From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 2-JUL-1998 04:58:47.43 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9806D" Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 04:57:49 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9806D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:59:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: CFP Chat Announcement Hi, For all you newbies and folks trying to decide what kind of the various indexing software to get that CFP is sponsoring a Q&A chat hosted by Kamm Y. Schreine of Sky Software. Please send all questions you would like to present to the hosts to: consortims@aol.com. The narrator will ask your questions and if time allows, we will have an open floor discussion. For the full schedule see the Calendar of Events at the CFP web site: http://members.aol.com/consortims. Other topics that are in the process of being scheduled are: Mentoring Embedded Indexing Writing for Indexers Web Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:03:10 -0700 Reply-To: jthomas3@csulb.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Organization: California State University Long Beach, Library Subject: Re: Festschrift "Festschift" is used to mean a collection of essays written in honor of someone. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Powers Subject: question Hi! I am indexing an manual. I was wondering about the correct way to do this: payment scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, scheduled payement processing scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See alsopayment, scheduled I am totally new at this and would appreicate some direction. Thanks!!! Karen Powers kpowers@ARKSYS.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:23:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <199806231311.GAA00229@powergrid.electriciti.com> At 07:54 AM 6/23/98 -0500, Karen asked about: >payment > scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, > scheduled payement > >processing > scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See alsopayment, > scheduled Which, given the ability (space/lines) to double post, looks absolutely fine to me and the assumption that the odd page ordering might be typos. IF 2, 5, 22 are in chapter 1, I would have as 1-1, 1-2, 1-5, 1-22, 4-4, 4-7, 4-11, 4-15. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:37:22 -0500 Reply-To: rumpergj@jmu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rumper, Gail J" Subject: thanks to all; more questions Thanks to everybody who has responded to my plea for help. I have already taken advantage of a lot of your suggestions and advice. One of the best pieces of advice I received was to continue to ask questions at Index-L. So I am going to do so under the premise that there's no such thing as a dumb question! I have on order Nancy Mulvany's book, as well as the CMS, which should arrive in a couple more days (any other sources I should be aware of?). Meanwhile, I've continued to study the materials I do have. Keeping in mind that I'm learning about indexing from scratch and, so far, completely on my own, I'm running into the problem of being overwhelmed with so much information and so much to learn in such a short time. I know that there are probably no shortcuts to this, but does anyone have any thoughts on what concepts, methods, practices, formats, standards, etc. that I should be concentrating on? What questions should I be asking of the author? (I should receive a copy of her book by the end of this week.) Also, I may be in the position to purchase software (I have access to a computer at work which I can use anytime), and while I've heard of Cindex and Skyindex, I'm not sure what is best at what price - any recommendations or suggestions? By the way, another piece of advice I'm following is to settle the issue of payment with the author (she had suggested that I not get paid since I'm learning). We are currently negotiating compensation which will probably consist of a nominal fee and a copy of the finished book. Again, I appreciate all your help :-)! Gail rumpergj@jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:51:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: thanks to all; more questions On 6/23/98 9:37 Rumper, Gail J wrote (in part): >I know that there are probably >no shortcuts to this, but does anyone have any thoughts on >what concepts, methods, practices, formats, standards, etc. >that I should be concentrating on? Become an avid reader of indexes. Browse the stacks comparing indexes of similar books. Studying indexes is the closest I think you will come to a learning shortcut. If you read this list long enough or talk to enough indexers I believe you'll find that when we pick up a new book we immediately turn to the back. Of course, that's not the only thing you should do. You really need to absorb the material you have ordered when it arrives. Best, Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:06:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: 'nother question In-Reply-To: <199806231311.GAA00229@powergrid.electriciti.com> At 07:54 AM 6/23/98 -0500, Karen asked about: >payment > scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, > scheduled payement > >processing > scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See alsopayment, > scheduled > I initially wondered about wording I have been increasingly been using (client like: so I may have an answer) and wanted to check with the list. More and more, I have been cross referencing as See also scheduled payment under processing or See also scheduled under payment. At worst I can't check for circular entries in Cindex 6.1 for DOS (or am too dumb to figure out a work-around). The major advantage is that users are given a specific pointer. What do others think? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:12:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: 'nother question I think you would have at least a few customers who would be looking for the main heading SCHEDULED PAYMENT UNDER PROCESSING, and wondering why you sent them someplace that doesn't exist! :-) Presumably, if they are under SCHEDULED PAYMENT and are referred out to PROCESSING, when they get to PROCESSING they will automatically look first under the subheading "scheduled payment." The problem is when there is no subheading "scheduled payment." That's why we have to be careful to check subheadings under main headings. -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pam Rider [SMTP:prider@ELECTRICITI.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 10:06 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: 'nother question > > At 07:54 AM 6/23/98 -0500, Karen asked about: > > >payment > > scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, > > scheduled payement > > > >processing > > scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See alsopayment, > > scheduled > > > I initially wondered about wording I have been increasingly been using > (client like: so I may have an answer) and wanted to check with the list. > > More and more, I have been cross referencing as > > See also scheduled payment under processing > > or > > See also scheduled under payment. > > At worst I can't check for circular entries in Cindex 6.1 for DOS (or am > too dumb to figure out a work-around). > > The major advantage is that users are given a specific pointer. > > What do others think? > Pam Rider > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:46:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan Duhon, IU Axolotl Colony" Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <199806231307.IAA22410@indiana.edu> On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Karen Powers wrote: > Hi! > > I am indexing an manual. I was wondering about the correct way to do this: > > > payment > scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, > scheduled payement > > processing > scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See alsopayment, > scheduled > > > I am totally new at this and would appreicate some direction. I don't see any reason for the cross-ref because no new information is found at the other location. Having two entries is fine, but why send the person to the second entry when there is nothing more to be found? Susan Duhon ______________________________________________________________ Susan T. Duhon Indiana University Axolotl Colony Phone 812-855-8260 Jordan Hall 407 Fax 812-855-6705 Bloomington, IN 47405 USA email duhon@indiana.edu http://www.indiana.edu/~axolotl/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:49:51 -0400 Reply-To: dbrenner@javanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: question > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Karen Powers wrote: > > > Hi! > > > > I am indexing an manual. I was wondering about the correct way to do this: > > > > > > payment > > scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, > > scheduled payement > > > > processing > > scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See alsopayment, > > scheduled I agree with Susan Duhon. If I ahd the room, I'd double-post, but NOT with "see also" unless there was some additional information at the different sites. Diane Diane Brenner,Indexing Services P.O. Box 206 Worthingtpon, MA 01098 413-238-5593 dbrenner@javanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:37:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Powers Subject: Thank you!! I really want to thank everyone who has given me advice! I really appreciate it and it has been a tremendous help! Thanks again, Karen Powers kpowers@ARKSYS.