From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Wed Sep 16 15:46:21 1998 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:07:55 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9807B" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: Sarah Smith Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: List confusion I have two e-mail accounts. I intended to keep this one clear for Index-L mail. However, the inevitable happened: I had both windows going at once, and I accidentally typed and sent something to Index-L from the account I'm NOT subscribed from. I came over to this account and re-sent it from here, assuming that it would have been rejected (being from a non-subscribed account) the first time. Much to my surprise, I got a message back saying that my message was being rejected because it had already been posted. _Can_ a message be sent to Index-L from an unsubscribed account? To make matters even more confusing for me, I don't have the option for seeing my own Index-L posts toggled right now. (I can't remember how!) So I can't even check to see (a) if my post got there, and (b) where it apparently came from. AGHHH! Sorry, more confusion just in! The message that got bounced (for being a duplicate) just appeared in my inbox as from Index-L! How can I have received it through the list when it got rejected? And why would I be seeing it when I don't have that see-my-own-mail option toggled? (The only mail I've tried to send up til now was a reply to someone else's post, and this one was from scratch. Would that make any difference?) Congrats to anyone who can make heads or tails of this e-mail. :) Sorry to be such a spoon about this list stuff. I can re-post my original question if it never appeared in anyone else' inbox (it was about "in vivo" and "in vitro"). *sigh* -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:04:33 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Re: Cindex sorting "in" As a medical database indexer (and user of the medical/biological literature) I am sure it would be more correct for these to sort under I. (not being a Cindex user I can't help with the second). I use a thesaurus (MeSH) which has In Vitro as a subject heading, and entries in the resulting database file are retrieved by "in vitro" Sandra Henderson National Library of Australia > ---------- > From: Indexer[SMTP:indexer@COLBY.IXKS.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 1:40 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Cindex sorting "in" > > Hello, folks! > > This is a Cindex question. I have "in" as one of the prefixes to be > ignored when sorting subheadings. However, it is therefore sorting "in > vitro" and "in vivo" under V at the subhead level. First question: is > that the correct sort for this phrase? Second question: if it is more > correct to sort it under "I", then how do I make Cindex do that just for > those phrases and not for ordinary English use of "in"? (I know there's a > way to do this second thing, but I can't remember it!) > > TIA, > > -- Sarah Smith > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:46:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Re: Cindex sorting "in" In-Reply-To: <199807080415.AA057981303@mailjay.creighton.edu> On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Sandra Henderson wrote: [about in vitro/in vivo] > I am sure it would be more correct for these to sort under I. Thanks. Sorting them under "I" was my gut instinct, but it's good to have professional confirmation! > (not being a Cindex user I can't help with the second). I ended up putting a {i} before each one that I wanted sorted by I. (Cindex sorts things in curly-brackets without showing them in the index.) I just thought there might be another way... but, this works, so that's the way it'll be for now. :) (I'm trusting the curly-bracket things won't show up in WP or RTF file, either.) Thanks also for the "chill out" advice. I went downstairs and cleaned the mouse-cage. It worked almost as well as a cup of tea would have! :) -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:05:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AOL procedure for receiving files >From Ann's description, I gather that the files are reaching the intended AOL account but then the recipient is not able to open the file. If this is accurate, then the problem is almost certainly a matter of versions of Word. For example, if Ann is using Word97 on a Win95 system, only another Word97 (or Office97) user is going to be able to read the file without further action. Microsoft has available from their website a conversion utility which allows the recipient with Word 6, Word95 and Office95 to open the file. In other cases the sender (in this case Ann) must make an accomodation. The best approach to try sending the normal DOC file. If the file is received but cannot be opened then the sender (Ann) should do a File/Save as and convert her file to an RTF (Rich Text Format). [ Then, because the file will be going across the Internet, she should ZIP it (using WinZip or similar utility) before attaching the file (now named with the extension of .ZIP) to the message. AOL will automatically extract the ZIP file when the download is completed (unless the recipient has altered their AOL settings in which case they will need to manually extract the file) -- see my post from a couple days ago for more details on this. ] Thus far I've not encountered a situation where an older version of Word cannot open an RTF file created by a newer version of Word. (Should anyone have an example where this is not the case I would greatly appreciate details and, if possible, a copy of the RTF file.) The hardest part of troubleshooting computer-related problems is identifying what exactly IS the problem. In writing this posting, I have based my comments on the presumption that Ann's files are reaching the intended parties and that some recipients are claiming "the file is no good." While AOL will never be my favorite ISP, it has the advantage that it is predictable. If a transmission works for one client but not another, it is most likely that the problem lies not with AOL but with some component of the recipient's handling of the file. On the otherhand, if a transmission to Egbert works on Monday but not on Wednesday then the problem is most likely in the web of computers and mail servers which transmitted the second message. Anyone having problems exchanging files with an AOL subscriber is quite welcome to send me a couple samples. I have quite an array of computers & programs (I have 5 different word processors and multiple versions of each as well as a number of other tools at my disposal) and can check out the various options. Gale Rhoades Macrex Support Office, North America In a message dated 98-07-07 20:14:00 EDT, Ann Norcross wrote: << I guess I need to be a little more clear about the problem: This isn't about index files; just Microsoft Word .DOC files. I am sending these files to people with AOL accounts. Some people are having no problem saving the files and opening them in Word. Others are not able to do so. I don't have an AOL account, so I can't walk through the process of getting an email with an attachment, downloading that attachment, and saving it to disk. I'm hoping someone could write down those steps for my AOL users. I just don't remember what the commands, buttons, etc. are in AOL mail, so I can't tell my recipients exactly how to do it. Thanks for any help anyone could offer. >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:08:43 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan MacDougall Subject: Education and training for indexing Dear Indexers worldwide, I would very much appreciate your opinions on education and training for indexing by answering the questions below. I will summarise responses and forward to the list. Results will form part of research into education and training in indexing by the Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch. Please contact me if you want more information about the purpose of the project. Results will be summarised statistically and individual responses will remain confidential. 1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? (a) "Back of book" / book indexing [ ] (b) Serial / journal indexing [ ] (c) Document indexing / abstracting for databases [ ] (d) Internet / Web indexing [ ] (e) Other (please specify) 2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: (a) self taught? [ Yes / No ] (b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? [ Yes / No ] (c) through a correspondence course? [ Yes / No ] (d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? 3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level courses offer sufficient indexing content? [ Yes / No / Don't know] 4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? (a) introductory [ ] (b) some [ ] (c) substantial [ ] 5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing here. 6. What country do you live in? Regards, Susan MacDougall Project Officer Education and Training in Indexing Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS Indexer/librarian Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:44:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: Cindex sorting "in" The simplest way is to proceed the 'in' with a tilde: ~in vitro ~ is used in Cindex to "defeat" various automatic actions. Dave Ream -----Original Message----- From: Indexer To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 11:42 PM Subject: Cindex sorting "in" >Hello, folks! > >This is a Cindex question. I have "in" as one of the prefixes to be >ignored when sorting subheadings. However, it is therefore sorting "in >vitro" and "in vivo" under V at the subhead level. First question: is >that the correct sort for this phrase? Second question: if it is more >correct to sort it under "I", then how do I make Cindex do that just for >those phrases and not for ordinary English use of "in"? (I know there's a >way to do this second thing, but I can't remember it!) > >TIA, > >-- Sarah Smith > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:13:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Abbott, Dorothea" Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing >---------- >From: Susan MacDougall >Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 4:08 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Education and training for indexing > >Dear Indexers worldwide, > >I would very much appreciate your opinions on education and training for >indexing by answering the questions below. I will summarise responses and >forward to the list. Results will form part of research into education and >training in indexing by the Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region >Branch. Please contact me if you want more information about the purpose >of the project. Results will be summarised statistically and individual >responses will remain confidential. > >1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? > >(a) "Back of book" / book indexing [ ] >(b) Serial / journal indexing [ x ] >(c) Document indexing / abstracting for databases [ ] >(d) Internet / Web indexing [ ] >(e) Other (please specify) > >2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: > >(a) self taught? > >[ Yes ] > >(b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? > >[ No ] > >(c) through a correspondence course? > >[No ] > >(d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? [No] > >3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level >courses offer sufficient indexing content? > >[ Don't know] > >4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / >university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? > > >(a) introductory [ ] >(b) some [ ] >(c) substantial [ ] > >5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing >here. > >6. What country do you live in? USA >Regards, >Susan MacDougall >Project Officer >Education and Training in Indexing >Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch > > > > >""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" >Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS >Indexer/librarian >Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group >Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) >Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk >ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au >""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:21:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Celia McCoy Subject: web list of publishers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9419C1D87C62A2A9AA58A8DA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/law/acqs/pubr.html This list is useful not only to find work but to (quickly) verify publisher names and locations when copyediting references. Celia --------------9419C1D87C62A2A9AA58A8DA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="pubr.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="pubr.html" Content-Base: "http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/law/ acqs/pubr.html" AcqWeb's Directory of Publishers and Vendors
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--------------9419C1D87C62A2A9AA58A8DA-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:38:03 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing In-Reply-To: <199807080904.FAA24520@jane.penn.com> At 07:08 PM 7/8/98 +1100, you wrote: >Dear Indexers worldwide, >I would very much appreciate your opinions on education and training for >indexing >1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? >(a) "Back of book" / book indexing [xx] >2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: >(a) self taught? NO >(b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? NO >(c) through a correspondence course? NO >(d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? NO >3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level >courses offer sufficient indexing content? DON'T KNOW >4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / >university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? DON'T KNOW (SEE PREVIOUS ANSWERS) >5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing here.YOU DIDN'T MENTION APPRENTICESHIP, WHICH IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH I LEARNED. I RECOMMEND IT HIGHLY, AND I DON'T THINK I COULD HAVE LEARNED ANY OTHER WAY. I WAS IN MY FIFTIES AND I HAD BEEN A TECHNICAL EDITOR FOR SEVERAL DECADES, SO I HAD A BIG LOAD OF INGRAINED THINKING THAT I HAD TO CHANGE. FOR QUITE A WHILE I KEPT FINDING EGREGIOUS ERRORS AND NEGLIGENT EDITNG, AND I EVEN LOST AN ACCOUNT BECAUSE OF MY ATTITUDE (THE PUBLISHER REALLY WAS PRETTY SLACK). I HAD TO START THINKING IN NOUNS AND RELINQUISH THINKING IN VERBS (IT SOUNDS TRIVIAL, BUT IT WAS QUITE DIFFICULT). I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE HAD THE PATIENCE TO DEAL WITH A CORRESPONDENCE COURSE SUCH AS THE USDA OFFERS; I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT UNIVERSITY-BASED COURSES IN INDEXING. MY MENTOR LET ME FIGHT MY OWN WAY THROUGH MY DIFFICULTIES, AND I LEARNED EVEN AS I WAS GRUMBLING IRASCIBLY ABOUT ARCANE PROCEDURES. FOR A LONG TIME SHE READ MY "FINISHED" INDEXES, WHEREUPON I WOULD RE-EDIT THEM. I INSISTED ON THAT PRACTICE FOR QUITE A WHILE, AND THEN WE DROPPED IT. SHE HELPED ME FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH TIME I'D NEED FOR AN INDEX UNTIL I FOUND I COULD DO THAT REASONABLY WELL TOO. JUST THIS WEEK SHE GOT INTO A JAM, TWO BOOKS FOR ONE PUBLISHER DUE AT THE SAME TIME, AND SHE ASKED ME IF I'D BE ABLE TO FINISH ONE OF THEM FOR HER, AND I REALIZED THAT I'D COME A LONG WAY. ANOTHER DIFFICULTY I FACED IN PICKING UP INDEXING WAS THE RAGE I HAD AT BEING BLACKBALLED FROM HEALTH RESEARCH, THEN FINDING THAT NO ONE WOULD HIRE ME FOR ANYTHING, MUCH LESS WORK THAT I CONSIDERED WORTH DOING, BECAUSE OF MY AGE. NOW I DIRECT MY RAGE AT PUBLISHERS WHO DON'T PAY THEIR INDEXERS ENOUGH AND WANT INDEXES FOR 1,000-PAGE TEXTS 1 WEEK AFTER I RECEIVE THE LAST BATCH OF PROOFS, AT INSURORS WHO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST THE SELF-EMPLOYED, AND AT INDEXING ORGANIZATIONS THAT ACCEPT TERMS OFFERED BY INSURANCE COMPANIES THAT EXCLUDE HALF THEIR MEMBERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY. THIS COMES FROM AN EXCLUSIVE FOCUS ON DEVELOPING A "PROFESSIONAL" ORGANIZATION THAT KEEPS THE RIFF-RAFF OUT, NOT REALIZING THAT WE'RE ALL RIFF-RAFF AND NEED THE PROTECTION WE COULD GAIN FROM SOLIDARITY. >6. What country do you live in? US >Regards, >Susan MacDougall ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:44:42 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: goofed again Damn, I did it again. I didn't mean to broadcast my answers to Susan McDougall to y'all! (No secrets this time, in case you missed it.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing In-Reply-To: <199807080923.FAA00426@library.lib.binghamton.edu> A reminder: Please reply directly to Susan MacDougall (susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au), not to the list. Thanks. Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Susan MacDougall wrote: > Dear Indexers worldwide, > > I would very much appreciate your opinions on education and training for > indexing by answering the questions below. I will summarise responses and > forward to the list. Results will form part of research into education and > training in indexing by the Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region > Branch. Please contact me if you want more information about the purpose > of the project. Results will be summarised statistically and individual > responses will remain confidential. > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:18:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bryan and Kathy Hildebrand Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course Ann Norcross wrote: > > Toni wrote: > > > > >I am fairly new to this list and am also planning to enroll in the USDA > > >indexing course very soon. Needless to say, the content of this post is > > >very disturbing to me. I hope people who have responses will post to the > > >list. Thank you. > > And then Martha wrote: > > > Hi Toni - I'm a USDA drop out. There. I've said it. > > OK, as long as we're all coming out of the closet... I dropped > out too. Actually, I never started. Paid the money, got the > stuff, read the books (as Martha says, it did get me to read > Mulvaney in more depth) but was too busy being an indexing > apprentice and indexing books to actually DO the course. I > regret the money spent, and I regret not getting the benefit of > the course, because I've heard lots of people say lots of good > things about it, but... there you have it. > > And yes, I know I had a year or more to complete the course, and > could extend for another $50.00 or something, but... way more > time than that has already passed :-). > > -- > Ann Norcross > Crossover Information Services > (919) 852-0042 > mailto:norcross@ipass.net You mentioned being an apprentice. Could you explain how you found someone willing to take you on as an apprentice. I am taking the USDA course right now but I often thought that becoming someone's apprentice would be a better way to learn the ropes. Kathryn H ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:23:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: AOL procedure for receiving files I just sent an attached index file to a client NOT on AOL, and I was concerned about the problem -- it seems that any file sent to me by a non-AOL person arrives scrambled unless it is strictly text format. Soooo... I sent three files: a Word DOC file, an RTF file, and a text file. The client told me that two of the three were fine. The RTF file came through perfectly. She did not specify which of the other two did not arrive safely. It is my understanding that files zipped with PKZIP go through without a hitch, no matter what. I've got PKZIP, but only one of my clients uses it. AARRGGHH! Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:27:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: USDA Course Having taught indexing in three different institutions (college, undergraduate and graduate levels), it does not surprise me at all that the USDA course has a fairly high dropout rate. At the undergraduate and graduate level the courses are optional in the context of library/information studies. The majority of people taking the courses are not suited to indexing. They may find it very difficult, or may simply find they dislike it. Most, by the end of the course, feel that it was useful to learn, but that they would not want to work in the field. Since these are credit courses, they are unlikely to drop out after the course switch period. In the context of a distance learning course devoted to a specific type of indexing, I could well understand that a great many people find that it is not for them. The other aspect that I am sure affects the dropout rate (speaking from personal experience here), is that distance-learning courses stretch over a long period of time during which personal lives can take drastic turns. It is not like it is over in three months. What looked like a piece of cake in an orderly life in January can seem absolutely impossible come the chaos in May. And it is difficult for many people to stay focussed over a long period of time. Of the three distance learning courses I have taken, I finished one, dropped one because of personal changes, and am struggling to finish one that has simply taken too long for me to pull together. I wanted to take all of them, all were for credit, and none of the problems have anything to do with the course content or administration. All of which to say, I would be cautious judging the course by its attrition rate, especially without comparison with attrition rates in other courses and other institutions. Christine ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:48:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: AOL procedure for receiving files If you have PKZip or WinZip, you can create self-extracting executables. The recipient doesn't need and extraction tool then -- he or she just executes the file and it expands its components. By the way, the most recent version of WinZip includes capabilities for MIME-encoded documents. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know exactly what the issues are as far as transferring files by email? Is it simply that ASCII files are OK but binary files can cause problems? I send PDF files quite a lot and on occasion recipients have had problems opening them; I'm considering just ZIPping them (even though that doesn't reduce the PDF file size much, if any) for email transmission. John Sullivan Stratus Computer > -----Original Message----- > From: Sandra Topping [SMTP:SCTopping@AOL.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 9:24 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: AOL procedure for receiving files > > I just sent an attached index file to a client NOT on AOL, and I was > concerned > about the problem -- it seems that any file sent to me by a non-AOL person > arrives scrambled unless it is strictly text format. Soooo... I sent > three > files: a Word DOC file, an RTF file, and a text file. The client told me > that > two of the three were fine. The RTF file came through perfectly. She did > not > specify which of the other two did not arrive safely. It is my > understanding > that files zipped with PKZIP go through without a hitch, no matter what. > I've > got PKZIP, but only one of my clients uses it. AARRGGHH! > > Sandy > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:06:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melinda Davis Organization: Univ. of Tennessee College of Law Subject: A numerical index "Five rings, six crises, seven dwarfs, and 38 ways to win an argument : numerical lists you never knew or once knew and probably forgot" by John Boswell and Dan Starer. I bought this book from the Barnes and Noble catalog--it may well be on remainder tables elsewhere. It includes things like "the nine orders of angels," "the seven sisters (the constellation, the women's colleges, and the oil companies)," "the four Little Women," etc.--you get the idea--the lists are arranged by broad subject (American history, European history, Mythology, Sports and Games, etc.). The index is arranged by numerical order (all the twos, then threes, etc.) and under each numerical category, in page number order. I like the numerical part--I'm not so sure about the page number part--it means, for instance, that all three entries for the "seven sisters" are not together. But on the other hand, no numerical category is more than 3 columns (and it's short, i.e., not tall, book) so it's not a real hardship to scan the category. Anybody have other good examples of non-alphabetical indexes (either ones that work, or ones that are good examples of what not to do)? Melinda Davis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:21:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: BOB vs database indexing personalities (was USDA) Agreed. And I find myself tickled to death to refer to what I do for a living as "Bob" or, perhaps, "bobbing." Bob. Here's what's in my head: a nerdy indexer guy (now don't all you real Bobs get offended. This is just my own little visual for what I do, 'kay?!), very studious, tall, skinny, great vocabulary, very organized, kinda cute. Bob. He's in my head; he earns my money; he's a cool guy. Ann (who did not get near enough sleep this week... obviously!) Elinor Lindheimer wrote: > > What a marvelous post from Shelley Greenhouse! She has felt intimidated by > back-of-the-book indexing, and I have always felt intimidated by database > indexing. Yes, they are very different, and the USDA course deals with > back-of-the-book indexing only. > > Whenever an author sent me a list of terms to include, I cringed, because I > felt constrained by the terms. I think database indexing must be much, much > harder--and so it's refreshing to hear of someone who feels exactly the > same, the other way around! Guess it's what you know, and how long you've > been doing it.... > > Elinor Lindheimer > elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:42:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: program Y2K capability Craig Brown spoke of program Y2K capability: I presume all the leading Windows programs are Y2K capable, but what about Windows 3.1 programs, and old DOS standbys like WordPerfect 5.1? Anybody know how to find out about them? And for that matter, what about all our indexing programs? TIA, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:39:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: List confusion Sarah Smith wrote: > > I have two e-mail accounts. I intended to keep this one clear for > Index-L mail. However, the inevitable happened: I had both windows going > at once, and I accidentally typed and sent something to Index-L from the > account I'm NOT subscribed from. > > I came over to this account and re-sent it from here, assuming that > it would have been rejected (being from a non-subscribed account) the > first time. Much to my surprise, I got a message back saying that my > message was being rejected because it had already been posted. _Can_ a > message be sent to Index-L from an unsubscribed account? > > To make matters even more confusing for me, I don't have the option for > seeing my own Index-L posts toggled right now. (I can't remember how!) Send this command: SET Index-l REPRO to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU > So I can't even check to see (a) if my post got there, and (b) where it > apparently came from. The in vivo/in vitro post I'm seeing comes from the same userid that this one did. > AGHHH! Sorry, more confusion just in! The message that got bounced (for > being a duplicate) just appeared in my inbox as from Index-L! How can I > have received it through the list when it got rejected? If the original post, from the non-Index-L account, did indeed get posted, then you are seeing it in your regular index-l account because it is a "foreign" post. That is, your regular index-l account doesn't think the post is from itself, so you are seeing it. (This answer, of course, is contradicted by my answer to the immediately previous question.) See? :-) > And why would I > be seeing it when I don't have that see-my-own-mail option toggled? (The > only mail I've tried to send up til now was a reply to someone else's > post, and this one was from scratch. Would that make any difference?) > > Congrats to anyone who can make heads or tails of this e-mail. :) Sorry > to be such a spoon about this list stuff. I can re-post my original > question if it never appeared in anyone else' inbox (it was about "in > vivo" and "in vitro"). > > *sigh* > > -- Sarah Smith -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: johnh@aiche.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Howe Organization: AIChE Subject: Re: program Y2K capability Here's a little trick I learned from a long-time programmer. In DOS, the date prompt is two characters each for day, month and year (mm-dd-yy). But, if you enter the year as four digits, say 2005, it will accept it. I've tried this on a couple of different versions of DOS and it works for years well into the next millenium. -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ John Howe Managing Editor, Chemical Engineering Progress American Institute of Chemical Engineers 345 E. 47th St. New York, NY 10017-2395 Phone: 212-705-7334 - Fax: 212-705-7812 johnh@aiche.org - http://www.aiche.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:07:06 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: program Y2K capability The problem concerning Y2K is not so much whether a program will accept a date in the next century as much as what it does with it. If the computer accepts your mortgage payment dated January 4, 2000, and then records that it received the payment on January 4, 1900, you will soon get a note from your mortgage company saying your payment hasn't been received. Those programs not Y2K complaint look at the last two digits, throwing away the first two, and the program assumes 19 as the first two. That's where the trouble begins. This problem gets sticky when a program that is Y2K compliant gets files or information from a program that isn't. Within a company, bank, or federal agency, for instance end-to-end testing of that entitiy's computers can show no problems. Then, a file or some data coming into that system from another system that isn't Y2K compliant is the unknown quantity. In these days of international trading and banking, these are where the problems may arise. In the case of phone companies, for example, call records of calls you make on your cell phone when out of your normal calling area, can cause problems. Imagine if you will that you start your call before midnight on December 31, 1999 and hang up a few minutes after midnight on January 1, 2000. If that record is recorded in a Y2K non-compliant system, what happens when it gets passed into a Y2K compliant system? I don't know, and often neither do the people running the system. You may get billed for no call because the system comes to its knees, or you may get billed for a call that started at the beginning of the 20th century and ended at the end of the century. Now there's a shocker of a phone bill. :-) The biggest problems will occur, if they occur at all, in those systems that use dates in computing other values. If the system is Y2K compliant, no problem. If it isn't, who knows. Think of the doom sayers as those wandering around on street corners or speaking on radio talk shows, forecasting the end of the world. We laugh, but kind of keep an eye out for any strange happenings. I suspect, as others have mentioned, that most systems will have minor hiccups, some systems will drop quickly to their knees to stay there for some time, and the world will rock along as it has for eons. There won't be instant catastrophe, with airplanes falling from the sky and automobiles careening off the highways because their computers can't figure out what century it is. There will be some problems, but probably nothing very exciting. There'll probably be more hype than substance. art elser ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:16:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course Perhaps you could post your response to the list. Thanks. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan and Kathy Hildebrand [SMTP:bhildebr@ALPHA.CLARION-NET.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 5:18 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course > >You mentioned being an apprentice. Could you explain how you found >someone willing to take you on as an apprentice. I am taking the USDA >course right now but I often thought that becoming someone's apprentice >would be a better way to learn the ropes. >Kathryn H ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:14:00 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: BOB vs database indexing personalities (was USDA) In-Reply-To: <199807081425.HAA07932@neti.saber.net> Ann, You crack me up. I'll never think of "Bob" again in the same way. Naomi >Agreed. > >And I find myself tickled to death to refer to what I do for a >living as "Bob" or, perhaps, "bobbing." > >Bob. Here's what's in my head: a nerdy indexer guy (now don't >all you real Bobs get offended. This is just my own little >visual for what I do, 'kay?!), very studious, tall, skinny, great >vocabulary, very organized, kinda cute. Bob. He's in my head; >he earns my money; he's a cool guy. > >Ann (who did not get near enough sleep this week... obviously!) ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer, M.A. POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "And in such indexes, although small pricks to their subsequent volumes, there is seen the baby figure of the giant mass of things to come at large." William Shakespeare: "Troilus and Cressida" ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:19:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: women's names Now, here's an indexing question from your unsually-lurking moderator: I am dusting off my indexing skills for a sabbatical project. The project involves creating an index to an extensive collection of letters dating from about 1820 to 1931. My first question is (and there are sure to be more!): What is the prefered way to index women's names? Maiden name with cross reference from the married name or visa-versa? Meeks, Sarah Tyner Tyner, Sarah Meeks See Meeks, Sarah Tyner I prefer not to double-post. TIA Charlotte Skuster ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:29:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Womens' names correction The example I gave was incorrect. You all must be scratching your heads. Should be: Tyner, Sarah Meeks....22 Meeks, Sarah...See Tyner, Sarah Meeks or Meeks, Sarah....22 Tyner, Sarah Meeks...See Meeks, Sarah Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:35:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: women's names In-Reply-To: <199807081923.PAA16728@mail4.bellsouth.net> Well, first off, when re-inverted, your second entry is "Sarah Meeks Tyner,"... which is not the equivalent of "Sarah Tyner Meeks." I've done a number of collections (edited & indexed) of Civil War correspondence, and the preferred method of listing women in such volumes *is* by double-posting. (Sorry...) In any case, I would ordinarily list this lady as "Tyner, Sarah (Meeks)"; the common usage, understood by most readers, is to put the maiden name in parentheses. Then I would make the second entry simply "Meeks, Sarah." (Well, that's not *quite* double-posting!) Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Charlotte Skuster > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 2:19 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: women's names > > > Now, here's an indexing question from your unsually-lurking moderator: > > I am dusting off my indexing skills for a sabbatical project. The project > involves creating an index to an extensive collection of letters dating > from about 1820 to 1931. My first question is (and there are sure to be > more!): What is the prefered way to index women's names? Maiden name > with cross reference from the married name or visa-versa? > > Meeks, Sarah Tyner > Tyner, Sarah Meeks > See Meeks, Sarah Tyner > > I prefer not to double-post. > > > TIA > > Charlotte Skuster > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: horne@fwb.gulf.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Horne Subject: Y2K An observation on the problem, which I had regarded as probably going to be handled easily - my Internet Service Provided is having serious problems with it regarding credit card billing when the cards expire in 2000 or later. Manual re-billing works, but their three-year-old oh-so-sophisticated software doesn't, and they haven't managed a fix since the problem started at the beginning of the year. I believe that the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times" may apply here. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:18:53 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: Y2K Huh, that's interesting. I read a post recently in which someone said no one seemed to be having problems with credit cards with expiration dates after 2000. Guess it depends strictly on the software the person us using. I would guess that the larger the firm developing the software, the better chance someone has taken Y2K into account. I'm retired AF, and I worry a bit that the government won't get it's financial computer software fixed in time to keep my retirement checks coming. But that will probably be a temporary glitch that will really put some folks into a hole, but won't signal the end of humanity as we know it. art ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:38:14 -0400 Reply-To: William Meisheid Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: Y2K Though there are those who say the problem is overrated and nothing "Ammageddish" will happen. While I am not a doomsayer either, I remind them of the purvasiveness of the situation and the fact that when you combine the extreme interrelatedness of our connected, information age society with Murphy's law, well... As they say in used chariot sales "caveat emptor". ________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified RoboHELP Training http://www.sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 70713.2225@compuserve.com or wgm@sageline.com Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP training ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:24:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: subjectivity in indexing In-Reply-To: <199807080413.XAA22107@mixcom.mixcom.com> Michael K. Smith said: > >Your suspicion is absolutely right: Five different indexers won't produce >identical indexes from the same pages, any more than five different authors >could have written identical books on the same topic I quite agree with Michael. Not only the phrasing of entries but also whether something gets indexed at all (or is viewed as a passing mention) depends on how it strikes the individual indexer. When I teach indexing, I never expect a student's index to match mine exactly, BUT I do point out glaring omissions. For example, suppose the text says, "On the night of 5 June, following the decision of General Eisenhower, the BBC sent out coded messages to Resistance forces prepared to execute sabotage. By setting off operations throughout the country, Eisenhower hoped to keep the Germans confused about the actual place of the landing and give the Allied forces longer to establish a beachhead on the Normandy coast." I would expect a student to pick out at least the following for main headings: BBC Eisenhower, Dwight D. Resistance and then either or both of these: Allied landing at Normandy Normandy landing For this particular book, I wouldn't expect the student to index "Germans," because the whole book is about the Germans in WWII. If subentries are needed, they can be phrased in all sorts of ways. I tend to criticize the phrasing of my students' subs only if they are too long, cryptic/confusing, or inconsistent with the style used elsewhere. For example, a subentry for "Resistance" might read "sabotage by," "sabotage plans of," "receives Eisenhower's sabotage instructions," or whatever. So although I do agree that there's quite a bit of subjectivity, I would consider it a mistake not to index, e.g., "BBC" here. I hope this helps. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:40:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Cindex sorting "in" In-Reply-To: <199807080413.XAA22107@mixcom.mixcom.com> >This is a Cindex question. I have "in" as one of the prefixes to be >ignored when sorting subheadings. However, it is therefore sorting "in >vitro" and "in vivo" under V at the subhead level. First question: is >that the correct sort for this phrase? Second question: if it is more >correct to sort it under "I", then how do I make Cindex do that just for >those phrases and not for ordinary English use of "in"? (I know there's a >way to do this second thing, but I can't remember it!) > Yes, "in vitro" and "in vivo" should definitely be sorted in the I's. To do that, all you have to do is include an extra "in" in curly brackets (I have Cindex for the Mac, BTW): in{in} vitro in{in} vivo That forces Cindex to pay attention to "in" in just those places, but the extra "in" is hidden text and doesn't print. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:51:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: subjectivity in indexing I'd probably also index it under "D-day." :-) -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: Carol Roberts [SMTP:Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 4:24 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: subjectivity in indexing > > Michael K. Smith said: > > > >Your suspicion is absolutely right: Five different indexers won't produce > >identical indexes from the same pages, any more than five different > authors > >could have written identical books on the same topic > > I quite agree with Michael. Not only the phrasing of entries but also > whether something gets indexed at all (or is viewed as a passing mention) > depends on how it strikes the individual indexer. When I teach indexing, I > never expect a student's index to match mine exactly, BUT I do point out > glaring omissions. > > For example, suppose the text says, > > "On the night of 5 June, following the decision of General Eisenhower, the > BBC sent out coded messages to Resistance forces prepared to execute > sabotage. By setting off operations throughout the country, Eisenhower > hoped to keep the Germans confused about the actual place of the landing > and give the Allied forces longer to establish a beachhead on the Normandy > coast." > > I would expect a student to pick out at least the following for main > headings: > > BBC > Eisenhower, Dwight D. > Resistance > > and then either or both of these: > > Allied landing at Normandy > Normandy landing > > For this particular book, I wouldn't expect the student to index > "Germans," > because the whole book is about the Germans in WWII. > > If subentries are needed, they can be phrased in all sorts of ways. I tend > to criticize the phrasing of my students' subs only if they are too long, > cryptic/confusing, or inconsistent with the style used elsewhere. For > example, a subentry for "Resistance" might read "sabotage by," "sabotage > plans of," "receives Eisenhower's sabotage instructions," or whatever. > > So although I do agree that there's quite a bit of subjectivity, I would > consider it a mistake not to index, e.g., "BBC" here. I hope this helps. > > Cheers, > > > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:54:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Y2K Wall Street Week offered the following suggestions to protect your assessts. 1. Have extra cash on hand. 2. Obtain copies of all your brokage accounts, bank accounts and any other place you keep money showing the transactions in your account for October, November and December 3. Check your accounts carefully for amounts that were to be deposited in December. 4. Keep records of all payments made in November/December and make sure they have been posted to your account. Just a few little precautions to take. Roberta Horowitz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:43:59 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Accuracy A gripe I can't keep to myself any longer: Nancy Mulvany's book is mentioned favourably two or three times a week on Index-L. I have been waiting for a long time for someone to spell her name correctly, so that I could congratulate them. Now it looks as if Hans Wellisch is in trouble too (see last example below). Some recent examples: >OK, as long as we're all coming out of the closet... I dropped out too. Actually, I never started. Paid the money, got the stuff, read the books (as Martha says, it did get me to read Mulvaney in more depth) but was too busy being an indexing apprentice and indexing books to actually DO the course. >But I emphasize that the lessons led me to read Mulvaney's excellent book with the kind of attention that helped me to understand indexing. >2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: It was (e): I completed half the USDA correspondence course (I read it all), read Mulvaney's book several times in great depth, read Wellish and Knight, wrote indexes of books with indexes and then compared mine to the one in the book, and I count Index-L as the BEST resource available once a person gets a grounding in the basics. This is not a personal attack on the people who posted those messages. It's just that I thought one of the basic requirements for indexing was accuracy and attention to detail. Alan -- **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:29:49 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: E: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: E: Original tag data was -> Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course Thanks for your interest - as one answer said, "Your response may be overwhelming!" So far it has been. Several people raised good questions, and I will ponder answers in the next few days and get off a mailing to all who replied. Charles Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:31:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Accuracy Dear Allen, Thanks! You're absolutely right. Ann (hee hee) Alan Walker wrote: > > A gripe I can't keep to myself any longer: > > Nancy Mulvany's book is mentioned favourably two or three times a week on > Index-L. I have been waiting for a long time for someone to spell her name > correctly, so that I could congratulate them. Now it looks as if Hans > Wellisch is in trouble too (see last example below). > > Some recent examples: > > >OK, as long as we're all coming out of the closet... I dropped > out too. Actually, I never started. Paid the money, got the > stuff, read the books (as Martha says, it did get me to read > Mulvaney in more depth) but was too busy being an indexing > apprentice and indexing books to actually DO the course. > > >But I emphasize that the lessons led me > to read Mulvaney's excellent book with the kind of attention that helped me > to understand indexing. > > >2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: > It was (e): I completed half the USDA correspondence course (I read it > all), read Mulvaney's book several times in great depth, read Wellish and > Knight, wrote indexes of books with indexes and then compared mine to the > one in the book, and I count Index-L as the BEST resource available once a > person gets a grounding in the basics. > > This is not a personal attack on the people who posted those messages. It's > just that I thought one of the basic requirements for indexing was accuracy > and attention to detail. > > Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:50:53 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Cindex sorting "in" At 03:40 PM 8/07/98 -0500, you wrote: >>This is a Cindex question. I have "in" as one of the prefixes to be >>ignored when sorting subheadings. However, it is therefore sorting "in >>vitro" and "in vivo" under V at the subhead level. First question: is >>that the correct sort for this phrase? Second question: if it is more >>correct to sort it under "I", then how do I make Cindex do that just for >>those phrases and not for ordinary English use of "in"? (I know there's a >>way to do this second thing, but I can't remember it!) This thread reminds that in the early days of online searching Dialog had (I think) nine stop-words, but had to cut it back to seven. They re-instated "in" and "a" so that people could search on phrases like "in vitro" and "vitamin A". Ignoring any word in sorting or searching is potentially dangerous. Alan -- **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:49:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Text books I haven't got to the point where I am overbooked yet. It takes a lot of work to develop a list of publishers, so I can't offer them to you. The discussion on index-L lately has pointed out many good sources of publishers. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing On Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:56:37 -0600 "Schultz, Darrel" writes: >I would be interested in contacting any of your textbook publishers if >you >are overbooked and need to pass on some work. >Thanks. >Darrel Schultz >darrel_schultz@jdedwards.com > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Shirley K Warkentin [SMTP:indexer@JUNO.COM] >> Sent: Saturday, July 04, 1998 1:49 PM >> To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >> Subject: Re: Text books >> >> On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:35:01 EDT Carol Deason >writes: >> >Do any of you index textbooks? Are textbooks indexed by >freelancers? >> >Who >> >does the indexing for foreign language textbooks? >> > >> I indexed a mathematics textbook last year and have a list of >several >> textbook publishers who use freelancers. >> >> Shirley Warkentin >> Cornerstone Indexing >> BUILDING A BETTER BOOK >> indexer@juno.com >> >> >_____________________________________________________________________ >> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:44:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Accuracy In-Reply-To: <199807082131.RAA26785@camel16.mindspring.com> At 07:43 AM 7/9/98 +1000, you wrote: >This is not a personal attack on the people who posted those messages. It's >just that I thought one of the basic requirements for indexing was accuracy >and attention to detail. And the ability to distinguish when such accuracy is and is not required. E-mail and newsgroup postings are generally held to a lower standard than published works done for hire. Dick Dick Evans infodex@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:01:14 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Accuracy At 05:31 PM 8/07/98 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Allen, > >Thanks! You're absolutely right. > >Ann (hee hee) > Dear Anne, Thanks for your support. Alan (hee hee hee) -- **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:51:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Text books In-Reply-To: <199807082137.RAA15726@camel26.mindspring.com> At 01:49 PM 7/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >I haven't got to the point where I am overbooked yet. It takes a lot of >work to develop a list of publishers, so I can't offer them to you. This brings up a point near and dear to my heart. Over the years, I have seen posts to this list (usually by newcomers seeking to get started in the business) asking indexers to post lists of publishers and clients. A list of one's clients is a prized resource, the basis on which one's business is built. Publishing such a hard-won list is above and beyond the call of duty. It's OK to teach people to fish, but do you really want to give away your favorite fishing holes? Dick Evans Dick Evans infodex@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:26:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Cnudde Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course In-Reply-To: <199807071739.NAA05124@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> I, too, am a USDA "dropout"--at least, I think I am. I finished lessons 1-9, but was very frustrated with the length of time it took to receive feedback. At one point last year, I waited five months for a reply (I did send in another lesson) but with that wait, I lost a lot of momentum and pleasure in the course. The normal time between lessons being returned was about two months. I, also, had various administrative problems. On the good side, my instructor was excellent in her comments, but the wait simply threw me off. I had hoped to complete the course within a year and then within a year and a half, but I confess I've lost the fun of it. I do hope to finish on my own one of these days. Sue Cnudde Sue Cnudde Goldstein Library Florida State University Tallahassee, FL 32306-2100 850-644-0461 cnud@freenet.tlh.fl.us scnudde@mailer.fsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: vanhussp@citrine.indstate.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Van Huss Organization: Indiana State University Subject: REVISED EDITION What would be the best way to prepare a bid proposal for an index of a revised edition. How do you quote a bid which will cover the new indexed material and also cover making revisions in the original pagination of the book. Could I still charge per page? Would each page revision be considered the same as an indexable page. Pamela ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:23:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Accuracy In-Reply-To: <199807082139.OAA14489@decibel.electriciti.com> I think it is a clear example of the Peter Principle that mistakes will most often be made with professional colleages. I prefer an informal agreement not to jump on folks for typos. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:32:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Accuracy I agree completely. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Pam Rider [SMTP:prider@ELECTRICITI.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 11:23 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Accuracy > > I think it is a clear example of the Peter Principle that mistakes > will > most often be made with professional colleages. > > I prefer an informal agreement not to jump on folks for typos. > Pam Rider > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:09:09 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Halliday Subject: Society of Indexers - web site launched I am pleased to be able to tell you that the Society of Indexers' web site is now on line at the following URL: http://www.socind.demon.co.uk/ Webmasters for sites related to the activities of the Society are cordially invited to link to the site. John Halliday SI Webmaster _________________________________________________________________ John Halliday The Old Maltsters : Pulham St Mary: Diss : Norfolk IP21 4QT : England : phone +44 (0)1379 676586 : fax +44 (0)1379 608452 : _____________email ________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: INFO: Armageddon Testing For those interested in testing your PCs for Y2000 compliance, here are the instructions from the Yourdon's book that I mentioned in an earlier posting. The authors' footnotes are within angle brackets <>, and MY notes are in square brackets []. [I would further suggest that, if you use Norton Utilities, PC911, or similar program, your RESTORE disk is updated and handy.] "...this problem exists most commonly in the older computers, especially the Intel-based machines built prior to 1996. As far as we have been able to tell, none of the Macintosh computers have this kind of rollover problem at the hardware level (which does _not_ mean that Mac applications are safe). As for the various other kinds of computers, you'll have to test them yourself. A common way of doing this (after you have safely backed up whatever files are important to you!) is to manually reset the system clock on your computer 11:59 PM on December 31, 1999 and then wait to see what happens a minute later. If it appears that the Year-2000 rollover has worked correctly, then repeat the experiment -- but turn your computer off after you've set the clock to 11:59 PM on December 31, 1999; wait a few minutes, and power the machine back on again. "If it turns out that your computer does have a hardware and/or BIOS problem, you may be able to get a replacement at little or no cost. BIOS upgrades are typically available free from the vendor, and a replacement clock is likely to cost only a few dollars. The biggest problem will be that the the hardware vendors are not very interested in servicing and repairing vintage 1983 PCs anymore, nor are the local computer stores. You may have to shop around, read through the back pages of computer magazines, and talk to your friends..." [My feelings, as a technician, is that since the computer must be opened anyway to replace a BIOS chip, you might as well replace the whole motherboard; they currently cost less than most software.] "...even if the hardware and BIOS are Year-2000-compliant, the operating system may inject its own Year-2000 errors....the bad news: Most of the older versions of Microsoft's MS-DOS and MS Windows 3.1 operating systems will perform a Year-2000 rollover to January 4, 1980. The good new is that Microsoft Windows 95, Windows NT, and Apple's Mac OS operating systems are fully Year-2000-compliant. Thus, if your home PC environment involves relatively new hardware (e.g., a Pentium-based computer or a Mac PowerPC) and an up-to-date operating system, you're probably safe. But if you're still running on an old 286- or 386-class Intel computer, and if you're still running DOS or Windows 3.1, you may be in trouble." [I have tried all the above on three of my systems with the expected results, except a possible glitch with System Comnmander. NB that the above instructions DO NOT test application behaviour. Kappelman details a procedure for checking spreadsheet programs, but it's too complicated for me to bother transcribing.] Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:32:43 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Accuracy Alan Walker spoke of misspellings of names everyone should know: >This is not a personal attack on the people who posted those messages. It's >just that I thought one of the basic requirements for indexing was accuracy >and attention to detail. > And I wanted to second that thought. I have seen postings here with serious grammatical and spelling errors (and I'm not talking about the occasional typo, which can fall from any of our fingers in our haste to get our thoughts on the screen). When I see such postings, I think that if I were in a position to refer a job to another indexer, I would automatically eliminate those whose writing and/or spelling was poor. Accuracy and attention to detail are prerequisites for good indexing. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:32:07 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Millennium bug and Michelangelo Virus In-Reply-To: <04094381037496@domain1.bigpond.com> Does anyone else see parallels between the Millennium bug and the Michelangelo Virus which was going to bring the computing world to its knees back in 1996 or so? That was another 'time bomb' which was set to go off in all kinds of unexpected places on Michelangelo's birthday. In both cases the people making the most noise about it were the ones who were selling 'solutions'. The Michelangelo Virus turned out to be a damp squib, and I suspect that the Millennium bug might be a bit of a fizzer too. Pity, in a way - I was rather looking forward to all the excitement. Jonathan =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring Email: Diagonal@bigpond.com Internet Beginner's Group Newsletter: http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal/newsletr ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:33:33 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: women's names Charlotte Skuster wrote: > I am dusting off my indexing skills for a sabbatical project. The project > involves creating an index to an extensive collection of letters dating > from about 1820 to 1931. My first question is (and there are sure to be > more!): What is the prefered way to index women's names? Maiden name > with cross reference from the married name or visa-versa? > > Meeks, Sarah Tyner > Tyner, Sarah Meeks > See Meeks, Sarah Tyner > I'd say, it depends how she is known. Emmeline Pankhurst under her maiden name crossreferred wouldn't work - who knows her maiden name? (Founder of the Suffragettes, in case the name doesn't mean anything over the Atlantic.) On the other hand, many women became known before they married and may not be known by their husband's name, indeed they may have stopped doing - whatever - on marriage. However, I can't think of an example! So go by how she is best known rather than sticking to Married or Maiden. Sounds an interesting project. I'm looking forward to hearing more -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:59:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: My USDA experience is improving Just wanted to update the list about the negative experience I was having with the USDA course. I was able to reach someone by e-mail concerning my defective course manual (many missing pages), and she said she'd send a new one right away. She also e-mailed me the Lesson 1 questions so I could go ahead and finish them. Hopefully this is the end of the confusion! Despite my prior frustration, I am looking forward to working through the course. Anne -------------------------------------------- Anne B. Day Editorial Production Manager ph: (215) 731-2227 Professional Jeweler magazine fax: (215) 545-9629 Bond Communications aday@professionaljeweler.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:44:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing In a message dated 98-07-08 05:10:54 EDT, you write: << 1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? (a) "Back of book" / book indexing [X] (b) Serial / journal indexing [ X ] (c) Document indexing / abstracting for databases [ ] (d) Internet / Web indexing [ ] (e) Other (please specify) 2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: (a) self taught? [ No ] (b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? [ No ] (c) through a correspondence course? [ No ] (d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? Yes 3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level courses offer sufficient indexing content? [ Don't know] 4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? Don't know 5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing here. I came to indexing from book cataloging. I believe there is a knack to it. People seem to find it either great fun or impossible! I think teaching with index cards first is a good way to learn cataloging and indexing both because it encourages students to learn the underlying structure of the information being considered. (Later, of course, it is wasteful not to avail oneself of computer software.) 6. What country do you live in? USA Regards, Susan MacDougall Project Officer Education and Training in Indexing Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:36:50 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: women's names In-Reply-To: >Charlotte Skuster wrote: > What is the prefered way to index women's names? Maiden name >> with cross reference from the married name or visa-versa? Then Christine Headley wrote: > >I'd say, it depends how she is known. Emmeline Pankhurst under her maiden >name crossreferred wouldn't work - who knows her maiden name? (Founder of the >Suffragettes, in case the name doesn't mean anything over the Atlantic.) > >So go by how she is best known rather than sticking to Married or Maiden. An example that springs to mind (also this side of the Atlantic) is Cherie Blair/Booth. In this case she is equally well known by both names but in different circumstances (her own professional life as Booth, and the prime minister's wife as Blair). I suspect that I will have to make a decision on this one imminently as I am just about to embark on indexing a book on the 1997 General Election. I guess that (if she is in the book) I will put her under Blair with a cross-ref from Booth. Whereas, if the book was about emminent lawyers I would put her under Booth with Blair cross-ref. Margaret Binns ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:09:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Accuracy Elinor Lindheimer wrote: This is not a personal attack on the people who posted those messages. It's >just that I thought one of the basic requirements for indexing was accuracy >and attention to detail. > Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Cookbook Indexing Questions Hi everyone, I am indexing a cookbook. In this book the author has quoted lots of cookbooks which were published in 18th and 19th centuries. (As a matter of fact, she has 'borrowed/used' some of the recipes from those books in her current book). Whenever she mentions the name of the cookbook, she also mentions the year of the publication of that particular cookbook in parens. Mostly in most of indexes I see publications listed with author's name in parens. I wanted to know what is the most acceptable method of listing publications? For example, Food and Cookery for the Sick and Convalescent (1904), 46 Food and Cookery for the Sick and Convalescent (Farmer), 46 Food and Cookery for the Sick and Convalescent, 46 which entry looks more appropriate. I myself prefer the 2nd one. Thanks for all the help in advance. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services Sahai-Co@msn.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:18:35 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: BOB vs database indexing personalities In-Reply-To: <04094381037496@domain1.bigpond.com> I think database indexing can be more frustrating, as you have to use the terminology you are provided with, even when you feel nothing is appropriate. (An ideal system also lets you choose uncontrolled terms). With book indexing you can usually use whichever terms you choose to best describe the topics you think are important. The only 'easy' indexing I have ever done has been one shallow book index and one shallow periodical index. I think that in database indexing it is possible to be unaware of either your failures or your successes. When I choose a heading from the controlled vocabulary I think I have chosen the best one. If it doesn't fit the subject perfectly I can blame that on the availability of terms in the controlled vocabulary. The expert indexer might choose the best subject heading and just assume that everyone else would have chosen the same one. So what seems obvious to the expert, might actually be an unrecognised talent. (Does this make sense?) I also used a dictionary much more with database indexing. I think there is more assumed knowledge in a journal article, whereas a well written book gives you the background information so you learn what you need to as you go. A database indexer also covers a range of subjects whereas a book indexer can say no to a subject they are totally unfamiliar with or uninterested in. I can remember indexing an article about waves which was all jargon. I couldn't tell if they were talking about radio waves or ocean waves or whatever. This is largely a failing of article writers who don't bother to 'waste' one sentence to put their work in context and tell you in Plain English what the hell they are talking about. So anyhow, I have done both and certainly wouldn't call one easy and one hard. Glenda. > What a marvelous post from Shelley Greenhouse! She has felt intimidated by > back-of-the-book indexing, and I have always felt intimidated by database > indexing. Yes, they are very different, and the USDA course deals with > back-of-the-book indexing only. > > Whenever an author sent me a list of terms to include, I cringed, > because I > felt constrained by the terms. I think database indexing must be > much, much > harder--and so it's refreshing to hear of someone who feels exactly the > same, the other way around! Guess it's what you know, and how long you've > been doing it.... > > Elinor Lindheimer > elinorl@mcn.org > > ------------------------------ > > End of INDEX-L Digest - 6 Jul 1998 to 7 Jul 1998 > ************************************************ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:18:32 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: sub-subentries (long) In-Reply-To: <04094381037496@domain1.bigpond.com> Firstly, I avoid sub-subentries like the plague. I would possibly have entries: lung cancer chemotherapy diagnosis lungs blood vessels and then a reference from cancer saying cancer, see also lung cancer (if there are only one or two specific cancers) or cancer, see also names of specific cancers, e.g. lung cancer ( I got the idea of putting the example (e.g. lung cancer) from Index-L after an author queried an reference like 'cancer, see also names of specific cancers' which I had written, saying they couldn't find 'names of specific cancers' under 'n'!) > > The example used in the book is > > lungs > blood vessels > cancer > chemotherapy > diagnosis > surgery > > Welisch recommends double-posting this as either > > cancer > bladder > lungs, see lungs > stomach > > or > > cancer, see names of organs (preferred) > and not as > cancer > bladder > lungs > chemotherapy > diagnosis > surgery > stomach > I have to admit that I've been including the sub-subentries in both > locations, since length of the index is not an issue for my > publisher. (Actually, longer is better.) What do you think? Is it > better indexing practice to double-post the subheadings or to > include "see" references to the main heading? If Wellisch uses sub-subheadings in one place then I can't see why he wouldn't use them in the other. The general rule is to double-post if it takes no more space (or if space is not a problem) and this should apply to subheadings as much as to headings. But like I said above, I don't think I would follow either of his approaches. Depends on the book of course. Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:58:36 -0600 Reply-To: mcnulty@montana.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne and Moose McNulty Subject: Re: subjectivity in indexing Thanks to all those who replied to my questions regarding subjectivity in indexing!! The more I practice indexing, the greater respect I have for all of you. This profession is definitely not as easy as people may think!!! Keep up the good work. Joanne mcnulty@montana.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:31:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Deason Subject: To Students of USDA I'm just starting the USDA course today and was wondering if anyone would like to start an e-mailing list of indexing students----just to discuss the course and perhaps be of help to one another. If you think this is a good idea you can e-mail me personally at "Darwini@aol.com" and I will add you to the list and send the list to one another. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:05:18 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Re: subjectivity in indexing Carol and others, I am nearly finished with the USDA course (on lesson 10 now) and was very intrigued by the example problem you posed. > > For example, suppose the text says, > > "On the night of 5 June, following the decision of General Eisenhower, the > BBC sent out coded messages to Resistance forces prepared to execute > sabotage. By setting off operations throughout the country, Eisenhower > hoped to keep the Germans confused about the actual place of the landing > and give the Allied forces longer to establish a beachhead on the Normandy > coast." > > I would expect a student to pick out at least the following for main headings: > > BBC > Eisenhower, Dwight D. > Resistance > > and then either or both of these: > > Allied landing at Normandy > Normandy landing > I came up with BBC D-Day Eisenhower, Dwight D. Resistance I feel that this type of exercise is just what I need to sharpen my skills in heading selection. I didn't feel that the curriculum of the USDA course really addressed this well. I'm wondering if anyone knows of an instructor who has devised such a set of examples (perhaps 100 or so). I'm a firm believer in practice, practice, but the fact is you need feedback, feedback as well. It's all very well for me to make selections from books on my shelf, but to have someone explain why something should be a heading or not would be the valuable part of all this. I'd certainly be willing to pay an appropriate fee for such a set of lessons and the feedback that accompanies them. I'd love to hear what others think of this method. Thanks. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:41:16 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Accuracy >From Christine Headley Richard Evans wrote: > >This is not a personal attack on the people who posted those messages. It's > >just that I thought one of the basic requirements for indexing was accuracy > >and attention to detail. > > And the ability to distinguish when such accuracy is and is not required. > E-mail and newsgroup postings are generally held to a lower standard than > published works done for hire. > > Dick > Dick Evans > infodex@mindspring.com On the other hand, the preponderance of the misspellings on Index-L is such that, if required to spell Nancy's name at short notice, I would now put an 'e' in. I had to look very hard at Alan Walker's post to work out what he was on about. -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:39:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: program Y2K capability Michael Brackney wrote: > >Craig Brown spoke of program Y2K capability: I presume all the leading >Windows programs are Y2K capable, but what about Windows 3.1 programs, and >old DOS standbys like WordPerfect 5.1? Anybody know how to find out about >them? And for that matter, what about all our indexing programs? > Your presumption would not be correct. There is no way to know whether a program is Y2K compliant without (1) getting information from the vendor, if they are still around and answering mail; (2) reading reports of tests done by others that you trust; or (3) testing them yourself, which involves more than it would seem on the surface. Changing your computer's date to see whether the hardware or operating system crashes is easy, but checking out what applications do with such dates is hard. It is my understanding that the Office 98 series from Microsoft is Y2K compliant, but the "95" and previous versions of Word and Excel are not. Check with Microsoft for the latest information. The date the program was written or released is not a good guide. It is quite possible to write a brand-new program in 1998 or 1999 which will not properly handle the year 2000. It would be stupidly short-sighted and irresponsible, of course, but programmers do occasionally fall prey to these weaknesses. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter American Society of Indexers *What's indexing? ---> http://asindexing.org/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: women's names At 03:19 PM 7/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >Now, here's an indexing question from your unsually-lurking moderator: > >I am dusting off my indexing skills for a sabbatical project. The project >involves creating an index to an extensive collection of letters dating >from about 1820 to 1931. My first question is (and there are sure to be >more!): What is the prefered way to index women's names? Maiden name >with cross reference from the married name or visa-versa? > >Meeks, Sarah Tyner >Tyner, Sarah Meeks > See Meeks, Sarah Tyner > >I prefer not to double-post. > > >TIA > >Charlotte Skuster Hello, I'm cruising through a ref. book titled "Women in Particular: an Index to American Women" (Oryx Press, 1984) to see how they handled this problem. In the preface matter they explain the elements in each entry. Under the section titled "Names" (page xiv) they say: "As the reader will soon discover, the name of a woman often consists of several names... The primary name appears first and may be followed by a nickname in quotation marks; it may also be followed by maiden or previous married names in parentheses. A stage name or pseudonym--often identical to the married or maiden name--comes after a semicolon. If a nickname replaced a given name, it is placed directly before the semicolon; otherwise it stands before the maiden name. "At times a rarely used given name is included. These names appear in brackets; for example: Roosevelt, [Anna] Eleanor." The only time they seem to double post is when the woman was known under both her maiden and married names: van Voorhees, Mary Ashley. See Townsend, Mary Ashley (van Voorhees). HTH, Anne Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Accuracy In-Reply-To: <199807091431.KAA16808@camel5.mindspring.com> At 04:09 AM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >I agree with Alan and Elinor. Someone else claimed that one needn't take = >as >much care in email messages as one does in a professional context, but I >think this is valid only up to a point. When it comes to factual >information, it is important to get things right. If a reference to a boo= >k >and/or author is given which someone else might want to make use of, it >needs to be accurate - quite apart from the fact that it is a basic >courtesy to a colleague to spell his or her name correctly. Consider this scenario: You are an established and busy indexer. You are up to your butt in alligators, but someone asks a question you feel you can answer, so you take a few minutes to compose a message to the list. Being an ardent supporter of up-and-coming new indexers, you have loaned your copy of "Indexing Books" to a newcomer, so you can't easily look up the spelling of the author's name. You go ahead and post a cogent, articulate post with the name unfortunately misspelled. You get nit picked for the error. How likely are you to take the time to reply to the next post that comes along? How about basic courtesy to the person who posted the error? Dick Dick Evans infodex@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:12:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Michaud Subject: Glossary/Index? Has anyone here ever seen a combined glossary/index? I have just lined up my very first professional index job (hooray!) and it looks pretty straightforward except that they want me to combine the glossary definitions with the index. They sent me a sample, which looks like this: Glossary/Index Note: Boldface entries are definitions. A Abductors (ab-DUK-tohrs) separate the fingers, 74 Acetone, 52 Adductors (a-DUK-tohrs) draw the fingers together, 74 Adhesion chemicals, 53-55 ...and so forth. I don't have to write the glossary - they are providing the terms and definitions, I just have to include those terms in the index with the definition plus the appropriate locator(s). There aren't that many terms in the glossary, so I don't think it will add too much work. (I hope...) But I've never HEARD of such a thing! Has anyone else seen this? Is it common? Are there any special tricks that I should be aware of? Thanks! Christine Michaud Michaud Editorial Services cmichaud@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:50:59 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Y2K: Hype or Reality? Hi, all - Somebody named Josh wrote: >>It's hype. Sure, there will be some problems, but the world won't end. Besides, there is not much you can do about it anyway. I'm sure the new years day in 2000 we'll read in the paper about a few big systems that did strange things, but I doubt that it will affect our lives much at all. Where did you get this stuff? Are these indexer people?<< And then Martha answered: >>Sylvia - that was WONDERFUL! Tell Josh he is a breath of fresh air! We all needed a good laugh at ourselves and he gave us that opportunity! Thank goodness for common sense.