From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 26-MAR-1998 05:26:07.02 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9801E" Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:42:50 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9801E" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:01:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Crowley Subject: Re: Cats (this is fluffy chat -- pun intended) In-Reply-To: <199801282219.QAA21708@relay2.mailsrvcs.net> As I write, my 6-mo. old tabby, Elsie, is pawing at the cursor as it wanders across the monitor, while my 14-year old manx, Cheerios, is purring away in my lap! This our normal routine! Julie Julie Moore Crowley Cataloger Stetson University College of Law St. Petersburg, FL * * Cataloging Rules! * * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:51:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Women in Scholarly Publishing list (WISP-L) Does anyone have the address of the listserver for the WISP-L discussion group? Thanks. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Editor-in-Chief, KEY WORDS, American Society of Indexers Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:56:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Spencer Subject: Re: Women in Scholarly Publishing list (WISP-L) To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU with the command: SUBSCRIBE WISP-L Contact the list owner at WISP-L-request@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU The above is from Catalist. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: ASI SIGS: Information Needed for KEY WORDS If you are in charge of a SIG for ASI, please contact me with information about your SIG's activities so that we can print something about your SIG in the March/April issue of KEY WORDS. Please include a contact e-mail address and phone number, too. Deadline for this is February 1. Thanks. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Editor-in-Chief, KEY WORDS, American Society of Indexers Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Cats...please desist In-Reply-To: <199801290600.BAA22256@library.lib.binghamton.edu> I am sorry, but I must ask the cat chat to stop. This is not appropriate= =20 for index-l and putting chat in the subject line does not alter this fact. If you have taken part in this discussion, please do not take this as a=20 personal reprimand. I was remiss in waiting to remind/inform of the policy= . Please know that I love cats, have one of my own. But, there are 800+=20 subscribers to this list who have subscribed because of the substantive=20 conversations about indexing. =20 From=20the index-l faq: The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is=20 appropriate. =AD=AD=ADAny topic related to indexing theory or practice or the business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-=ADf-the-=AD book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, job=20 postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about=20 software/equipment. =AD=AD=ADInappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive and= =20 if any of the above named topics can be legitimately related to indexing, it may appropriate.) =AD=AD=ADAlso inappropriate are advertisements or employment-wanted message= s. Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:09:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Description of this list In-Reply-To: <199703050005.AA10699@world.std.com> A friend of a friend asked for information on joining this list. Is there a document that describes what purpose of the list is, who might be interested, and also includes directions on how to join? If so, how do I get such a copy? Is there a LISTSRV command for this? I guess I'm looking for the document that might include the excerpt that Charlotte just sent us about guidelines for posting to the list. The only message I have saved is a technical description of using LISTSERV once I've joined. If you have a copy of this document, or know how to get it, please e-mail me privately. Thanks, Sarah Lemaire shl@world.std.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:11:45 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Continuous discussions with intervening illustrations It's interesting that one possible solution to this problem has been ignored, since it is no longer in use: passim. A page range of "1-4 passim" clearly and elegantly indicates the fact there there are only passing mentions over the page range, not continual discussion. That could also cover the case with intervening illustrations. The problem, of course, it that indexers have dropped the use of passim so readers are becoming unfamiliar with it. How about us all introducing it into our indexes when necessary and including a head not about it? Fred Leise ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: ASI SIGS: Information Needed for KEY WORDS In-Reply-To: Cynthia Bertelsen "ASI SIGS: Information Needed for KEY WORDS" (Jan 29, 9:00am) > Subject: ASI SIGS: Information Needed for KEY WORDS > If you are in charge of a SIG for ASI, please contact me with information > about your SIG's activities so that we can print something about your SIG in > the March/April issue of KEY WORDS. Please include a contact e-mail address > and phone number, too. Deadline for this is February 1. And, at the point that you are writing to Key Words with your SIG information, please Cc: me at seth@oreilly.com so that I can add SIG activity information to the ASI Web site. (ASI SIG information is available online at http://www.well.com/user.asi/sigs.htm .) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:49:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Passim Prior to becoming a professional indexer I never encountered the word "passim" in any of my readings, which have been voracious. I consider myself reasonably articulate and include words in my everyday vocabulary that I sometimes have to explain to others. I would be curious for a show of hands on the list how many other indexers (editors, proofreaders, and indexing aficianados) also were unaware of "passim" prior to entering the publishing field. This is not a criticism of Fred's suggestion that we begin to include "passim" (with explanatory headnote) in our indexes. I simply would like to know how many others shared my pre-indexing ignorance. Craig Brown p.s. My spellchecker rejected "passim." Seems to prefer "possum." ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 00:15:46 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Continuous discussions with intervening illustrations The message <199801281001.KAA23752@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from Christine Shuttleworth contains these words: > Or should I quietly = > omit all such trivial entries? This on the other = > hand would distort the index by not sufficiently = > conveying the subject's long-term close = > relationship with his parents. As Hazel Bell > has pointed out, the impact of such a long > string, in defiance of the accepted wisdom that > one should restrict the number of page references > per entry to, say, 9 or even to 6, can tell its own = > story. I would appreciate any advice. I hesitate to offer advice, because I'm pretty sure you're a much more experienced indexer than I am! But I do have a lot of experience in retrieving information from books, so I'll venture a suggestion based on that. Quietly omitting is the worst of all possible options - users are very likely to become aware of the omissions, and will thereafter lose confidence in the reliability of the entire index. If you can define clearly which references you're omitting, then leave them out but include the definition in the introductory note. If it's difficult to formulate a clear definition, index all the references even if that does produce a long string. From a user's point of view, looking up 10, 20 or even more references is a lot less work than reading several hundred pages of text. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:16:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: Passim Craig Brown wrote: ...... > I would be curious for a show of hands on the list how many other > indexers (editors, proofreaders, and indexing aficianados) also were > unaware of "passim" prior to entering the publishing field..... I met up with "passim" before indexing, but I was working with textual criticism. It's not "in publishing" but it is very much concerned with books and text. In a critical edition, you need a word to help you say that a form or spelling occurs "throughout" a certain range or document. "Passim" does it. It seems to me that "passim" was explained to me even earlier, maybe even in high school, as part of a list of tools of scholarly apparatus--stuff like ibid., op. cit., and loc. cit. I think such a list once appeared in Turabian's _A Manual for Writers of Term Papers, Theses, and Dissertations._ Now, if you wanna know how _long_ ago that was, well.... > -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:21:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Description of this list In-Reply-To: <199801291509.KAA06358@library.lib.binghamton.edu> I am posting the FAQ here for those who have not seen it. I am working=20 on a web version of this document...stay tuned. INDEX-L FAQ=20 Contents: 1. Index-l procedures 2. Netiquette 3. Archives 4. Books on indexing 5. What software do indexers use? 6. Courses or training for indexers (outside of library schools) 7. Professional societies/organizations for indexers 8. Network connections 9. Internet Sites=20 10.Winners of the ASI/H.W. Wilson Company Award for Indexing=20 1. INDEX-L PROCEDURES There are three addresses you need to use for interaction with index-l: To take part in a discussion or send a message to the list (a.k.a. group or subscribers), address your e-mail to index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a message directly to the moderator (a.k.a. Charlotte), address your e-mail to cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu or Skuster@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a command to the listserv, address your e-mail to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu. As subscribers, you are able to send commands to the listserv to see the archives, see a list of subscribers, stop your mail for a while, or a number of other options. To get a list of listserv commands and what they do, send the following message to the listserv:=20 INFO REFCARD Do not sign your name or put anything else in the message. 