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:06:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <199806231307.GAA13183@smtp1.teleport.com> >I am indexing an manual. I was wondering about the correct way to do this: > >payment > scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, > scheduled payement > >processing > scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also payment, > scheduled I might suggest that if you double-post, you don't need the cross references because you would be sending the reader to information they already have in the first entry. Or if you cross-reference, don't repeat the locators. Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:38:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: question In my opinion, no See also reference is warranted because no new information occurs at either entry. Both entries are justified in their own right. If you need to cut the length of the final index, you could remove the locators from one entry and replace them with See [the other] entry. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:05:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: locators and footnotes In-Reply-To: <199805180847.BAA27671@neti.saber.net> I could use some clarification here: What is the proper sequence of locators when there is a set of locators noting a continuous discussion and a footnote on the first page (locator) in the sequence of locators indicating the continuous discussion? For example: travel accident insurance, 7-8, 7n, 12, 12n, 23 OR travel accident insurance, 7n, 7-8, 12, 12n, 23 It looks odd to me to have the 7n coming after the 8--? And, does anyone know where this is discussed in Mulvany or Chicago Press? TYIA Naomi PS Yes, if this looks familiar it is Lesson 5 in the USDA course! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:31:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: locators and footnotes Naomi, IMHO as a lurker and index user...I would expect to search a whole page, footnotes included, for anything referenced with locator to that page or page range. Seeing extra 'tags' on a locator seems more confusing than helpful. FWIW, Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:52:05 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Proper Names Hi everyone, I am indexing a book about geology. I have to make an entry of 3 proper names which are somewhat similar. The problem is all 3 of them are on the same page.I have 2 choices, Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics at Munster, Germany, 132 Institute of Geophysics in Warsaw, 132 Institute of Geophysics in Kiel, West Germany, 132 The other choice is..... Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Germany), 132 Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 Institute of Geophysics (West Germany), 132 I prefer the 2nd choice. So what is the opinion of experienced indexers? BTW, the publisher does NOT have any preference. Thanks a lot. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services Sahai-Co@msn.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:57:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Schultz, Darrel" Subject: Re: Proper Names Here's my solution: Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics, 132 Institute of Geophysics (Poland), 132 Institute of Geophysics (Germany), 132 > -----Original Message----- > From: Manjit Sahai [SMTP:ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 12:52 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Proper Names > > Hi everyone, > > I am indexing a book about geology. I have to make an entry of 3 proper > names which are somewhat similar. The problem is all 3 of them are on > the same page.I have 2 choices, > > Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics at Munster, Germany, 132 > > Institute of Geophysics in Warsaw, 132 > > Institute of Geophysics in Kiel, West Germany, 132 > The other choice is..... > > Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Germany), 132 > Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 > Institute of Geophysics (West Germany), 132 > > I prefer the 2nd choice. So what is the opinion of experienced indexers? > BTW, the publisher does NOT have any preference. > > Thanks a lot. > > Manjit K. Sahai > RAM Indexing Services > Sahai-Co@msn.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:02:10 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Proper Names Manjit Sahai gave two choices: >Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics at Munster, Germany, 132 >Institute of Geophysics in Warsaw, 132 >Institute of Geophysics in Kiel, West Germany, 132 or >Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Germany), 132 >Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 >Institute of Geophysics (West Germany), 132 There is a third choice: >Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw, Poland), 132 >Institute of Geophysics (Kiel, Germany), 132 >Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Munster, Germany), 132 and a fourth: >Institute of Geophysics (Poland), 132 >Institute of Geophysics (Germany), 132 >Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Germany), 132 and a fifth: >Institute of Geophysics (Poland), 132 >Institute of Geophysics (Germany), 132 >Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics,132 If the book mentions a lot of institutes with similar names all over the world, then you probably need the country with each one. You definitely need it to distinguish the first two. The level of detail with which you distinguish them is up to you, but I would try to make it as simple as possible. By the way, I don't know if the book is historical, in which case you do need to keep the West Germany entry (but the other should be qualified as well). Good luck! Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:55:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: locators and footnotes At 11:05 AM 6/23/1998 +0100, J. Naomi Linzer wrote: >What is the proper sequence of locators when there is a set of locators >noting a continuous discussion and a footnote on the first page (locator) >in the sequence of locators indicating the continuous discussion? For >example: > > travel accident insurance, 7-8, 7n, 12, 12n, 23 This is how I do it (above). The main page reference comes before any additional page reference in my system. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:05:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: locators and footnotes I would disagree. If the location is a footnote, I would want to know right off the bat. Saves alot of time. IMHO. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Nancy Noyes [SMTP:AllWriteN@AOL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 7:32 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: locators and footnotes > > Naomi, > > IMHO as a lurker and index user...I would expect to search a whole > page, > footnotes included, for anything referenced with locator to that page > or page > range. Seeing extra 'tags' on a locator seems more confusing than > helpful. > > FWIW, > > Nancy Noyes > All Write ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:55:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: locators and footnotes At 02:31 PM 6/23/1998 EDT, Nancy Noyes wrote: >IMHO as a lurker and index user...I would expect to search a whole page, >footnotes included, for anything referenced with locator to that page or page >range. Seeing extra 'tags' on a locator seems more confusing than helpful. Nancy, I always include a short headnote for my indexes if any special locator tags are used. I try not to use them except where they're really necessary. It seems to me that MOST (not all) people would not look in footnotes, for example, to find a reference. That's why, when I do index footnotes, I use the "n" tag to indicate the material is in a note. I also will use italics or underlining or even bold to indicate material that is part of a caption or within a table or chart...if the material warrants that kind of special treatment. It's always good to hear from index users, though. Sometimes we get so immersed in doing the work that we don't always remember to look at things from the user's perspective. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: mountains and montes Looking for opinions. Working on a text with many place names. I was given a list of these (both typed and on disk). The Italian mountains are represented in the typed list in either of two forms: Maggio (Monte) or Monte Sabotino Most of the non-Italian names are in the form: Olympus (Mount) Does it make sense to stay with "Maggio (Monte)"? (The text, of course always lists "Mount" or "Monte" first.) TIA, Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:32:29 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: locators and footnotes This situation is discussed in Chicago on page 520 (section 18.26). Notes which "merely document statements in the text should not be indexed." Also, "If there is indexable material in a text passage and in a note on the same page which is not tied to that passage, separate references may be given: 63, 63n." So, the answer to your footnote question concerns not just format, but also content. Reading the entire 18.26 section should clarify footnote treatment. Sylvia Coates J. Naomi Linzer wrote: > I could use some clarification here: > > What is the proper sequence of locators when there is a set of locators > noting a continuous discussion and a footnote on the first page (locator) > in the sequence of locators indicating the continuous discussion? For > example: > > travel accident insurance, 7-8, 7n, 12, 12n, 23 > > OR > > travel accident insurance, 7n, 7-8, 12, 12n, 23 > > It looks odd to me to have the 7n coming after the 8--? > > And, does anyone know where this is discussed in Mulvany or Chicago Press? > > TYIA > Naomi > > PS Yes, if this looks familiar it is Lesson 5 in the USDA course! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:35:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: mountains and montes In-Reply-To: <199806232118.RAA22703@mail1.bellsouth.net> The last book I did (an economic geography) that had a lot of mountains (and lakes, ftm) in it, I personally lumped them all together by listing them under "Mountains: [followed by sub] Pikes Peak, Surabachi, Whatever". Same with lakes. Among other things, it took care of non-English names, names in which "Mountain" came last, and names like "Pike's Peak," which didn't include it at all. And then I put a headnote on the first page of the index, explaining where those names were. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Craig Brown > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 4:20 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: mountains and montes > > > Looking for opinions. Working on a text with many place names. I was > given a list of these (both typed and on disk). The Italian mountains > are represented in the typed list in either of two forms: > > Maggio (Monte) > > or > > Monte Sabotino > > Most of the non-Italian names are in the form: > > Olympus (Mount) > > Does it make sense to stay with "Maggio (Monte)"? > > (The text, of course always lists "Mount" or "Monte" first.) > > TIA, > Craig Brown > > ========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword > ========================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:52:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth SanMiguel Subject: USDA courses I joined this list about a week ago and this is my first post to a list, ever. I keep reading about a USDA indexing course. Is that for United States Department of Agriculture or am I being really dense? If it is, why would the USDA have an indexing course? Where did you find out about it in the first place? I just have to know so any light shed on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Elizabeth ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:09:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: locators and footnotes Sonsie, The italics WOULD be something I would understand as being other than straight text. You can see why I've delayed doing more than lurking at this point . Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:11:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: locators and footnotes Nancy wrote: << IMHO as a lurker and index user...I would expect to search a whole page, footnotes included, for anything referenced with locator to that page or page range. Seeing extra 'tags' on a locator seems more confusing than helpful. >> I often agree. But in many (most?) cases, the publisher decides this is what they want. Then we're still left with deciding what order to put the page references in... It's another one of those "no good answer" cases, but I would be inclined to put the "7n" after the "7-8" --the logic being that the annotation should go after the "regular" pages. A fine argument could be made for the other way. You could also just make your publisher decide. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:13:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Proper Names Manjit wrote: << Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics at Munster, Germany, 132 Institute of Geophysics in Warsaw, 132 Institute of Geophysics in Kiel, West Germany, 132 The other choice is..... Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Germany), 132 Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 Institute of Geophysics (West Germany), 132 >> I prefer the second choice, but I would make cities/countries consistent, and specify which Germany in the first entry if using countries. Probably cities, though (especially if you don't know which Germany the first one's in :-) ): Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Munster), 132 Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 Institute of Geophysics (Kiel), 132 >> Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:27:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tina Abbott Subject: Re: Commonplace books (Was: Blank "index" books, uses of) In-Reply-To: <199806051425.HAA31220@mxu2.u.washington.edu> In Seattle a store called Anthropologie has blank books with numbered pages for sale. I believe this is what this original discussion was about. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:28:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Proper Names I thought there was just one Germany now? Enlightenment is always welcome :-o A bit off topic but would appreciate it if someone could tell me why I don't see my own posts. TIA Toni whose opinions are her own. > -----Original Message----- > From: DStaub11@AOL.COM [SMTP:DStaub11@AOL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 11:14 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Proper Names > >I prefer the second choice, but I would make cities/countries consistent, and >specify which Germany in the first entry if using countries. Probably cities, >though (especially if you don't know which Germany the first one's in :-) ): > Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Munster), 132 > Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 > Institute of Geophysics (Kiel), 132 >> > > Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:26:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emma Hunt Subject: Infornation on Indexing All right, call me a grouchy old curmudgeon---it's probably true. But I am constantly amazed at the people who have just "discovered" indexing and index-l, and want to be spoon-fed more information about indexing. Don't they know how to use search engines? Haven't they ever done research? How are they going to be able to find information they need while indexing a book if they can't even find out anything about indexing? I just did a search, using two different engines, to see what I could find: searching for "usda indexing courses" yielded nothing, neither did "usda indexing". "Usda" was too broad. Then I tried "indexing", which was also too broad, at least on AltaVista. On AOL's Netfind (excite), "indexing" resulted in links to the ASI (American Society of Indexers) web site. Bingo! Using Altavista, I tried searching for "book indexing". This led to links to indexers' web sites (the link to Jan Wright's web page was outdated, sorry), which had links to the ASI web site. This process doesn't seem too difficult to me, and shouldn't be for people interested in indexing. There's plenty of information out there for people who care to look. Even just reading index-l for a week or two will give you links to relevant web sites. All right, I've grouched enough for todayl :-) Emma ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:28:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Garrett Subject: Re: USDA courses Elizabeth wrote: <> Yes, it is in reference to the US Department of Agriculture. The USDA offers many correspondence courses (indexing being one of them, as part of their editing certification program) as well as many on-site classes. They are very affordable, and encompass a HUGE variety of subjects ranging from accounting to meterology. Most of the classes are geared towards government employees wishing to continue their education, but all of the classes (correspondence and on-site) are