<< Ok. Here's my brief comment: Y2K is not hype. Josh's comment, in my opinion, is totally irresponsible. It was not a breath of fresh air or common sense. It was childish hubris and denial. The implications of the Y2K problem are profound, and we really don't know the boundaries of the disaster (yes, I DO mean disaster). Yourdon is correct. Josh (whoever he is) is dangerously incorrect. Y2K is a global problem of unprecedented dimensions. Nobody (read: NOBODY) really knows the extent of it. But let me point out that there is a Congressional Committee on Y2K, so evidently the Congress takes it seriously (there is a Y2K Committee Website you can visit, BTW). If you believe, as many do, that Congress takes no action that is not either self-serving or in the best interests of large contributors, you may infer that there must be some substantive reason for it to establish and fund this Committee. The issue is not whether this company or that bank is Y2K compliant. That simply is not the basic problem. On a societal level (as opposed to one's desktop PC) the problem is threefold: First: individual organizational compliance. Second: interconnectedness between national/international entities. Third: non-compliant imbedded microcode and microchips (by the millions) in systems throughout the U.S. and the developed nations. Our technological house of cards has been built pretty high in the last couple of decades, and it is the pervasive and unpredictable interconnectedness that is at the heart of this very serious and intractable problem. There is a book on software quality by Capers Jones (Thomson Computer Press, 1997) and he devotes a very disturbing chapter to this problem. If you doubt the pervasive and frightening implications of Y2K, consider this: The strike of just one GM plant in Flint has shut down the entire GM complex. Now replicate that problem worldwide, as manufacturers can't get parts and material because computer glitches have disrupted the flow of national and international commerce. I expect that hundreds of thousands of people will be out of work as factories all over the country (and the world) shut down. Food and fuel deliveries will be interrupted, banks will be unable to communicate with other banks, ATM machines will shut down, paycheck-writing programs will fail (although Social Security is pretty good as far as Y2K compliance is concerned), healthcare records probably will be fouled up and/or inaccessible, the stock market will take a severe hit (as will all your mutual-fund nest eggs), and the worst part about this terrible scenario is that nobody (and that really means NOBODY) will be able to tell how long it will last or who will be affected. The ripple effect will be enormous. And all of this will hit in the dead of winter 1999-2000, As people ask how the hell this could have happened, all the sanctimonious TV-network talking heads will answer, correctly: "It all could have been avoided thirty years ago had anybody had the integrity to fix it" And then I am not certain how patient people will be. There will be anger and fear (a terribly volatile combination) and people might will strike out. Put yourself in the place of all those people who are cold, hungry, out of work, unable to access their cash or their healthcare records, and unsure if their savings are intact. They might get pretty angry at.... well... somebody... anybody.... One real possibility (dear Josh, grow up!) that the Pentagon is taking quite seriously is that Russian radar screens and defense computer systems might go belly-up and blank when hit by Y2K, and that some paranoid, trigger-happy local Russian commander might decide that the Captalists are launching a strike. And he just might push the wrong button. Not a joke. The only people who will not notice Y2K are likely to be Australian aborigines and a few remaining tribes in the South American rainforest. It probably will start in the last quarter of 1999, because many computer programs have 30-, 60-, and 90-day look-aheads. It could be a very difficult time. Now, please tell that puppy Josh that indexers are people, and that this indexer also is an Electrical Engineer who really does understand the implications of Y2K. BTW, the June issue of IEEE Spectrum has several compelling articles on Y2K that are worth reading. But cheer up, by this time next year you won't be able to pick up a newspaper or magazine without being confronted with banner headlines about Y2K. You won't have to look for it, it will come to you. BTW, if you prefer to worry about a somewhat more bounded problem, consider this: Most of the financial programs that use the Dow (DJ Index) have a four- digit field for it. Nobody expected that the Dow would go over 9999! So, if this bull market run-up continues, and if the Dow hits 10,000, many of these programs will throw up! Much easier to fix, of course, but still a cautionary tale about how much we trust some programmer's conception of reality.... Best wishes to us all. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:59:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Cain Subject: Re: Accuracy Hi all, I have noticed many grammatical errors these days on public signs, notices, flyers, etc. (This is one reason I thought I would be good at indexing, a grammatically exacting profession.) And although I often hesistate to correct people who make errors for fear of coming across as critical, I am always grateful to people who point out MY errors and regard them as helpful. Correcting each other on the list seems to me, then, a question of attitude which is hard to convey over a computer screen, emoticons notwithstanding! Jennifer M. Cain ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:00:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Glossary/Index? - Reply Christine Michaud writes: "Has anyone here ever seen a combined glossary/index? ...they want me to combine the glossary definitions with the index...Are there any special tricks that I should be aware of?" Christine, Many encyclopedia indexes use identifiers attached to index terms. Check out Grolier's *New Book of Knowledge* index (the project on which I work most of the time). Most of the headings are defined; personal names are identified by nationality and occupation--"Aalto, Alvar Henrik (Finnish architect and designer)"--some have full definitions--"Abrasives (materials used for grinding and polishing)"--and some simply give an idea of the field in which the term is used--"Aberrations (of lenses)." The indexer does create these identifiers while creating the terms, usually following the wording in the article being indexed. In this case, these aren't terms picked up from a glossary; they're just "normal" index terms. *World Book* uses a form like this, while others use shorter ones chosen from a list of abbreviations; this is how the *Encyclopaedia Britannica* and Grolier's *Encyclopedia Americana* do it. We use Cindex, and found that enclosing the identifiers in parentheses made for easier sorting. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:12:24 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Glossary/Index? Oh, boy! Something I can answer! We're getting ready to do a rock retaining wall which I'd like to cover with plants, and among the gazillions of rock garden books I've appropriated from the local libraray is _Rock Garden Plants_, an "Eywitness Garden Handbook". It's basically a catalog of appropriate plants, and the index includes descriptions of the plants: Acantholimon Fully hardy, evergreen perennials grown for their flowers and tight cushions of spiny leaves. glumaceum 114 .... Aster Fully to half-hardy annuals and perennials and sub-shrubs, with daisy-like flower heads borne in summer and autumn. alpinus 126 .... Codonopsis Fully to frost-hardy perennials and mostly herbaceous, twining climers, grown for their bell- or saucer-shaped flowers borne in summer. clematidea 52 vinciflora 50 So it's not an entirely-unheard-of idea. In this case, I'm not sure I like it, though. I think the information ends up being scattered; the description of Codnopsis vinciflora on p. 50, for instance, only includes the USDA zone rating, so the only place that "fully to frost-hardy" appears is in the index -- and that zone system is not particularly useful for this area of the New Mexico mountains, even if I could remember what zone we're supposed to be in. There is also a glossary of gardening terms, with no index entries. Congrats on your first job! Caroline ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com From: Christine Michaud Subject: Glossary/Index? >Has anyone here ever seen a combined glossary/index? I have just lined up >my very first professional index job (hooray!) and it looks pretty >straightforward except that they want me to combine the glossary >definitions with the index. They sent me a sample, which looks like this: > >Glossary/Index > >Note: Boldface entries are definitions. > >A > >Abductors (ab-DUK-tohrs) separate the fingers, 74 >Acetone, 52 >Adductors (a-DUK-tohrs) draw the fingers together, 74 >Adhesion chemicals, 53-55 > >...and so forth. > >I don't have to write the glossary - they are providing the terms and >definitions, I just have to include those terms in the index with the >definition plus the appropriate locator(s). There aren't that many terms in >the glossary, so I don't think it will add too much work. (I hope...) > >But I've never HEARD of such a thing! Has anyone else seen this? Is it >common? Are there any special tricks that I should be aware of? > >Thanks! > >Christine Michaud >Michaud Editorial Services >cmichaud@erols.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:31:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Babbitt Subject: Re: Accuracy Richard Evans wrote: > > At 04:09 AM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I agree with Alan and Elinor. Someone else claimed that one needn't take = > >as > >much care in email messages as one does in a professional context, but I > >think this is valid only up to a point. When it comes to factual > >information, it is important to get things right. If a reference to a boo= > >k > >and/or author is given which someone else might want to make use of, it > >needs to be accurate - quite apart from the fact that it is a basic > >courtesy to a colleague to spell his or her name correctly. > > Consider this scenario: > > You are an established and busy indexer. You are up to your butt in > alligators, but someone asks a question you feel you can answer, so you > take a few minutes to compose a message to the list. Being an ardent > supporter of up-and-coming new indexers, you have loaned your copy of > "Indexing Books" to a newcomer, so you can't easily look up the spelling of > the author's name. You go ahead and post a cogent, articulate post with > the name unfortunately misspelled. You get nit picked for the error. > > How likely are you to take the time to reply to the next post that comes > along? How about basic courtesy to the person who posted the error? > > Dick > Dick Evans > infodex@mindspring.comI must say that I agree with Dick. I am a copyeditor and sometime indexer, so of course I've noticed the errors. But it seems to me that the essence of the Internet is quick communication. Geez Louise, my *editors* make mistakes when they write to me via e-mail! We're all very busy people, and we're all fallible. E-mail copy is not the same thing as a page proof. What is more important to me is that a network of people is providing support for each other and sharing information with each other. Kathy Babbitt, now delurked kbab@northnet.org Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: April Dunne Subject: Re: Glossary/Index? I come from a scientific profession and have only just begun indexing, but I can not remember ever searching in an index for a glossary term and vise versa. The only time I can remember seeing something like your below example is when there was a word used that could mean two different things and would be in different context which in physiology and forestry hardly happens. I know as a researcher and student that the below example would add confusion and time for me. In my opinion, an index should be as clean as possible. Clutter frustrates the user. The eye is looking for a specific topic and anything out of the ordinary is going to jerk the eye out of the search - not a very friendly way to treat a reader. While in encyclopedias, it may be as Pauline stated; it seems to me that books regarding specific subjects have a precedence of format. If you need to know a definition, you look in the glossary. If you need more information on a subject, you go to the index. People are trained to this format and it works very well. While I don't like this combining of index and glossary, I could see how adding index information to a glossary could be very useful. April Dunne Conseco Marketing Education april_dunne@conseco.com -----Original Message----- From: Christine Michaud [mailto:cmichaud@EROLS.COM] Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 10:13 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Glossary/Index? Has anyone here ever seen a combined glossary/index? I have just lined up my very first professional index job (hooray!) and it looks pretty straightforward except that they want me to combine the glossary definitions with the index. They sent me a sample, which looks like this: Glossary/Index Note: Boldface entries are definitions. A Abductors (ab-DUK-tohrs) separate the fingers, 74 Acetone, 52 Adductors (a-DUK-tohrs) draw the fingers together, 74 Adhesion chemicals, 53-55 ...and so forth. I don't have to write the glossary - they are providing the terms and definitions, I just have to include those terms in the index with the definition plus the appropriate locator(s). There aren't that many terms in the glossary, so I don't think it will add too much work. (I hope...) But I've never HEARD of such a thing! Has anyone else seen this? Is it common? Are there any special tricks that I should be aware of? Thanks! Christine Michaud Michaud Editorial Services cmichaud@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:57:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Glossary/Index? In-Reply-To: <199807091521.LAA19415@camel23.mindspring.com> I had one client suggest combining the glossary with the index, but they couldn't come up with a satisfactory design scheme for it that everyone liked, and so abandoned it. One school of thought was two different inks, and having the index be in one column on the page, and any glossay entries in the companion column. It would have made the index VERY long... Jan Wright At 11:12 AM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >Has anyone here ever seen a combined glossary/index? I have just lined up >my very first professional index job (hooray!) and it looks pretty >straightforward except that they want me to combine the glossary >definitions with the index. They sent me a sample, which looks like this: > >Glossary/Index > >Note: Boldface entries are definitions. > >A > >Abductors (ab-DUK-tohrs) separate the fingers, 74 >Acetone, 52 >Adductors (a-DUK-tohrs) draw the fingers together, 74 >Adhesion chemicals, 53-55 > >...and so forth. > >I don't have to write the glossary - they are providing the terms and >definitions, I just have to include those terms in the index with the >definition plus the appropriate locator(s). There aren't that many terms in >the glossary, so I don't think it will add too much work. (I hope...) > >But I've never HEARD of such a thing! Has anyone else seen this? Is it >common? Are there any special tricks that I should be aware of? > >Thanks! > >Christine Michaud >Michaud Editorial Services >cmichaud@erols.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:30:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: clarity of subentries; headnote Subentry question: In my quest for perfect clarity, I often wonder whether cross-refs. are clear or leave readers scratching their heads. In the following example, it seems to me that choice 1 is a bit cryptic, given that the entry "massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane" doesn't mention Das Reich. (I don't want to get into the reasons for that or why I'm listing the massacre under "massacre" instead of "Oradour." And, yes, I have a cross-ref. from "SS" to "Das Reich.") Does choice 1 mean that Das Reich carried out the massacre or just that the massacre is somehow or other related? OTOH, choice 2 makes the relationship clear. In general, I prefer type-1 cross-refs., but I'm beginning to see occasions when type-2 cross-refs. are more helpful. And in case you're wondering *why* I prefer type-1, I think they're easier to spot visually, especially when the format is run-in rather than indented. 1. Das Reich makeup of mobilized to attack maquis See also massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane 2. Das Reich makeup of mobilized to attack maquis Oradour massacre by (see massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane) Comments? Do any of you have some other interesting examples to share? Headnote question: I have a question about clarity of headnotes,too, which I hope y'all can help with or reassure me about. My clients (mostly academic presses) want me to ignore initials articles in sorting, regardless of what language they're in. In this book, then, I'll typically ignore "le," "les," "la," "der," "die," und (I mean *and*) "das." But sometimes the article is really an inseparable part of a proper name, as in Das Reich (a subunit of the SS, not to be confused with the Third Reich). So I'm thinking of this kind of headnote: "French and German articles have been ignored in alphabetizing except when they are an inseparable part of a proper name. For example, _Le Franc-Tireur_ appears in the Fs, but Das Reich appears in the Ds." I know that still leaves some readers not knowing where to look first, but it at least cues people not to look up, e.g., French publications under L. BTW, I must confess that the author has listed them in the Ls in the bibliography, but I resist doing that in the index, because I find it so unhelpful to the reader. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:22:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: program Y2K capability The utility, "Check 2000", is supposed to be able to check your installed programs for Y2K compliance. I have run the demo version on my large system and it reported 11 programs non-compliant and 6 programs requiring updates. Unfortunately, the details of the test -- manufacturer, program name, etc. -- are not displayed in the demo version: one must shell out $75 for the full version. "Check 2000" is made by Greenwich Mean Time and the price seems a bit excessive, as I have seen another utility for $45 purporting to do the same tests. Since I have only just opened Pandora's Box I am not yet fully informed; will report further discoveries. Dave Talcott aka Chicken Little 75711.1537@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:53:40 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Y2K: Hype or Reality? OK. Once again, Josh's message was meant for me alone. He is not a list member and was responding to the original Armageddon message I forwarded to him. Josh's message was mistakenly sent back to the list instead of to me (we've all hit the wrong key at some point). His query about "indexing people" was not meant to be insulting, but was a genuine inquiry about the origin of the message. Josh is a UC Berkeley educated computer scientist currently engaged in doing research at the Microsoft Bay Area Research Center in San Francisco. Those familiar with the area of computer research will know what kind of qualifications and expertise that position requires. Yes, he is young, but the last time I checked he was certainly not a "puppy." And, he is mature enough to disagree with a position without having to flame someone. Bob, and everyone else, is certainly entitled to their opinions regarding any upcoming computer disasters, religious and/or political beliefs, indexing techniques, or whatever. However, it is always refreshing to hear those opinions given without personal or deliberately insulting remarks made. The last couple of days there have been several messages on the Y2K issue, on both sides of the debate, which have been thoughtful, insightful, and sometimes delightfully humorous. My opinion is that only the naive would believe that we won't have some Y2K problems but as to Armageddon? I think that the Y2K menace will probably go the way of the Michelangelo virus (remember the doom and gloom predictions on that one?). I have two other sons who are electrical engineers, also from UC Berkeley, and they're not quite ready to move into a survivalist compound yet either. My fourth son, the one who hates math as much as his mother, will be an attorney in another year and has no opinion on the Y2K issue :). Josh is way past having to have his mother defend him--but old Mama Bear habits are hard to break. And since I'd like all of my sons to continue having a high opinion of indexers, as mature and professional individuals, I won't be forwarding this message to any of them. Best, Sylvia Coates ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote: > Hi, all - > > Somebody named Josh wrote: > >>It's hype. Sure, there will be some problems, but the world won't end. > Besides, there is not much you can do about it anyway. I'm sure the new > years day in 2000 we'll read in the paper about a few big systems that did > strange things, but I doubt that it will affect our lives much at all. > Where did you get this stuff? Are these indexer people?<< > > And then Martha answered: > > >>Sylvia - that was WONDERFUL! Tell Josh he is a breath of fresh air! We > all needed a good laugh at ourselves and he gave us that opportunity! > Thank goodness for common sense.<< > > Ok. Here's my brief comment: > > Y2K is not hype. Josh's comment, in my opinion, is totally irresponsible. It > was not a breath of fresh air or common sense. It was childish hubris and > denial. The implications of the Y2K problem are profound, and we really don't > know the boundaries of the disaster (yes, I DO mean disaster). > > Yourdon is correct. Josh (whoever he is) is dangerously incorrect. Y2K is a > global problem of unprecedented dimensions. Nobody (read: NOBODY) really > knows the extent of it. But let me point out that there is a Congressional > Committee on Y2K, so evidently the Congress takes it seriously (there is a Y2K > Committee Website you can visit, BTW). If you believe, as many do, that > Congress takes no action that is not either self-serving or in the best > interests of large contributors, you may infer that there must be some > substantive reason for it to establish and fund this Committee. > > The issue is not whether this company or that bank is Y2K compliant. That > simply is not the basic problem. On a societal level (as opposed to one's > desktop PC) the problem is threefold: First: individual organizational > compliance. Second: interconnectedness between national/international > entities. Third: non-compliant imbedded microcode and microchips (by the > millions) in systems throughout the U.S. and the developed nations. Our > technological house of cards has been built pretty high in the last couple of > decades, and it is the pervasive and unpredictable interconnectedness that is > at the heart of this very serious and intractable problem. > > There is a book on software quality by Capers Jones (Thomson Computer Press, > 1997) and he devotes a very disturbing chapter to this problem. If you doubt > the pervasive and frightening implications of Y2K, consider this: The strike > of just one GM plant in Flint has shut down the entire GM complex. Now > replicate that problem worldwide, as manufacturers can't get parts and > material because computer glitches have disrupted the flow of national and > international commerce. > > I expect that hundreds of thousands of people will be out of work as factories > all over the country (and the world) shut down. Food and fuel deliveries will > be interrupted, banks will be unable to communicate with other banks, ATM > machines will shut down, paycheck-writing programs will fail (although Social > Security is pretty good as far as Y2K compliance is concerned), healthcare > records probably will be fouled up and/or inaccessible, the stock market will > take a severe hit (as will all your mutual-fund nest eggs), and the worst part > about this terrible scenario is that nobody (and that really means NOBODY) > will be able to tell how long it will last or who will be affected. The > ripple effect will be enormous. > > And all of this will hit in the dead of winter 1999-2000, As people ask how > the hell this could have happened, all the sanctimonious TV-network talking > heads will answer, correctly: "It all could have been avoided thirty years ago > had anybody had the integrity to fix it" And then I am not certain how > patient people will be. There will be anger and fear (a terribly volatile > combination) and people might will strike out. Put yourself in the place of > all those people who are cold, hungry, out of work, unable to access their > cash or their healthcare records, and unsure if their savings are intact. > They might get pretty angry at.... well... somebody... anybody.... > > One real possibility (dear Josh, grow up!) that the Pentagon is taking quite > seriously is that Russian radar screens and defense computer systems might go > belly-up and blank when hit by Y2K, and that some paranoid, trigger-happy > local Russian commander might decide that the Captalists are launching a > strike. And he just might push the wrong button. Not a joke. > > The only people who will not notice Y2K are likely to be Australian aborigines > and a few remaining tribes in the South American rainforest. > > It probably will start in the last quarter of 1999, because many computer > programs have 30-, 60-, and 90-day look-aheads. It could be a very difficult > time. > > Now, please tell that puppy Josh that indexers are people, and that this > indexer also is an Electrical Engineer who really does understand the > implications of Y2K. BTW, the June issue of IEEE Spectrum has several > compelling articles on Y2K that are worth reading. But cheer up, by this time > next year you won't be able to pick up a newspaper or magazine without being > confronted with banner headlines about Y2K. You won't have to look for it, it > will come to you. > > BTW, if you prefer to worry about a somewhat more bounded problem, consider > this: Most of the financial programs that use the Dow (DJ Index) have a four- > digit field for it. Nobody expected that the Dow would go over 9999! So, if > this bull market run-up continues, and if the Dow hits 10,000, many of these > programs will throw up! Much easier to fix, of course, but still a > cautionary tale about how much we trust some programmer's conception of > reality.... > > Best wishes to us all. > > Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:00:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Hudson Subject: USDA course As someone who is involved in training in indexing here in the UK, I woul= d like to find out more about the USDA course which so many of you have bee= n discussing. Could someone please tell me where I could find information?= = I have tried the ASI website but there's nothing there. = A reply direct to me (AnnHudson@compuserve.com) would probably be best as= I expect most of you know all about it already. Many thanks in anticipation... = ANN HUDSON ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:15:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: delurking In-Reply-To: <199807091638.JAA12177@decibel.electriciti.com> Thanks, Kathy! I agree with you, entirely. At 12:31 PM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: But it seems to me that >the essence of the Internet is quick communication. Geez Louise, my >*editors* make mistakes when they write to me via e-mail! We're all >very busy people, and we're all fallible. E-mail copy is not the same >thing as a page proof. What is more important to me is that a network >of people is providing support for each other and sharing information >with each other. > >Kathy Babbitt, now delurked >kbab@northnet.org >Canton, NY > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:33:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: clarity of subentries; headnote On 7/9/98 12:30 Carol Roberts wrote (in part): >I have a question about clarity of headnotes,too, which I hope y'all can >help with or reassure me about. My clients (mostly academic presses) want >me to ignore initials articles in sorting, regardless of what language >they're in. In this book, then, I'll typically ignore "le," "les," "la," >"der," "die," und (I mean *and*) "das." But sometimes the article is really >an inseparable part of a proper name, as in Das Reich (a subunit of the SS, >not to be confused with the Third Reich). So I'm thinking of this kind of >headnote: "French and German articles have been ignored in alphabetizing >except when they are an inseparable part of a proper name. For example, _Le >Franc-Tireur_ appears in the Fs, but Das Reich appears in the Ds." I know >that still leaves some readers not knowing where to look first, but it at >least cues people not to look up, e.g., French publications under L. BTW, I >must confess that the author has listed them in the Ls in the bibliography, >but I resist doing that in the index, because I find it so unhelpful to the >reader. I decide on a case-by-case basis. I'm just wrapping up a book in which "le Morte Homme" appears under M, and "Les Rues Vertes" appears under R. However, "La Courtine, France" is under the L. This is along the same line as a thread a short while back in which most of us agreed we wouldn't look for Los Angeles under A. So, I think you're logic above is fine. HTH, Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:46:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: Glossary/Index? > Has anyone here ever seen a combined glossary/index? I have just lined up > my very first professional index job (hooray!) and it looks pretty > straightforward except that they want me to combine the glossary > definitions with the index. I've never done one, but the _Compton's Encyclopedia_ I used as a child had a "fact index" which combined a one or two sentence indentification of a term with the page references. It was very handy if you were just checking somebody's dates. If they are supplying the definitions (and the extra pages such an index will require), it doesn't sound like much of a problem. Just be sure to allow for and charge for the extra work of typing in all those definitions. Janet Russell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:25:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: accuracy Dear Alan, You can congratulate me. I spelled it right. Hee hee hee, yourself. :-) Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:29:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: USDA course In-Reply-To: <199807091802.OAA01456@camel5.mindspring.com> Try http://grad.usda.gov/corres/corpro.html for the USDA courses. Jan Wright At 02:00 PM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >As someone who is involved in training in indexing here in the UK, I woul= >d >like to find out more about the USDA course which so many of you have bee= >n >discussing. Could someone please tell me where I could find information?= > = > >I have tried the ASI website but there's nothing there. = > >A reply direct to me (AnnHudson@compuserve.com) would probably be best as= > I >expect most of you know all about it already. >Many thanks in anticipation... = > > >ANN HUDSON > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:45:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: To Students of USDA Hi, Carol, Students who index or an index of students? :-). I have no self control. Personally I think this is a good idea. I wish I could add my name but being in the process of buying a house I can't afford the course right now. Hopefully after the first of the year. However, if you are able to organize this and the group becomes self-sustaining, perhaps I can participate then. Good luck to you. Toni Williams Keep passing the open windows. --J. Irving > -----Original Message----- > From: Carol Deason [SMTP:Darwini@AOL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 2:32 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: To Students of USDA > > I'm just starting the USDA course today and was wondering if anyone > would like > to start an e-mailing list of indexing students----just to discuss the > course > and perhaps be of help to one another. If you think this is a good > idea you > can e-mail me personally at "Darwini@aol.com" and I will add you to > the list > and send the list to one another. > Carol ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:46:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Glossary/Index? << Glossary/Index Note: Boldface entries are definitions. A Abductors (ab-DUK-tohrs) separate the fingers, 74 Acetone, 52 Adductors (a-DUK-tohrs) draw the fingers together, 74 Adhesion chemicals, 53-55 >> I hate this! I think I've only been asked to do it once. It doesn't really harm the index, just makes it look messy. Try to get the glossary file on disk and read it into your indexing software; otherwise charge them extra, because it adds up to a lot of rote typing. Have fun! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:13:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Manley Subject: Re: Accuracy In a message dated 98-07-08 17:31:32 EDT, you write: << This is not a personal attack on the people who posted those messages. It's just that I thought one of the basic requirements for indexing was accuracy and attention to detail. >> Oh!! So is this what indexing is, posting entries on Index-L? Sorry if this is a "dumb" question, but I am a newby...:) Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:42:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: To Students of USDA Apologies to the list. I meant my response to go directly to Carol. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Toni Williams TPG/SG [SMTP:towilliams@PROCYONGROUP.COM] > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 8:46 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: To Students of USDA > > Hi, Carol, > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: horne@fwb.gulf.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Horne Subject: Re: USDA course Ann Hudson wrote: > > As someone who is involved in training in indexing here in the UK, I woul= > d > like to find out more about the USDA course which so many of you have bee= > n > discussing. Could someone please tell me where I could find information?= > = > > I have tried the ASI website but there's nothing there. = > > A reply direct to me (AnnHudson@compuserve.com) would probably be best as= > I > expect most of you know all about it already. > Many thanks in anticipation... = > > ANN HUDSON Bob Horne >horne@fwb.gulf.net The course is one of the correspondence courses of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Graduate School, USDA Stop 9911 1400 Independence Avenue SW Washington, DC 20250-9911 USA Internet: correspond@grad.usda.gov Telephone: (202) 720-7123 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:20:21 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Web indexing course at University of New South Wales, Sydney? Anyone willing to say how they liked it? I have heard it is booked out. Curious to see why Australians prefer face to face over computer mediated instruction like my course. Please cc me. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:36:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: program Y2K capability At 09:39 AM 7/9/98 -0500, Larry Harrison wrote: >Michael Brackney wrote: > >> >>Craig Brown spoke of program Y2K capability: I presume all the leading >>Windows programs are Y2K capable, but what about Windows 3.1 programs, and >>old DOS standbys like WordPerfect 5.1? Anybody know how to find out about >>them? And for that matter, what about all our indexing programs? >> > >Your presumption would not be correct. There is no way to know whether a >program is Y2K compliant without (1) getting information from the vendor, >if they are still around and answering mail; (2) reading reports of tests >done by others that you trust; or (3) testing them yourself, which involves >more than it would seem on the surface. Changing your computer's date to >see whether the hardware or operating system crashes is easy, but checking >out what applications do with such dates is hard. > >It is my understanding that the Office 98 series from Microsoft is Y2K >compliant, but the "95" and previous versions of Word and Excel are not. >Check with Microsoft for the latest information. > >The date the program was written or released is not a good guide. It is >quite possible to write a brand-new program in 1998 or 1999 which will not >properly handle the year 2000. It would be stupidly short-sighted and >irresponsible, of course, but programmers do occasionally fall prey to >these weaknesses. Thanks much, Larry, for your reply. Is it probably true, then, that WordPerfect 5.1 as an old DOS program will not be Y2K capable? What a disaster (or at least how unfortunate) that would be for me! If you're not sure, do you have any idea whom I could contact to find out? Michael At 01:22 PM 7/9/98 -0400, Dafydd Llwyd Talcott wrote: >The utility, "Check 2000", is supposed to be able to check your >installed programs for Y2K compliance. I have run the demo version >on my large system and it reported 11 programs non-compliant and >6 programs requiring updates. Unfortunately, the details of the >test -- manufacturer, program name, etc. -- are not displayed in >the demo version: one must shell out $75 for the full version. >"Check 2000" is made by Greenwich Mean Time and the price seems >a bit excessive, as I have seen another utility for $45 purporting >to do the same tests. > >Since I have only just opened Pandora's Box I am not yet fully >informed; will report further discoveries. > >Dave Talcott >aka Chicken Little Thanks to you too, Dave, for your information on "Check 2000". Hopefully one of us will find out about WordPerfect 5.1 and save everyone else interested $75. Pluck pluck pluck PLUCK pluck! Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:36:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: _See_s off subs vs. _See also_s At 12:30 PM 7/9/98 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: >Subentry question: > >In my quest for perfect clarity, I often wonder whether cross-refs. are >clear or leave readers scratching their heads. In the following example, it >seems to me that choice 1 is a bit cryptic, given that the entry "massacre >at Oradour-sur-Glane" doesn't mention Das Reich. (I don't want to get into >the reasons for that or why I'm listing the massacre under "massacre" >instead of "Oradour." And, yes, I have a cross-ref. from "SS" to "Das >Reich.") Does choice 1 mean that Das Reich carried out the massacre or just >that the massacre is somehow or other related? OTOH, choice 2 makes the >relationship clear. In general, I prefer type-1 cross-refs., but I'm >beginning to see occasions when type-2 cross-refs. are more helpful. And in >case you're wondering *why* I prefer type-1, I think they're easier to spot >visually, especially when the format is run-in rather than indented. > >1. Das Reich > makeup of > mobilized to attack maquis > See also massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane > >2. Das Reich > makeup of > mobilized to attack maquis > Oradour massacre by (see massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane) > >Comments? Do any of you have some other interesting examples to share? Carol, I appreciate your sense of clarity on this matter: I too would use a _See_ ref off subheading as you've done in Choice 2 (though I'd probably use ". _See_" without parentheses to make it "easier to spot" for me). A couple of years ago in the midst of indexing a book called _Ethics in Media Communications_ I posted a message about this on Index-l (subsequently I lost the message in a hard disk crash -- if anybody saved it and can access it easily, please send me a copy!). Here's what my big "ethics" block finally came to: ethics, 3, 16=9617 absolutist. _See_ deontological ethics applied ethics, 4=965 branches, 4=965, 17 codes. _See_ codes of ethics communications process, 5=966 consequence based. _See_ teleological ethics definition, 16 deontological. _See_ deontological ethics derivation of term, 2 duty based. _See_ deontological ethics education in. _See_ ethics education egalitarian ethics, 55 ethics imperative, 9=9610, 17 Judeo Christian, 53 Kantian ethics, 53=9654 and law, 30=9634, 47, 83=9684 media. _See_ media ethics metaethics, 4 and moral development, 2=9619 and moral reasoning, 50=9670 vs. morals, 2=963 normative ethics, 4 philosophical foundations, 52=9656 of privacy guidelines, 132=96133 need for, 119=96121 relativist ethics, 55=9656 situation ethics, 56 and society, 20=9649 study of. _See_ study of ethics system of. _See_ system of ethics teaching of, 2, 414 teleological. _See_ teleological ethics utilitarian ethics, 54=9655, 58 virtue ethics, 53, 59=9660, 69 _See also_ ethical issues; ethical judgments; ethical theories; moral conduct; moral reasoning; moral values I used _See_s off subheadings as you did to preserve the links between the subheadings in question and the main heading so that, for example, the reader will find "study of" as a subheading instead of "study of ethics" down with the _See also_ targets. I think this method is especially helpful in long lists of subheadings -- and it has the added advantage of reducing the number of _See also_ targets. (Speaking of clarity, please see my accompanying post, "'subheading' vs. 