2. Netiquette Index-l is un-moderated most of the time. This means the listowner does not see the messages before subscribers do. There are +/-800 subscribers to index-l. It is a very diverse group of=20 free-lance indexers, students, academics, in-house indexers, technical writers, editors, and others. The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is appropriate. ---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about software/equipment. ---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be legitimately related to indexing, it may appropriate.) ---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted messages. --Other guidelines related to keeping the list free of clutter and strife ---Refrain from sending comments without content such as "I agree" or "right on" or "me too", "thanks", or "welcome". This type of message is best sent directly to the person you are responding to. (An exception to this would be a global thanks for information or assistance provided by several people.) ---When surveying the group for information that requires a brief answer, such as "how many of you are librarians?" or "who uses XYZ software?", please invite respondents to reply to you directly and offer to summarize for the list. ---Avoid quoting long messages when responding to a post. Quote segments just long enough to let others know what you are responding to. =20 ---Fire prevention. If possible, try not to respond to postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the person personally. ---If you are having technical problems, please contact the listowner directly (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu). ---For a more extensive treatment of netiquette issues see the following site on the world wide web: =20 http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/netiquette.html 3. ARCHIVES There are two ways to look at the archives: ---Received directly from the listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Send the following message to the listserv: index index-l. You will receive a list of available archives. When you decide what you would like to see, send the following message to the listserv: get log9703a (for the first week in March, for example) ---On the library gopher at Georgia Southern University: Messages are stored here from the start of the listserv in 1992 through the most recent preceding month. A WAIS searching program is available to search through all years at once or through a selected year. =20 The GSU gopher is located through a gopher client at gopher.gasou.edu or by telnet to gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu.=20 public login (INFO), and then look for the gopher program on the the main information services menu.=20 When you reach the gopher take this directory path: =20 /Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Organizations/Index-L 4. BOOKS ON INDEXING Bonura, L. The Art of Indexing. Wiley, 1994 Knight, G. N. Indexing, The Art Of. Allen & Unwin, 1979.=20 =20 Lancaster, F. W. Indexing and Abstracting in Theory and Practice. U of Illinois Press, 1991.=20 =20 Lancaster, F. W. Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval,=20 2nd ed. Information resources Press, 1986=20 Mulvany, Nancy C. Indexing Books, University of Chicago Press, 1994. =20 Wellisch, H. Indexing and Abstracting, an International=20 Bibliography ABC-Clio, 1980.=20 =20 Wellisch, H. Indexing from A to Z. H. W. Wilson, 1991.=20 =20 =20 5. WHAT SOFTWARE DO INDEXERS USE? (This is a limited list. See the ASI Web Site for a more extensive listing: http://www.well.com/user/asi) Cindex (DOS, Macintosh, Windows) Indexing Research=20 Box 18609=20 Rochester, NY 14618 (716) 461-5530=20 FAX: (716) 442-3924 info@indexres.com http://www.indexres.com HyperIndex (Macintosh) Andre De Tienne 7590 Harcourt Road #106 Indianapolis, IN 46260 (317) 274-2033 adetienn@iupui.edu =20 IN>SORT (DOS) Kensa Software=20 P.O. Box 4415=20 Northbrook, IL 60065=20 (708) 559-0297=20 info@kensa.com =20 Macrex (DOS) Wise Bytes P.O. Box 3051=20 Daly City, CA 95015-0051=20 (415) 756-0821=20 FAX: (415) 757-1567=20 Macrex@aol.com http://www.cix.co.uk/~hcalvert SKY Index (Windows) SKY Software 4675 York One Rd Lineboro, MD 21102 Voice and FAX: (410) 374-3484=20 email@sky-software.com URL: http://www.sky-software.com wINDEX (DOS) Susan Holbert Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 FAX: (617) 894-4665 susanh@world.std.com http://www.abbington.com/holbert/windex.html 6. COURSES OR TRAINING FOR INDEXERS (OUTSIDE OF LIBRARY SCHOOLS) Graduate School of the USDA=20 Correspondence Programs, Ag Box 9911=20 Room 1114, South Agriculture Building=20 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW=20 Washington, DC =20 (202) 720-7123 TDD: (202) 690-1516=20 http://grad.usda.gov/corres/edit.html 20250 Tuition: (includes all materials)=20 $281,00--Basic Indexing (beginning) $275.00--Applied Indexing (more advanced) Basic Indexing Skills Video Susan Holbert/Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 susanh@world.std.com http://www.abbington.com/holbert/learn.html Fee: $149 + $7 shipping + $7.45 tax for MA residents only 7. PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES/ORGANIZATIONS FOR INDEXERS =20 American Society of Indexers (ASI)=20 P.O. Box 48267 Seattle, WA 98148-0267 (206) 241-9196 FAX: (206) 727-6430 E-MAIL: asi@well.com http://www.well.com/user/asi/=20 Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada/ Soci=82t=82 Canadienne pour l'Analyse de Documents (IASC/SCAD) Box 744 Station F=20 Toronto Ontario=20 Canada M4Y 2N6=20 http://tornade.ere.umontreal.ca/~turner/iasc/home.html =20 National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services=20 (NFAIS)=20 1518 Walnut Street Suite 307 Philadelphia PA 19102-3403=20 (215) 893-1561 FAX: (215) 893-1564 E-MAIL: nfais@hslc.org=20 Society of Indexers (SI) Mermaid House 1 Mermaid Court LONDON SE1 1HR United Kingdom +44 (0) 171 4034947 FAX +44 (0) 171 4038988 E-MAIL: 10624.1745@compuserve.com Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI)=20 GPO Box 1251L, Melbourne=20 Victoria 3001, Australia=20 E-MAIL:mindexer@interconnect.com.au http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi =20 8. NETWORK CONNECTIONS=20 =20 America Online (800) 227-6364=20 =20 CompuServe (800) 848-8199=20 =20 Delphi (800) 495-4005=20 =20 GEnie (800) 638-9636=20 =20 The Well (415) 332-4335=20 =20 Real/Time Communications (512) 459-4391=20 =20 See also.=20 Maren, M. "The Age of E-Mail. Home Office Computing,=20 December, 1993, 63-70.=20 Tetzeli, R. "Is Going On-line Worth the Money?" FORTUNE 129(12):104-105, 108. June 13, 1994. 9. Internet Sites Gopher Index-L Archives gopher eagle1.cc.gasou.edu World Wide Web American Society of Indexers http://www.well.com/user/asi Australian Society of Indexers http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada http://tornade.ere.umontreal.ca/~turner/iasc/home.html =20 =20 =20 10. WINNERS OF THE ASI/H.W. WILSON COMPANY AWARD FOR INDEXING=20 =20 1979--Hans H. Wellisch, author and indexer; John Wiley, publisher: The Conversion of Scripts: Its Nature, History and Utilization =20 1980--Linda I. Solow, indexer; M.I.T. Press, publisher: Beyond Orpheus:Studies in Musical Structures.=20 =20 1981--Delight Ansley, indexer; Random House Publisher: Cosmos by Carl Sagan,=20 =20 1982--Catherine Fix, indexer; Wm. Saunders Company, publisher: Diagnosis of Bone and Joint Disorders.=20 =20 1983--Award not given.=20 =20 1984--Trish Yancey, indexer; Information Handling Services, publisher: Index and Directory of U.S. Industry Standards=20 =20 1985--Sydney W. Cohen, indexer; Random House, publisher: The Experts Speak by Cerf and Navasky.=20 =20 1986--Marjorie Hyslop, indexer; American Society for Metals, publisher: Metals Handbook.=20 =20 1987--Award not given.=20 =20 1988--Jeanne Moody, indexer; National Wildlife Institute, publisher: Raptor Management Techniques.=20 =20 1989--Philip James, indexer; Butterworths, publisher: Medicine for the Practicing Physician, 2nd ed..=20 =20 1990--Marcia Carlson, indexer; Cornell University Press, publisher: Strategic Nuclear Arms & Arms Control Debates.=20 =20 1991--Daniels, Nancy L., indexer; Van Nostrand Reinhold, publisher:Beyond Public Architecture: Strategies for Design Evaluation. =20 1992--Johnson, Rachel Jo., indexer; Matthew Bender, publisher: American Law of Real Property.=20 =20 1993--Award not given.=20 1994--Deminna, Patricia, indexer; U. of California, publisher: Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture by Daniel Boyarin 1995--White, Martin L., indexer; University of Chicago Press, publisher; The Promise of Pragmatism: Modernism and the Crisis of Knowledge and Authority. 1996--Award not given 1997--Gillian Northcott and Ruth Levitt, indexers; Grove's Dictionaries in the United States and Macmillan Publishers Ltd. in the United Kingdom; Dictionary of Art, edited by Joan Shoaf Turner.. The Dictionary of Art is made up of 32 volumes. This marks the first time that the Wilson Award has been presented for a multi-volume work. The index, which took 10 years to compile, comprises one volume of the dictionary.