open to anyone. They have a nice web page which is located at: http://grad.usda.gov/corres/corpro.html Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:26:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Garrett Subject: Re: Infornation on Indexing In a message dated 6/23/98 7:36:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Emma1113@aol.com writes: << All right, call me a grouchy old curmudgeon---it's probably true. But I am constantly amazed at the people who have just "discovered" indexing and index-l, and want to be spoon-fed more information about indexing. Don't they know how to use search engines? Haven't they ever done research? How are they going to be able to find information they need while indexing a book if they can't even find out anything about indexing? >> Wow, I have to tell you that that is the least supportive comment I've ever read in a newsgroup. For your information, there are plenty of us who "lurk" in this newsgroup specifically to gather information. And, yes, I know exactly how to do research, maybe even better than yourself, and yes, I have done searches on the topics you suggested, and found plenty of information on indexing. The one thing I didn't find, and the main reason I subscribed to this newsgroup, is how to go about learning HOW to index. That is the one thing NOT mentioned in most of the web sites I found. So please excuse me if I have offended any of you here with my questions about how to get started in the indexing field. According to this woman's comments, this newsgroup is not for us newcomers. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:12:34 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: USDA courses In-Reply-To: <199806232158.OAA15198@neti.saber.net> Yes, the United States Department of Agriculture has a wide range of courses in continuing education. I don't have their web-site handy but you may e-mail them at correspond@grad.usda.gov Naomi >I joined this list about a week ago and this is my first post to a list, >ever. I keep reading about a USDA indexing course. Is that for United >States Department of Agriculture or am I being really dense? If it is, >why would the USDA have an indexing course? Where did you find out about >it in the first place? I just have to know so any light shed on the >subject would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, > Elizabeth ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:19:51 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: locators and footnotes In-Reply-To: <199806232116.OAA12901@neti.saber.net> Nancy, I appreciate your simple solution which is just what I needed for this index to a brochure where it is quite easy to locate the footnote on the same page as the reference locator. Perhaps in a more dense text it would be helpful to add the additional locator indicating a footnote. So thanks, Sonsie, for your method when the situation calls for it. I also agree with your additional comment, Sonsie, below. After I read Nancy's response I realized I'd become lost in the woods and needed to hop out into the field for a better perspective. Naomi >At 02:31 PM 6/23/1998 EDT, Nancy Noyes wrote: > >>IMHO as a lurker and index user...I would expect to search a whole page, >>footnotes included, for anything referenced with locator to that page or page >>range. Seeing extra 'tags' on a locator seems more confusing than helpful. > >It's always good to hear from index users, though. Sometimes we get so >immersed in doing the work that we don't always remember to look at things >from the user's perspective. > > =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:23:22 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: locators and footnotes In-Reply-To: <199806232120.OAA13107@neti.saber.net> Whoops, do all indexers own the complete Chicago Manual of Style? I was just searching in the Indexes, Chapter 17 and could not find the reference. >This situation is discussed in Chicago on page 520 (section 18.26). Notes >which "merely document statements in the text should not be indexed." Also, >"If there is indexable material in a text passage and in a note on the same >page which is not tied to that passage, separate references may be given: 63, >63n." So, the answer to your footnote question concerns not just format, but >also content. Reading the entire 18.26 section should clarify footnote >treatment. > >Sylvia Coates > >J. Naomi Linzer wrote: > >> I could use some clarification here: >> >> What is the proper sequence of locators when there is a set of locators >> noting a continuous discussion and a footnote on the first page (locator) >> in the sequence of locators indicating the continuous discussion? For >> example: >> >> travel accident insurance, 7-8, 7n, 12, 12n, 23 >> >> OR >> >> travel accident insurance, 7n, 7-8, 12, 12n, 23 >> >> It looks odd to me to have the 7n coming after the 8--? >> >> And, does anyone know where this is discussed in Mulvany or Chicago Press? >> >> TYIA >> Naomi >> >> PS Yes, if this looks familiar it is Lesson 5 in the USDA course! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:01:07 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Proper Names In-Reply-To: <199806232230.PAA16803@neti.saber.net> Toni, If you don't have your settings for e-mail set at REPRO (copy of message sent to you) or ACK (your posting is acknowledged), you won't know if the message appeared or not. To do this, send a message to the listserver at LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (not the list!) as follows: SET INDEX-L ACK or SET INDEX-L REPRO Naomi >A bit off topic but would appreciate it if someone could tell me why I >don't see my own posts. TIA > >Toni >whose opinions are her own. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:04:14 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: more questions >From Christine Headley I would never have lasted more than one easy book as an indexer if I hadn't done a course. The practice one gets in exercises and the further information provided by the marker are invaluable. If you mean to do more than this one book, look into the USDA course. I haven't done it - I'm English - but it always gets good write-ups on Index-l. There are two distance-learning courses available in England, and I didn't do either of them, but I would never have been able to overcome the first major problem without having done the now-defunct course I did. I also wouldn't have lasted more than five minutes without my indexing program. I tried one of the exercises on my course using cards - and dropped them at a crucial moment. I have also recently helped an author finish off the index to his forthcoming book. I imagined that this would involve insights from the trade being passed across, but no. He wanted someone to type in entries as he read through proofs (which he had already corrected). Without starting again, there was no way of introducing the idea of subheadings... So I jumped around his Word file, trying to get everything in alphabetical order and the locators in number order. I look forward to reading the book in due course, but I wouldn't like to find any specific piece of information by reference to his index. It also enables you to charge an amount that reflects the amount of toil that goes into the work. They don't say 'pay peanuts and get monkeys' for no reason, though there are honourable exceptions. Gail presumably has good reasons for jumping in at the deep end without previous experience of swimming and the Index-L lifeguards are standing ready at the side of the pool, but some splashing about at the shallow end and a few sessions with a swimming teacher are normally strongly recommended. Good luck - you'll need it! Christine stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong Rumper, Gail J wrote: > > > I have on order Nancy Mulvany's book, as well as the CMS, > which should arrive in a couple more days (any other > sources I should be aware of?). Meanwhile, I've continued > to study the materials I do have. Keeping in mind that I'm > learning about indexing from scratch and, so far, > completely on my own, I'm running into the problem of > being overwhelmed with so much information and so much to > learn in such a short time. I know that there are probably > no shortcuts to this, but does anyone have any thoughts on > what concepts, methods, practices, formats, standards, etc. > that I should be concentrating on? What questions should I > be asking of the author? (I should receive a copy of her > book by the end of this week.) > > Also, I may be in the position to purchase software (I have > access to a computer at work which I can use anytime), and > while I've heard of Cindex and Skyindex, I'm not sure what > is best at what price - any recommendations or suggestions? > > By the way, another piece of advice I'm following is to > settle the issue of payment with the author (she had > suggested that I not get paid since I'm learning). We are > currently negotiating compensation which will probably > consist of a nominal fee and a copy of the finished book. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:56:16 -0700 Reply-To: thomasb@tp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tom Brown Subject: Re: locators and footnotes > >This situation is discussed in Chicago on page 520 (section 18.26). The reference 18.26 is for the 13th edition of _The Chicago Manual of Style_. The equivalent in the 14th edition is 17.28. (I own the complete 13th edition, but have only the USDA booklet _Indexes_ from the 14th.) ____ /om thomasb@tp.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:10:56 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emma Hunt Subject: Re: Infornation on Indexing In a message dated 6/23/98 5:44:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, FixUrTypo@aol.com writes: << Wow, I have to tell you that that is the least supportive comment I've ever read in a newsgroup. For your information, there are plenty of us who "lurk" in this newsgroup specifically to gather information. And, yes, I know exactly how to do research, maybe even better than yourself, and yes, I have done searches on the topics you suggested, and found plenty of information on indexing. The one thing I didn't find, and the main reason I subscribed to this newsgroup, is how to go about learning HOW to index. That is the one thing NOT mentioned in most of the web sites I found. So please excuse me if I have offended any of you here with my questions about how to get started in the indexing field. According to this woman's comments, this newsgroup is not for us newcomers. Barbara >> Barbara, I think you misunderstood me, or I did not make myself clear. If you are familiar with newsgroups, then you know that most of them have FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) lists. Why? Because people get tired of answering the same questions over and over. A FAQ answers the basic questions people ask who are new to a subject. FAQs are usually posted once a month or so, and "newbies" are often told to wait, observe, and read the FAQ before asking a question. The FAQ equivalent for index-l is the ASI web site: www.asindexing.org Certainly, index-l is a wonderful resource on "how to" index. People ask for help all the time and are usually inundated with expert information. Beginning indexers are encouraged to ask questions. It's just that after a while one gets tired of reading requests for information on the USDA course, where to get indexing software, what books are available, when a few minutes' search would reveal the information. I hope that clarifies my meaning. Emma ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:40:25 -0400 Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Organization: Broccoli Information Management Subject: Re: Infornation on Indexing Emma Hunt wrote: > Barbara, I think you misunderstood me, or I did not make myself clear. If you > are > familiar with newsgroups, then you know that most of them have FAQ > (Frequently Asked Questions) lists. Why? Because people get tired of answering > the same questions over and over. A FAQ answers the basic questions people > ask who are new to a subject. FAQs are usually posted once a month or so, and > "newbies" are often told to wait, observe, and read the FAQ before asking a > question. > The FAQ equivalent for index-l is the ASI web site: www.asindexing.org > > Certainly, index-l is a wonderful resource on "how to" index. People ask for > help all > the time and are usually inundated with expert information. Beginning indexers > are > encouraged to ask questions. It's just that after a while one gets tired of > reading > requests for information on the USDA course, where to get indexing software, > what books are available, when a few minutes' search would reveal the > information. > > I hope that clarifies my meaning. > > Emma A suggestion Emma- use your delete button when you find one of the posts doesn't interest you personally. It's a quick & easy way to avoid unwanted info while still allowing newcomers to feel at ease asking any question that they wish related to indexing. Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management brocindx@catskill.net http://www.bim.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:26:57 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Proper names Thanks to everyone who responded to my question regarding proper names. It sure helps to get opinions from lots of different indexers. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services Sahai-Co@msn.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:51:13 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: locators and footnotes I should have mentioned that I was referring to the Chicago 13th edition. Thank you for clarifying. Sylvia Coates Tom Brown wrote: > > >This situation is discussed in Chicago on page 520 (section 18.26). > > The reference 18.26 is for the 13th edition of _The Chicago Manual of > Style_. The equivalent in the 14th edition is 17.28. (I own the complete > 13th edition, but have only the USDA booklet _Indexes_ from the 14th.) > > ____ > /om thomasb@tp.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:51:46 +0400 Reply-To: Lee McKee Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee McKee Subject: Re: Infornation on Indexing On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 Emma Hunt wrote to Index-l: > FAQs are usually posted once a month or so, and "newbies" > are often told to wait, observe, and read the FAQ before asking a > question. The FAQ equivalent for index-l is the ASI web site: > www.asindexing.org > It's just that after a while one gets tired of reading > requests for information on when a few minutes' search > would reveal the information. I want to point out that there are still some people who have email who do NOT have WWW access and so cannot do a "few minutes' search". It would be helpful to give them an alternative way of accessing the FAQ via email, or to suggest books or ASI materials and how to get them by phone or mail. Does someone have a boilerplate email (a mini-FAQ) with this information that could be sent to newbies, maybe directly, so that we don't clutter up the list? Also, when citing WWW addresses, it is enormously helpful (especially when the URLs are very long) to preface the URL with http:// (or ftp:// or whatever). Many mail programs come with a utility that allows the user to extract the URL and conjure the browser, but only when the URL is so prefaced. Thanks, -- Lee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:27:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Infornation on Indexing, support for newbies In a message dated 98-06-23 19:35:49 EDT, you write: << call me a grouchy old curmudgeon---it's probably true. But I am constantly amazed at the people who have just "discovered" indexing and index-l, and want to be spoon-fed more information about indexing. >> Call me a "friendly young curmudgeon," but most indexers I have met love sharing information. Isn't that the essence of indexing--sharing information? One is always free to answer off the list. I recently edited a book in which the author and I recommended people investigating a profession first contact people in that profession. One method we suggested was to lurk on a list for a while and then ask questions. Those on this list have been pretty good lately about making sure the subject line actually describes the content of the message. Hit the delete key. It works for me. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:10:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emma Hunt Subject: Information on Indexing II I see that some people have been upset by my previous posts (althought some people have privately agreed with me). I was simply suggesting that newcomers do a little research first before asking questions. I have no intention of pursuing the matter further, and I certainly have no intention of "jumping all over" anyone who posts questions to index-l. In fact, I have no intention of posting anything again---I'm unsubscribing from the list. I've had my say. Regards, Emma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:49:44 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Tortora Subject: Re: Information on Indexing II In a message dated 6/24/98 2:14:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Emma1113@AOL.COM writes: << I have no intention of pursuing the matter further, and I certainly have no intention of "jumping all over" anyone who posts questions to index-l. In fact, I have no intention of posting anything again---I'm unsubscribing from the list. I've had my say. >> Emma, I would hate to see you unsubscribe over something so silly. Yes, as a former newcomer to indexing, I found your remarks a bit without patience, but you are entitled to you opinion. After all, isn't one of the purposes of the list to share opinions? I have enjoyed being a member of this list and have grown as an indexer because of people like you who are more knowledgeable than I. Please reconsider. Sue ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:45:38 -0400 Reply-To: Sam Andrusko Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Newcomers (was: Information on Indexing) In-Reply-To: <199806240612.CAA75120@rs8.loc.gov> On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Emma Hunt wrote: > I was simply suggesting that newcomers > do a little research first before asking questions. Emma and everyone, Ummm, at times I tend to agree with Emma's feelings. I am curious about how a "newbie" can decide she [am using "she" as it appears most members of Index-L are females--am not singling out anyone by using it] wants to become an indexer *without* having first been inspired by some sort of article or perhaps even a book ("Great home jobs for the 90's"?)