > and the standard name parallel. If an index user only > knows the plant in question as a spider plant, they > might not know to look under airplane plant (another > common name) or whatever the Latin name is, and > they shouldn't have to flip to the page, find the scientific > name, and flip back and look under that entry, too. Sharon- So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is this: (And I will try to clarify the original question a bit, too.) On p. 4, "...when Texas bluebonnets...." On p. 9, "...the state flower, Texas bluebonnet (\iLupinus subcarnosus\I)... My entries should appear this way: Texas bluebonnet, 4, 9 \iLupinus subcarnosus\I, 4, 9 right? And I found you explanation of completing the entry to be very useful in deciding what to leave out. Thanks! Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:28:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CccJlc Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Beginners' workshop, redux Joanne- As a beginner, I find it r-e-l-a-t-i-v-e-l-y easy to choose the terms that I might want to include in the index, but when I get through the text and then start to edit, look out! I always get this feeling that I haven't had a clue as to what I was doing and I was just kidding myself the whole time. ;-) So........for me, it would be most useful to have the exercise to do before the workshop even begins, do the first round of term selection, and spend the workshop time turning that rough, rough draft into something that might actually be useful. But, perhaps what I need is an editing workshop and not a beginner workshop....... Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:49:27 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Wellisch's views Many thanks to all of you who have responded to my query about Wellisch's views. I won't list all your names individually -- you know who you are -- but I'm very grateful indeed to all of you for your comments and thoughts. I'm beginning to think I really am going to have to fork out $NZ180 for ISO 999 after all. But not yet, please G*d, not just yet! From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:25:12 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: index for high school yearbooks Great idea Chris!! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:28:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: APOLOGY - for posting to list :-( Ok...I am beating my head against the wall and cursing a blue streak..I didn't mean to post that note to Chris to the list. Sorry :-( Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:08:31 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Software - voice recognition? Based on user experience reports, it is possible to use voice recognition software directly with Macrex. You'll need a Pentium with plenty of RAM so you can use Win95 and you will need to run Macrex "in a box". For those without such a system, there is still hope. I've now helped several people get going with different versions of voice recognition software, using it to do nearly all of the index entry. If anyone needs help, I hope they will give me a call. Gale Rhoades Macrex Support Office (North America) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:48:12 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Workshop on editing indexes [Was: Beginners' workshop, redux] At 12:28 PM 14/01/98 EST, Chris wrote: > >As a beginner, I find it r-e-l-a-t-i-v-e-l-y easy to choose the terms that I >might want to include in the index, but when I get through the text and then >start to edit, look out! I always get this feeling that I haven't had a clue >as to what I was doing and I was just kidding myself the whole time. ;-) >So........for me, it would be most useful to have the exercise to do before >the workshop even begins, do the first round of term selection, and spend the >workshop time turning that rough, rough draft into something that might >actually be useful. But, perhaps what I need is an editing workshop and not a >beginner workshop....... > >Chris >cccjlc@aol.com And, indeed, there will be a workshop on editing indexes, at the Seattle conference, run by Pilar Wyman and myself. Alan **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:26:54 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CccJlc Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Workshop on editing indexes [Was: Beginners' workshop, redux] In a message dated 98-01-14 15:40:29 EST, you write: > And, indeed, there will be a workshop on editing indexes, at the Seattle > conference, run by Pilar Wyman and myself. > > Alan > But I won't be there.......sigh :-( But I will be in Houston in March! :-) Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Yahoohigans? Can anyone tell me what the correct spelling is for this Internet service for children: Yahoohigans? ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:05:36 -0400 Reply-To: leditor@frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: Request for voice recognition information I inadvertently deleted a message requesting information on voice recognition before sending a response. If the person whose son is a poor typist would resend her message, I will send the information. Also, let me know whether your son will be using it for English themes, chemical equations, or whatever. Sorry. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Yahoohigans? In-Reply-To: <199801150159.AA16050@world.std.com> It's Yahooligans! I use it a lot in my children's computer lab at their elementary school. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:50:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Yahoohigans? At 08:03 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me what the correct spelling is for this Internet service >for children: Yahoohigans? > It's Yahooligans! Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:25:26 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: ISO 999 At 07:49 AM 15/01/98 +1300, Simon Cauchi wrote: > >I'm beginning to think I really am going to have to fork out $NZ180 for ISO >999 after all. But not yet, please G*d, not just yet! No, not just yet, Simon. We are in the process of getting ISO 999 adopted as an Australian standard, which will reduce the price in Australia, and this will certainly bring the price for New Zealanders down well below $NZ180. It should be available as an AS in a month or two. Alan **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ****************************************************************