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:31:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Passim -Reply I agree. I actually encountered it, but in Latin class. I didn't know of the publishing/indexing application until entering the publishing world. --Sharon W. >>> Craig Brown 01/29/98 11:49am >>> Prior to becoming a professional indexer I never encountered the word "passim" in any of my readings, which have been voracious. I consider myself reasonably articulate and include words in my everyday vocabulary that I sometimes have to explain to others. I would be curious for a show of hands on the list how many other indexers (editors, proofreaders, and indexing aficianados) also were unaware of "passim" prior to entering the publishing field. This is not a criticism of Fred's suggestion that we begin to include "passim" (with explanatory headnote) in our indexes. I simply would like to know how many others shared my pre-indexing ignorance. Craig Brown p.s. My spellchecker rejected "passim." Seems to prefer "possum." ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:01:00 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Re: Marketing - Web Site Reality I'm getting increasingly concerned over the recent postings regarding a web site for freelance consortium. Because requests for money are being made on-list, I am posting this caution on-list as well. What follows should not be construed as criticism or endorsement of Susan's ideas. I am only worried that inexperience with internet technology may lead to erroneous assumptions. A database and bulletin board cannot be hosted on a 2MB web page from a typical ISP user account, and they cannot be hosted for the $600/year quoted in a recent post. Web server and relational database management software (RDBMS) are required. Unless you set up a server with Linux, using all freeware, the software alone will cost you approx. $10K minimum. Web servers with databases are generally run on high performance computers behind a firewall for security, and with mirrored disk arrays so that the server can continue serving if a disk crashes. These are all significant investments in both time and money. It is possible to have an internet service provider host a web server for you, but I think a more realistic estimate of the cost would be upwards of $500 a month, depending on traffic. And that doesn't take into account the programming required to create the forms for accessing/searching the database, or time required for doing backups and database maintenance. If, on the other hand, you intend only to present HTML files and not search/update capabilities on the database, you can get away with just a home page - but then it isn't really a database, it's just a text document. But even so, most service providers do not want business use, including non-profit business use, on home pages. On these same lines, does anyone know if ASI has plans to expand their website? I am a new member, so I don't know what kind of discussions there have been about making the membership directory available on-line, or other goodies. I think it would be great if publishers could search our directory instead of having to wait for a harried volunteer to call them back, and it would also be nice for members to be able to submit changes to their own listing . If there's a committee or a specific person I should talk to, please let me know - I'd like to volunteer to help. Vicki Birchfield vbirch@accessone.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:11:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Passim At 11:49 AM 1/29/1998 -0500, Craig Brown wrote: >I would be curious for a show of hands on the list how many other >indexers (editors, proofreaders, and indexing aficianados) also were >unaware of "passim" prior to entering the publishing field. I've been familiar with "passim" for years...mostly because I do/did a lot of reading in older books where it was common. Op. cit. and loc. cit. and even ibid. are falling by the wayside, but I think we need to think about resurrecting "passim," at least, for the very good reasons presented here. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:15:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Passim -Reply In-Reply-To: <199801291838.KAA28688@powergrid.electriciti.com> I encounted Passim as used in text and indexes in high school. Saddly, I believe modern students just don't know about the actual meaning of such conventions. It could be helpful. I doubt that it continues to be. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:38:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: continuous discussion The debate about whether or not to concatenate pages for discontinuous discussions is another illustration of the delicate balance an indexer must strike in each index. There are many competing factors in creating a good index, and it is usually impossible to accommodate them all. Brevity, visual appeal, perfect accuracy, perfect consistency, inclusion of the maximum amount of information, adherence to the less-than-eight unanalyzed locators wisdom, and something I think of as "unquestionability" (by which I mean that nothing "looks" weird, even if it is accurate)--you can hardly ever have them all. Which you focus on for any index is a function of the publisher, the audience, the space allowed for the index, the book itself, and your personal preferences--if you are a purist and go for accuracy in analyzing discontinuous discussions, you may often have to sacrifice three or more of the above. So you have to find a middle ground that you and your publisher can live with--if they keep calling you, you've probably picked well. You can cover yourself to a great extent by explaining your choices in your cover letter; they may not agree, but they'll know that what you've done was a choice and not a mistake. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:13:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Passim I encountered passim along with op.cit., loc. cit., and ibid. frequently in the thesis and dissertation typing and editing I did a number of years ago. Believe that it is now falling out of favor in some scholarly departments. It was useful in distinguishing scattered references in a page range and appeared in text, footnotes, and, depending on the style manual used within the discipline itself, even bibliographies. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@ pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:18:43 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Passim In-Reply-To: <199801291714.JAA10642@pacific.net> Fred wrote: >It's interesting that one possible solution to this problem has been ignored, >since it is no longer in use: passim. >How about us all introducing it into our indexes when necessary and including >a head not about it? I have used and continue to use passim on occasion. I discovered it in childhood, when I encountered this funny word in an index. Some presses disallow its use, others will admit a couple of instances in an index, others are more comfortable with it. If I find I need to use it, I check in with the production editor. I don't query it ahead of time, in general, because I use it so seldom. Yet, when it's the right thing, it's quite helpful. We've had previous discussions here on Index-L about passim, in which I was one of the few who championed its use. Perhaps more of us begin to understand how it can preserve precision, rather than being nebulous, as some maintain? Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:40:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett Subject: Continuous discussions with intervening illustrations I agree with Janet Perlman that showing strings of page refs, although technically correct, appears inelegant in an index. Recently I did that i= n a project, however, because I felt that showing the full page range was misleading the reader. The editor questioned it, and after discussion, we= decided to show the full page range with the intervening illustrations. Upon reflection, I think that readers will figure it out, and I think a page range is easier to use than a string of page refs. When in doubt on an issue like this, I often ask the editor if he or she has a preference. Although I don't think the customer is always right in= this business, I do strive to satisfy my clients. = Nan Badgett dba Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:57:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Kravitz Subject: Re: Passim -Reply In-Reply-To: <199801291837.NAA22054@loas.clark.net> I'm a new indexer (trying to be), but can report that as a former researcher/writer I occasionally came across Passim. Linda Kravitz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:01:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Passim Craig Brown asked: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Wilson Subject: Re: Cats...please desist Phew, what a relief! I have just joined this list and with the first three messages I received being about cats I thought I'd stumbled into the wrong group. Alan Wilson Director, Information Resources Management Department of the Parliamentary Library Parliament House, Canberra, ACT2600, Australia --------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone: (02) 6277 2570 Fax: (02) 6277 2622 Email: Alan.Wilson@aph.gov.au DPL website: http://www.aph.gov.au/library/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Charlotte Skuster [SMTP:cskuster@LIBRARY.LIB.BINGHAMTON.EDU] > Sent: Friday, January 30, 1998 1:47 