--both of which which presumably must have given information on how to procede. Or perhaps it is indeed divine inspiration which leads some newcomers to indexing, in which case I say, why hast thou not gotten thee to a library for some basic information? Again, I am just puzzled about how one can decide he is interested in anything and then at that point not do research on the topic--whether it's indexing or basket weaving. If newcomers can find their way to Index-L, then why can't they find their way to other sources of information on the internet or at least in a library? That is what puzzles me. As a former reference librarian, I know most of us (me included) generally prefer the warm-body source of information--it's easier to go ask someone rather than do the research onself. I also learned (and I do not know if this applies to any of the newcomers) that some people simply do not want to learn, they simply want someone else to help them out. Umm, recently on a genealogy list I subscribe to someone asked a very basic (ok, dumb) question on how find information about someone's birth when there are no state or local vital records. Privately, I told him one had to rely on church records for such information and I suggested he might want to read a book on how to genealogical research to cover basic methodolgy. He snapped back that he had taken numerous courses on genealogy and thought my response to him most unkind. I don't think so. The idea of being able to send an email FAQ to new subscribers is a great idea, but (again from my experience as a reference librarian), most people don't read such things and if they do, most don't retain the information. I'd almost be willing to bet that we would still get questions about the USDA courses, how-to-get-started, etc. The "warm-body source of information" inclination will win out nearly every time. So, Kevin's suggestion is, of course, the best--just delete posts which appear likely to raise your blood pressure. :) Emma, hope you do not unsubscribe. There's nothing wrong in voicing your opinions here and don't fall for the you've-been-mean-to-me guilt trip. You were not being mean, just curmudgeonly. ;) Your point about doing basic research on one's own is quite valid. Cheers to all! Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:47:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "C. E. O'Connor" Subject: Posting the FAQ I am on another list that posts the FAQ for the list on the first day of every month and it is very helpful. I agree about the fact that not everyone has full internet access and may just be using email or accessing their email account from a remote site. When I am at work I can check my email using a gateway thorugh our system but the web access is only through lynx and not very stable. For old timers it can be annoying to see the same type of questions but as has been said a number of times, that's what delete is for. You don't have to read every message (who has time?) Cindi Ellen O'Connor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:54:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Binder Subject: Quark's take on indexing (long) Good morning...I'm a lurker on the list who finds the indexing process fascinating. I'm a page comp person myself, but I really admire the intellectual rigor that indexing seems to require (and I'm a wicked suck-up ;-), so I've been reading over your shoulders for a few months. I thought some of you might enjoy reading this article from Quark's technical email newsletter. For those who don't know, QuarkXPress 4.0, the newest version, includes embedded indexing capabilities for the first time, so a lot of Quark people are thinking about indexing for the first time. From my point of view, it's great that they're pointing out that the software can't do it all, but I'd love to hear what you indexers think of what they're saying. Kate ================================================================ ------------------------ 3. QXP 4: Indexing Concepts --Nicola Donavan ------------------------ QuarkXPress(tm) 4.03 allows you to create indexes using the Index XTensions(tm) software. This article will not cover the use of the Index XTension, but will discuss what an index is and different types of indexes. For specific how-to questions, please refer to the indexing tech*notes at , the "A Guide to QuarkXPress" manual, or contact Quark Technical Support. --What is an index? An index is a list of subject matter arranged by categories or hierarchies. Indexes evolved to make the retrieval of information in voluminous printed material more efficient. Most indexes today are alphabetized -- a system we take for granted, but was probably first developed by early Greek scholars. --What makes a good index? A good index is a logical and well-organized list of topics pertaining to the subject of the book or material. The reader should be able to find what they need where they expect to find it. For example, a cookbook that contains a recipe for Chocolate Cloud Cake should list this recipe under the entries of Cakes, Chocolate, and Chocolate Cloud Cake. If an index is poorly constructed, information can be difficult to find or distinguish. Using the cookbook example, a poorly constructed index cookbook might list a recipe for lemon pie under Pie but not under Lemon or under Fruit. --Why doesn't indexing software automate the entire process? Creating an index for a book involves understanding and organizing the ideas and information in the text. A computer cannot do this. It can automate the marking of text and retrieval of page number information, but it cannot analyze the relationships between subjects and their subsets; for example, it cannot determine that lemon pie is a subset of fruit pies or pies. Software also cannot find indirect references. For example, a cookbook contains an interview about pies of a bygone era. The interview contains the following statement: "Pies? All kinds. Raisin. Cheese. Apple. Green Tomato. Lemon. Lemon was a favorite. We used to soak the lemon slices in sugar for a day and stir them once in a while before we put them in the crust." This information directly relates to lemon pies, but if the indexing software was searching for "lemon pie," it would not find any occurrence where "lemon" and "pie" appear together as one phrase. To create a good index, these relationships, associations, and connections must be made and noted by the indexer. --Aren't all indexes formatted the same way? Although all indexes are set in a flush-and-hang style, there are two types of indexes: Run-In and Nested (or Indented). Flush-and-hang means that the first line is set flush and the rest of the entry is indented below it. In a Run-In index, subentries follow one another, with no breaks in between. Run-in style is more common in general books that have one or two levels of entries (a main entry and subentries). In a Nested or Indented index, each subentry begins a new line, which is indented one em space. Subentries that run over are indented two ems, and if the main heading runs over, it is also indented two ems. An example of a Run-In index: Alligators 22-36: avoiding, 24; denigration of, 36; Queen's, 22 An example of an Indented index: Alligators, 22-36 avoiding, 24 denigration of, 36 Queen's, 22 How do I know what type of index to use? If you are not sure what type of index to use, look at the subject matter. Generally, more complicated subjects with several levels of subentries require a Nested or Indented index. A Run-In index can be used if the index has only two levels. Technical books or manuals, reference works, and cookbooks usually use Indented indexes. A book on a very specific subject, such as lemon pies in North American history, would probably use a Run-In index. ================================================================ ------------------------------------- Kate Binder, Ursa Editorial Design UrsaDesign@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ursadesign ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:51:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Information on indexing for newbies