'subentry'".) Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:36:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: "subheading" vs. "subentry" At 12:30 PM 7/9/98 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: >Subentry question: > >In my quest for perfect clarity . . . Speaking of clarity, here's a point I want to make about indexing terminology: since we use the term "entry" to refer to a heading plus a locator, shouldn't we use the term "subheading" instead of "subentry" to refer to the second level of a heading? Although it has long been used and is still much in vogue, the term "subentry" is essentially a misnomer since nobody uses it to refer to a subheading plus a locator. This has been recognized by the writers of ISO 999, among others, and I think we should follow suit. Ideally speaking, not one more neophyte should have to wonder why some of us say "subheading", others say "subentry", and others say one or the other! Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:39:02 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was woodruff@BISON.DEMON.CO.UK From: Kim Subject: How do I unsubscribe?? In-Reply-To: <900009401.2027660.0@listserv.cuny.edu> Hi, I'm writing on behalf of my mum (Karin) - she's away on holiday at the moment so I have been trying to temporarily unsubscribe from the list, but with no success! I have tried sending a message to saying "set index-l nomail" and then it sends me back an e-mail saying that I *am* unsubscribed, but I'm still getting thousands of e-mails from the list each day! Any advice? Sorry if you're fed up of annoying people pestering you to get them off the list too! Kim Woodruff PS - Karin's subscribed as -- Kim Woodruff e mail: kim@bison.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:43:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Accuracy Dick Evans wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Lists of publishers (was: Re: textbooks) Dick Evans wrote: <> I totally understand Dick's point, but I have sometimes thought that it would be helpful if people could publish a list of major publishers who do NOT use freelance indexers, ever. I realize such info changes all the time, but it would save some of us a lot of postage and keep a lot of junk mail off busy editors' desks, without losing anyone any business. At the least, one might have a category of "Not worth contacting except as a last resort, in case you want them to refer you to their authors," or something like that. But maybe I'm being naive. What with the complicated relationships among presses/publishers these days, it might be misleading to say "Owl Publishers' Group never hires freelancers," when their subsidiary "Fly-by-night Press" hires them all the time. (Apologies if there actually are any such business names, I just made them up.) The Association of American University Presses has links to member presses from its web page, which is at http://aaup.uchicago.edu/aaup_home.html . (If I remember correctly, the list of web pages is a little tricky to find from the home page, so if there is any interest I will try to find a more exact URL.) Some presses have posted their manuscript guidelines for authors, which sometimes indicate their attitude towards freelance copy editors and indexers (e.g., a statement such as "Leave plenty of time to compile the index" is a pretty good clue that they usually make the author do it). Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:02:54 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beverly Schane Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course Hi--my name is Bev. I've been reading index-l and considering learning indexing. I was also going to go the route of USDA course, but I doubt I will now. That kind of service for $286 is disgusting. Are there other courses out there that carry a lot of weight in the indexing world? Also I've been wondering just how difficult it is to get started in indexing and obtaining the first client. Also--how much money does the average indexer earn if he/she is working full time at it (40 hours). Would also appreciate any additional advice. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:12:11 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beverly Schane Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course In a message dated 98-07-07 13:34:15 EDT, you write: << Paid the money, got the stuff, read the books (as Martha says, it did get me to read Mulvaney in more depth) but was too busy being an indexing apprentice and indexing books to actually DO the course. >> What kind of background do you need to be an indexing apprentice? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: "subheading" vs. "subentry" Michael Brackney wrote: > > At 12:30 PM 7/9/98 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: > > >Subentry question: > > > >In my quest for perfect clarity . . . > > Speaking of clarity, here's a point I want to make about indexing > terminology: since we use the term "entry" to refer to a heading plus a > locator, shouldn't we use the term "subheading" instead of "subentry" to > refer to the second level of a heading? Although it has long been used and > is still much in vogue, the term "subentry" is essentially a misnomer since > nobody uses it to refer to a subheading plus a locator. Warning: ignorance alert (*my* ignorance, that is). The last line above confuses me. A subheading plus a locator is exactly what I mean when I say either "subentry" or "subheading." What do other people mean? >This has been > recognized by the writers of ISO 999, among others, and I think we should > follow suit. Could you say more about what the usage is in ISO 999? Yes, I should study it, but I haven't yet. If a prolonged discussion does not seem appropriate at this point, could you point me to an online or hardcopy reference? Thanks. > Ideally speaking, not one more neophyte should have to wonder > why some of us say "subheading", others say "subentry", and others say one > or the other! Do people mean different things when they use these two words? -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:51:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: "subheading" vs. "subentry" In-Reply-To: <199807092241.PAA22904@decibel.electriciti.com> Almost by definition, indexers have very strong inferrential skills. If folks cannot infer that subheading is what most of us would call a subentry, perhaps they should consider other work. I, personally, have never seen any posting that would be confusing. Can't we loosen up a bit? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:08:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Accuracy Christine Shuttleworth wrote: > I am unrepentant. Good. That's your story and you're sticking to it. :-) > I know it is considered courteous > not to correct others' errors in email messages > unless they have specifically asked to be > corrected. Consider this my open and retroactive request for correction. > Having a nitpicking sort of mind, I have > often wanted to do so but refrained, out of a wish > not to upset the other person and draw > attention to the error when it doesn't really matter > that much. Who knows, it could be me next time. Heaven > knows, I don't believe my messages are invariably > models of good grammar, spelling or punctuation. > > But if I'm not sure how to spell a name, I would > say "not sure if this is the right spelling" or some such. Yes, that's a good practice. I made an error in Nancy's name, but was sure I had spelled it right, which is why I did not say that I wasn't sure, because I was sure, though I was wrong. :-) > Hope this doesn't sound too smug. Nope. I will not use an email client without a spell-checker; I am a rotten speller. That does not make me a poor writer or a bad indexer. It does mean, however, that I need to use the appropriate tools to get the job done. I think being a poor speller is a reason to use dictionaries and spell-checkers, and not an excuse to present poorly-spelled work. > But I think bending > over backwards to be polite can sometimes be > counter-productive - this is how errors get perpetuated. I agree. As one of the people who spelled Nancy's name wrong, I have three things to say: 1. I spelled Nancy's name wrong. 2. I did not mind having attention drawn to my error. 3. I doubt that I will ever again forget how to spell Mullvany. 4. Number 3 is a JOKE. So is the fact that I said "three things" and listed four things. Numbers 1 and 2 are not jokes. I'm pointing out these facts because I think things on INDEX-L are getting a little heated again, and humor tends to evaporate--leaving a nasty residue--when held too long over an open flame. This last item is not addressed to--nor is it subtly directed at--any one individual. -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:23:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: Re: BOB vs database indexing personalities (was USDA) In a message dated 98-07-07 16:53:41 EDT, Shelley wrote: > haven't.) Do you find, as an indexer, that one type of > indexing - not subject matter, but actual style, easier? If > you're not allowed subheads, is this an easier BOB index to > build? Is database indexing easier? Is it because of the > controlled vocabulary? Shelly, you are not alone. I have an MLS and have always focused on database indexing and abstracting. I will take on the occasional BOB for variety but I set limits on the length of book I'm willing to tackle. I have found that BOBs require long periods of time without interruption. Having 2 kids and 4 cats, it's sometimes hard for me to get those long periods of time. Database indexing can be done in smaller pieces. I think that both require a personality that is slightly obsessed with information and order. When I'm working on a BOB, I enjoy the freedom to use terms that I decide are appropriate, but somewhere toward the end of the project I wonder what on earth I was thinking when I took it on and can't wait to get back to the precision and logic of database indexing and a controlled thesaurus. When I'm working on a database project where I get to design the database and set the controlled vocabulary, I'm as happy as a clam in a mudbath because it's the best of both worlds. Melanie (who is running on close to empty due to sleep deprivation right now - something that happens no matter what type of project I'm working on) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:40:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Starlings come home to roost? I was gone all day today, and returned to a flock of starling posts on INDEX-L. And if there are indexers who do not know this reference ... 'we can only pity their ignorance and despise them.' Or maybe Bob Richardson can help. Bob? Could you re-post The Post? Thanks. Ann (negligently quoting Hazel Bell quoting Angela Thirkell quoting Fanny Squeers in _Nicholas Nicholby_. See her (Hazel's) fabulous article in The Indexer, Vol. 21, No. 1, April 1998. I love literary characters who quote! Lord Peter and Harriet were always at it, and they are my very favorites of all time.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:17:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: How do I unsubscribe?? At 11:39 PM 7/9/1998 +0100, Kim wrote: >Hi, I'm writing on behalf of my mum (Karin) - she's away on holiday at >the moment so I have been trying to temporarily unsubscribe from the >list, but with no success! I have tried sending a message to > saying "set index-l nomail" and >then it sends me back an e-mail saying that I *am* unsubscribed, but I'm >still getting thousands of e-mails from the list each day! Any advice? Kim, you must unsubscribe using your mother's email address...send the message from her address (using her account, presumably). Otherwise, the records will show you are "unsubscribed" because YOU have never subscribed to the list. Hope this helps. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:10:59 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Josh and a Bit More on Y2K Dear Mama Bear - I really am sorry that my posting was distressing to you. I did not realize that it was your son who was quoted, and I did interpret his question about who indexers are as pejorative. Sorry. Perhaps this will in some slight degree soften your perception of me as unkind and unreasonably hostile to Josh: I reacted (perhaps overreacted) to Martha's cheery acceptance of Josh's comments as a breath of reasonableness and common sense in the Y2K brouhaha. Everything that I have read, everything that I have learned, all my professional experience, suggests to me that Y2K will be a major worldwide problem with profound ramifications for all the industrialized nations. The most expert and technically informed speakers and writers all concur that Y2K is not hype, and that it can, and will, cause serious disruption to our economies, our personal and professional lives, the fabric of our closely-knit society, and possibly to our health and our safety. I am not speaking of a lunatic fringe. I am speaking of the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engioneers), the Congress, and every major financial and government institution of which I am aware. One recent speaker, for example, is chief economist for Deutsche Bank. These are not techie types; these are serious people deeply worried about Y2K. I believe that Josh simply is wrong. Technically wrong. Not partially mistaken, but profoundly mistaken. Thsi is not a matter of personal unkindness, it is a matter of technology. I reacted strongly because I was concerned that Martha's response might be typical of non-technical persons on Index-L who would dismiss Y2K as simply too unpleasant to be real. Now, I realize that you trust Josh's judgment, and that your posting included his comment as a good-faith effort on your part to place this matter in what Josh and you believe is a more realisitic perspective. As you say, everybody is entitled to his/her opinion. But I have a conscience also, and I believe that Josh's advice, and your promulgating it, regardless of the purity of your motivation, is dangerously incorrect and will serve to trivialize a problerm of global proportions. My reference to Josh as a "puppy" doubtless was needlessly harsh, and I apologize for that. But I also must remind you that in invoking his position as a Micorosoft Techie you are giving him a cachet of professional maturity and presenting his opinion as one that we should take seriously. But I believe that his opinion is technically incorrect, and his comment about indexers is insulltingly dismissive and seems to imply "who are these indexers, anyhow [to have any opinion about Y2K]". He is not spreading calming oil on needlessly troubled waters, he is mocking our serious concerns as we head for serious trouble. Now I expect that you are as proud of Josh as I am of my son. But you must at least entertain the possibility that he is wrong, and that being bright and working for Microsoft does not cloak him in a mantle of technical infallibility. In fact, it is precisely his excellent technical qualifications that make his dismissal of Y2K even more inexplicable. Well, you might say, won't you, Bob, admit the possibility that you too might be wrong? Sure. I pray that I am. And that the Congress is wrong. And that Yourdon and Capers Jones and Deutsche Bank and the Pentagon and all government agencies also are wrong. I will celebrate with you and happily eat a large dish of crow if I am wrong. But this is not a matter of personal opinion. It is absolutely not the subject for a flame war. It is a matter of millions and millions of lines of embedded code in legacy software, in computer BIOSs, in microcontrollers, in communications and military satellites (remember the recent satellite failure that wiped out pagers and ATMs?), in GPS systems, in financial and medical records, etc. etc. etc. all over the world. All those programs and chips that use a two-digit date field, and then operate on that data, and feed it to other programs that also operate on that data, and so on, world without end, and many of them throwing up because they can't deal with "00" in the year field. Simple example: You have an imbedded microcontroller chip that contains a maintenance program for an aircraft engine (or a generator or traffic lights or the automatic locks on your building or bank vault, that periodically takes the date of the last maintenance activity (let's say, 10-98) and subtracts it from the current date. When that difference equals 00-01 (one year) the program performs some action such as flashing a "maintenance due" warning, but if the diifference is greater than 00-01 it shuts down the system for overdue maintenance. Let's see how this might work. Next April the system, will subtract "04" (April) from "10" (October) and get "06" And it will subtract "98" (year of last maintenance) from "99" (year of next scheduled maintenance) and get "01" So the system sees "06-01" in April. Similarly, it sees "05-01" in May, "04-01" in June, "03-01" in July, "02-01" in August, "01-01" in September, and (Finally!) "00-01" in October. And it says to itself : "Aha! Time for for next maintenance! Better flash a light (or whatever)". OK. Next October the program will subtract 10-98 from 10-99 and get 00-01 and that is fine. The system is due for routine annual maintenance. No Problemo. And if nobody performs the routine maintenance in October, and the month goes from October (10) to November(11), the program might be written simply to change the flashing red light to a clanging bell, but not shut down the offending system. On the other hand, it might be written to refuse to unlock the vault door, or to freeze the elevators on the lobby level, etc. .It is the Year date, not the month date, that usually is critical. But how does this simple program deal with subtracting "10-99" from "10-00"? It can't subtract year "99" from year "00" as it was originally written. Or it assumes that "00" means "1900", not "2000", and maintenance is 100 years overdue. So the program fails, and God knows what happens because each program and/or imbedded controller chip responds to failure differently. But you can be sure that many systems will fail. Now replicate this kind of thing all over the world. Now expand this Y2K problem to mortgage and interest calculations, international (and intranational) funds transfer, international (and intranational) manufacturing and commerce, medical records, bank records, thousands of state and government agencies, law enforcement, food and fuel transportation, etc., etc. It is unreasonable to assume that every small S&L, every small business, every doctor, every HMO, every local and state agency, every Federal agency, every military system, every other nation in Europe and, especially, in Asia, will/can scrub every line of every program to be certain that no Y2K bombs are hidden in the code. Impossible. THAT is what we are talking about. It is pervasive and intractable. Period. I have not suggested that Y2k requires moving into a survivalist camp (although a few extreme persons have), but it certainly is not a Michaelangelo-type hoax. So, Mama Bear, I apologize again for my remark about Josh being a puppy. UC Berkeley and Microsoft are impressive credentials indeed, and I respect them. But keep in mind, also, that if he/you are going to invoke them, then people will believe you, and there is an accompanying responsibility for him to speak carefully and thoughtfully.. Best wishes to you both, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:41:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eileen Lutzow Subject: Database indexing On Thu, Jul 9, Melanie Edwards said: >I have found that BOBs require long periods of time without interruption. >Having 2 kids and 4 cats, it's sometimes hard for me to get those long >periods of time. Database indexing can be done in smaller pieces. I have been lurking on this list for quit some time and have learned a lot about BOB indexing, though I'm sure there's still more to know. But I have heard very little about database indexing. Can it be done on a freelance basis also? How do you get started in database indexing? Is it more of a steady stream of work with regular deliveries and due dates, or is it as irregular as BOB indexing appears to be? I assume that you are referring to indexing journal articles, or does "database indexing" encompass something else as well? Do you use the same types of software (e.g. Macrex, Cindex, Sky), or something else? Can you point me towards relevant literature or websites? Any information anyone chooses to share would be appreciated. Feel free to contact me off-list, if you prefer. Thanks! Eileen Lutzow Cataloger Charleston County Library Charleston, SC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:33:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debbie Olson Subject: USDA Class Hi all I've been lurking for several months and have learned a great deal from all the listserv discussions as well as the archives. I took the basic indexing course last year and was quite pleased with it. Turn around time for assignments was about six weeks for me, I am in PA and my teacher was on the west coast. I didn't mind as the feedback from my teacher was worth the wait and I eventually developed a rhythm for completing an assignment as I received the previous one. At times I also sent in two of the shorter assignments together. Although it may seem frustrating at times, consider the little annoyances that come along with taking a correspondence class a rite of passage. Although I have not entered the "real world" of indexing yet, I suspect such "annoyances" may parallel what we will experience with a publisher some day. Consider the whole correspondence experience as a way of measuring what we may be capable of handling as future indexers. Debbie Olson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:58:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Lists of publishers Helen Schinske wrote: > I totally understand Dick's point, but I have sometimes thought that it > would be helpful if people could publish a list of major publishers who do > NOT use freelance indexers, ever. Helen (and others), there is no such thing as a publisher that doesn't hire freelancers. Some don't have a need *now*, but it's rare that at one time or another they won't *ever* need one. People get sick. People leave the company. Schedules get too tight. Budget requirements demand unusual behavior. Old employees offer to help. My first indexing client was a publisher who never hired freelancers. I called them, they told me they don't freelance, and we ended up talking on the phone for 30 minutes anyway because I had lots of questions and they seemed willing to answer them. I learned a lot about the publishing process that day, and they gave me a good head start on my indexing career. Eight months later (no exaggeration), they called me to write an index. Having written them off entirely so long ago, I had no clue who they were, and I played dumb (oh, I remember now! :-). They became one of my biggest clients. So I guess I have two points. First, remember that just because companies don't hire freelancers today doesn't mean they won't change their mind someday, or even someday soon. Second, just because they don't hire freelancers doesn't mean they have nothing to offer. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org webmaster, STC Indexing SIG: http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: William Meisheid Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: program Y2K capability >Is it probably true, then, that WordPerfect 5.1 as an old DOS program will not be Y2K capable? What a disaster (or at least how unfortunate) that would be for me! If you're not sure, do you have any idea whom I could contact to find out? Michael, WP 5.1 is not Y2K compliant, but then it may not matter if you are just using it for Word Processing and not using date specific field functions. Running a non compliant program is not going to hurt anything unless you are using the program's date functions to output or update data that is date dependant. Common sense tells you that you don't have to throw out a program that is not compliant if you never use it in a way that impacts date functions. A few thoughts from the Rim... ________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified RoboHELP Training http://www.sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 70713.2225@compuserve.com or wgm@sageline.com Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP training ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:14:46 -0500 Reply-To: rumpergj@jmu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rumper, Gail J" Subject: getting started (kind of long) Hello everyone, I am about to start my very first indexing project and I am in need of advice. I received a copy of the book from the author today. It is a collection of essays and interviews by various authors about contemporary American poets. The Problem: The book will not go through the final editing stage until early September so there are no final page proofs as yet. The copy she gave me is not complete (the final section is forthcoming), it has no page numbers, and it is out of order. What she wants me to do is to use the table of contents to order the pages, number them, and start indexing. She wants to start early since she knows I am learning and she wants me to have plenty of time for selecting headings, etc. so that she can work with me (e.g. check my entries to make sure I have a good understanding of what I'm doing). She also wants me to proofread the text as I go. My questions: Is this a beneficial way to start this process under these circumstances? How should I handle locators once the pagination changes? Or should I leave them out until I have the final proofs and put them in then (this is what she wants me to do)? At this point the only feedback I will have, in terms of what is a "good" index and what is not, will come from the author alone; I have no one else nearby to work with me on this. Is it better to find someone else to get feedback from, or should I go with the attitude that if the author is satisfied then okay? I'm trying not to sound desperate (even though I am) so any advice would be very much appreciated :-) My questions probably betray my ignorance but I don't have much time (I'm meeting with the author at the end of next week to discuss my progress) and, as I said, I'm desperate (is that a gray hair I see!?). Feel free to respond off-list and thank you in advance to anyone who can or is willing to advise me. Gail -- rumpergj@jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:30:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: crib sheets Three reference "sheets" used for Cindex training have been added to the LevTech web site (below) under the Indexing Software & Services page. These are in PDF format which can be viewed or printed. While developed for use during Cindex training, they are applicable to all users of Microsoft Windows. They are: a chart of the special (non-ASCII) characters in normal ANSI fonts and their ALT values; a chart of the greek characters and their names as well as their mapping within the Symbols font; and, a crib sheet of the general control keys available under standard Windows applications. Cheers, Dave Ream Leverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 440-838-1203 E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Mark Twain ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:39:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Accuracy Ann Norcross wrote: < I made an error in Nancy's name, but was sure I had spelled it right, which is why I did not say that I wasn't sure, because I was sure, though I was wrong. :-) As I said... could have happened to anyone. <(snip) I think things on INDEX-L are getting a little heated again, and humor tends to evaporate--leaving a nasty residue--when held too long over an open flame. This last item is not addressed to--nor is it subtly directed at--any one individual. Thanks for your good-humoured response, Ann. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:00:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. Shaw" Subject: Why Copyreading? In-Reply-To: <199807091431.KAA32095@camel9.mindspring.com> Speaking of controlled vocabulary, would one of the librarians on the list please tell me why copyreading is the term of choice for the Library of Congress heading? According to _MW_9, copyreader (1892) is only seven years older than copyeditor (which _MW_9 leaves open). The entry for copyreader is a reference to copyeditor. I don't think I've ever used the word, except when discussing the library catalogue. My (city) library doesn't have cross references from proofreading or copyediting to copyreading. I really miss catalogue cards. I used to type them when I processed books; I know they're a hassle. You have to know exactly what and how to ask a database, but you can wander about in cards and make Grand Discoveries. A database path often leads to a dead end and you require Original Ideas and A New Beginning to find what you need. Deborah Shaw shawd@mindspring.com (Part of my problem is that I know what I know, which is mainly what I learned while working in a medical library. This means that I know Techlib Plus ("don't bother to learn it, we're going to be replacing it soon" [five years pass]) and NML headings, not LC.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:12:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: My USDA experience is improving In my (limited) experience with the USDA courses, e-mail gets a much quicker response than snail mail. When I took Basic Indexing, I registered by mail & waited **weeks** for my course material. This spring, I registered for the Applied Indexing course by e-mail & got my materials much more quickly -- to my alarm, as I was not going to be able to start right away & had expected nothing to come for better than a month! Of course, the difference may have been due to other factors at the school. On the subject of drop-outs, I started off the Basic course with a bang, then *LIFE* got in the way, and I dropped it completely for about 4 to 5 months. Getting started again was very difficult -- I was to the lesson where the first actual index was required. I finally just jumped in, did the lesson quite recklessly & sent it in. It was by far the worst grade I got in the course, but I got going again and finished. Now I am having problems getting the Applied course started. *LIFE* came up with an unexpected twist again, but I have gotten the book from the library to do the 1st lesson. Once I get rolling I think I will be OK. One thing I did, which kept the course from seeming so slow, was send in two lessons together, or close together. Then, when I had a lesson where I felt I needed to wait for feedback before sending it in, I went ahead and did the assignment. Then when my completed lessons were returned, all I had to do was make needed corrections/revisions. That way my new lesson was out quickly, and the turnaround time did not create so much inertia. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:01:48 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: INFO: Armaggedon Update ii >From Christine Headley Odder and odder, the GMT-2000 sales address is ...com and it's priced in dollars. Despite being a co.uk site. -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:55:06 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: INFO: Armaggedon Update >From Christine Headley Dafydd Llwyd Talcott wrote: > The URL I quoted for Greenwich Mean Time was incorrect, as Rollie > Littlewood has kindly pointed out [I omitted the "com"]. It is: > > http://www.gmt-2000.com/main.html > Can't say I got far with this myself until I thought, hey, the Greenwich meridian is in the UK, try 'co.uk' instead of 'com'. Success! (Though I haven't located any freebie) -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:59:15 -0400 Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Organization: Broccoli Information Management Subject: another try at comp-generated indexes Check out what this company is trying to do: http://www.iconovex.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:47:05 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Cookbook Indexing Questions >From Christine Headley Manjit Sahai wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I am indexing a cookbook. In this book the author has quoted lots of > cookbooks which were published in 18th and 19th centuries. (As a matter > of fact, she has 'borrowed/used' some of the recipes from those books in > her current book). Whenever she mentions the name of the cookbook, she > also mentions the year of the publication of that particular cookbook in > parens. > > Mostly in most of indexes I see publications listed with author's name > in parens. I wanted to know what is the most acceptable method of > listing publications? For example, > > Food and Cookery for the Sick and Convalescent (1904), 46 > Food and Cookery for the Sick and Convalescent (Farmer), 46 > Food and Cookery for the Sick and Convalescent, 46 > > which entry looks more appropriate. I myself prefer the 2nd one. > > Thanks for all the help in advance. > > Manjit K. Sahai > RAM Indexing Services > Sahai-Co@msn.com I'd go for the second, as well, unless there are more than one cookbook with the same title in which case I would also include the date as extra differentiation. However if the two books were roughly the same age, I would miss out the date altogether. Not that anyone has ever asked me to index a cookbook, or general cookery title. -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:00:37 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: My USDA experience is improving In-Reply-To: <199807091430.HAA25395@neti.saber.net> Anne, Glad to hear you're perservering and not giving up the ship! Naomi >Just wanted to update the list about the negative experience I was >having with the USDA course. I was able to reach someone by e-mail >concerning my defective course manual (many missing pages), and she said >she'd send a new one right away. She also e-mailed me the Lesson 1 >questions so I could go ahead and finish them. Hopefully this is the end >of the confusion! Despite my prior frustration, I am looking forward to >working through the course. > >Anne > >-------------------------------------------- >Anne B. Day >Editorial Production Manager ph: (215) 731-2227 >Professional Jeweler magazine fax: (215) 545-9629 >Bond Communications >aday@professionaljeweler.com ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer, M.A. POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "And in such indexes, although small pricks to their subsequent volumes, there is seen the baby figure of the giant mass of things to come at large." William Shakespeare: "Troilus and Cressida" ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:58:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcy Brown Subject: Re: subjectivity in indexing Hi Dan, MAH-velous idea! I finished the USDA about a year or so ago, but only recently decided I wanted to *do* something with it. So I've been practicing, and working on a small project for a friend's nonprofit society. But I'm not getting any feedback, so I have no idea if my skills are improving. I, too would be willing to pay for course material that someone has developed along these lines Marcy Brown Dan Connolly wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone knows of an instructor who has > devised such a set of examples (perhaps 100 or so). I'm a firm believer in > practice, practice, but the fact is you need feedback, feedback as well. It's > all very well for me to make selections from books on my shelf, but to have > someone explain why something should be a heading or not would be the valuable > part of all this. I'd certainly be willing to pay an appropriate fee for such > a set of lessons and the feedback that accompanies them. > > I'd love to hear what others think of this method. Thanks. > > Dan > > -- > > ========================================= > Daniel A. Connolly > mailto:connolly@neca.com > WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services > www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com > Woodstock, CT, USA > ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:06:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301@AOL.COM Subject: another benefit of USDA course Much of the recent discussion has focused on the course itself, but for me the USDA course was an element in my progression to the point where indexing become my profession, my full-time work, my day job. What could have been a disaster during my course hasn't become a disaster in the long run. (I was taking the course to, in my mind, "remind me where the commas go" since I had done a little indexing years ago in library school.) My USDA teacher quit midway during the course and we all got transferred to another teacher. But that original teacher has become a good friend and colleague. As has been said here many times, the primary way indexers get work is through networking. So I've joined my local ASI chapter and figure out how to get myself to the annual conferences despite the cost. Those things are important to do. But my first indexing teacher has sent me work. She has recommended me to other overloaded indexers who've also become my friends. She has asked my advice in areas in which I have more expertise. We catch up by telephone every few months and those calls now are over an hour each time. Gotta plan them -- friends can talk a lot! I know not every student/teacher relationship will end up this way, but mine did. It's likely it could happen again. Deborah ==================== Deborah Patton, Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA dp1301@aol.com 410/243-4688 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:07:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: another try at comp-generated indexes In-Reply-To: <35A58383.3B177ED2@catskill.net> Kevin, Not sure what you want us to look at. Iconovex abandoned Indexcicon [the automatic indexing program] a couple of years back [thank heavens, although I miss demonstrating it to my indexing classes to show just how bad that kind of program can be] and has also eliminated EchoSearch. What am I missing? Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > Check out what this company is trying to do: > > http://www.iconovex.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:19:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course Hi Beverly, > Are there other courses out there that carry a lot of weight in the indexing world? Some people have taken Susan Holbert's video course. I think you can get her URL info from the ASI web site. >Also I've been wondering just how difficult it is to get started in indexing and obtaining the first client. It's not a cake walk, but it isn't impossible, either. I marketed for 3 months before I got my first index, and even that one came only after a phone call, letters, more follow-up phone calls, and a bid package. It seems to me that the more publishers you contact, the better your chances of finding one in need of an indexer. > Also--how much money does the average indexer earn if he/she is working full time at it (40 hours). Most people charge by the page, so how much you make per hour depends on how quickly you can read, mark, type, and edit an index. ASI has an annual rate survey, and full time salaries run a wide gamut - averaging around $20,000 to $50,000 per year. But don't expect to make that much right off. It can take years to build up a large enough client base to work full time consistently. Plus, since you will be running your own business, those 40 hours will need to include non-billable hours for administrative tasks. Some indexers have learned by self study (helps to have a mentor for feedback - hard to find a mentor), or University courses (usually under Library Science degrees). The administration of the USDA course is frustrating, but I didn't find the majority of the lessons to be mentally tasking - a little too easy, actually. But the three real indexes were very good learning experiences. >Would also appreciate any additional advice. Thanks! Read as much as you can about indexing and be sure you really want to do it. The financial barriers to entry are fairly low, but you need a lot of self motivation to make it all happen. Good Luck! Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:52:43 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Glossary/Index? Christine Michaud asks: "Has anyone here ever seen a combined glossary/index?" Here are three examples from my shelves, each followed by some sample entries (here, of course, their hanging indents are lost): ---- "INDEX/GLOSSARY" in Edward D. Johnson, The Handbook of Good English, Washington Square Press, 1991: *dates* commas with month, day, and year, Rule 2-38; cardinal rather than ordinal numbers with day of month, Rule 3-9; whether to use words or figures for days of the month, Rule 3-1 *defining construction* a construction used not just to modify but to identify a words or phrase ; see Rule 2-1 (NB This "index/glossary" is, in effect, an alphabetical series of dictionary-style entries, supplementing the main text and referring to it, if at all, not by page number but by chapter and rule number; thus "Rule 2-1" means the first rule given in chapter 2, and these rule numbers are included in the running heads) ---- "Index and glossary" in Hugh Williamson, Methods of Book Design: The Practice of an Industrial Craft, 2nd edn, London, Oxford UP, 1966: _albumen plate_ -- photo-litho plate with image developed on grained surface -- 245 382 _antique_ (paper) -- moderately bulky, opaque paper with matt or rough surface -- 303, & inking 231, & beating 294, featherweight 303, & letterpress 381 _featherweight_ -- paper which in 30 x 40: 60 lb ream bulks about an inch per 320 pages -- 290 303 _quire_ -- one-twentieth part of a ream, usually 25 sheets: also _section_ -- 114 _quoin_ -- wedge for locking up in chase -- 43 225 _quotations_ 128 130 134-5 _quotes_ 130 133 134-5 (NB The punctuation mark -- is a spaced en-rule in the book) ---- "INDEX OF PEOPLE and what they were at the time" in Dennis McEldowney, Then and There: a 1970s diary, Auckland UP, 1995 Fleming, Charles, chief palaeontologist, NZ Geological Survey, 26 Frame, Janet, novelist, 23 Fraser, Ross, editor, _Art New Zealand_, 176 Freire, Paolo, Brazilian Catholic priest, liberation theologian, educator, 5-6 Friedlander, Marti, photographer, 98 (NB The author told me he devised the index like this to avoid having footnotes) ---- The conclusion I draw from these examples is that the index cum glossary (or index cum biographical notes) is a well-established form, and if your clients want you to prepare one, you should go ahead and provide what they ask for. The absence of any discussion of such compilations in the standard works on indexing (Mulvany, Wellisch, etc.) merely demonstrates once again what we already know: that our standard works are neither comprehensive nor infallible. >From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile (+64) 7-854-9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:35:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: "subheading" vs. "subentry" At 07:31 PM 7/9/98 -0400, Ann Norcross wrote: >Michael Brackney wrote: >> >> At 12:30 PM 7/9/98 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: >> >> >Subentry question: >> > >> >In my quest for perfect clarity . . . >> >> Speaking of clarity, here's a point I want to make about indexing >> terminology: since we use the term "entry" to refer to a heading plus a >> locator, shouldn't we use the term "subheading" instead of "subentry" to >> refer to the second level of a heading? Although it has long been used and >> is still much in vogue, the term "subentry" is essentially a misnomer since >> nobody uses it to refer to a subheading plus a locator. > >Warning: ignorance alert (*my* ignorance, that is). The last >line above confuses me. A subheading plus a locator is exactly >what I mean when I say either "subentry" or "subheading." What >do other people mean? Ann, this surprises me: do you mean to say that if you were to refer to the subentry of the entry "text: editing, 42-48" you would mean "editing, 42-48" instead of just "editing"? I would agree -- and in fact it's my point -- that this is literally what the term "subentry" suggests, but surely the term "subheading" means, simply, the second level of a heading. Thus "subentry" is a misnomer for "subheading"; and it's even a misnomer in and of itself in that locators are not associated with subheadings alone, but with complete headings, i.e., with subheadings (plus any further levels of headings) together with the main headings they modify. >>This has been >> recognized by the writers of ISO 999, among others, and I think we should >> follow suit. > >Could you say more about what the usage is in ISO 999? Yes, I >should study it, but I haven't yet. If a prolonged discussion >does not seem appropriate at this point, could you point me to an >online or hardcopy reference? Thanks. Unfortunately I can't say more about this because I haven't seen ISO 999 myself and probably won't get a copy of it because it costs more than it's worth to me (c. $100 if my memory serves me right). I've only seen Pat Booth's article on it in the April 1997 _Indexer_ and subsequently corresponded with Janet Shuter (who had a hand in the development of ISO 999) about a couple of issues including the "subheading" vs. "subentry" issue we're discussing. On the other hand, a couple of years ago I did get a copy of the draft NISO standard on the Alphabetical Arrangement of Letters and the Sorting of Numerals and Symbols (put out by the committee chaired by Hans Wellisch) and noticed that "subheading" was the term used therein. >> Ideally speaking, not one more neophyte should have to wonder >> why some of us say "subheading", others say "subentry", and others say one >> or the other! > >Do people mean different things when they use these two words? Before I read your reply I thought not, but now I'm not so sure. Like Pam Rider, I thought we all use these two terms to indicate the second level of a heading, i.e., just the words, but you, for one, seem to have conceived it a little differently. Makes me glad I brought this topic up because I do think it's important for us to make our use of indexing terminology "clear and unambiguous", not only for ourselves but also for others who might be confused by what might sound to them like jargon. All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:51:30 -0700 Reply-To: jlee@eskimo.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Y2K on Laura Lee Program For those who are interested in the Y2K subject, Laura Lee has what she terms a "world recognized expert" on her show Saturday night. I If you don't have a station in your area that broadcasts the Laura Lee Show, her web site has a link and a "real audio" so you can listen in through your computer. Failing that, she sells audio tapes of the interviews at $7 to $14 depending on how long the discussion was. Disclaimer: This show does get a little far out (well, maybe far, far out), so discretion is advised (;->). * * * * * Roleigh Martin, A world recognized expert on the Year 2000 embedded systems problem, Martin recently gave the keynote address in London at the IQPC Project Year 2000 Embedded Systems. He writes: "The Year 2000 Computer and Electronic Control problem is most worrisome for lay people when it comes to the issue of whether or not the critical utilities we rely upon will be working in January 2000. This is an upgrade task that has to be completed in every community. In those communities where due diligence has been done, the Year 2000 problem will be painfully tolerable--painfully because some problems will be universally felt, such as price increases of critical items, such as fuel, because of partial manufacturing facilities crippled by the Year 2000 Bug, such as in the Middle East. In those communities, where poor due diligence exists, the Year 2000 bug could be disastrous. Some governments have a "battle plan" in place and people in those areas can determine where their utilities are in the upgrade process. What are the options for those in the dark about the problem? What are the options for those who find out their utilities are behind?" Martin has published seven articles on this topic and his web site is referred-to by President Clinton's Year 2000 Council Web Site. He is one of the 30-some invited speakers in the ongoing internet-based virtual Y2K conference sponsored by the G-8 countries and moderated by the US GSA office. MORE INFO AND LINKS AT: http://www.lauralee.com/martin.htm Ed Yourdon - Y2K Best Case and Worst Case Scenarios Author of "TimeBomb 2000" which looks at the human side of the Y2K Problem. How will it affect the lives of average people and everyday systems? Yourdon project various scenarios worst case to best case, from home PCs to world financial networks, and a variety of "domino effects" in-between, with fallback advice. Yourden compares Y2K to a hurricane: lasts a day, requires a year of cleanup. MORE INFO AT: http://www.lauralee.com/yourdon.htm ************************************************************************* ANSWERS TO FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FOLLOW. ************************************************************************* THE LAURA LEE SHOW WEBSITE: http://www.lauralee.com/index.cfm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:25:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: Re: Database indexing In a message dated 98-07-10 14:43:54 EDT, you write: > I > have heard very little about database indexing. Can it be done on a > freelance basis also? Yes! If you have a computer (and obviously you do) you have all the equipment you need. > How do you get started in database indexing? I made most of my contacts when I had day jobs. Cold calls can work as well because the larger database publishers usually have a pool of freelancers if they use freelancers. > Is it > more of a steady stream of work with regular deliveries and due dates, or is > it as irregular as BOB indexing appears to be? It can be a mix, depending on your clients. I have one client that includes conference proceedings in their database along with journal articles. The journal articles are relatively steady but the conference proceedings (which I get before publication) can be on a very tight schedule. > I assume that you are > referring to indexing journal articles, or does "database indexing" > encompass something else as well? That is how I have always defined database indexing. I'm not sure if the term has another meaning to others. > Do you use the same types of software > (e.g. Macrex, Cindex, Sky), or something else? Can you point me towards > relevant literature or websites? I don't think Cindex and Macrex are appropriate for database indexing and I usually use odd software provided by the client. (And, believe me, I have seen some pretty odd software in my day). A few folks accept work in WordPerfect if it is tagged properly so they can tweek it to fit their system. For one client, I just use a ball point pen and write all over the manuscript. SkyIndex has a database indexing product out that I plan to take a look at. Shelley - Can you help out here? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: "subheading" vs. "subentry" In-Reply-To: <199807100412.XAA18411@mixcom.mixcom.com> When I say "subentry," I mean "subheading." And vice versa. ;-) Actually, I rarely use the term "subheading," because it has a different meaning in the context of copyediting (which I used to do). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:07:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Database indexing Many database producers use freelancers in the manner that they are not employers of the database (in terms of benefits) but there is a contract involved to work for that company. The reasons for this is that unlike back of the book indexing, database indexing involves controlled vocabularies and other conventions that require some time to learn, therefore there is a training effort on the part of the database producer. Another area with database indexing is one of quality control which would work against hiring someone for a short time. From my experience, the work of a new indexer will be reviewed by senior staff for 6 months to a year. As for software, STAR is a common one. The software is more like database management software as there is a need to validate much of the data as it is entered. This system of validation reduces data entry time, ensures quality control as a wrong value can't be entered and prevents spelling errors. Depending on the producer you might dial into the system to index, work onsite and there could be a possibility of creating some type of data file that could be inputted. The other option is indexing on worksheets which are then inputted. These worksheets are unique to the producers as they contain data for other fields like document types, checktags and the indexer just checks off the ones that are applicable. If you are interested in working in this field, I would suggest in addition to indexing skills you should read up on information retrieval as a understanding of how the data will be retrieved by the users will improve your indexing. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 05:25 PM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-10 14:43:54 EDT, you write: > >> I >> have heard very little about database indexing. Can it be done on a >> freelance basis also? > >Yes! If you have a computer (and obviously you do) you have all the equipment >you need. > >> How do you get started in database indexing? > >I made most of my contacts when I had day jobs. Cold calls can work as well >because the larger database publishers usually have a pool of freelancers if >they use freelancers. > >> Is it >> more of a steady stream of work with regular deliveries and due dates, or >is >> it as irregular as BOB indexing appears to be? > >It can be a mix, depending on your clients. I have one client that includes >conference proceedings in their database along with journal articles. The >journal articles are relatively steady but the conference proceedings (which I >get before publication) can be on a very tight schedule. > >> I assume that you are >> referring to indexing journal articles, or does "database indexing" >> encompass something else as well? > >That is how I have always defined database indexing. I'm not sure if the term >has another meaning to others. > >> Do you use the same types of software >> (e.g. Macrex, Cindex, Sky), or something else? Can you point me towards >> relevant literature or websites? > >I don't think Cindex and Macrex are appropriate for database indexing and I >usually use odd software provided by the client. (And, believe me, I have seen >some pretty odd software in my day). A few folks accept work in WordPerfect if >it is tagged properly so they can tweek it to fit their system. For one >client, I just use a ball point pen and write all over the manuscript. >SkyIndex has a database indexing product out that I plan to take a look at. > >Shelley - Can you help out here? > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:12:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Deason Subject: Texas Chapter of ASI Is there a Texas Chapter of ASI? Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:13:07 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Accuracy I am sorry that my annoyance showed in my original posting on this topic. I apologise to anyone I may have embarrassed or offended. It was absolutely not my intention to be personal, which is why I quoted anonymous examples. (Ann has identified herself, and appreciated the corrrection, and I very much appreciate the spirit of her contributions). But I do not apologise for raising the topic of accuracy, since it is part and parcel of being an indexer. This is an important matter, for the reasons which others, including Elinor Lindheimer and Christine Shuttleworth, have expressed much more clearly than I did. Just to check whether I was over-reacting, I have now done a search of the email messages which I have chosen to save over the past eighteen months. The name Mulvany is correctly spelled in 56 messages and wrong in 32. That's a 36 per cent error rate. In my opinion, this is an epidemic, and the contagion was spread by email, but let's hope we have it beaten now. Oh yes, and congratulations to you, DoMi, and all the others who always got it right. Alan -- **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:06:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Accuracy In a message dated 98-07-10 19:00:19 EDT, you write: << appreciated the corrrection >> Alan, That's "correction" with only 2 r's. Let's play a correcting game, offlist, that is, and see how much we learn! You keep score. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:02:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Accuracy In-Reply-To: <199807102259.SAA32339@camel26.mindspring.com> At 09:13 AM 7/11/98 +1000, you wrote: >But I do not apologise for raising the topic of accuracy, since it is part >and parcel of being an indexer. And I say again, posting to INDEX-L is not indexing. At best, it is a conversation at the watercooler while taking a break from indexing. Show me that error rate in an index or any published work and I'll worry about it. In the INDEX-L context you are simply straining at a gnat. Dick Dick Evans infodex@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:15:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Accuracy In-Reply-To: <199807102308.TAA12823@camel10.mindspring.com> At 07:06 PM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-10 19:00:19 EDT, you write: > ><< appreciated the corrrection >> >Alan, >That's "correction" with only 2 r's. >Let's play a correcting game, offlist, that is, and see how much we learn! You >keep score. Once upon a time, in a corporate life that now seems incredibly far away, there were in-house equivalents of newsgroups and LISTSERVS called forums. Each forum was assigned a topic and there were many topics related to technical writing, the use of the English language, etc. The forums were populated by intelligent, articulate, educated people. Some of them made mistakes when posting. Others took great delight in seizing on such mistakes. Eventually, the attention on mistakes became distracting. Too much bandwidth was expended on endless rehashings of who used "its" when "it's" was called for or vice versa. In the end, a special forum was set aside for such discussions. It was called NITPICK FORUM. Those who wanted to play "correcting games" were encouraged to play there. Indeed, it was fertile ground for sharpening one's communications skills, as anything posted there was subjected to the tighest scrutiny. Other forums went back to discussing their respective charters. Occasional grammatical, spelling, and typographical errors crept in. Civilization did not fall. The moral of this tale is left as an exercise for the reader. Dick Dick Evans infodex@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:22:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Tortora Subject: Re: Accuracy In a message dated 7/10/98 8:18:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, infodex@MINDSPRING.COM writes: << It was called NITPICK FORUM. Those who wanted to play "correcting games" were encouraged to play there. Indeed, it was fertile ground for sharpening one's communications skills, as anything posted there was subjected to the tighest scrutiny. Other forums went back to discussing their respective charters. Occasional grammatical, spelling, and typographical errors crept in. Civilization did not fall. The moral of this tale is left as an exercise for the reader. >> Amen, Dick! As a full time teacher (part time indexer), I feel as though there are teenagers among us. I will leave it at that. Sue ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:24:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Nitpick forum Was: Accuracy I love this nitpicking! We have lost so much in our hurried but lazy lives. It is nice to have rules, know what they are, and abide by them. I say, hurrah for the nitpickers! Nell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:45:52 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs I recently did a practice index for a book which already had an index. The published version made liberal use of sub-subentries, so in addition to taping the index shut while I was working on my version (an idea I got from someone on this list), I added the restriction that I could not use sub-subentries on the assumption that that would be a more typical index. Is that right? Do most indexes have level restrictions? I'm not sure yet, but I think I'm developing a preference for indexes that _don't_ have more than one level of subentry, because they don't have that hierarchical category look. Maybe it depends on the subject matter. Anyone have opinions about this? Thanks in advance, Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:11:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: A Note on Responsibility for Y2K All - I was asked, off-list, about who was responsible for the Y2K problem. Perhaps my answer might be of interest to others. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Bill - Thanks for your kind comment re my posting(s). About responsibility: Many years ago, in the dim, dark ages of IBM punched cards and unimaginably (to us) limited computer memory, every precious byte was cherished and treasured. In these days of gigibyte hard disks and 128 megs of RAM,. it is difficult to remember that only twenty-five or so years ago computer memory was fabricated from little ferrite donuts wound by hand with fine wire, programs were modified by changing pin-to-pin wiring on large punch boards, and that we were entering data via 80-column punched cards. If one has only 80 columns per card, one tends to skinp on the date field, and nobody every believed that these ancient programs (now called "Legacy" programs) would last until the end of the millennium. BTW, despite all the hoopla, the real end of this millennium is not on 31 December 1999, but on 31 December 2000! So we all will celebrate our Digital End Times a year early! If you doubt this, consider whether change for a dollar is 99 cents or 100 cents. The 100-year 20th century does not end until all 100 years have elapsed. Sorry, but we all will be hyped (and this time I really mean Hyped) into the so-called Next Millennium a year early. The 21st century doesn't start until January 1, 2001! Hmnnn..... To get back to responsibility. Probably more than any disaster in history, responsibility for Y2K is almost perfectly distributed historically among all computer programmers, system developers, corporate and organizational users, software vendors, chip makers, and computer manufacturers (including BIOS developers). It is quite impossible to assign specific blame. Now, of course everybody with half a brain (according to Dilbert that exempts most of management) realized that sooner or later somebody ought to DO something about this. But nobody wanted to bell the cat (for :"bell the cat" read: 'Take responsibility for spending the money to fix it"). No rational, self-serving, CYA-type Information Systems Manager ever would tell his CEO that he wanted to hire ten experienced programmers and spend several million dollars to fix some sort of esoteric computer problem that wouldn't surface until 12/31/99, well after his (and the CEO's) retirement. But the clock ticked on, and management denial simply made the problem more acute because more and more non-compliant chips and systems were designed and installed, and more and more tightly-interlocked, non-compliant, information exchange systems were installed worldwide. Where once we could have forestalled this disaster, we kept on doing the same-old same-old. But the piper has to be paid, and now we are going to foot the bill. And the bill is? Well, nobody knows exactly, but some estimates of the money to be spent by banks, businesses, institutions and governments worldwide range into the billions of dollars. And note, please, that not a penny of this enormous expenditure generates any useful goods or services (except for benefitting the aging programmers called out of retirement to fix COBOL programs). It all is wasted resources expended simply to stay in business. That is a non-trivial economic disaster, even if not one single program fails. And keep in mind that somebody (i.e., we) will have to pay for this in increased product costs, incrreased cost of services, increased insurance premiums, increased God-Knows-What. There is no free lunch, and once the shock has worn off businesses will move to recoup costs. Count on it. There is an old adage in engineering: "Why is there never time or money to do it right, but there always is time and money to do it over?" I hope that this helps put Y2K in some historical perspective. Best wishes, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:13:39 +0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Etiquette I think the cause of tension is remarks to the effect, 'Indexers who do X or don't know Y ought to consider work other than indexing'. Things might cool down if we assumed each other's legitimacy as indexers. There may be a need for a showdown on this subject, but I cannot see INDEX-L as the place for that. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:19:55 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: Re: Database indexing In a message dated 98-07-10 18:09:22 EDT, you write: > > As for software, STAR is a common one. That certainly rings a bell! I had forgotten about that one. > If you are interested in working in this field, I would suggest in addition > to indexing skills you should read up on information retrieval as a > understanding of how the data will be retrieved by the users will improve > your indexing. Excellent advice, Roberta. This is where my MLS paid off. I focused on information science, as it was called then, and reference. Understanding the user/searcher is as important in database indexing as it is in BOB indexes. It is also important to keep in mind that BOB users will approach their information needs in a much different way than someone searching a database. I would like to add that some database indexing (at least a lot of what I have done) goes not only to an online searchable database, but into print as well, in the form of an annual journal index, for example. Again, search styles and information needs have to be considered. So its not just picking words out of a thesaurus. (Just in case anyone was wondering.) By the way, I tried to send some sage advice to another Index-L-er but the message seemed to float off into cyberspace. I suggested the web sites for ASIS and NFAIS. Would you happen to have the URLs? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs I think the number of levels in an index has more to do with the subject treatment than the subject matter. I did a sub-subentry index recently which I began with just one subentry level. I made the decision to add another level of detail about 3/4ths through the book. It was actually liberating to have that option. And I think it looked just fine - better than an early draft which needed many *see* references off the subentries. The book was an in depth (and not to mention exciting :)) discussion of crops and insects, and there was too much information for a one level index to do it justice. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com > >Is that right? Do most indexes have level restrictions? I'm not sure >yet, but I think I'm developing a preference for indexes that _don't_ >have more than one level of subentry, because they don't have that >hierarchical category look. Maybe it depends on the subject matter. >Anyone have opinions about this? > >Thanks in advance, > >Vicki > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:23:45 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: communication To Bob Richardson, Thank you for your gracious phone call this evening. It was a pleasure to speak with you and I greatly appreciated our discussion. You are correct about e-mail, while it is a wonderful convenience, it is often a poor way to communicate. Fortunately, telephones allow us a way to more personally interact. I would like everyone on the list to know that chivalry is alive and well in the person of Bob Richardson. Best, Sylvia Coates (Mama Bear) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:29:56 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs >From Christine Headley How the book is going to look at the end is also relevant. I am indexing the second edition of a short law book at the moment, and I am going to check with the editor whether the layout is going to be the same as the first edition or not. (I also copyedited the alterations, and numbered the book in paragraphs before sending it back, so I don't have page proofs.) Law books usually go to several layers of subs, but in this book the line length of the final layer begins to look odd. I often ask how many characters per line they expect to set the index in, and what they do for wraparound lines and indentation on subs. This is also why I like to get copies of books I do from the publishers - so that I can check how the appearance I envisaged worked out in practice. Unfortunately, it's the law books I can't really ask for - I once did one that retailed for GBP 800, I believe. Short law books, however, are another matter. Susan D. Hernandez wrote: > > I think the number of levels in an index has more to do with the > subject treatment than the subject matter. I did a sub-subentry index > recently which I began with just one subentry level. I made the decision > to add another level of detail about 3/4ths through the book. It was > actually liberating to have that option. And I think it looked just fine > - better than an early draft which needed many *see* references off the > subentries. > > > > > > >Is that right? Do most indexes have level restrictions? I'm not sure > >yet, but I think I'm developing a preference for indexes that _don't_ > >have more than one level of subentry, because they don't have that > >hierarchical category look. Maybe it depends on the subject matter. > >Anyone have opinions about this? > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Vicki -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:38:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Database indexing NFAIS (National Federation Abstracting and Indexing Services) This is a group for database vendors http://www.pa.utulsa.edu/nfais.html American Society of Information Science http://www.asis.org Also, to avoid confusion, STAR is not software for individual use. Roberta At 10:19 PM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-10 18:09:22 EDT, you write: > >> >> As for software, STAR is a common one. > >That certainly rings a bell! I had forgotten about that one. > >> If you are interested in working in this field, I would suggest in addition >> to indexing skills you should read up on information retrieval as a >> understanding of how the data will be retrieved by the users will improve >> your indexing. > >Excellent advice, Roberta. This is where my MLS paid off. I focused on >information science, as it was called then, and reference. Understanding the >user/searcher is as important in database indexing as it is in BOB indexes. It >is also important to keep in mind that BOB users will approach their >information needs in a much different way than someone searching a database. > >I would like to add that some database indexing (at least a lot of what I have >done) goes not only to an online searchable database, but into print as well, >in the form of an annual journal index, for example. Again, search styles and >information needs have to be considered. So its not just picking words out of >a thesaurus. (Just in case anyone was wondering.) > >By the way, I tried to send some sage advice to another Index-L-er but the >message seemed to float off into cyberspace. I suggested the web sites for >ASIS and NFAIS. Would you happen to have the URLs? > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:13:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: not-quite-generic cross references / space considerations In the book I'm working on, I have found it necessary to split several subentries off as main entries, since I'm only allowed a one level of subheadings. Specifically, several countries which are discussed at length have been broken down as: Oz (lots of subentries) Oz, political institutions of (lots of subentries) Oz, political parties of (lots of subentries) My problem is that I need to provide a crossreference to the "political institutions of" entry for each country. I'm concerned that if I use the construction "See under specific countries," the reader may miss it (even though I provide cross-references from "Oz" to "Oz, political institutions of" and so on.) However, the construction, _See also specific countries,_ political institutions of looks very awkward to me. Any elegant solutions or half-baked ideas? :-) I'm open to all suggestions. As a last resort, I could list out each relevant main entry, but as there are a number of them, and each is fairly long, and space is tighter than I'd like, I'm reluctant to spend the space. Thanks in advance. Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:40:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs In-Reply-To: <199807110257.TAA07859@pacific.net> Susan wrote: > I think the number of levels in an index has more to do with the >subject treatment than the subject matter. Absolutely. One of the express purposes of an index is to show the hierarchical relations of the text. The depth of the subject matter determines the number of levels required. In some indexes I do, only a handful of main headings have sub-subentries, yet those sub-subentries are very important to the index. In others, of course, they occur more frequently, or not at all. I would caution against developing an aesthetic distaste for them... they are really quite useful in their place. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:10:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs Vicki wrote: << Is that right? Do most indexes have level restrictions? I'm not sure yet, but I think I'm developing a preference for indexes that _don't_ have more than one level of subentry, because they don't have that hierarchical category look. Maybe it depends on the subject matter. Anyone have opinions about this?>> It really depends on the material. I would never use more than one level of subentry in a scholarly book, except for the special case of a biography. In social science textbooks, I seem to be somewhat in the minority (judging from the previous-edition indexes I receive) in not using more than one level, because I think that more than one level makes the index somewhat harder for the reader to navigate.I don't think it's terrible in a textbook index (in which the information is more likely to be hierarchically organized in the text), but in many of the examples I see it looks like laziness to me. On the other hand, in really big indexes like the government document collections I index, or this Vietnam War encyclopedia I'm drowning in right now (13,000 entries before editing) I do absolutely use two levels (no more). There's just no way around it. I use a lot more double-posting in indexes like this, too. I'd love to hear what other people think, especially about textbooks. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:26:21 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy Ann said: >I was gone all day today, and returned to a flock of starling >posts on INDEX-L. And if there are indexers who do not know this >reference ... 'we can only pity their ignorance and despise >them.' Or maybe Bob Richardson can help. Bob? Could you >re-post The Post? Thanks. > >Ann (negligently quoting Hazel Bell quoting Angela Thirkell >quoting Fanny Squeers in _Nicholas Nicholby_. See her (Hazel's) >fabulous article in The Indexer, Vol. 21, No. 1, April 1998. I >love literary characters who quote! Lord Peter and Harriet were >always at it, and they are my very favorites of all time.) > I'm afraid I am going to show my ignorance, and you can all pity and despise me if you like, but I haven't a clue what the starling reference is all about. Please enlighten me. However, and now I really am sticking my neck out in view of all the discussion there has been about whether or not to correct inaccuracies (and I had to check the spelling of that!), I'm afraid you don't know your Dickens well enough Ann. It is *Nicholas Nickleby*. But please don't take offence (you might spell that offense in US, but it is OK in UK - I checked). Seriously though, I know some people have said that it is OK in e-mails to have a few spelling and grammatical mistakes because of the haste in which things are written, but I think it is a BIG mistake to press Send before you have taken a few seconds to read through what has just spilled from your brain through your fingers to the screen. You might regret it later! Names spelled wrongly because you haven't been able to check them is one thing, but simple spelling mistakes, or missing or duplicated words (which seems to very common) is simply carelessness, and it shows. Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:20:42 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jgreene Subject: "subheading vs subentry" and ISO 999 --------------31650689782E3E3C3F9F8EAC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for the curious among us: In regards to the current discussion about the proper use of the terms "subheading" and "subentry" on this list, I do have in my possession BS ISO 999:1996, which provides the following definitions: 3.6 index entry: Single record in an index; it consists of a heading; a qualifier or scope note if required; subheading(s) if required; and either locator(s) or cross-reference(s) or both. 3.7 index heading: Term chosen to represent in the index an item or concept in a document. 3.8 index subheading: Heading that is subsumed under a heading to indicate a subordinate or modifying relationship. 3.9 locator: Indication, following a heading or subheading, of that part of a document, or that item in a collection, to which the heading or subheading refers. A quick scan of the entire text shows no use of the term "subentry". I am still a student of indexing, currently working on both the USDA course and the Society of Indexers' training program. My efforts to use correct terminology when submitting coursework (and that's in addition to varying spelling conventions!) require a lot of double-checking of the several different reference materials I own; namely, BS ISO 999, The Chicago Manual of Style (fourteenth ed.), and Indexing Books, by Nancy Mulvany. I have noticed the following: from Indexing Books: (pg. 13) 1. Main Heading: This is the top line in the index entry hierarchy. As [Dorothy] Thomas points out, it has been referred to by at least six terms: access point, entry, index entry, heading, main heading, and subject heading. (pg. 13) 2. Subentry: The lines of indented text that immediately follow the main heading (and are not cross-references) will be referred to heare as subentries. Other writers refer to them as subheadings. (pg. 14) 3. Reference Locator: Usually in a book index the reference locators are page numbers..... (pg. 14) 5. Entry: A main heading along with the entire block of information that follows it will be referred to as an entry..... and from Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed.): 17.3 The Entry: The entry is the principal subdivision of an index. A simple entry consists of a heading and what is technically called a locator. 17.4 Subentries: An entry consisting of a heading and a large number of page references is always, in good indexing practice, broken up into subheadings. These consist of subheadings, each representing some aspect of the main heading, and page numbers.... 17.8 A complete entry consists of the principal heading and page references, all subheadings and page references, and all cross-references. I have included the terms "locator" and "reference locator" because they have caused more trouble for me than the others. My pfennings worth, Joyce Greene --------------31650689782E3E3C3F9F8EAC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for the curious among us:

In regards to the current discussion about the proper use of the terms "subheading" and "subentry" on this list, I do have in my possession BS ISO 999:1996, which provides the following definitions:
 
    3.6  index entry:  Single record in an index; it consists of a heading; a qualifier or
            &nbs p;              ;       scope note if required; subheading(s) if required; and either
            &nbs p;              ;       locator(s) or cross-reference(s) or both.

    3.7  index heading:  Term chosen to represent in the index an item or concept in a
            &nbs p;              ;           document.

    3.8  index subheading:  Heading that is subsumed under a heading to indicate a
            &nbs p;              ;                  subordinate or modifying relationship.

   3.9  locator:  Indication, following a heading or subheading, of that part of a
            &nbs p;           document, or that item in a collection, to which the heading or
            &nbs p;           subheading refers.
 

A quick scan of the entire text shows no use of the term "subentry".
 

I am still a student of indexing, currently working on both the USDA course and the Society of Indexers' training program.  My efforts to use correct terminology when submitting coursework (and that's in addition to varying spelling conventions!) require a lot of double-checking of the several different reference materials I own; namely, BS ISO 999, The Chicago Manual of Style (fourteenth ed.), and Indexing Books, by Nancy Mulvany.  I have noticed the following:

from Indexing Books:

    (pg. 13) 1. Main Heading:  This is the top line in the index entry hierarchy.  As [Dorothy] Thomas points out, it has been referred to by at least six terms: access point, entry, index entry, heading, main heading, and subject heading.

    (pg. 13) 2. Subentry: The lines of indented text that immediately follow the main heading (and are not cross-references) will be referred to heare as subentries.  Other writers refer to them as subheadings.

   (pg. 14) 3. Reference Locator: Usually in a book index the reference locators are page numbers.....

   (pg. 14) 5. Entry: A main heading along with the entire block of information that follows it will be referred to as an entry.....

and from Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed.):

   17.3 The Entry: The entry is the principal subdivision of an index.  A simple entry
           consists of a heading and what is technically called a locator.

   17.4 Subentries: An entry consisting of a heading and a large number of page
           references is always, in good indexing practice, broken up into subheadings.
           These consist of subheadings, each representing some aspect of the main
           heading, and page numbers....

   17.8 A complete entry consists of the principal heading and page references, all
           subheadings and page references, and all cross-references.
 

I have included the terms "locator" and "reference locator" because they have caused more trouble for me than the others.

My pfennings worth,
 
Joyce Greene
 
  --------------31650689782E3E3C3F9F8EAC-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:37:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs In-Reply-To: <199807110612.XAA02394@pacific.net> Regarding the use of sub-subentries, Do Mi wrote, in part: I don't think it's terrible in a textbook index (in >which the information is more likely to be hierarchically organized in the >text), but in many of the examples I see it looks like laziness to me. > >On the other hand, in really big indexes like the government document >collections I index, or this Vietnam War encyclopedia I'm drowning in right >now (13,000 entries before editing) I do absolutely use two levels (no more). >There's just no way around it. I use a lot more double-posting in indexes like >this, too. Laziness, hmmm? I slave over my main heading/subentry/sub-subentry structures. Many textbooks don't require sub-subs, but many of the ones I index do. Things I consider when choosing whether to move a subentry/sub-sub group out to become its own main heading are: 1) whether the subentry is absolutely integral to the main heading and therefore the user is most likely going to go to the main heading first; 2) whether the subentry is integral and the user is likely to appreciate finding it in that milieu; 3) whether there are several main headings fighting over that same sub/sub-sub; 4) the nature of the main heading; 5) How long the main heading is; and 6) I'm sure there are other considerations I'm not thinking of right now. Note on 4) If the main heading in question turns out to be one of the central headings for the index, I'm more likely to move the subentry/sub-sub out to become its own main. If it is simply one of many complex threads in the book, I'm more likely to leave it with its main heading. Note on 5) In many of the textbooks I do, I have main headings for women, men, African Americans, Whites, etc. These entries can become very long. Frequently I find that I can group entries under these headings by such subentries as health, sexuality, family, employment, etc., which then of course yields sub-subentries under each of these subentries. These subentries do not stand alone as mains, but they serve to organize a complex main and as such help, not hinder, index navigation. And yes, this is the way Nancy Mulvany taught me to index. I operate on the premise that a user would rather find the information in the first logical place rather than being cross-referenced out merely because the particular subentry is complex. In addition, the type of textbooks I frequently index build some very large main headings that are interlinked with other main headings, and the detail is required. In the type of example I gave in the note on 5 above, I most likely also have an entry for, say, sexuality, which has cross references to women, men, African American, and Whites among its subentries. My thinking is that if someone wants all the information that is available in the book on nouns such as women, men, African Americans, or Whites, they only have to go to one place. The greater the level of abstraction, the more places they have to go to get the information. That's how I approach an index. YMMV for sure. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:43:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: "subheading vs subentry" and ISO 999 In-Reply-To: <199807110929.CAA15570@pacific.net> Joyce, your research results just go to show that the terms are synonyms as they are used in the field, in this case, ours! hey, it happens. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:17:15 -0500 Reply-To: pwren@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Wren" Organization: myself Subject: Re: "subheading vs subentry" and ISO 999 jgreene wrote: > Just for the curious among us: > > In regards to the current discussion about the proper use of the terms > > "subheading" and "subentry" on this list, I do have in my possession > BS > ISO 999:1996, which provides the following definitions: And "BS" stands for??? peace pam, wannabe indexer in Texas pwren@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:06:25 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jgreene Subject: Re: "subheading vs subentry" and ISO 999 Pam, "BS" stands for "British Standard" Joyce > jgreene wrote: > > > Just for the curious among us: > > > > In regards to the current discussion about the proper use of the terms > > > > "subheading" and "subentry" on this list, I do have in my possession > > BS > > ISO 999:1996, which provides the following definitions: > > And "BS" stands for??? peace > > pam, wannabe indexer in Texas > pwren@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:32:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Texas Chapter of ASI In-Reply-To: <199807102215.SAA27697@mail3.bellsouth.net> More than that, there's a South Central Chapter that includes TX, AR, LA, & OK. Where are you at? You can contact Joanne Clendenen (Houston, 281-469-4461) at ... or she may see this reply on the list. Mike (in Baton Rouge) Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Carol Deason > Sent: Friday, July 10, 1998 5:13 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Texas Chapter of ASI > > > Is there a Texas Chapter of ASI? > > Carol > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:22:28 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: trouble getting AOL and ICQ to work? Does anyone using AOL have trouble using ICQ chat? If not how do you get around AOL? What version do you use? Where are you dialling in? A big city or a country town? This is for my online Web indexing class. (http://www.wwwalker.com.au) Dwight ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:36:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy J.A Binns wrote: > > Ann said: > >I was gone all day today, and returned to a flock of starling > >posts on INDEX-L. And if there are indexers who do not know this > >reference ... 'we can only pity their ignorance and despise > >them.' Or maybe Bob Richardson can help. Bob? Could you > >re-post The Post? Thanks. > > > >Ann (negligently quoting Hazel Bell quoting Angela Thirkell > >quoting Fanny Squeers in _Nicholas Nicholby_. See her (Hazel's) > >fabulous article in The Indexer, Vol. 21, No. 1, April 1998. I > >love literary characters who quote! Lord Peter and Harriet were > >always at it, and they are my very favorites of all time.) > > > > I'm afraid I am going to show my ignorance, and you can all pity and > despise me if you like, but I haven't a clue what the starling reference is > all about. Please enlighten me. Bob Richardson wrote a post some time ago where he described the tendency of index-l to rise up like a flock of starlings over various controversial issues. I'm hoping he'll re-post it. > However, and now I really am sticking my neck out in view of all the > discussion there has been about whether or not to correct inaccuracies (and > I had to check the spelling of that!), I'm afraid you don't know your > Dickens well enough Ann. It is *Nicholas Nickleby*. But please don't take > offence (you might spell that offense in US, but it is OK in UK - I checked). Damn. I looked right at it in Hazel's article, typed what I thought I saw, and typed it wrong. Blame me, not Hazel. And thanks, Margaret. > Seriously though, I know some people have said that it is OK in e-mails to > have a few spelling and grammatical mistakes because of the haste in which > things are written, but I think it is a BIG mistake to press Send before > you have taken a few seconds to read through what has just spilled from > your brain through your fingers to the screen. You might regret it later! > > Names spelled wrongly because you haven't been able to check them is one > thing, but simple spelling mistakes, or missing or duplicated words (which > seems to very common) is simply carelessness, and it shows. So the above ("seems to very common") was a deliberate illustration, yes? There seems to be some sort of Law that requires that the finding of mistakes in other's posts causes one's own mistakes to multiply proportionately. So, pick away, all. -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Genealogy indexes, need for Hello everyone, I just got back from a mini-vacation to Manchester, Vermont where I was tracing my family tree on my father's side. The need for indexes is obvious in genealogy. I would not easily have found the name of my great-great-great grandfather had it not been for a manuscript book that had been written by a neighbor. The book was nothing more than a listing of the houses and streets in the town and the people who had lived there at a certain time. Someone had typed the manuscript (the orginal was handwritten) and indexed it. I knew the name of my great-great grandfather, who was mentioned as living in his father's house; fortunately, my great-great grandfather's name was indexed and that is how I found HIS father's name. Since there were very poor or incomplete courthouse records, this find was a godsend in my search. >From there, once I knew that particular name, the search was easy because there were nearly complete records done by professional genealogists on the Purdy family. (Turns out I can trace my family back to Yorkshire, England as early as 1550.) So why I am telling you all this? Since so many newbies want to know how to gain indexing experience, might I suggest indexing town histories and other related materials (local newspapers, etc.)? There are literally hundreds of these that are not indexed. The tricky part, of course, is that many names changed (i.e., in my family's case, the name "Brundage" is given as "Brundage" but also as "Brundish"). Your chances of getting paid to do this work would be slim, but it would be experience. In addition, you might meet authors who are researching material for books that will need indexes. At the very least, you may meet people who know people who are writing books...You never know. Best of all (in my opinion!), you will be making life easier for people looking for their family history. ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy At 09:36 AM 7/11/98 -0400, Ann Norcross wrote: >>J.A Binns wrote: >> Names spelled wrongly because you haven't been able to check them is one >> thing, but simple spelling mistakes, or missing or duplicated words (which >> seems to very common) is simply carelessness, and it shows. > >So the above ("seems to very common") was a deliberate >illustration, yes? > Poetic justice here, I think. I have often wondered at the glee with which some people on INDEX-L jump on others' errors in posts. Is it because it is gratifying to know that other people make mistakes, too, and that one is not the only person making the occasional mistake? Yes, sometimes people make errors in posts on INDEX-L (I know I have!), but it doesn't happen that often in comparison to other lists I have read. Let's face it, folks, no matter how often you read something over, you may actually miss something like a double word or a misspelled word or (as above) a missing word. Even the books we index are prone to errors: I don't know about you, but I sometimes get final page proofs from very reputable publishers and I end up marking dozens of errors! As Dick Evans said, a post on INDEX-L is not an index; I imagine that most people posting on INDEX-L respond fast and furiously because they need the time and care for their real work--indexing. If I had to worry about a faceless censor/editor out there scrutinizing my every post for errors, well, I might not want to post very much, would I? That probably holds for a lot of you. So let's cut back to the real business of INDEX-L, which is the business and mechanics of indexing. ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:44:13 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Genealogy indexes, need for Cynthia Bertelsen writes: Since so many newbies want to know how to gain indexing experience, might I suggest indexing town histories and other related materials (local newspapers, etc.)? There are literally hundreds of these that are not indexed. ... Your chances of getting paid to do this work would be slim, but it would be experience. ... ------------------------------------------------------ It depends upon what you do. If the work is of broad appeal, there is the possibility of getting royalties. There are publishers who specialize in the subject and people who buy those books. I did two of these so far. They are transcriptions and/or abstracts, and of course indices, of Spanish census documents for colonial southeast US. They emphasize English settlers coming into Louisiana and Florida territories during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. The catch was I had to have enough background to know what was of interest, be able to read the documents and not the least go to the archives and find/copy them. The documents for these two books are in the Archivo General de Indias (Seville Spain) and the East Florida Papers (Library of Congress DC). The books are: 1991. "Anglo-Americans in Spanish Archives: Lists of Anglo-American Settlers in the Spanish Colonies of America, A Finding Aid." Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Baltimore Maryland. 1998. "The Last Days of British Saint Augustine: A Spanish Census for an English Colony." Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Baltimore Maryland. The amounts paid haven't been very large, but they keep on coming and the work can be cited on your CV. Many archives, not just the ones in distant places and/or exotic locations, have manuscripts worth publishing... Lawrence H. Feldman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:44:00 -0500 Reply-To: pwren@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Wren" Organization: myself Subject: ISO 999 jgreene wrote: > Pam, > > "BS" stands for "British Standard" Well, I'm confused. What is the relationship of the British Standard with the ISO?If ISO is intended to be international in scope then why do the Brits have a different one? regards, pam the wannabe indexer in Texas pwren@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:48:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy In-Reply-To: <199807111419.KAA07470@transfer.usit.net> If I've got to start worrying about every freakin typo and error and misspelling, (and I'm reasonably careful) or that an error here reflects badly on me as a professional, then I will simply stop posting. I don't have the time or inclination to worry about such trivia. I put that time and effort into my work, not into my leisure time. Reading and writing to this list, even though it is a professional list as opposed to the other lists I subsribe to, is done on my leisure time. Please don't take away the fun of this for me. OTOH, one of the things I get a major kick out of on this list is the flame wars. So don't stop on my account!! Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: William Meisheid Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: A Note on Responsibility for Y2K >. And note, please, that not a penny of this enormous expenditure generates any useful goods or services (except for benefitting the aging programmers called out of retirement to fix COBOL programs). It all is wasted resources expended simply to stay in business. That is a non-trivial economic disaster, even if not one single program fails. One could consider this a WPA project for "aging programmers called out of retirement"... ;<) ________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified RoboHELP Training http://www.sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 70713.2225@compuserve.com or wgm@sageline.com Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP training ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:36:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs Victoria wrote: << Laziness, hmmm? I slave over my main heading/subentry/sub-subentry structures. >> Victoria, I've seen your work, and I didn't mean you! I didn't mean to offend anyone--I just said that _sometimes_ it looks as if the indexer has used sub- subs (or even sub-sub-subs) instead of thinking it through. Thanks for outlining your criteria--a lot of food for thought in there. I do think this is partly just a question of different equally valid indexing styles--and definitely worth discussing. I really am sorry if you felt criticized by what I said. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:53:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy I wrote: >is a professional list as opposed to the other lists I subsribe to, is >done on my leisure time. Please don't take away the fun of this for me. Make that "subscribe" See what I mean? R Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:30:01 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Accuracy It's amazing how people blow up things on listservs. None of us who have posted in this thread about how we feel when we read posts with serious errors in them have any problem with occasional typos. I am sorry if anything I wrote made any of my respected colleagues (Dick and Rachel, for instance) feel threatened. My goodness, we are all human and human beings make mistakes--which is why the Navajo, I once heard, make sure there is one error in every rug. My problem has been with those who would want me to take them seriously, refer work to them, etc., yet they seem unable or unwilling to take the time to write clear sentences or spell well-known names correctly. One of my dear colleagues chastised me privately for revealing her secret method of eliminating indexers from her referral list! But this much is certain: if you care about your career--and I am speaking directly to the newbies on the list, from 26 years of experience--you will temper your ego, learn from your mistakes (we all make them!), and jump into your nearest ASI chapter to volunteer your services in any way you can--especially to help set up meetings. We're all in this together, and we all need each other. If you care about the profession, your own professional life will prosper. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox. Again, apologies to anyone I have offended. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:36:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Accuracy In-Reply-To: <000f01bdacf9$eddf23e0$6e0cbdcc@elinorl.mcn.org> Oh my dearest dear Elinor, I wasn't offended, I just felt like throwing in my 2 cents. You weren't offensive, though you were the one who mentioned about not referring to people who make errors in posts, I forget the way you worded it, you were just the catalyst that got me to jump in. I decided that my Attitude for Today would be paranoia, so I said what I said. I'm sorry too, if I worried you. You must say whatever you want to say, offensive or otherwise, but you weren't offensive, at least, not to me. (I have not spellchecked nor proofread this post.) Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:57:23 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Subject: Subs vs. Sub-subs DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > I don't think it's [use of sub-subs] terrible in a textbook index (in > which the information is more likely to be hierarchically organized in the > text), but in many of the examples I see it looks like laziness to me. > I agree - sometimes they are absolutely necessary, but I think they may be used more often than needed. Here's an example of what I would consider laziness. It's made up, but based on the kind of thing I've been seeing alot in computer manuals lately. When I said I thought I was developing a preference for indexes that don't use sub-subs, what I really meant was that I have an aversion to this kind of structure (in a hypothetical book on sports and sports equipment): rollerblading dangers to pedestrians rollerblades features of of the rich and famous as sport amateur professional as opposed to this, which I prefer (assuming rollerblading really is a word): rollerblades features of of the rich and famous rollerblading amateur dangers to pedestrians professional I like this better because roller blades the object is separate from rollerblading the activity. This is admittedly a trivial example, but I keep seeing this kind of thing with say "browsers" being a sub with sub-subs under the main entry "browsing", and it annoys me as a reader, especially when I know that the author has taken care to differentiate between the two. Sometimes these differences are subtle, and I think that difference should be maintained in the index. The other part of my question was whether your clients dictate the use or non-use of sub-subs, or whether the indexer generally gets to use professional judgment? Also, how common are crossrefs from sub-subs? Vicki P.S. To any fans of rollerblades out there, please forgive any unintentional insult. It's just that I was nearly run over several times while out on a leisurely stroll on the local bike trail, even though I stayed well out of the main line of traffic. Yikes! The speed of arms and legs akimbo! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:00:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Lists of Publishers Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:23:54 EDT From: Carol Deason Subject: List of Publishers Where is the best place to find a list of publishers? Carol, In the March/April 1998 issue of KEY WORDS, on page 25, I created a list of places to look for publishers, "How to Find Publishers, Or Beyond Literary Marketplace (LMP)." Some of those resources listed are online sources. ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:29:46 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: ISO 999 In-Reply-To: <900168416.2114128.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In article <900168416.2114128.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, P. Wren writes >jgreene wrote: > >> "BS" stands for "British Standard" > >Well, I'm confused. What is the relationship of the British Standard >with the ISO?If ISO is intended to be international in scope then why do >the Brits have a different one? The British Standards Institution often adopts ISO standards as British Standards; they participate in the development process of many of them, so this makes sense. In the past they often republished them with a BSI cover and gave them a BS number in addition to the ISO number. Thus we have "British Standard Guide to establishment and development of monolingual thesauri" BS5723:1987; ISO2788-1986. I cannot find a definitive statement on the BSI web site but it looks as though they have now extended this principle to give the ISO standard the status of a British Standard by just sticking BS in front of the ISO number rather than allocating a separate BS number. There is a list of these at The standard being discussed here is listed on the ISO WWW site without the BS prefix as: ISO 999:1996 Information and documentation -- Guidelines for the content, organization and presentation of indexes Edition: 2 (monolingual) Number of pages: 47 Price code: R Technical committee / subcommittee: TC 46 / SC 9 ICS: 01.140.40, 01.140.40, 01.140.40 Descriptors: books, documentation, documents, general conditions, indexes (documentation), periodicals, presentation, publications, subject indexing [I don't know why they repeat an identical classification code three times, and the descriptor "general conditions" doesn't look particularly useful, but these are beside the point here :-) ] Sorry if this is more than you want to know on this topic, but I think it is an interesting follow-up to the discussion about accuracy in another thread. It is no problem to overlook minor typographical errors in the middle of messages, but when citing people, publications, dates and so on it can waste the time of many readers and library staff if they are sent on a wild goose chase after misspelled names and inaccurate references. I think it is always best to double check and if doubt give more information than is strictly needed. (Not that I'm guiltless . . .). Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 181 372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex, EN2 7BQ, UK Fax: +44 181 372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk --------------- --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 00:51:20 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Subject: Accuracy This story is true. About two months ago, I made a post to Index-L about a genealogical index I'd come across. I used an example wherein I inadvertently changed Prince Albert's name from to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Saxe-Coburg-Golgotha. When I quickly scanned my post, that looked like a perfectly well formed name. I think it was Christine who gently informed me of my error (and I appreciated it). I was embarrassed, since I am one of those people who tend toward thinking that misspellings even in post-it notes are a sign of serious character defect (lest ye think me truly awful, I rush to tell you that I am able to tell the difference between simple typos as a result of a hurried response as opposed to being a symptom of a deranged mind - just not in myself!). But that was the end of that, I thought. Then several weeks ago I was showing a friend/potential client how to use search engines. She asked me to see what I could find out by searching on her name, then on my own. What was the sole item found by one search engine when given my name? Someone from Index-L had forwarded my faux pas to the the public genealogy newsgroup, where they all had a good laugh at my expense. FWIW, from someone who picks nits for a living. :-) Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:35:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Subs vs. Sub-subs In-Reply-To: <199807111639.JAA19107@pacific.net> Do Mi wrote: >Victoria wrote: > ><< Laziness, hmmm? I slave over my main heading/subentry/sub-subentry > structures. >> > >Victoria, I've seen your work, and I didn't mean you! I didn't mean to offend >anyone--I just said that _sometimes_ it looks as if the indexer has used sub- >subs (or even sub-sub-subs) instead of thinking it through. > >Thanks for outlining your criteria--a lot of food for thought in there. No, Do Mi, I used that line as a springboard; I did not take offense. I meant to be humorous, and I know that my indexes are excellent (!) I too have seen very poor usage of sub-subentries, and I was hoping to show the kinds of things I think about as I use them in what I consider to be appropriate ways. Railing against sub-subs is one of the recurring themes on index-l, and since I make judicious use of them and find them to be indispensible in the hierarchical index form, every now and then I just gotta say something. NOT that I thought you were railing against them... you just gave me a springboard. I apologize for not being clearer about my intentions. I'd like to have a chance to study one of your indexes of a similar-type text to understand your approach better. Best to all, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:39:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Bryant Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course At 07:02 PM 07/09/1998 EDT, you wrote: >Hi--my name is Bev. > Also I've been >wondering just how difficult it is to get started in indexing and obtaining >the first client. Also--how much money does the average indexer earn if he/she >is working full time at it (40 hours). Would also appreciate any additional >advice. Thanks! > Hello Index_L pros, I hope you will help Bev and me with the questions she asked above. I am SERIOUSLY considering taking a year off from being a school media specialist to be home with my family and index to keep me sane and keep paying my house payment. I am taking the USDA course now and many of you have responded to my questions on flexible time (thank you!) I think the actual work of indexing information is very gratifying but I am having some trouble with actual practice. I brought home several books over the summer that I discarded from the library so I could practive indexing. These are books such as THE WONDERS OF ELECTRICITY (1931) and CAREERS FOR YOU ( 1961). I have been making up cards and then comparing the indexes I have created. They are "really" different from the ones in the back of these books! I don't know if I just need to work harder, learn a new technique, practice more, or if indexing has changed from say 1931???? I know every index will be different depending on the indexer and other factors, but I am concerned when the two indexes are so far off from each other. Admittedly, I have just started the USDA course, and maybe I need more experience. So, back to Bev's questions and maybe I shouldn't quit my job just yet. I can't mentally do the library work I do now and try to index at night or weekends. So, any advice on salary and difficulty breaking into this profession would be appreciated. I have read all info. on ASI website. Beverly, I hope you don't mind me tagging along on your request for info. I know there has been a thread on this listserv against newbies asking for information, and I don't want to offend anyone. Please accept my apology ahead of time. My birthday is Monday (44) and I will either put in my resignation for next year and then keep practicing on old discarded books or decide to put the USDA course down and be a full time media specialist another year. (So please,please, please respond 8-) Charlotte Bryant cbryant@carol.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:42:38 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Genealogy indexes, need for The message <199807111402.PAA00236@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from Cynthia Bertelsen contains these words: > Since so many newbies want to know how to > gain indexing experience, might I suggest indexing town histories and other > related materials (local newspapers, etc.)? Or, if you belong to a family history society, volunteer to index its magazine. I use that as a practice ground for trying out different work routines, amongst other things. It's also given me my only experience to date of producing camera-ready copy (well, photocopier-ready, actually!), and because it's a journal index rather than a once-only book index, it's forced me to delve into parts of Macrex that I might not otherwise have reached (i.e. volume numbering, index cumulation etc.). -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: A Note on Responsibility for Y2K My favorite curmudgeon, Bob Richardson (ROBJRICH@AOL.COM) wrote, in part: > >If one has only 80 columns per card, one tends to skinp on the date field, and >nobody every believed that these ancient programs (now called "Legacy" >programs) would last until the end of the millennium. > Exactly! Here is my perspective as it applies to mainframe programs, the ones which could shut down corporations, electric utilities and air traffic control systems if they stop working. I became a professional programmer in 1968, and managed programmers (and their managers) from 1984 to 1991. Even though programmers were no longer limited to 80 characters per record by the late 60's, the push to minimize the space occupied by programs and their data was ever-present even then. The two bytes of memory occuped by two characters which always contain the digits "19" seems an insignificant price to pay from the perspective of 1998, but when the program must manipulate data sets which contain this field millions of times, it does add up. When you are concerned about whether the 1968-vintage mainframe computer's limited memory and processing power can handle three programs at a time instead of two, and when millions of dollars in performance penalties are at risk if you fail, the tradeoff was rarely even discussed because the answer was so obvious. The cases in which the cost of the four-digit year was too high helped extend the legitimacy of the two-digit year as accepted practice, long after the actual limitations of the technology were relaxed. The first people to be concerned about this were programmers. I can remember discussions with colleages in the early 1970's about the year 2000 and what would happen. There was always a humorous tone to these discussions, because any idea that programs then being written would still be functioning 30 years later was beyond belief. (Most of us weren't 30 years old then, and could not imagine being 60.) This was a time when new programming languages and software design tools were being invented every year; we believed that the technical underpinnings of our work would be completely transformed within a decade, making it advantageous to completely re-program everything we were doing. If this had come to pass, it would have been totally ridiculous for anyone to still cling to ancient programs as the next millennium approaches, and we would not be having this discussion. What we could not foresee was the dramatic increase in inflation, and hence labor costs, which began in the 70's and continues (at least in programming jobs) today. Coupled with the precipitous decrease in the cost of computer hardware, it became much more cost-effective to invent tools to automatically allow old mainframe programs to continue to function on new computers, even though slowly, than to assign people to re-write the programs. This resulted in a kind of "time-warp" in which programs designed in a quite reasonable manner for the needs of 1970 can still be doing critical work in a corporation in 1998. By the early 90's, when the problem was too close for the comfort of many programmers, they ran into management "filters." Programs originally designed and developed at a cost of $2.00 per line of code would need to be re-vamped at a cost of $25.00 per line of code. This couldn't be done "on the side" and out of sight; projects which the CEO knew would help the competitive position of the company this year would have to be delayed in order to do a project with no immediate material benefits, i.e. prevent a disaster which wouldn't happen for eight years. It is not hard to see how the self-interest of middle management caused a distinct lack of enthusiam for presenting such recommendations to upper management. The calendar kept flipping. By the mid-90's, forward-looking organizations could no longer pretend they didn't have a problem, but the "not on my watch" syndrome took over. (CEO: Why does this have to be fixed NOW? You can't even tell me exactly how long it will take. Let my successor worry about it; there will still be time.) Suddenly, it was 1997, and too many companies were finding out that they had to do a four-year project in three years or less. And they didn't know how their hundreds of suppliers were going to handle it, either. I do not claim that all mainframe programmers were so insightful, but I know that some of them were, to no avail. I read and chuckle at Dilbert every day. Often, it is a bitter chuckle. What about PC's and their software, most of which came into existence very recently? First of all, not all personal computers and programs have the problem: the first Macintosh, designed in 1981-83, included a clock chip which would handle dates up to the year 2040, whereas the first IBM PC, designed in 1980-81, was incapable of handing the year 2000. Many PC programmers writing in the 80's took the same short-cuts that their mainframe brethren had used for years. Was it laziness? Perhaps in their world of lightning-fast innovation and instant obsolescence the year 2000 seemed as far away in 1980, or 1990, as it did to us benighted souls in 1970. P.S. I believe we have already seen the first layoffs caused by the Y2K problem. Diebold laid off 400 people because of slowing sales of new ATM machines. Their customers say their programmers are concentrating on fixing Y2K problems instead of expanding their ATM networks... Good news if you are a contract programmer getting such work, but bad news if you work(ed) in a Diebold factory. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter American Society of Indexers *What's indexing? ---> http://asindexing.org/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:28:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Attrition Rate for USDA Course On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:39:02 -0400 Charlotte Bryant writes: I am taking the USDA course > now and many of you have responded to my questions on > flexible time (thank you!) > > I think the actual work of indexing information is very > gratifying but I am having some trouble with actual practice. > I brought home several books over the summer that I discarded > from the library so I could practice indexing. These are books > such as THE WONDERS OF ELECTRICITY (1931) and > CAREERS FOR YOU ( 1961). Well, practice does help. I knew someone in college who always said "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." I always found him to be annoying. Do the course and keep practicing! I suggest two things - practice on subjects you know something about, and practice on subjects you know something about and there is a market for. You can include practice (unpublished) indexes on your beginning resume. Since we all agree that no two indexes are the same, but should accomplish the same information retrieval role, I think you will have a less discouraging time comparing your index on a familiar subject with the included index, than on a subject such as electricity (unless you know a lot about that!). And not all printed indexes are the best they can be. My first professional index was about land surveying. Being very nervous about doing a good job, and needing some term definitions, I checked out a library book on land surveying. It had a very long entry with the heading "Computing," with sub entries such as "traverses" and "distances." Now, I might be new at this, but I thought that was a poor choice for a heading. And I didn't feel bad at all that my index didn't have that in it. Can you finish the course, do some marketing, and then resign? That would be good timing. It is reasonable to expect the occasional job to start with, then a steadier stream once more publishers realize what a great job you do :)! Good Luck deciding! Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:26:08 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: ISO 999 >>Well, I'm confused. What is the relationship of the British Standard >>with the ISO?If ISO is intended to be international in scope then why do >>the Brits have a different one? > >The British Standards Institution often adopts ISO standards as British >Standards; they participate in the development process of many of them, >so this makes sense. In the past they often republished them with a BSI >cover and gave them a BS number in addition to the ISO number. Thus we >have "British Standard Guide to establishment and development of >monolingual thesauri" BS5723:1987; ISO2788-1986. And the Australian and New Zealand standards organizations (which work pretty much in concert, I gather) do the same. They are now in the process of "cloning" ISO 999, which means it will be republished with the text unchanged, but with new covers and numbers identifying it as an Australian and New Zealand standard. The practical advantage of this is that the publication will be significantly cheaper for us to buy. Alan -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:18:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy > If I've got to start worrying about every freakin typo and error and > misspelling, (and I'm reasonably careful) or that an error here reflects > badly on me as a professional, then I will simply stop posting. I don't > have the time or inclination to worry about such trivia. I put that time > and effort into my work, not into my leisure time. Seconded. But ever since taking a class in copyediting and proofreading at the start of my career, I've noticed every error that makes it into my leisure reading. And there are a couple of typos in the prayer book I use. Every time one comes up in the cycle I am jarred out of my concentration. Is there any way to turn it off? Janet ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:08:32 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy >From Christine Headley Nobody has attacked 'every freakin typo and error', merely defended them. From Alan Walker on, some contributors have expressed concern about the spelling of names and, more recently, things like ISO numbers, where inaccuracy can have severe implications for anyone trying to act on the information. If people really can't tell the difference between a typo and something germane to what they are saying, I begin to wonder about their indexes. You know, zillions of locators after 'the' (or possibly 'hte').... ;) Somebody mentioned not having run their post through a spellchecker. I think this superbly illustrates the problem. The things that need to be reproduced correctly won't appear in one - at least, I don't *think* Nancy is that well known yet. Christine H Rachel Rice wrote: > > If I've got to start worrying about every freakin typo and error and > misspelling, (and I'm reasonably careful) or that an error here reflects > badly on me as a professional, then I will simply stop posting. -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:43:56 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Armageddon Approacheth!! In-Reply-To: <04072282518998@domain1.bigpond.com> It's Saturday night - do you know where your computer is? Computer users and small businesses, already reeling from the threat of the Millennium Bug, were told today of another, even more insidious, system-related time bomb. Dubbed 'The Weakened Bug', after the condition in which it leaves its victims, this unforeseen flaw causes users, computers and even whole offices to shut down for as many as two days out of every seven. Analysts predict that the Weakened Bug, which is triggered by the approach of an event code-named 'Saturday', will dramatically reduce productivity. Even those not directly affected by the bug will find their lives disrupted in catastrophic ways as they try to get in touch with incapacitated systems. Vast piles of uncollected letters will accumulate in mail boxes, causing them to explode and shower the streets with flying metal. Motorists unable to buy petrol in country towns will be forced to spend the night at cheap motels, resulting in outbreaks of flea-borne bubonic plague. And share traders and financial experts, lacking large regular infusions of money, may be forced to go without cocaine and Dom Perignon for as long as forty-eight hours. The origin of the Weakened Bug has been traced to an early systems engineer called G. Hova, whose preference for working in septal numbers has been carried through to modern wetware designs. Beale Z. Bubb, a management consultant, said today that the bug could be fixed, but only through a radical restructuring of Hova's operating system, 'from the firmament up'. "We can do it. We have the technology." said Bubb, adding "Hey, it's not the end of the world." ----------------------------- Seriously, I challenge any Armageddonist to come up with five clear, dated, verifiable predictions of major disruptive events which will be caused by the Millennium Bug (the Bug itself, NOT rumour-induced panic). For instance: 'The New York Times will not print for at least a week in January 2000' or 'At least ten Jumbo jets will crash in the ten days surrounding 1/1/2000'. Mail me publicly or privately. I'll put these on my Web site and after it's all over we'll see who was right or wrong. ...That is, of course, if there's anyone left alive (spooky spectral laugh, a la Boris Karloff). Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:18:33 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: CHAT: Y2K and CLK >From Christine Headley While I was going through the various posts regarding 'Armageddon' and 'Y2K', it struck me that, along with the financial newspaper advice, information gleaned from a Copyediting-L thread on Ice Storms earlier in the year would also be useful. I found myself telling my husband that we would need to stock up the freezer. 'What if the electricity goes off?' he asked. I don't understand why people want to leave town. I would have thought getting back again afterwards could well be difficult, and sorting out breakdown of electricity, water etc is more likely to take time. Particularly if the weather is bad! If you want a current illustration of what havoc malfunctioning computers can wreak, you need only look at Chek Lap Kok (CLK), HK's brand-new airport. The Airport itself is fine, the 'metro' connection with the centre of HK is working okay, the television is advertising how you can check in in Central two hours before your flight and, hey presto... However, there are any number of computer glitches. Luggage is getting lost. You can't check in in Central. You have to check in at CLK *three* hours before your flight, and even then having your luggage and your self on the same plane can't be guaranteed. At least one flight has taken off without anything in the hold at all. Flight information isn't appearing. If you don't know your flight has been called, your luggage may go without you. Air cargo is a *complete* mess. The company that deals with it only went to CLK at the opening because of great pressure from the Powers That Be; they didn't want to leave the old airport until mid-August. So what has happened? In a blaze of publicity, they have gone back to Kai Tak and are sending everything to and fro. As both airports are by the sea, I believe a lot of the stuff is going by barge. I am very glad that our possessions are being shipped out at the end of this month! Kai Tak is now not operative - 'they' moved a helluva lot of equipment overnight between Kai Tak closing and CLK opening. We have a narrow view right across the Harbour to Kai Tak, and saw a great deal of busyness in the dark, but we couldn't make out what most of it was. We had long gone to sleep by the time the lights went out after 1am. -- Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong 'Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true' (me, 1998) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:00:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: French Recipes Hi everyone, I am indexing a cookbook which has few French recipes in it. The publisher wants me to list them under their title as well as under the category. The publisher also wants me to list the titles in capital letters and everything else in lowercase. For example. Lait De Poule, 49....(this is some kind of French soup) Sweetbreads A La Newburg, 112 soup(s) lait de poule, 49 sweetbreads a la newburg, 112 My questions are..... 1....Should 'De' word in both the main entry and subentry be spelled as 'de'......or as 'De' ? 2....Should 'A La' words be put at the end of the entry so that the entry looks like this.... sweetbreads newburg, a la, 112 Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services Sahai-Co@msn.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Edwards Subject: USDA and JUNO email This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BDAD20.04A7B3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Delurking] =20 I must hold the record for longest time to complete the USDA's Basic = Indexing course. Signed up 4 years ago this month and am now on Lesson = 10. Someone said LIFE interfered with her studies -- I have been calling = it 'lifus interuptus'. Most of the delays are self-inflicted. My = instructor has been great. (Hi Vicky)=20 =20 As for -- was what I learned from the USDA course worthwhile? I think = so. But without my local ASI chapter, Index-L, the Denver conference = and two other local indexing courses I have taken (one taught by Carol = Roberts and the other by Virgil Diadato), I think I would not know as = much about indexing and much less about the business aspect. I have also = learned a lot about the computers and running a business from other = resources. My advice -- learn from as many different sources as = feasible. =20 As for JUNO email-- JUNO is close to launching JUNO Gold, a service which for (according to = their info)$2.95 a month will allow you to have email that will include = file attachments, both text files and pictures. (This is not an ad --I = happen to have Juno and I like it -- after all, it came with a spell = checker!). Since JUNO is the only email service which does not require = you to have an Internet connection, this may be an ideal solution for = those who need email but don't have or don't need an ISP. Beta testing = is in progress so it may be awhile. www.juno.com =20 I have learned much by lurking on this list. Thanks to all. =20 [Back to lurk mode...] =20 Jill Edwards jilled@juno.com gilraen@worldnet.att.net =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BDAD20.04A7B3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[Delurking]
 