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Cats...please desist > > I am sorry, but I must ask the cat chat to stop. This is not > appropriate= > =20 > for index-l and putting chat in the subject line does not alter this > fact. > If you have taken part in this discussion, please do not take this as > a=20 > personal reprimand. I was remiss in waiting to remind/inform of the > policy= > . > > > Please know that I love cats, have one of my own. But, there are > 800+=20 > subscribers to this list who have subscribed because of the > substantive=20 > conversations about indexing. =20 > > From=20the index-l faq: > > The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is=20 > appropriate. > > =AD=AD=ADAny topic related to indexing theory or practice or the > business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-=ADf-the-=AD > book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate > future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, > job=20 > postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about=20 > software/equipment. > > =AD=AD=ADInappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated > to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie > recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, > dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive > and= > =20 > if any of the above named topics can be > legitimately related to indexing, it may appropriate.) > > =AD=AD=ADAlso inappropriate are advertisements or employment-wanted > message= > s. > > > Charlotte Skuster > Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:09:34 -0800 Reply-To: Kari Bero Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: compiling thesauri I've just created a thesaurus for indexing I do for one of my clients writes only specialized materials (instruction manuals for fire fighters). So far, I've just copied the records from the electronic indexes into a new "index" in my indexing software. I use that new "index" as a thesaurus. I'm wondering if there are different ways of handling this, so that I can find one that works better for me. Have any of you done something like this w/ a specific subject or client you work with? If so, how have you created & managed the thesaurus? I've read through the info on the ASI web site (thanks for writing that, Jessica Milstead), and will read books about thesaurus construction if I decide to take this further. But, I want to know what _you_ do and what _you_ have tried. What works for you and what doesn't? TIA -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116-3000 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:06:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Continuous discussions with intervening illustrations At 11:36 PM 1/27/98 EST, Janet wrote: >Therese, > >Since you asked ........ in my years of indexing, I've turned into a real >purist. When I come across this type of situation, I do *not* use the page >range, but rather break the page reference into whatever page numbers indicate >where the discussion is. I do not like to take the liberty of implying a 3 >page discussion (ie, pp. 14-16) when the discussion may be one paragraph at >the bottom page 14 that continues onto the top of page 16, with an unrelated >figure or table on page 15. I prefer to be entirely "truthful" about what is >there in the index (no judgment intended here -- just an honest listing of >page locators).' What troubles me and apparently all of us about this dilemma is that it's not possible to index continuous discussions over interrupted page ranges accurately with either method: a page range falsely implies a full-range discussion, and two or more discrete page numbers falsely indicate two or more discrete discussions. It sounds like most of us use whichever method we think communicates most and misleads least. I usually use the page range option for one-page and sometimes even two-page interruptions in order to indicate continuity, but for three-or-more-page interruptions I think I'd have to opt for discrete page numbers. In the case that Kara brought up of a continuous discussion with several interruptions over a long page range, I agreed with her that bad as it is, a long misleading page range (231-241) seems better than a long string of page numbers that falsely indicate discrete discussions (231, 233-234, 236, 238, 240-241), especially when they would have to be combined with other page numbers that truly indicate discrete discussions. Clearly, whatever our preferences in this dilemma, we don't have a tool with which to handle it very well. (Here, to differentiate this thread on interrupted continuous discussions from the concurrently running thread with the same name on noncontinuous discussions, it might be helpful to note that "passim", as a tool for indicating noncontinuous discussions over page ranges, is not an option for indexing interrupted continuous discussions.) I'm thinking that if this dilemma comes up often enough and seems troublesome enough, maybe we should consider creating a new tool (accompanied by an appropriate headnote) for readers of books whose publishers would be willing to try it. A mnemonic page range annotation might be helpful: since "i" for "interrupted" could easily be taken for "illustrated", what about indicating interrupted or broken page ranges with "b"? In the examples given above this option would give us "14-16b" and "231-241b". Also, instead of adding an annotation to a page range, dealing even more directly with the problem by changing the page range indicator might be helpful: what about indicating interrupted or broken page ranges with some character such as a slash instead of using a hyphen or an en dash? In the examples given above this option would give us "14/16" and "231/241". This idea may strike some as more confusing than helpful, but I include it for whatever merit it might have in order to try to elicit further brainstorming from any others who might want to wrestle with the problem. Do either of these or any other innovations appeal to anyone else on this list, or should we just let this matter go and put up with what we've got? Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:44:10 +1100 Reply-To: Jonathan Jermey Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Discontinuous discussions over many pages (was intervening illustrations) Janet, Here is another case where my philosophy "Keep it Simple" means that I write the pages as a range. In most cases when someone looks a subject up in an index, they are going to want to look at all of the relevant pages. So their behaviour will be no different whether they see "122, 123, 124, 125" or 122-125. The only problem with the second approach (and to me it is very minor) is that people may be fooled into thinking that it is a major discussion of the topic, whereas it is really only a few minor points. The advantage of using a range is that the user doesn't have to keep on checking back to the index to see what pages to consult, and the index looks a lot cleaner. > >The thing that gives me more of a problem is a situation in which something is >discussed again and again, as illustrative of one point and then another, on a >succession of pages, when the discussions are discontinuous. The string of >page locators is disconcerting in the index (to me), and I find it more >difficult to maintain my "purist" position and list all page locators >although technically >correct By 'technically correct' do you mean recommended in all the standards? If not, then it may be another behaviour that is not accepted by all as being *the* way to do things. In 'Indexing Books' (p. 92) Nancy Mulvany gives the McGraw-Hill style as an example: they use ranges if there are more than 3 pages of non-consecutive discussion (i.e. they would use 122, 123, but 122-124 not 122, 123, 124). She also says "It is thought that using a page range for an entire discussion is an aid for the readers because a page range is easier than a string of separate page numbers to read. Although indexers may find this practice disturbing because of its lack of precision, it is an important element to look for in a publisher's style guide." Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:21:35 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Marketing - Web Site Reality Vicki Birchfield wrote: > > On these same lines, does anyone know if ASI has plans to expand their website? > I > am a new member, so I don't know what kind of discussions there have been about > making the membership directory available on-line, or other goodies. I think it > would be great if publishers could search our directory instead of having to > wait > for a harried volunteer to call them back, and it would also be nice for members > to be able to submit changes to their own listing . If there's a committee or a > specific person I should talk to, please let me know - I'd like to volunteer to > help. > > Vicki Birchfield > vbirch@accessone.com Count me in to help as well. I have not yet joined ASI, but plan to momentarily. It seems to me that it's just a matter of getting a group of people coordinated and organized, assigning tasks, etc. Seth Maislin seems to be doing much of this (on his own?) between busy indexing and speaking careers. Of course, there may be procedural matters that need to be discussed with the governing board regarding making the database that publicly available. Anyway, count me in if volunteer help is needed. Dan -- ///////////////////////////////////////////// Dan Connolly Our life is frittered away by detail . . . Simplify, simplify. Henry David Thoreau ///////////////////////////////////////////// ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:23:05 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Discontinuous/continuous