Hello everyone, I normally do not get embroiled in these discussions, but it seems that many of us forget what it is to be "green" at something. Things that seem obvious to us are not so obvious to the uninitiated. For example, last week I was at the pharmacy, waiting patiently (?) in a LONG line and clutching my sore throat, hoping that I could get home soon with my filled prescription in my hot little hand. As I was standing there in my own little world, mentally editing the index I was currently working on, I overheard a woman asking the pharmacy assistant which of the two books on drugs for sale there was the best one to buy. The assistant told her that the one published most recently would be the best, since prescription drugs change so much so often. Then came the shocker for me: neither one of them knew to look at the verso page for the date of publication. They were looking at the cover, inside the cover, on the spine, etc. This went on for several minutes. Finally, I couldn't stand it anymore, and I told them that I was a librarian and "you can find the date of publication here" as I pointed to the verso page. They were very happy to learn something new, and I felt good because I had helped someone. Moral of the story: on this list there are no "dumb" questions. We have all asked "dumb" questions at one time or another. In fact, so-called "dumb" questions often teach all of us things that we need to know (and didn't know that we needed to know). Keep the questions coming. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Bryant Subject: Re: thanks to all; more questions A > >Become an avid reader of indexes. Browse the stacks comparing indexes of >similar books. Studying indexes is the closest I think you will come to >a learning shortcut. If you read this list long enough or talk to enough >indexers I believe you'll find that when we pick up a new book we >immediately turn to the back. > >Of course, that's not the only thing you should do. You really need to >absorb the material you have ordered when it arrives. > >Best, >Craig Brown > >========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword >========================================== > Also, Craig, that's what school media specialists do when they are looking at a book to purchase. Salespeople would visit my high school library with a box of books. The first thing I always do is open the "back" of the book to look at the index so I could tell if my students could quickly find information. Also, since I knew many of the topics the teachers would assign, I would look for that information, too. For example, a hot topic is lasers in science, so I would look in the index and then go to those pages to see how much info. is really there. And yes, although I looked at all the rest of the book, that index was the most important. If a book had a poor index, I would not buy it for my school! It didn't matter the pictures or arrangement, the index was the deciding factor as far as purchase! Most book reviews include the quality of the index for high school media centers, also. So....you guys are pretty important! Give yourself a well-deserved pat on the back:-) Charlotte Bryant Anderson, SC cbryant@carol.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:10:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Quark's take on indexing (long) In-Reply-To: <199806241159.EAA16903@powergrid.electriciti.com> One of the really great features of Cindex 6.1 (and perhaps Macrex and SkyIndex) is that one can print-to-file traditional back-of-the book indexes for direct import into Quark. The nightime typesetter at the service bureau actually called me to gush about the Quark files: "It's fun to work on your indexes." Another typesetter kept trying to open and translate the files--which does not work--and gave everyone headaches. I finally asked the successful typesetter the process, passed it along, and now they directly import without a hitch. The customer is delighted with the product. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:28:15 -0500 Reply-To: rumpergj@jmu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rumper, Gail J" Subject: Information and newbies I am new to this list and to indexing and after reading what several people have had to say about "newbies" and researching, I felt a strong need to respond. I found out about indexing from a book called "Careers for Bookworms and Other Literary Types." The first thing I did was to access the internet and that is how I found ASI which is how I found out about the USDA course (which I do plan to take) and it is also how I found out about this list. I also went to the library and checked out all the books they had on indexing. My point is that even after reading all these books and searching the 'net, there is still no substitute for "picking the brains" of those more experienced than I. In fact, that is how I got this first indexing job; I was asking advice from a friend about my life in general, and she happened to have just written a book. I value everyone's opinions and I understand what folks are saying about doing basic research; that's a very valid point. But I intend to find information any way I can and if that means asking "dumb" questions, then by golly, that's what I'm going to do. This list is one of the most valuable resources I've found and I continue to appreciate everyone out there who has had the patience to help me. Gail rumpergj@jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:31:37 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Re: Information on Indexing All, I started my response to this topic last night, then decided to sleep on it. Perhaps more people should do that--it's like setting aside prior to editing--you need time and perspective. Let me first say that the people I've met and conversed with on Index-L have been beyond supportive. Let's face it, a new indexer is a competitor to some degree, as well as being clueless and helpless in many respects. I can't recall how many people have answered my stupid questions, told me in detail about their marketing plans, startup ideas, indexing techniques, etc. More than a few beginners or petitioners have been gratefully helped in a variety of ways from the collective wisdom of the group. I believe that Index-L is a cut above some of the other mailing lists and newsgroups that I've participated in over the years. Be that as it may, there is an etiquette to mailing list participation. Generally people should lurk for several hundred messages to get a flavor for the group's dynamic, tone, and professional level. This needn't take long (a week or two in our case is sufficient). At that point, people should feel free to jump in and ask questions. but they should be pointed questions, particular in detail about one or two aspects of the field. One of the few discouraging things that participants come across are general, vague or broad pleas for information about the field. It makes it difficult to help, for one thing. For the most part, people have been doing this. There is an occasional soul who jumps right in and asks for lots of info. This has been nicely handled by several people in the past with suggestions for books to read or web sites to visit that provide more info. Herein lies the problem. There is no systematic, easy way for people to obtain the information they are looking for without asking seemingly "dumb" questions. One of the administrative problems that Index-L seems to have is that its policies and procedures are not widely known. For instance, there are archived records of discussions, arranged chronologically, going back years. But people only learn about it when someone who knows about it posts something about it. And it is not an intuitive system. There is no FAQ. Someone suggested that the ASI web site serves as a FAQ. I've visited the site and it is useful (more so now with its redesign), but it's web-based, which may be a problem for a few. I'd propose a couple of items to improve the usefulness of the archives and other matters. 1. An automatic administrative message could be sent monthly or bi-weekly, or even weekly, that describes signing on and off, location and use of archives, plus differnet commands to set different parameters on your account. 