I must hold the record for longest = time to=20 complete the USDA's Basic Indexing course.  Signed up 4 years ago = this=20 month and am now on Lesson 10. Someone said LIFE interfered with her = studies --=20 I have been calling it 'lifus interuptus'.  Most of the delays are=20 self-inflicted. My instructor has been great. (Hi Vicky)
 
As for -- was what I learned from = the USDA=20 course worthwhile?  I think so.  But without my local ASI = chapter,=20 Index-L, the Denver conference and two other local indexing courses I = have taken=20 (one taught by Carol Roberts and the other by Virgil Diadato), I think I = would=20 not know as much about indexing and much less about the business aspect. = I have=20 also learned a lot about the computers and running a business from other = resources. My advice -- learn from as many different sources as=20 feasible.
 
As for JUNO email--
JUNO is close to launching JUNO = Gold, a service=20 which for (according to their info)$2.95 a month will allow you to have = email=20 that will include file attachments, both text files and pictures.  = (This is=20 not an ad --I happen to have Juno and I like it -- after all, it came = with a=20 spell checker!).  Since JUNO is the only email service which does = not=20 require you to have an Internet connection, this may be an ideal = solution for=20 those who need email but don't have or don't need an ISP. Beta testing = is in=20 progress so it may be awhile.  www.juno.com
 
I have learned much by lurking on = this=20 list.  Thanks to all.
 
[Back to lurk mode...]
 