discussions In-Reply-To: <199801300117.RAA17203@pacific.net> Checking N. Mulvany's book, ^Indexing Books^, I find the following on pages 91-92: "In a departure from traditional practices regarding the handling of continuous and noncontinuous discussion, the ^McGraw-Hill Style Manual^ (page 290) provides indexers with the following guidelines: 'Use inclusive page numbers for three or more consecutive page references, regardless of whether the discussion is continuous or interrupted: 236-2238 (^not^ 236, 237, 238) If only two consecutive pages are listed, use an en dash between them if the discussion is continuous from one page to the next; use a comma for two separate mentions.' [Mulvany continues] Do note that the McGraw-Hill style distinguishes between noncontinuous discussion on two consecutive pages and on three consecutive pages or more. It has become common at some presses, including the University of Chicago Press, not to make any distinction between continuous and noncontinuous discussion of a topic on consecutive pages. It is thought that using a page range for an entire discussion is an aid for the readers because a page range is easier than a string of separate page numbers to read. Although indexers may find this practice disturbing because of its lack of precision, it is an important element to look for in a publisher's style guide. If no mention is made in the style guide of the distinction between continuous and noncontinuous discussion on consecutive pages, the indexer is safe to assume that a page range can be used for noncontinuous discussion on consecutive pages." [end Mulvany] I infer from this that the practice of using page ranges to indicate continuous but interrupted discussion is within current publishing practices. I have been instructed to use page ranges in order to hold the locator strings to a minimum. Certainly though, if there are just a few sentences at the bottom of a page otherwise filled with an unrelated illustration, I include that in a page reference. Skipping a page with a full-page illustration seems to me to be the controversy, and my practice varies depending on considerations already discussed by others. This passage is an outgrowth of Mulvany's discussion of the use of ^passim^, and would indicate an alternative to its use. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:43:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: continuous discussion/"passim" As indexers, we should never lose sight of the reader's needs and expectations. That means, for example, that what is good and accepted practice in scholarly indexing may not be appropriate in books for younger readers. Readers of scholarly material generally expect precision and accuracy from an index. For this type of reader, the use of "passim", or a string of locators indicating discontinuous occurrences(41, 42, 43-44) are both appropriate ways to handle a sequence of unrelated or separate discussions. When preparing a scholarly index, I wouldn't be averse to using "passim"; I've certainly used the above string, and no doubt will again. OTOH, younger readers, such as those in junior high school (and those in my original example,) have different needs and expectations. "Passim" will merely baffle them, unless someone or something is around to explain. A string such as "41, 42, 43-44" will puzzle them at best, and possibly irritate them: having flipped back to 41 and maybe a second time to 42, they now have to flip back *again* to 43-44. If the student isn't so frustrated that s/he loses interest, s/he will likely mutter something like, "It could have said that [41-44] to begin with." Concatenating this page range probably serves this reader better than a more precise approach would. It certainly looks less intimidating, and with this age group that can be crucial in the student's decision whether to use the book. I don't think there's any argument that most students are not receiving enough (or any) instruction in research skills, including those required to use an index. But my job as an indexer is not to teach the skills of index-use, or to foil those who lack such skills from finding the information they seek. My job is to provide clear and easy access to that information. If I don't take into account the skill and patience levels of the expected audience, I may fail -- and so will they. Admittedly, I've deliberately chosen as my examples two fields in which the target audiences are fairly far apart in terms of age, experience, education, and research skills. The underlying principle is the same, though, no matter what the audience. What does the reader need, and what does the reader expect? Our job is to know, and to provide it to the best of our ability. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:16:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Continuous discussions with intervening illustrations Michael, thank you for pointing out that we have really been discussing two different problems here: a) noncontinuous (discrete) discussions on sequential pages and b) continuous discussions interrupted by non-related material such as illustrations. Thank you ten times over for so clearly delineating the dilemma posed by (b). You've come up with several possible solutions, some of which I'm mulling over. I hope we'll see discussion on the merits of these as well as other ideas. With all the creativity and intelligence on this list, surely we ought to be able to come up with something! Incidentally, does anyone know if any of the "standards" deals specifically with interrupted continuous discussions? Michael wrote: > What troubles me and apparently all of us about this dilemma is that it's > not possible to index continuous discussions over interrupted page ranges > accurately with either method: a page range falsely implies a full-range > discussion, and two or more discrete page numbers falsely indicate two or > more discrete discussions. (friendly snip) > I'm thinking that if this dilemma comes up often enough and seems > troublesome enough, maybe we should consider creating a new tool > (accompanied by an appropriate headnote) for readers of books whose > publishers would be willing to try it. A mnemonic page range annotation > might be helpful: since "i" for "interrupted" could easily be taken for > "illustrated", what about indicating interrupted or broken page ranges with > "b"? In the examples given above this option would give us "14-16b" and > "231-241b". Also, instead of adding an annotation to a page range, dealing > even more directly with the problem by changing the page range indicator > might be helpful: what about indicating interrupted or broken page ranges > with some character such as a slash instead of using a hyphen or an en dash? > In the examples given above this option would give us "14/16" and "231/241". > This idea may strike some as more confusing than helpful, but I include it > for whatever merit it might have in order to try to elicit further > brainstorming from any others who might want to wrestle with the problem. > Do either of these or any other innovations appeal to anyone else on this > list, or should we just let this matter go and put up with what we've got? > > Michael > > Brackney Indexing Service > 134 Kathleen Way > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 02:36:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: ASI Web Site Committee Vicki, Dan, and others interested in the ASI Web Site Committee, I am delighted to hear of your interest in the ASI Web Site and the work of the Web Site Committee. The Committee currently consists of 9 people, two of whom (Seth Maislin and I) also serve as webmasters. There is, however, more than enough work for those who would like to volunteer to help, and I would like to hear from you. Please send me an e-mail directly, rather than replying to the list, as I read INDEX-L somewhat irregularly. Thanks! Marilyn Rowland Chair, ASI Web Committee marisol@marisol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:35:31 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: Continuous discussions with intervening illustrations One thought that crossed my mind while reading your reply was how I would have approached the engineers I used to process technical docs/manuals for: put the tables and pictures with the text that they are related to, or in an appendix! Granted, that solution is for a perfect world (in the eye of the indexer) and would probably not fly with most publishers/writers, but the approach may be attempted by the bravest of the brave? I also remember reading books of old that simply omitted page numbers (or assigned them dedicated labels) for non-text pages. As I am new to this, I am not aware if that practice has been dropped, but assume it has as I haven't seen it lately. Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:51:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Amy Harper Subject: WI ASI Spring Conference with Do Mi Stauber ******************ASI Wisconsin Spring Conference***************** March 7, 1998 9:00 am -- 4:00 pm First Unitarian Church of Milwaukee 1342 N. Astor Milwaukee, WI Facing the Text Content Analysis and Entry Selection in Social Sciences and Humanities Indexing A workshop by Do Mi Stauber This participatory workshop focuses on the practical processes of indexing. We will survey the steps that indexers follow as we interpret texts and create index structures, using examples and hands-on exercises from a range of real texts and indexes. This workshop covers back-of-book indexing of both scholarly books and textbooks in the social sciences and humanities. It is not a basic introduction to indexing, but novices as well as experienced indexers should benefit. Among the subjects to be discussed: main topics, indexable topics, index structure, subheads, cross references, and wording. Do Mi Stauber has been a full-time indexer for the past eleven years. She has managed Twin Oaks Indexing Collective for two years, supervising and training a group of indexers. She indexes scholarly books, textbooks and government documents. She is the chair of the Wilson Award judging committee and is the author of "Jewels in the Cavern: The Special Challenge of Scholarly Indexing." Conference Fees Early registration, postmarked by February 20, 1998 ASI Members: $50 Non-ASI Members: $60 Late registration after February 20, 1998 ASI Members: $70 Non-ASI Members: $80 Walk-ins, March 7, 1998: $90 Prices include workshop and refreshments. The lunch hour break may be enjoyed at a number of local eateries. For a copy of this brochure or any questions, please contact Mary Brod at (414) 784-0372 or rbrod@execpc.com for more details. ************************************************************ Registration Form: Name__________________________________ Address________________________________ _______________________________________ City, state, zip___________________________ _______________________________________ ________________________________________ Daytime phone___________________________ E-mail__________________________________ Please make check payable to Wisconsin Chapter-ASI Return check and this form to: Marilyn Flaig 3926 N. Stowell Ave. Shorewood, WI 53211 **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:36:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drew Proctor Subject: Re: Passim In-Reply-To: <199801291802.KAA12085@oneworld.owt.com> I am just an indexer wannabe at this point but I am a librarian. I had never run across the word "passim" and, although I think I could have figured out the meaning from the context, I shudder to think what the students at our community college would make of it! Having said that, I have to say that I like the idea and would be willing to educate them. Drew Proctor Kennewick, WA On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Craig Brown wrote: > Prior to becoming a professional indexer I never encountered the word > "passim" in any of my readings, which have been voracious. I consider > myself reasonably articulate and include words in my everyday vocabulary > that I sometimes have to explain to others. > > I would be curious for a show of hands on the list how many other > indexers (editors, proofreaders, and indexing aficianados) also were > unaware of "passim" prior to entering the publishing field. > > This is not a criticism of Fred's suggestion that we begin to include > "passim" (with explanatory headnote) in our indexes. I simply would like > to know how many others shared my pre-indexing ignorance. > > Craig Brown > > p.s. > > My spellchecker rejected "passim." Seems to prefer "possum." > > ========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword > ========================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:26:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Urgent need for index hand-off I've got an urgent need for help. I made a tough decision this morning. One I've never had to make before. But I had no choice in the end. I need to transfer a project __immediately__, as in right this minute, to an experienced Cindex indexer. Experience required is the art of updating groups of locators with ALTER to update an existing index. The book is a 3rd grade math text. My client, and your new client, (as of today I can probably safely assume I'll be doing no more work for them), has an almost impossible task. They're a "typesetter cum publisher" and their client dumped on them by saying, "You won't get any page proofs. You need to update the folios in the last edition's index, and implement a few systematic terminology changes, from bookmaps alone, marked with old and new folios." So then my client calls me and told me the deal and said they _have_ to have it by this friday. That's like as in today. So I thought a bit and came up with a plan. Have the index scanned by the good folks at Indexing Research, and do the old squeeze/single, grouping, and ALTERing routine. If that last sentence doesn't make perfect sense you're not right for this project! So Fran and crew performed their usual heroics and scanned and converted to Cindex the whole index. The index itself is not very long, only about 7 pages, and the summary index would only be about a page long, since there are many many terms with perhaps a hundred locators. Yes that's right, not a few dozen or so but a hundred! Because of the huge size of teh page fields the file had some weird terms but these were all systematic and after several hours work, which as I'll explain in a minute I couldn't afford to give, I managed to finally get the Index into fully Squeezed/single if yu know what I mean and it's ready for updating to begin. Now is where it gets messy. This client, or more accurately the editor, has consistetly failed to provide follow through on things I told her I needed. This culminated yesterday, when I discover that the bookmap pages I was supposed to have been sent, had not all been sent, like maybe 2 out of 30. "Oh well my assistant was supposed to send those out." Yeah you know the story.... This type of thing infuriates me. So we had to do the fax route then my fax picks yesterday to go on the fritz and I kill a solid 90 minutes getting the bookmap pages and then I still don't have them all and have to call them again. Then someone calls me right then, and I'm on the phone about 5 minutes, and apparently the assistant gets a busy and resolves to try again later. So I come back about 3 hours later and still no 2 last bookmap pages. Now I discover this morning the index tear sheets they sent me with terminology changes marked in red have only about half of the required changes implemented. The basic problem is I could do a good job on this and get it out the door by the end of the day by the usual jury-rigged heroics, but I don't have the time. As you may remember from my recent "editing" post I'm in the midst of editing an 80,000 record index for my best client. They're pressing me relentlessly and I'm just about to mentally explode from that alone and then this stupid math project. I essentially lost most of the day yesterday on the other project. So at last we get down to the crux of the matter. As soon as I post this to Index-L, I'm gonna get on the phone with my client and tell them I'm off the project. Oh yeah and I forgot to mention all this for a chronic slow-payer. This is not a task for a newbie, or even an experienced indexer with no experience in the process of automatic updating of pafe references. Don't use e-mail. Please call me right away and let's get talking. With a clean Cindex file ready to go that can be e-mailed to you, the new indexer could be up-and-running by noonish. And with any luck you could finish this thing today, or make the Sat FedEx so they'll get it Monday. It's not that big a project, 2-4 hours for someone with nothing else going on. There are maybe a dozen systematic terminology changes and you'll need to go over the bookmap carefully to set up your groups correctly, but for someone with a clean slate and experience in this area it isn't that bad at all. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but only the pig enjoys it. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:59:54 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Marketing - Web Site Reality Sorry to post this to the list but there was some things that got misquoted and some things that need clarifying. In a message dated 98-01-29 17:28:48 EST, what you wrote is in blue, what I wrote is in red and what I am writing is in black: << I'm getting increasingly concerned over the recent postings regarding a web site for freelance consortium. Because requests for money are being made on-list, I am posting this caution on-list as well. >> I don't know what you are so concerned about. One of the reason I posted this announcement to Index-L was to get feed back. I had asked that anyone that had any comments or feedback to reply to me personally. I have not requested any money be sent yet. I only announced what the rates will be in case anyone was interested. I don't know what the problem with mentioning the cost of things. That is the fist thing I want to know when I am thinking of doing something. I have in fact told everyone to wait to send me their money. I need to be sure everything is in tact and ready to go. Yes I am inexperienced that's why I have asked for feedback. I appreciate your expertise and if ASI doesn't have plans for a data base or members' list I could use any help you would like to offer, you are only the third person that has volunteered to help (even though you volunteer to help ASI) and you are only the second person that has given me any feedback. The first one was to tell me I need to be sure to spell check the web page...lol and she suggested that I add the members' states for those publisher that don't want to deal with people long distance, which I plan to do. So I have had plan this consortium and made decision, as inexperienced as I am, completely by myself. If anyone has any suggestion that will help I would appreciate it but please contact me NOT THE LIST. I have wrote ASI a letter and also volunteer to help in anyway I can. It would be nice if ASI could add the members list (or database), the chatroom, bulletin board and the publishers' list to their web page. I believe they all would be a valuable asset to indexers. However due to lack of interest of the part of indexers I have already invited other professions to join the consortium and will continue to develop it with anyone's help that would like to volunteer, whether it is through information on setting up a database or just calling publishers to get info for the publishers list. Tim Griffin has donated the 1998 Writer's Guide CD with 4000 publishers and I plan to call each one to find those that hire freelancer, what types of books they publish and the contact person's name for each freelance profession that the Consortium represents. It will be a very expensive, time consuming task and I can use all the help I can get, experience or not. /FONT> You evidently misread my post this is what I said: you continued: < and they cannot be hosted for the $600/year quoted in a recent post. Web server and relational database management software (RDBMS) are required. Unless you set up a server with Linux, using all freeware, the software alone will cost you approx. $10K minimum. > Again you misread: Where do I say anything about hosting the database and bulletin board for $600 per year. My Internet provider will be $300 per year for a whole new account that will give me 5 screen names making a total of 10 mg. That may not be even be enough but by the time we have enough people that we need a data base rather than just a list we could afford to get more space. I plan only to use my personal 2mgs to get things started as inexpensively as possible. The only things this 2 mgs will carry is three directories: The Director of Members with, their specialties, State, E-mail and web page link or a link to a favorite place. The Directory of publishers, Writers & Printing Companies that hire freelancers, The Adverising Directory for companies to list products and service available for the membership. It will include a chat room which will be absolutely free because the Parachat company make their money from the ads that will be on the chat site. When we have the funds to pay the $600 per year we will solicit our own ads to fund the consortium. The Parachat use 0 disk space on our web site. I think all there is to it is a link to the Parachat's disk space (or whatever) my only interest is that it doesn't use any of our 2 mgs. Fine tell me how to get the freeware!! All the more reason I need volunteers. But by the time we have the membership that needs a database we will probably have them. If we don't we can afford to hire them. For that reason I think I am going to slow down and go the least expensive way and gradually add the fancy gadgets. So for now we will start out with the bare necessities and work our way up. 1. I will design the web site myself for now. I know it won't be nowhere near as nice as Dwight's will be but it will be functional and serve the purpose. Since I was planning to NOT have a database at this stage I assume you knew the members would just be listed. Actually I didn't think to mention the list. I should have explained that clearer. There will be a Members directory. We really don't need a database at this stage. I wrote my ISP to be sure there wouldn't be any problems with putting a business on my web site. This is the letter I wrote to AOL in Green and excerpt of their response in Purple: I will be happy to forward the complete letter to anyone interested. I don't think they would mind...:) I had completely read the Terms of Service before I decided to put this on my AOL web site. It says nothing about not being about to put a business on it. In a nut shell it just says I can't cuss and hurt people's feelings....;) I'm glad you think this is a good idea. I have been with ASI for year now and haven't heard anything about any plans for an online directory. But if they aren't like I said above I could use the help...:) I am working on the web site now and hope to have it up for you to view by Monday. It may not be completely finished with the forms for feedback and the chat room but you will be able to see the home page and how it will work. I would greatly appreciate all criticism and suggestions. By the way does anyone know how to get shading in web page cells. I am using AOLPress and as of yet haven't figured that out. It looks kind of drab without it. Anyone that would like to make further suggestions or comments, please contact me NOT THE LIST. I will summarize any feedback for those that are interested. I assure you I will be up front on all possible complications as I have in the past. I wished I had time to let some one proof this...but got too many irons in the fire. PLEASE if you hit reply change the address to Bookindexr@aol.com Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:20:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: Passim I have one client, an institute at a university, whose indexing guidelines include the use of passim, with very specific guidelines on when to use it: "Passim is not used as a blanket 'here and there' but with the specific and circumscribed meaning of a cluster of references not necessarily on every page but all within three pages of one another." The guidelines give an example and discuss the trade-off of precision for space saved in the index. I have just completed my second index for this client, and have not seen the first one, so I do not know if they included a head note with all of this explanation. In both indexes, I found 5 or 6 places to use passim (including double- or triple-posting of the same set of locators). When I first read these guidelines, I was reluctant to use passim, but I think it was appropriate in these cases, since, as Kara mentioned, these are scholarly books. OTOH, I wouldn't use passim in an index for other university press clients without checking with the editor first. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:36:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: truncated digest Today I received a clipped Index-L digest--about 5 postings and then an abrupt cut-off. When I retrieved the appropriate archive, I got the same thing. Would someone who received the digest in its entirety mind sending it to me. The one I'm looking for is "28 Jan 1998 to 29 Jan 1998." Thanks. Please reply off-list of course. You'd think I've got Eudora set to skip messages over a certain length, but I don't, so I know that's not the problem. BTW, I couldn't get the gopher address to work. Followed it all the way to Index-L and then got a window that said there's nothing stored there. Have any of you had any better luck with it? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:13:47 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Re: truncated digest Carol, I got this info from the ASI website (http:\\www.well.com\~asi) under Announcements: ----------- The address for index-l archives has changed The address for the index-l archives at Georgia Southern University has changed. The Webmasters for indexing society web pages (American, Canadian, Australian) have been notified so it is (or will be shortly) still possible to connect from those pages. Or, you can connect by using either of the two following addresses: gopher://gopher.GaSoU.edu:70/11/Georgia%20 Southern%20University/Henderson%20Library/assistance/Index-L gopher://informer.cc.GaSoU.edu:70/11/Georgia%20Southern%20University/Henderson%2 0Library/assistance/Index-L ----------- Maybe the move has something to do with your chopped archive? Vicki Birchfield ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:58:10 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Organization: California State University Long Beach, Library Subject: Re: Passim I'm glad someone finally spoke up to say that s/he had never seen "passim." Thanks, Drew! As a nearly 30-year librarian and wannabe indexer, I, too, have never seen "passim." But unlike Drew, I'm not eager to add yet another thing to the myriad that students don't know about books. Such as the existance of back-of-the-book indexes, about which many are clueless. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:15:44 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: Passim -Reply The only place I have encountered "passim" was in the indexing guidelines of a major publisher -- telling indexers not to use it. Craig's possums, however, are in the cornfield behind my house! Sandy ------------------- In the words of the immortal Buckaroo Banzai, "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: new column Hi everyone, I'm pleased to announce that I'm going to be writing a column for Key Words which will appear in the issue after next. Its focus will be on tips and tricks, with two or three tips each issue. No tips on how to fend off paranoid schizophrenics, nor on how to make one's cat tax deductible. However, it could cover such things as how to make one's home office deductible, or how to make Cindex or Macrex do certain things. I'd like to solicit your tips and tricks, along with your permission to use them in the column, and whether you want to be given credit for them or not. I'll also be looking through Index-L for good tips, and will request permission of anyone whose tips I would like to use. If you have something you'd like to see tips for, let me know and I'll research it. Thanks, Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:40:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: MSWord and non-imbedded indexes Dear folks, Because of a Y2K problem and the impending disappearance of in-house indexing programs we have been using for years, I may soon be forced to produce session laws indexes with Word 97. (Yes, I know I ought to use a stand-alone indexing program; the hangup is our office's Unix system.) This would not be the embedded indexing that the third-party books explain how to do, but a use of the sorting and formatting features of Word to make something that looks like an index. A complication is the page format, which involves columns for chapter, article, and section numbers of the bills, connected by leader dots, like this: AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT Agriculture education..................183........3...........2-5 I am an absolute novice to Word. Is there anyone out there who has done anything like this and so can suggest a procedure to me? It appears to me that I must make entries, sort, edit and format in separate steps. Am I right, or is there some shortcut I'm missing? Thanks for any advice you can give me. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:48:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Passim, according to indexing standards and CMS Someone asked whether or not the indexing standards (British standards [BSI] and National Information Standards Organization [NISO], for example) have anything to say about passim. BSI has this to say: Section 5.4.3.2: "If a subject is repeatedly mentioned in passing, reference should be made to each element in the sequence, e.g. 3, 4, 5 (not: 3-5). The use of the word 'passim' is not recommended." In Indexing from A to Z (2nd ed., 1995, p. 278-279), Wellisch states that "...; the use of passim is also deprecated by BS 3700, 5.4.3.1 [see above--Wellisch means 5.4.3.2], and NISO Z39.4, while The Chicago Manual of Style (1993, 17.9) allows its use 'if passing references to the subject over a long sequence of pages are actually important enough to index.'" As others have said in this discussion on passim, a great deal depends upon your client's preferences. When in doubt, ask, and if passim can be used, its use should be explained in a headnote. As for knowing what "passim" meant before I became an indexer, for some reason I did know what it was. It may be because I majored in Latin American history as an undergraduate, and my mentor was one of those old-fashioned historians who indexed his books the old-fashioned way (with cards--there was no other choice in those days!). Dr. Brundage mentioned indexes often in his lectures and I think he may have on occasion brought up the term "passim." ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Editor-in-Chief, KEY WORDS, American Society of Indexers Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:59 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: passim I got to know "passim" (in footnote references as well as index entries) long before I began indexing. I sturdily defended its use until someone whose book I was indexing -- a professor of political science with an Oxford D.Phil. -- asked me what it meant. Since then, I have used it rarely. From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:44:57 +0000 Reply-To: lbindex@picard.omn.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee Ellen Brower Organization: Brower Indexing Services Subject: Clients I'm looking for assistance in two areas. The first is for books on Buddhism, or Buddhist philosophy. The second is for scholarly books and textbooks in economic theory. Please contact me privately. Lee Brower 970 663-6833 Loveland, Colorado ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:02:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Passim, AND interrupted continuous discussion Thanks, Cynthia; that's a help, and clarifies when it is appropriate to use "passim." I've found this whole discussion of "passim" fascinating. It seems that indexers have a tool which gives specific and useful information about the text in a succinct form, but we avoid using this tool because many publishers prefer not to use it, and many readers are unfamiliar with it. That's a dilemma in itself. What I really meant to ask, though, was whether any of the standards address the problem of continuous discussions which are interrupted by illustrations or stand-alone "boxed" text on other topics. (Agreed, this may be poor layout, but I've run across it twice, and probably will again -- especially in textbooks.) To clarify again what I mean by interrupted continuous discussions: p. 125 is all text, and topic A begins at the bottom of it. P. 126-131 have photos on them, relating to the overall topic of the chapter, but not specifically to topic A. However, pp. 127, 129, and 131 have about 4 lines of text below the photographs; this text continues the paragraph which introduced topic A. P. 132 is all text, and finishes up topic A. Pp. 126, 128, and 130 contain no text, and the illustrations do not relate to topic A. (And I've run into situations like this which stretch a two- or three-paragraph discussion over 10 pages.) As Michael pointed out, passim is inappropriate here, since topic A is one continuous discussion textually. As he also pointed out, neither the page range "125-132" nor the string "125, 127, 129, 131-132" adequately represent what is in the text. The former suggests a substantial discussion, rather than the actual 2 paragraphs. The latter suggests several discrete mentions, rather than a continuous discussion (and adds visual complexity which tends to discourage students from bothering. I used to teach research skills to junior high and high school students; a lot of them frustrate easily.) Has this dilemma ever been addressed in any of the indexing texts or standards? If not, is it appropriate or worthwhile to come up with an alternative to the two options mentioned above? Or is this problem rare enough that we should continue to address it a case-by-case basis? Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ---------- > Cynthia D. Bertelsen wrote: > Someone asked whether or not the indexing standards (British standards [BSI] > and National Information Standards Organization [NISO], for example) have > anything to say about passim. > > BSI has this to say: > > Section 5.4.3.2: "If a subject is repeatedly mentioned in passing, reference > should be made to each element in the sequence, e.g. 3, 4, 5 (not: 3-5). The > use of the word 'passim' is not recommended." > > In Indexing from A to Z (2nd ed., 1995, p. 278-279), Wellisch states that > "...; the use of passim is also deprecated by BS 3700, 5.4.3.1 [see > above--Wellisch means 5.4.3.2], and NISO Z39.4, while The Chicago Manual of > Style (1993, 17.9) allows its use 'if passing references to the subject over > a long sequence of pages are actually important enough to index.'" > > As others have said in this discussion on passim, a great deal depends upon > your client's preferences. When in doubt, ask, and if passim can be used, > its use should be explained in a headnote. > > As for knowing what "passim" meant before I became an indexer, for some > reason I did know what it was. It may be because I majored in Latin American > history as an undergraduate, and my mentor was one of those old-fashioned > historians who indexed his books the old-fashioned way (with cards--there > was no other choice in those days!). Dr. Brundage mentioned indexes often in > his lectures and I think he may have on occasion brought up the term "passim." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:50:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Index-l archives gopher addresses In-Reply-To: Vicki Birchfield "Re: truncated digest" (Jan 30, 9:13am) Charlotte and I have been working to get the links to the index-l archives functional at the ASI Web site. Finally, we have. We found all of my typos, and updated all links locations throughout our site. You can find the new gopher addresses for index-l archives at the following ASI site locations: http:/www.well.com/user/asi/announ.htm#indexl_archives http:/www.well.com/user/asi/discgrps.htm#indexlarc Thanks for your patience. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:56:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Larry Harrison to the rescue With regards to my frantic message this morning, Larry Harrison has come to my rescue. It was almost beginning to look like I'd be doing it anyway, even after stirring up a whole can of worms, because I was gonna do it anyway if I couldn't find anyone to pass it off too. But thanks to modern technology; (what did we ever do before e-mail and FTP?); he had the file by early afternoon and had the situation fully under control by suppertime. What a relief. Now back to that 80,000 record monster. Thanks to those who called to sympathize or offer suggestions. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but only the pig enjoys it. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:21:28 -0600 Reply-To: bookend@theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Re: Continuous discussions with intervening illustrations > > I'm thinking that if this dilemma comes up often enough and seems > troublesome enough, maybe we should consider creating a new tool > (accompanied by an appropriate headnote) for readers of books whose > publishers would be willing to try it. A mnemonic page range annotation > might be helpful: since "i" for "interrupted" could easily be taken for > "illustrated", what about indicating interrupted or broken page ranges with > "b"? In the examples given above this option would give us "14-16b" and > "231-241b". I'll respond to this from a user's point of view (since I've mostly been a user of indexes, rather than a writer of them, I feel qualified). With a running headnote, this seems like a good idea. I would vote to make the mnemonic parenthetical - 14-16(interr) or 35-40(nc) for interrupted or noncontinuous. Or, to maintain the spirit of "passim", how about (ht) for "here and there"?! Susan Hernandez ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 06:36:54 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: E-mail address changed Hi, this is just to notify you that my E-mail address has changed to: TCOF@aol.com Susan Wilkerson