Jill Edwards
jilled@juno.com
gilraen@worldnet.att.net
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BDAD20.04A7B3A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:49:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Subject: Subs, Sub-Subs, and Multiple Errors Jeesh. Nothing is going right today. The "reply-to" field in my posts was set to respond to me only, and not to the list. I think it's fixed now. Do Mi replied to me, realized what was happening, and asked me to forward her post to all of you. You'll find it below, after the dashed line. The other two posts I received were to inform me of errors I'd made - I don't know if they were intended privately for me or for the list, so I'll just summarize (they were very nice and funny - if the original senders actually intended to post to the list and wish to do so now, I won't be offended). 1. Rollerblading is a brand name. I ought to have used "in-line skating" in my example. 2. The expression "arms and legs akimbo" is bizarre and incorrect, as akimbo means "with hands on hips and elbows out to the sides" - difficult to imagine with legs involved, and not what I meant at all! You won't catch me posting about accuracy again anytime soon... and as I replied to the gentleman who sent me the correct definition of akimbo, now nobody will _ever_ refer any work to me, and all good indexers will frown on me, with arms akimbo. :-) And just so you know, I truly love this list. Vicki ------------- Do Mi speaking starting here --------------- Vicki wrote: << rollerblading dangers to pedestrians rollerblades features of of the rich and famous as sport amateur professional >> This is exactly the kind of thing I meant when I referred to laziness. (Especially since, in indexes like this, each of those subentries has one locator!) There are other instances where I think that my choice of breaking out a subentry and making it a main entry is fairly arbitrary--I could just as appropriately make sub-subs. (Don't have an example in front of me right now, but as I said, it's more likely to come up in huge books.) I have had publishers tell me they strongly prefer only one level of subentries; others leave it to me. I ran it by the editor on the current encyclopedia, and he said they usually don't like that (in large reference works!) but agreed with me that it was appropriate in this case. I would only run a cross reference off of a subentry (much less a sub-sub) in a truly huge book (I will probably use some in this one). But...we had a large discussion about that on here recently! Oh good, Victoria, I'm glad you weren't offended :-). Whew. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Starlings and accuracy In-Reply-To: <199807120407.XAA07947@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Seconded. But ever since taking a class in copyediting and proofreading at >the start of my career, I've noticed every error that makes it into my leisure >reading. And there are a couple of typos in the prayer book I use. Every >time one comes up in the cycle I am jarred out of my concentration. Is there >any way to turn it off? > No, Janet. Once you go down that road, there's no turning back. You will never look at "15 items or less" at the supermarket checkout the same way again. ;-) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:44:03 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jgreene Subject: ISO 999:1996 Well, I guess I deserved to have my hand slapped for that "BS". I didn't intend to be sending bibliographic reference information in my message so much as information about terminology, so since I use the British Standard at home I thought it would be appropriate to indicate that as my source. Thanks to Dr. Leonard Will for the expanded information and the education. No pain, no gain? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Call for Proposals FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Sandi Schroeder (Sanindex@xsite.net) Phone: 847-303-0989 / Fax: 847-303-1559 or Lori Lathrop (76620.456@compuserve.com) Phone: 704-531-0021 CALL FOR PROPOSALS American Society of Indexers Annual Conference RACING INTO THE MILLENNIUM! June 9-13, 1999 Crowne Plaza Union Station Indianapolis, IN The American Society of Indexers (ASI) is currently accepting proposals for general session presentations, workshops, and roundtable discussions at its 31st Annual Conference, which is scheduled for June 9-13, 1999, at the Crowne Plaza Union Station in downtown Indianapolis. The theme of the ASI 1999 Annual Conference is RACING INTO THE MILLENNIUM! It will feature a variety of topics, such as: Basic Indexing Skills Branching Out and Building Your Portfolio Client/Indexer Relationships Editing Indexes for Usability Embedded Indexing Techniques Index Usability Studies Indexing Electronic Documents Indexing Historical Texts Indexing Periodicals Indexing Scholarly Texts Indexing Scientific and Medical Texts Indexing Technical Documentation Indexing Web Documents Marketing Skills in the 21st Century Negotiating with Clients New Indexing Tools Resources for Professional Indexers The Subtleties of Advanced Indexing Techniques Thesaurus Construction Writing Abstracts DEADLINE: November 2, 1998 Your proposal should contain the following information: 1. Your name, address, phone/fax numbers, and e-mail address 2. A brief bio (less than 150 words) that describes your qualifications and experience 3. Title of your proposed presentation 4. Format (select one of the following): General Session Presentation or Panel Discussion (30-40 minutes), Workshop (one-half day or full-day), or Roundtable Discussion (1.5 hours) 5. A/V equipment requirements 6. A one-page abstract describing your presentation, panel discussion, workshop, or group activities (if any). Presentations and panel discussions should be 20-45 minutes and should allow 10-15 minutes for questions from the audience. Workshop length may be either one-half day or full-day. Roundtable hosts should have sufficient material to promote discussion for approximately 1.5 hours. Submit proposals to one of the following conference planners: Sandi Schroeder Schroeder Indexing Services 2606 Old Mill Lane Rolling Meadows, IL 60008 Phone: 847-303-0989 Fax: 847-303-1559 E-mail: Sanindex@xsite.net or Lori Lathrop Lathrop Media Services 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 Phone: 704-531-0021 E-mail: 76620.456@compuserve.com The deadline for proposals is November 2, 1998. Acceptance letters will be sent by November 30, 1998. *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com President - 1998-1999, American Society of Indexers Lathrop Media Services, 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 / Phone: 704-531-0021 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:45:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Courses Several people have asked recently about courses in training for indexing= =2E I am pleased to say that following John Halliday's message announcing the= launch of the Society of Indexers' web site all we have to do is refer enquirers to that site: "http://www.socind.demon.co.uk/" The site includes information about indexing in general, advice to author= s, publishers and indexers and full details of the Society's course "Trainin= g in Indexing". = Those who do not have access to the Internet may obtain the information from: Society of Indexers Mermaid House 1 Mermaid Court London SE1 1HR England Best wishes Sue Lightfoot Cornwall, England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:27:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing In a message dated 98-07-08 05:11:03 EDT, you write: << 1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? (a) "Back of book" / book indexing [ x ] primarily, but database indexing secondarily. 2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: Initially, as part of a library school course (>20 yrs ago), then updated (c) through a correspondence course? [ Yes ] 3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level courses offer sufficient indexing content? [ No ] 4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? (a) introductory [ x ] 5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing here. Theory has its place, but indexing is a hands-on activity. Both must be part of indexer preparation; theory for eduction and practice for training. 6. What country do you live in? USA >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: pwren@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Wren" Organization: myself Subject: Re: ISO 999:1996 I don't think hand slapping is necessary. I was pleased to know that there are country standards attached to ISO. Although it still seems redundant. pam is sweltering Texas, USA jgreene wrote: > Well, I guess I deserved to have my hand slapped for that "BS". I > didn't intend to be sending bibliographic reference information in my > message so much as information about terminology, so since I use the > British Standard at home I thought it would be appropriate to indicate > > that as my source. Thanks to Dr. Leonard Will for the expanded > information and the education. No pain, no gain? > > Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: French Recipes My suggestions are sandwiched in between your comments. Be sure the appropriate diacritics are included in the final index, of course! At 09:00 PM 7/11/98 PDT, Manjit Sahai wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I am indexing a cookbook which has few French recipes in it. The >publisher wants me to list them under their title as well as under the >category. The publisher also wants me to list the titles in capital >letters and everything else in lowercase. For example. > >Lait De Poule, 49....(this is some kind of French soup) Should be "de". >Sweetbreads A La Newburg, 112 Should be "Sweetbreads a la Newburg". (Newburg is a proper name.) >sweetbreads > a la newburg, 112 Should be sweetbreads a la Newburg > >My questions are..... > >1....Should 'De' word in both the main entry and subentry be spelled as >'de'......or as 'De' ? de > >2....Should 'A La' words be put at the end of the entry so that the >entry looks like this.... > >sweetbreads > newburg, a la, 112 No. Look at other cookbook indexes like the one in Joy of Cooking--you will see chicken a la Campagne a la King You didn't ask this, but I think it is also necessary to comment here on the final sorting of entries in these cases. In the case of alphabetizing the "a la" situation, some cookbook indexes place it under "a" (Joy of Cooking) and others under the word following "a la". In keeping with the French manner, I would ignore the "a la" in the sort. ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:21:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Note on Responsibility for Y2K Larry - I read with great interest your wonderfully lucid commentary on the background to Y2K. What an extraordinary depth and breadth of mainframe/programming experience! Didn't know programmers could write that well - - might have to rethink some of my cherished stereotypes. And so late in my career! Drat! But "my favorite curmudgeon"? Really!! I am the most reasonable, amiable, patient, laid-back, long-suffering, taciturn, non-judgmental, downright lovable ol' pussycat in all of New England (and possibly as far south as Metuchen, New Jersey)... Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:11:39 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: French Recipes Hi everyone, Thanks to all who answered my questions about French recipes. I do not know what I would do without you folks! Happy indexing. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services Sahai-Co@msn.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:59:28 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: starlings and accuracy [again] >> Names spelled wrongly because you haven't been able to check them is one >> thing, but simple spelling mistakes, or missing or duplicated words (which >> seems to very common) is simply carelessness, and it shows. > >So the above ("seems to very common") was a deliberate >illustration, yes? > and >Nit-picky indexer--too busy to notice helpful people's imperfections, but >not too busy to notice yours! > Well, I wondered how many fellow nit-pickers would notice my deliberate mistake. I'm glad to find that I am not alone in noticing these things! Proves my point I think. Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:06:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Arabic names and titles I'm working on a book which includes a number of Arabic/Muslim names (and names in related languages.) I have gathered that "Maulana" is a title, but it is often used consistently in conjunction with some of these names (examples: Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Maulana Syed Abu A'la Maududi.) Should this title be included in the index? If so, how? The style sheet is inconsistent, listing the following: Azad, Abdul Kalam (Maulana) Maududi, Maulana Syed Abu A'la I have a similar question regarding the term "Ghulam" in the following names. Is it a title or a name element, and if a title, where should it go? The style sheet lists Ghulam Ishaq Khan Ghulam Mustapha Jatoi but Ahmad, Mirza Ghulam I'm also confused regarding name division. In the style sheet, a number of names are not inverted at all, while others are inverted at the final or penultimate name. Is this common in Muslim names? Should I assume the style sheet is correct, or is it probably inconsistent? If anyone out there is an expert, awake, and willing to help, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm on fairly tight deadline (Monday 5 pm EST), and I'll be up for quite a while. :-) TIA, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:04:46 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: ISO 999:1996 In-Reply-To: <900289330.1019059.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In article <900289330.1019059.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, jgreene writes >Well, I guess I deserved to have my hand slapped for that "BS". Not at all. You did us all a favour in drawing attention to the standard, and gave a perfectly correct reference to its British version. I tried to add a little to that by giving a bit more information and clearing up some doubts about the number. If we all chip in with what we can, hand slapping doesn't come into it: INDEX-L is a nice friendly group! Regards Leonard -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 181 372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex, EN2 7BQ, UK Fax: +44 181 372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk --------------- --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: French Recipes In-Reply-To: <199807120407.XAA07947@mixcom.mixcom.com> >1....Should 'De' word in both the main entry and subentry be spelled as >'de'......or as 'De' ? It's a preposition (means "of"), so I would leave it lowercase, "de." I've never seen it capped (unless it's the first word of a book title or something). > >2....Should 'A La' words be put at the end of the entry so that the >entry looks like this.... > >sweetbreads > newburg, a la, 112 I would also lowercase "a la" for similar reasons (means "in the manner of the," I think), *but* I'm not sure I'd put them at the end of the line. I'd be more inclined to use natural order here but ignore them in sorting. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:18:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: Database indexing Sorry to weigh in late, but this was a busy weekend, and the posting regarding database indexing covered the questions very well. I would add that there is no software requirement when freelance database indexing *at home* if you are working on periodicals for inclusion in an existing database, other than a word processing package that you are comfortable with and that can save your file in ASCII format. The database producers all have their own database software, and saving your work as a text-only file makes the upload at their end easier. As for the regularity of work, I'll use two real life examples. #1 - One of my contracts has, over the past few years, cut my "quota" of articles each year. The consistency of this contract is great, I get work shipped to me every two weeks and my paycheck arrives regularly as well. But, I've had to get work from other sources as the cutbacks impinged on my budget. #2 - I applied for and got a wonderful contract, and went through their training. The work dried up after 6 months, and I was told that their decision had to do with the amount of work they were getting in and improvements in their in-house staff, and had nothing to do with the quality of my work. Some contracts send work very regularly, and checks not so regularly. American Society for Information Science (ASIS), http://www.asis.org/ National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services (NFAIS) http://www.asis.org/ Shelley Greenhouse (a databasin' BOB?) greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:22:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: ASI board resignations (last gasp) One last gasp and then I'll be silent on this subject. To date (within the last month) 4 members have resigned from ASI's national board. Some (on and off this list) have suggested that I contact a national board member to talk to about my concerns and hopes for ASI, as well as the recent resignations, bylaws affecting replacements to the board, etc. I was doing exactly that. I would chat with Maria Coughlin about ASI national and local matters when I picked up freelance assignments. I just got a memo from Maria informing me that she, too, had resigned. So, I'll ask again, what is going on with the national leadership? Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:45:51 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) Shelly Greenhouse wrote: >>So, I'll ask again, what is going on with the national leadership?<< And why do you ask again? ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:47:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) Hi everyone, I was one of those Board members who recently resigned. In my case, it was due to health reasons which were complicated by work overload and too much volunteering with ASI (>25 hours per week! plus my full-time business where I worked a good 50 hours a week or more most of the time). No one questioned my decision or that of another Board member who resigned last year, either. Other Board members have stated that their reasons for resigning are due to work overload, family obligations, etc. You need to take those as the reasons and not try to read into this some profound problem with ASI national. The problem has more to do with the fact that time is a limited commodity for most indexers. ALL of the Board members are extremely busy with their businesses, families, Life, and so on. Again: Board members are not paid but rather are VOLUNTEERS. I would like to ask every ASI member to think about his or her current time crunch and then try to imagine what it would be like to add another 15 hours (at least) per week on top of work, family, friends, etc. I suspect that most people would say, "But I cannot possibly fit anything more in." Well, Board members are no different. It doesn't help to have all the constant chronic complaining that goes on, either, without any offers of assistance to go with the complaining. It is extremely demoralizing, discouraging, and flat out soul-wrenching to constantly have people complaining about everything. ASI is unique, I think, among professional organizations, since most of its members are freelancers without a day-to-day professional office culture to fall back on when things get hairy. ASI fills the role of professional colleagues on a daily basis as well as a traditional professional society. I belong to other professional societies and it wouldn't faze me a bit if the whole Board resigned in those. But because of the more personal nature of ASI, it seems to bother members when there are unexpected changes in the national leadership. One is naturally concerned. But there really is nothing to be concerned about. You may have noticed that most of the names in ASI positions tend to stay the same at all levels; few people have the energy and time to be deeply involved in ASI at any level, so those with the energy tend to take on more and more responsibility. If you want to help ASI, you would do better to contact Lori Lathrop--a marvelous, caring, kind person if ever there was one and the epitome of concerned leadership if I ever saw it--and tell her what you can do to help ASI. Negativity has no place at this time, so instead of complaining or wondering what is happening and talking about it negatively, do consider volunteering a few hours a week for ASI. If everyone did some small thing to take the load off of the Board and Lori and other overworked volunteers, well, who knows what ASI could do? My 2 cents plus some. At 01:22 PM 7/13/98 -0400, S. Greenhouse wrote: >One last gasp and then I'll be silent on this subject. To >date (within the last month) 4 members have resigned from >ASI's national board. Some (on and off this list) have >suggested that I contact a national board member to talk to >about my concerns and hopes for ASI, as well as the recent >resignations, bylaws affecting replacements to the board, >etc. I was doing exactly that. I would chat with Maria >Coughlin about ASI national and local matters when I picked >up freelance assignments. I just got a memo from Maria >informing me that she, too, had resigned. So, I'll ask >again, what is going on with the national leadership? > >Shelley Greenhouse >greenhou@erols.com > > ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:20 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) Cynthia Bertleson wrote: >>If you want to help ASI, you would do better to contact Lori Lathrop--a marvelous, caring, kind person if ever there was one and the epitome of concerned leadership if I ever saw it--and tell her what you can do to help ASI. Negativity has no place at this time, so instead of complaining or wondering what is happening and talking about it negatively, do consider volunteering a few hours a week for ASI. If everyone did some small thing to take the load off of the Board and Lori and other overworked volunteers, well, who knows what ASI could do?<< Well said, Cynthia. art ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eileen Lutzow Subject: Thanks RE: Database indexing Thanks to all those who responded on and offlist to my questions about database indexing! You have definitely provided food for thought. Eileen Lutzow Cataloger Charleston County Library Charleston, South Carolina, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:36:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Original Starling Post Hi, all - For those of you who have asked me to re-post my original Starling comment, here it is. It was part of a 4/22/96 posting on "See - See also - See under" usage. The entire posting is appended: Bob (Ol' Curmudgeon) Richardson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >OK, y'all - > >I hesitate to respond to this question, because writing to Index-L often is >like tossing a twig into a tree full of roosting starlings. In an instant, >the whole flock leaps into the air and the fluttering and twittering is >something to behold. > >Using xrefs to avoid double-posting in space-limited indexes is a fine idea. >This is how I deal with "See", "See also" and "See under" xrefs: > > 1. "See" cross-references are not tangential. They are >direct. They simply say: "If you want to find references to this topic, >this is not the term used in this index so you won't find them here. > Instead, go "See" So-and-So." For example: >- > Diamondbacks. See Rattlesnakes, diamondback > > 2. "See also" cross-references are tangential. They say: > "The information you want is here, but there also is related information >elsewhere, so in addition to this "See Also" So-and-So." For example: >- > Rattlesnakes, diamondback. See also Snakebite, incidents of > > 3. I use "See under" cross-references when the topic being >cross-referenced appears as a specific subheading under a different main >heading, rather than just appearing in a list of otherwise undifferentiated >subentries. For example: >- > Rattlesnakes. See under Pit vipers >- > Pit vipers > copperheads > copperhead sub1 > copperhead sub2 > etc. > rattlesnakes, diamondback > diamondback sub1 > diamondback sub2 > etc. > - >The difference, in my usage, between plain-vanilla "See" and "See under" >xrefs is that the "See" xref tells the reader that the term sought is not >used in the index, and to use the referenced term, while the "See under" xref >tells the reader that the term sought is a proper one and is used, but it >appears under a different main heading. > >Despite the importunings of the Orthodox, using this approach or >vilifying it will have negligible effect upon the rotation of the Earth or >the forward/backward march of history. A study presented in the ASI meeting >in D.C. pointed out that most college-level readers haven't the foggiest >notion of how to use an index anyway, and all our exquisite refinement and >Old-World craftsmanship might be more a case of our preaching, not to the >choir, but to an empty church. >- >But one of the truly wonderful things about freelance indexing is that we can >go ahead and do it as we see it, answering more to our own consciences, >aesthetics and sense of professional responsibility than is possible (I >suspect) for the majority of 9-to-5ers. >- >Bob Richardson > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:09:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) At 02:47 PM 7/13/1998 -0400, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >It doesn't help to have all the constant chronic complaining that goes on, >either, without any offers of assistance to go with the complaining. It is >extremely demoralizing, discouraging, and flat out soul-wrenching to >constantly have people complaining about everything. [Friendly snip...] >Negativity has no place at this time, so instead of >complaining or wondering what is happening and talking about it negatively, >do consider volunteering a few hours a week for ASI. If everyone did some >small thing to take the load off of the Board and Lori and other overworked >volunteers, well, who knows what ASI could do? It seems to me that this post gathers together several important threads on Index-L, in which many of us have participated over the past several months. I'd like to make a few comments, in the kindest way I know how. First, Cynthia, I completely understand your feelings and sympathize with the difficulties of being a major volunteer in an all-volunteer organization. I've been there and done that, and it's a tough job. It's because of my experience that I am careful and selective about my volunteer efforts...I want to do a good job, without getting overloaded, and I'd like to feel a sense of accomplishment when I'm done. I'd also like to express my sincere appreciation for your efforts, and the work of all the other volunteers who have made ASI the fine organization that it is today. You've all done a wonderful job. I have, in the past, been one of the "complainers" you mention above--specifically about the rather sorry state of the last edition of Indexer Services. I volunteered to help make it better...both here on the list, and in an email to Fred Leise, who is heading up this project. I had a positive response from Fred some months ago, but have heard nothing since. I wonder what is happening with that project, as the last issue is dated June 1997 and I've heard nothing about the annual update. I also wrote a long letter to accompany the survey taken in February, listing several other suggestions I had regarding Indexer Services and the ASI web site, and once again volunteering to work on any or all of them via whatever committees are involved. I received no response to that letter. Finally, I've supported raising dues sufficiently to cover more clerical help in the main office, so that requests from prospective clients and ASI members don't take so long to process. I realize we can't do it all on such a minimal amount of dues, and I believe that the all-volunteer situation burns out helpers much too fast. I'm willing to spend more of my money on a yearly basis, and volunteer my time to work toward bettering ASI for all involved...so I believe I can speak honestly and without any hypocrisy about the problems I've experienced and heard about here and elsewhere. There is a place for emailing ASI at the website, but there is no message board for members to interact with the board or with each other regarding ASI business. This is supposed to be in the works; I hope it happens soon. One of the ongoing disagreements we seem to have on Index-L is discussing ASI business here instead of elsewhere (especially complaints or concerns), when there really isn't any other more appropriate venue. I might add that ASI members need to visit the website regularly; new things get posted there, and many of us don't realize it until we read about it here on Index-L. That's how I happened to find out about the new insurance programs. Indexer Services really should be made available in a searchable electronic edition, and members should be able to type and edit their own listings directly (and thus be responsible for errors they make). This would really go a long way to eliminate mistakes created by having information transcribed by others, and we could cut way down on the number of paper copies we need to print and distribute. Publishers and others who use IS could be given a password to search the database of available indexers, and those of us who move or obtain a new email address could immediately update our listings. Many other important communications could be handled via the website as well, such as the indexer survey. I printed out a copy from the website in February, but was unable to fill it in online...which made it decidedly less easy and convenient to complete. It might even be possible to make substantial savings on postage and printing if we could vote for officers, renew our memberships, etc., online. I dare say that virtually all ASI members own and use computers and have access to email and the Web. I don't know a lot about the technical problems involved, but again, I'd be willing to help in any way possible to streamline this operation. It must be difficult, if not impossible, for a part-time clerical worker and an all-volunteer staff to do everything that is needed and be quick and accurate about it. More of us could and should offer to help out. BUT...if we can't discuss the problems and possible solutions without offending people, how can we work on solving them? And if Index-L isn't the appropriate place, let's make a spot on the ASI website to do it. I'm making these comments and suggestions with the best of intentions, and with absolutely no desire to offend our hard-working board. I welcome any feedback, and hope that this discussion may lead to improving communications between us all. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:26:55 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: "Will Grandpa's pacemaker stop on Jan. 2000?" I thought perhaps this article might reassure people a bit :-) (09/01/97) Computerworld Will Grandpa's pacemaker really stop on Jan. 2000?* Forrest Canon Don't show this article to your CEO. In a way, the recent spate of year 2000 scare stories has been a godsend for information systems shops trying to make headway on the problem. After all, even the most technophobic business executives have had their year 2000 consciousness raised, and that's good news when you're trying to chisel loose a few more dollars from the corporate budget. But the general media needs sexy stories to serve as its year 2000 hook. As a result, we've been treated to tales of missing pension checks, cars that won't start, handcuffs slapped on upstanding citizens who are shown to be 95 years in arrears on their mortgage payments, and on and on. Party poopers that we are, we looked into some of the most ballyhooed year 2000 horror stories to get the truth, not the hype. But there's no reason your CEO needs to know about this. WILL THE ATM EAT MY BANK CARD? WILL I HAVE ANY MONEY LEFT FOR IT TO EAT? The financial industry, highly dependent on date-sensitive transactions, is particularly vulnerable to year 2000 liability. So the Securities Industry Association in 1995 formed a year 2000 committee to coordinate the industry's year 2000 effort worldwide. Besides its massive technical task, the committee faces the difficulty of getting different segments of the industry to agree on how to carry out and prioritize activities. "You usually wind up with disagreements between participating firms, exchanges and utilities as to when and how you need to do things,'' according to Chairman Mike Tiernan. To help participants, the committee has developed tasks that must be completed by certain dates, and scorecards that follow the progress of each securities firm and bank. The areas considered top priority are trading that is done for customers and member firms, including exchanges, utilities, banks and depositories. How will they know if those areas are truly compliant? "We have scheduled an industrywide test in the beginning of 1999, which should assure us that the large banks, member firms, depositories and utilities do actually work in process transactions,'' Tiernan says. (The SIA ran a preliminary test today, June 13. There's an article about it at cnn.com) WILL AUNT MILLIE GET HER SOCIAL SECURITY CHECK? According to Cathy Adams, assistant deputy commissioner for systems at the Social Security Administration (SSA), Millie has nothing to worry about. "Our goal is to have all of our software and all of our systems certified by Dec. 31, 1998," Adams says. Easy to say, but what makes the SSA so confident? (Sure, President Clinton recently promised that federal systems would beat the year 2000 problem. But the very next day, the president claimed to have shot a 79 on a very difficult golf course. Pardon our skepticism.) Like many IS shops, the SSA is attacking the year 2000 problem through a combination of the windowing technique, in which all numbers above 50 are read as belonging to the current century and all numbers below 50 are understood to be in the next century; and date-field expansion, in which the existing two-digit date field is expanded to four digits. After the code is renovated, programs are put through regression testing to make sure functionality hasn't suffered. But the SSA has taken an additional step that may account for Adams' confidence. The administration has built a dedicated year 2000 test facility for what it calls Forward Year Integration Testing at SSA headquarters in Baltimore. The facility mirrors what production will look like beyond 2000. All vendor products and operating systems in the facility are year 2000-compliant, and the system date is made to look beyond the millennium and at leap years. The facility is used to certify internal software systems and vendor packages. "We run a lot of off-the-shelf packages, so we're running them through this test facility to make sure their claims of being compliant are true," Adams says. Only after a package makes it through Forward Year Integration Testing does the SSA certify it as year 2000-compliant. About 80% of the software the SSA is running has been renovated but hasn't gone through certification. "We are starting with our mission-critical software - the software that sends Social Security payments out, issues Social Security numbers and tracks the earnings of almost everyone in this country," Adams says. "The trick is to find everything." WILL MY AIRPLANE FALL FROM THE SKY? "It's so silly for people to think that the industry is so stupid that we are going to sit here and wait for our airplanes to fall out of the sky before we do something about it. Give me a break!" says Mary Jean Olsen, communications manager for engineering product development at The Boeing Co. in Seattle. Strong words. But those of us who may be cruising at 30,000 feet when the clock strikes midnight want more than words. Boeing got an early jump on the year 2000 problem in 1993 and found it needed to evaluate 165 million lines of code. The company was confident in its ability to conquer the problem because, as spokesman Paul Swortz says, "An airplane is a complex system, and making sure the 6 million pieces on a 747 are all there and functioning correctly is something we've been doing for a long time." Boeing has created a central organization (part of its Information and Support Services Division) to provide knowledge, guidelines and tools, including prequalified outsourcing resources. Actual analysis and repair is carried out on an individual project basis throughout the company. Since 1994, Boeing also has worked with its suppliers to analyze all flight-deck computer systems for the company's aircraft. "One of the first areas tackled was to make sure the onboard systems were going to be secure," Swortz says. None of the onboard systems analyzed so far has date-logic problems, he says. Boeing says it analyzed about 85% of its systems for year 2000 problems and has found nothing that would impact the safe operation of its airplanes. The company expected to complete its review by this month. OK, we're breathing easier about Boeing, which is far and away the world's largest builder of passenger aircraft. But the company's hard work won't do much good if the control tower goes black, will it? The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) says it's working with Boeing and avionics manufacturers to determine what equipment will be affected. However, there are no FAA regulatory mandates that specifically address year 2000 compliance. After avionics manufacturers change their onboard flight management systems to fix date-logic problems, the equipment must be tested and recertified by the FAA. The FAA is still assessing its own on-ground navigational air traffic control systems. The agency's approach is similar to Boeing's; it uses a central point of control, called the Office of Information Technology, to coordinate and disseminate information and to collect monthly status reports. Meanwhile, each of the FAA's seven major lines of business is responsible for producing its own year 2000 bug plan. The FAA's assessment will last until year's end; the renovation is scheduled to be complete by the end of next year. Then comes testing and implementation. A contingency plan will be developed for each system being renovated. Here's one bit of unqualified good news: "Our navigational beacons and the radars themselves do not appear to be date sensitive in the first place," says FAA spokesman Les Dorr. WILL THE ELEVATOR PLUNGE INTO THE BASEMENT? One often-repeated year 2000 horror story holds that on Jan. 1, 2000, the chips in elevators will think they are long overdue for required servicing and will either stop working altogether or, worse, give riders the Wile E. Coyote treatment. Never fear. Mike Jordan-Reilly, spokesman for Otis Elevator Co., says, "Our elevators do not depend on calendar-based data." Otis elevators monitor use, rather than dates, to determine when maintenance is necessary, Jordan-Reilly says. Phew! Feeling any better? You should, but just to hedge our bets, we leave you with the following: What does William Ulrich, a co-author of The Year 2000 Software Crisis and the president of methodology development company Tactical Strategy Group, Inc., plan to do late in 1999? "Frankly," he says, "I have to tell you that I am going to buy a generator." *No. Tell Gramps to relax. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:08:08 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: onsite Web indexing training in Sydney We are now offering onsite training in Sydney Australia to cater for those who prefer face to face Web indexing courses. Dwight Walker http://www.wwwalker.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:06:08 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Re: Genealogy indexes, need for Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > > > So why I am telling you all this? Since so many newbies want to know how to > gain indexing experience, might I suggest indexing town histories and other > related materials (local newspapers, etc.)? There are literally hundreds of > these that are not indexed. The tricky part, of course, is that many names > changed (i.e., in my family's case, the name "Brundage" is given as > "Brundage" but also as "Brundish"). Your chances of getting paid to do this > work would be slim, but it would be experience. In addition, you might meet > authors who are researching material for books that will need indexes. At > the very least, you may meet people who know people who are writing > books...You never know. Best of all (in my opinion!), you will be making > life easier for people looking for their family history. I'd like to second Cynthia's recommendation to beginners here. I am a beginner who just wrote the index for a local history/reminiscence (for nuthin' but fun and experience). The author (a local resident) listed every family that lived in the village and which house they lived in (1930-1950). I felt amazingly useful in doing this and I learned to use my new Cindex software to boot. Best of all, I can write "Thoughts of a Village Remembered" (1997) on my list of books indexed. I did name and subject indexes, but the name was more useful probably. Just make friends with your local librarian (hell, most of you are your local librarian) and get going. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:13:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) Sonsie wrote a long post, which I won't quote, but only mention two of her points: 1) that she has volunteered for projects, but never was contacted about helping, and 2) that some clerical help would be very helpful for the volunteers on the Board, and that it would be well worth an increase in dues to pay for such help. I, also, have been frustrated by no response to my offers to help, in ASI, and in other volunteer-managed organizations. I wonder if the harried volunteers at the top of the organization do not have the time to keep track of offers to help? Or is it just easier to fall into the "do it yourself" trap because people who offer their time may not be around long enough to seem worth contacting or "training"? Some orgaizations are not large enough to justify any hired help, but certainly ASI is? What is the total membership? Are we willing to "burn-out" our officers and board members with clerical work, or at the very least, take up their time which could otherwise be spent on more substantial items? (Sonsie's post has several excellent suggestions for consideration.) After I joined, I was surprised to realize that ASI was run wholly by volunteers and amazed that the organization could be run, newsletter published and convention scheduled by volunteer labor. "Some of these indexers must be real workaholics", I thought. IMHO, ASI needs to hire someone to help the volunteers, and I would not object to an increase in dues to accomplish this. *Perhaps* this person could also compile a list of people who are willing to help with certain projects and actually see that they are called upon, or at least informed why their offer to help has not been utilized. If hired help is not feasible, even on a part-time basis, perhaps a position (volunteer) of "volunteer coordinator" could be created to take advantage of members who can give a little time but cannot take on a formal position in the ASI organization. It seems to me that those who hold the offices take on "the whole ball of wax". If a volunteer coordinator could "push" using other members to them by setting up specific "live" volunteers for a specific job, would that be helpful? The workload could be spread between more people. The officers would not be run into the ground AND members would not end up saying, "Well, I offered to help a few times, but no one seems to want me." You know, I hadn't thought it through before, but as I wrote that last line, I realized that not having one's offer of help accepted *is* received as a rejection. No wonder members get prickly on this subject! When someone offers to help and gets no response, the message is, "We don't need you." Well, it's way past my bedtime. This is going out with no proofing or spell checking. Hey, if it makes *any* sense at this hour of the night ya'll are lucky! ;-) PS. I can officially use "ya'll". Not only was I born & raised in SC, but so were all my ancestors for the last 250 years or so. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:02:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) I don't know who to send this suggestion to, so I will post it here and I will it will get to the correct place. Cost has been one issue in hiring someone to help with the clerical work of ASI. I would like to offer one possible option and that is that the American Society for Information Science does provide contract services to other organizations such as membership, mailing etc. This might be an economical feasible solution for ASI as well as offering an organization that already has things like a membership database, staff familiar with a professional organization and an understanding of how an organization like ASI runs. The person to contact at ASIS is Dick Hill 301 495-0900, rhill@asis.org Just a thought. Roberta Horowitz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:49:41 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan MacDougall Subject: Survey responses summarised Many thanks for the 46 replies to an exploratory questionnaire on education and training for indexing. Here is a "quick and dirty" summary. I am not giving statistics and percentages here, but I think you can get an idea of proportions by looking at the raw numbers. Countries of respondents: USA: 33 UK: 5 Australia: 4 Canada: 2 New Zealand: 1 South Africa: 1 Question 1 ---------- The majority were back-of-book indexers: 38 Serial / journal indexers: 16 Database indexers: 10 Internet indexers: 3 Other: CD-ROM: 1, automatic indexing: 1, Thesaurus creation: 1 Question 2 ---------- Self taught: 27 University course: 9 Correspondence course: 13 Short course: 5 On the job training/apprenticeship/mentorship: 12 Back of book indexers were more likely to be self-taught and come from a writing / editing publishing background; database indexers tended to have a librarianship background. Question 3: Tertiary courses have sufficient indexing content ---------- Yes: 5 No: 6 Don't know 35 (A difficult question. "Indexing" means different things to different people and needs tighter definition. In fact, in its broadest sense, "indexing" is a generic term permeating various things that librarians do: reference work - using printed indexes; database construction, database indexing; online retrieval; cataloguing; classification, even if they rarely incorporate BOB indexing in courses. It is my contention that cataloguing is a type of indexing - the traditional library catalogue is a stock inventory with author / title / subject access.) Question 4: Level of indexing instruction in tertiary courses ---------- Introductory: 12 Some: 9 Substantial: 3 Don't know 19 (Again, some people thought "Introductory" and "Some" were too close in meaning. Respondents who had not learned indexing at university could not know what was taught there.) Question 5: (Comments) ---------- Several respondents stressed the importance of practical work, of learning through DOING. Back of book indexers were more likely to think that theoretical training was not very important. Some mentioned various text books and Index_L as good sources of learning how to index. Particular courses received comments and criticisms, sometimes to do with the attitude of the instructor; the USDA had generally good critiques, with some suggestions for updating content. Some commented on the difficulty of finding courses, one mentioning difficulties for people in rural areas. Cheers, Susan MacDougall """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS Indexer/librarian Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:56:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) I've just realized that I sent this only to Art Elser when I also intende= d to send it to the list. Christine = ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: Christine Shuttleworth, 106234,1745 TO: INTERNET:aelser@uswest.com, INTERNET:aelser@uswest.com DATE: 13/07/98 20:10 RE: Copy of: Re: ASI board resignations (last gasp) Art Elser wrote, quoting Cynthia Bertelsen: >>If you want to help ASI, you would do better to contact Lori Lathrop--a marvelous, caring, kind person if ever there was one and the epitome of concerned leadership if I ever saw it--and tell her what you can do to help ASI. Negativity has no place at this time, so instead of complaining or wondering what is happening and talking about it negatively, do consider volunteering a few hours a week for ASI. If everyone did some small thing to take the load off of the Board and Lori and other overworked volunteers, well, who knows what ASI could do?<< Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: CALL FOR PROPOSALS All -- The Call for Proposals for ASI's 31st Annual Conference, scheduled for June 9-13 at the Crowne Plaza Union Station in Indianapolis, is now on the ASI Web site (http://www.ASIndexing.org). Lori *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com President - 1998-1999, American Society of Indexers Lathrop Media Services, 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 / Phone: 704-531-0021 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:49:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: (ASI members) Science and medicine special interest group The Science and Medicine Special Interest Group (SIG) is now accepting memberships for the 1998-1999 year. The mission of the SIG is to act as a marketing cooperative and to improve communication between those indexing scientific/medical texts. The dues for the 1998-1999 year will be $25.00 for more information and a membership form, contact Shughes512@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:59:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Database indexing I gave a talk at a preconference session when the annual ASI meeting was in Washington D.C. The talk concerned my experiences working for a contractor who was working for Engineering Information, a major scientific database and more or less the engineering equivalent of Chem Abstracts; and my misadventures after EI canned the contractor I was working for. Here in a nutshell was my conclusion: If you're a full-time freelancer, supporting yourself on a regular basis doing database indexing is very difficult if not impossible. Caveats include the following: there are some great in-house gigs primarily in NYC and Wash D.C. if you can get them, and if you look really hard and get really lucky, and particularly if you live in certain proscribed areas [Wash DC or Oak Ridge Tenn for example], there is a smattering of freelance work available. However smattering bits of work don't support full-time freelancers, thus my statement above. Simply put, books produced each year needing BOB indexes are more numerous than all the stars in the heavens; which is why I'm now a BOB indexer! On the other hand, before the Internet, there were at most several dozen potential sources of database indexing work; stretching the definition of several a bit I would have guessed perhaps 50-100 total. Of these perhaps only about a third are of any significant size to generate much work; the rest are interesting but tiny little databases done by professional societies, etc.. Now the situation may have changed with Internet databases; I can't comment on that. Of these 50-100 sources the list gets whittled very fast: 1) "Sorry we use in-house staff." 2) "Sorry we use retired research fellows who do it free for us." 2) "Sorry if you lived in Oak Ridge you could do some work for the DOE database." 4) and finally, "We pay $1/article. You interesed? We could get you at least 50-100 per month to do." For any freelance work you are able to get you must realize that the odds it will still be flowing in 2-3 years are not good. [most of rest self-censored] Then you're out of work even though they'll tell you they loved your work. It was in just such a situation that I discovered BOB indexing, and I've never looked back.... Hope this is not too much reality check for you. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:36:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Irv Hershman Subject: Re: (ASI members) Science and medicine special interest group I would like more information about this SIG group. Irv Hershman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: Database indexing I agree with Kevin Mulrooney's comments regarding the reliability of database indexing and the ability to support oneself solely by database indexing, with the following exceptions: I have dione database indexing for the past 8 years, and have had one contract continuously during that time (but they have cut back my quota in recent years; on the other hand, I am one of their most experienced indexers now, and I get to participate in new ventures, as a beta-tester, and I get respect from my editor!). The more in-depth you index the article, the more you get paid per article. I've been paid (from different database producers) as little as $1.25/article to as much as $8/article. There is one big steady employer of freelance database indexers - NLM and MeSH indexing - but that's medical indexing only. You can work half to full time, and the work is steady and can be long term. BUT you must give up at least 6-8 weeks of your regular life for the training. Two weeks full time for the training, and the rest for heavy editing and learning (this might be open for discussion if you live in the Washington DC area and can go to NLM regularly for feedback). You do not have to live in the Washington DC area to work after the training session is over. The contractors may support your once-yearly visit to NLM for orientation when the new MeSHs come out. I am earning a supplemental income - My husband works full time with benefits so lots of the concerns a fully self-emoloyed freelancer might have are eliminated. Still, I count on being able to earn a decent supplemental income at home, until it's time to turn my paycheck into college tuition. I only recently started looking at BOB indexing as a way of increasing my skills, and earning a bit more once in a while. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:54:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Newman Subject: Software I am new to this list, so please forgive me if this question has been rehashed many times. Could any of you suggest software appropriate for indexing a small local newspaper? Would this same software be recommended for indexing a genealogical/remembrance type of book? Thanks. Susan Newman, Reference Librarian Mississippi College Library P.O. Box 127 Clinton, MS 39060 601-925-3279 601-925-3435 (fax) newman@mc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:01:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Database indexing At 11:36 AM 7/14/98 -0400, you wrote: I agree with Kevin Mulrooney's comments regarding the reliability of database indexing and the ability to support oneself solely by database indexing, with the following exceptions: Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com Both Kevin and Shelley are correct that the problem is more likely the number of database producers available and that a majority of indexing is done inhouse. I am actually employed by one company but telecommute so it is the best of both worlds. With the improvements in computer technology, the opportunities for telecommuting will probably increase and open the field up. As mentioned in a previous post, the controlled vocabularies and other conventions probably work against freelancers. Roberta ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:57:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Cline Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com:80) Subject: Re: (ASI members) Science and medicine special interest group I am not yet a member of ASI, but plan to be soon and I woul dbe interested in any information that you have about the Science/Medicine SIG. Thanks Melanie Cline melanie.cline@mailcity.com Now MailCity offers forwarding so you can check your MailCity messages and other e-mail all in one place. Go to http://www.mailcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:56:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stellindex@AOL.COM Subject: new subscriber I'm just starting out in indexing and will be buying some software. Which is the best for a good price? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:48:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Celia McCoy Subject: question for medical indexers/editors In-Reply-To: <199807141558.LAA04439@infobahn.icubed.com> Have you seen the term (omega)-Agatoxin IVA? Is this a trademarked product, or should Agatoxin be lower cased? Thanks in advance for a speedy reply! Celia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:11:34 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Re: question for medical indexers/editors This is a funnel web spider (Agelenopsis aperta) toxin. It is not a trademark name. It appears in the National Library of Medicine's supplementary chemical file as omega-agatoxin IVA (ie, no upper case for the a of agatoxin). Hope this helps Sandra Henderson National Library of Australia > ---------- > From: Celia McCoy[SMTP:celiam@SGI.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 10:48 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: question for medical indexers/editors > > Have you seen the term (omega)-Agatoxin IVA? Is this a trademarked > product, > or should Agatoxin be lower cased? Thanks in advance for a speedy reply! > > Celia > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:26:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: answering machines Does anybody have a recommendation for a recent-model simple answering machine? I don't need anything really fancy--something that will be audible, have room for a long greeting and long messages, and allow me to pick up my calls from a remote location. I don't need one that includes a phone, loudspeaker or any of the other extras I keep hearing about. My current one is becoming unreliable, and, having had my head in the sand for months, I'm about to go away on vacation. I'm hoping to just go buy one, and I'm worried that they cost an arm and a leg... All quick suggestions much appreciated!! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:40:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: answering machines In-Reply-To: <5c2b175f.35ac052d@aol.com> If you have Call Answering in your area I recommend that! It will answer even if you're on the phone or on line. It has 2 drawbacks, well, three. One is it costs around $3/per month. And you can't pick up to get the call once it's gone into Call Anwering, and also, you can't screen calls with it. However, it will save calls, and you can get your calls from anywhere, and delete some or none or save. It only saves for about a week, but why would you want to save for longer than that, anyway? You can also have multiple mail boxes (press 1 for Do Mi, press 2 for Indexers R Us, etc.) Oh, and you do have to pick up msgs regularly or it will fill up, but so would a machine, and with a machine, you can't selectively save some and delete others. I like it a lot because I don't have to worry about missing calls, and I have call waiting anyway, which I can ignore if I want, because I know Call Answering will pick up. I guess you have to weigh the advantagess and disadvantages. Plus, it's trustworthy, and best of all, the cats can't step on the Play or Erase buttons. I was having to keep my machine in a drawer. Finally the belt went on it and I just decided to go for C.A. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:40:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: answering machines Do Mi, I gave up on Radio Shack tape machines last summer when I had to make 3 trips to get one home that worked with or without new microtapes. Bought a Panasonic digital machine that does what you want for ca $40 and hasn't broken down yet. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:58:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: answering machines DoMi, Ditto to Rachel's advice re US West Call Messaging service instead of answering machine. My service seems to have slightly different features and options, but the major advantage is still there -- that you can get your messages from anywhere, any remote location. If you want to check messages while you're away, it always works. Supposedly you can retrieve messages remotely from an answering machine, too, but I could never get mine to work right on that score. This is an advantage I can't live without. I would never have an answering machine again. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:02:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: question for medical indexers/editors Hi Celia You might want to check out Medline at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/medline.html Type in agatoxin and select Title word (from field box) and that will retrieve 28 articles. This is a calcium channel blocker and it looks like it a tradename, though from the articles it is hard to tell how it is capitalized. Roberta Horowitz At 08:48 PM 7/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >Have you seen the term (omega)-Agatoxin IVA? Is this a trademarked product, >or should Agatoxin be lower cased? Thanks in advance for a speedy reply! > >Celia > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:47:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: new subscriber On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:56:20 EDT Stellindex@AOL.COM writes: >I'm just starting out in indexing and will be buying some software. >Which is >the best for a good price? > Cindex, Macrex, and Sky Index Pro are the three top end professional programs. Each costs about $525 and each has a loyal following. Choosing between them depends on what user interface you like the best. Check out their web sites (I think the ASI home page can direct you to them) and take your pick! (Less expensive programs can also be found; again, look for information from ASI) - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:42:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: answering machines I bought an AT&T Lucent Technologies (model 1715) digital machine before I went on vacation. It has no individual message length limit, and can hold about 14 messages. The remote access worked like a charm, and the sound quality is quite good. It also has a clock, so you know what time the call came in. I got mine at Walmart for about $39; I've seen it advertised for about that amount in many other places. I don't have problematic cats, but my three kids haven't figured out how to erase anything (neither has my husband)! -Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:26:04 EDT DStaub11@AOL.COM writes: >Does anybody have a recommendation for a recent-model simple answering >machine? I don't need anything really fancy--something that will be >audible, >have room for a long greeting and long messages, and allow me to pick >up my >calls from a remote location. I don't need one that includes a phone, >loudspeaker or any of the other extras I keep hearing about. My >current one is >becoming unreliable, and, having had my head in the sand for months, >I'm about >to go away on vacation. I'm hoping to just go buy one, and I'm worried >that >they cost an arm and a leg... All quick suggestions much appreciated!! > >Do Mi > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:58:22 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: answering machines I use a voice messaging service for my business, for all the reasons mentioned. But I kept an answering machine at home for a long time, because it served one purpose that voice messaging could not replace. I used to call home during storms to check on the power. If the answering machine picked up, everything was OK; if not, I had about an hour to get home and fire up the generator for the sump pump to keep the basement from flooding! --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ==============================