2. A FAQ specific to index-l could be developed. These can be developed for many different areas (general info, marketing, books to read, Courses, etc.). You know, the most frequently asked questions that annoy, irritate, bother or amuse us all. 3. People need to remember to think carefully before they post anything, as their comments do not have the same tone in writing that their author may intend. Emoticons don't cut it. I joined this list when there was a particularly virulent discussion going on about a Marketing Consortium, and I remember thinking that these people were really intense. Well, they are. They are people and like anyone are passionate about their beliefs, pride and feelings. But mostly, they are professionals who enjoy each other's electronic presence for the collegial and personal relationships it provides. I'd be glad to volunteer to help develop the suggestions I've made and I don't doubt there would be others who would also. As a final point, I know that it can be difficult for a newbie to wait for info when they discover something that interests them. I live in a rural area with one bookstore, no competent library within 45 minutes and two small children with schedules, school, etc... When I first stumbled upon index-l (and stumble I did--I wasn't looking for it), I found the names of a couple books and ordered them through inter-library loan. I took 3 weeks for them to arrive. I lurked on index-l, checked out everyone's web site and organizational sites, but still had dozens of questions. I had no choice but to start asking. And no one discouraged me. With a few automated improvements, I think we can meet everyone's needs and improve the list for all. Thanks for your time. Dan ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:45:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Babbitt Subject: (no subject) DIG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:51:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Newcomers and FAQs I want to add my comments to those of Kevin Broccoli's. Indeed, newcomers *are* welcome to INDEX-L and yes, the only stupid question is the one not asked, so ask away! To Gail J. Rumper, Elizabeth SanMiguel, and Barbara Garrett, please don't go away. Emma Hunt's message was (to me shockingly) uncharacteristic of the usually warm and welcoming response of INDEX-Llers who are some of the most caring and helpful people you'll find anywhere. But I guess we all have our bad moments when patience wears thin. When this happens, I hope more veteran INDEX-Llers will remember how it felt to be new to indexing and, if unable to repond with understanding and patience, to use the delete key and leave the response to others on the list. As for trying to find *anything* on the Internet within a reasonable time, especially if you are new and haven't "learned the lingo," I say good luck. Why go that frustrating route when a post to INDEX-L will get authoritative answers from those who know best, including some helpful URLs to sites with FAQs (frequently asked questions) can be found. I say this despite being a librarian. When I need answers to questions I'd far rather ask someone who knows the answer or who can point me in the right direction than to wrestle with an Internet search. When we have the Internet indexed or cataloged to the point where a search there yields results as precise as a search in a traditional library catalog, I may feel differently. Until then, give me a real, live, patient human being with human intelligence over artificial (read inadequate) intelligence any day! O.K., said my piece. Guess my employer would like me to catalog some *books* now! Again, welcome newcomers and please stick around. We need you! ******************************************************************************** Jean A. Thompson PHONE: (518) 442-3628 Monographic Cataloger FAX: (518) 442-3630 University at Albany/SUNY University Library, B-35 E-MAIL: thompson@cnsvax.albany.edu 1400 Washington Avenue Albany, NY 12222 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:56:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Information on Indexing In-Reply-To: <199806241430.KAA07051@library.lib.binghamton.edu> Dan, et al. Yes, there is a FAQ. I post it at irregular intervals and I guess it is time to do it again. The FAQ also resides at the gopher site with the index-l archives. I have not posted the FAQ recently, because I thought I would get around to creating an Index-l website soon. That is still my intention but my regular job keeps intruding. I will get to it soon as I will be starting a 6-months sabbatical in a week (to work on an indexing project, of all things 8-)!!) and expect to be able to take some time to tend to these matters. At the risk of being inundated, would those of you who do not have access to the web let me know. I want to get a feel for how widespread the problem of non-access is. Do not reply to the list. Reply to me: cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu. Also, for what its worth, the nature of listservs is that questions and discussions are recycled. Subscribers come and go...its the nature of the beast. Charlotte Skuster Index-l Moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:44:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Infornation on Indexing Emma writes: << All right, call me a grouchy old curmudgeon---it's probably true. But I am constantly amazed at the people who have just "discovered" indexing and index-l, and want to be spoon-fed more information about indexing. Don't they know how to use search engines? >> Remember that not all computer users have Web access. Folks who are connecting through work or school may only have email privileges (employers don't like to enable Web-surfing during company time ). I got by on email for about a year before I finally gave in and bought a home computer. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:00:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Quark's take on indexing (long) Kate writes: << I thought some of you might enjoy reading this article from Quark's technical email newsletter. For those who don't know, QuarkXPress 4.0, the newest version, includes embedded indexing capabilities for the first time, so a lot of Quark people are thinking about indexing for the first time. From my point of view, it's great that they're pointing out that the software can't do it all, but I'd love to hear what you indexers think of what they're saying. >> Just as a footnote, you can also buy a third-party indexing extension for previous versions of QuarkXPress that will enable you to include embedded entries. I've worked with both the XTension and the 4.0 native indexing program... the new program has some nice indexer-friendly "Cindex-like" features, although I also thought it was somewhat slow-going. The older XTension allows you to code more quickly but is more clunky, much like Word's embedded indexing feature. (It's also impossible to see the index in progress.) The one advantage to the XTension is that you can embed entries in Word files and then import the entire Word file into Quark. (I know... it sounds crazy, but some publishers need that capability.) Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:19:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. Shaw" Subject: Re: Proper Names In-Reply-To: <199806232230.SAA00916@camel5.mindspring.com> >A bit off topic but would appreciate it if someone could tell me why I >don't see my own posts. TIA > >Toni I just had a round with the Binghamton server about this, too. These are the subscription options the server will tell you about: Ack an acknowledgement from the server not, as on other lists, a copy of your own message Mail list messages; nomail is postpone on other lists Files I have no idea what this means; my guess is whether you can get files of past messages or digests from the server Repro copies of your own messages ("ack" on other lists) Header something about the information present in the header of the messages you receive, what I don't know Conceal I have no idea what this means, but my guess is whether someone can get your address from the list files To change your subscription options, send a message from your subscription address to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu with no subject line. In the body of the message, set the option or the negative option, e.g. Set Index-L Repro Set Index-L Norepro When asked for help, the server told me: ---------- LISTSERV version 1.8a - most commonly used commands Info Order documentation Lists Get a description of all lists SUBscribe listname Subscribe to a list SIGNOFF listname Sign off from a list SIGNOFF * (NETWIDE - from all lists on all servers REView listname Review a list Query listname Query your subscription options SET listname options Update your subscription options INDex Order a list of LISTSERV files GET filename filetype Order a file from LISTSERV REGister full_name|OFF Tell LISTSERV about your name There are more commands (AFD, FUI, PW, etc). Send an INFO REFCARD for a comprehensive reference card, or just INFO for a list of available documentation files. ---------- Cheers, Deborah shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:34:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: FAQ INDEX-L FAQ=20 Contents: 1. Index-l procedures 2. Netiquette 3. Archives 4. Books on indexing 5. What software do indexers use? 6. Courses or training for indexers (outside of library schools) 7. Professional societies/organizations for indexers 8. Network connections 9. Internet Sites=20 10.Winners of the ASI/H.W. Wilson Company Award for Indexing=20 1. INDEX-L PROCEDURES There are three addresses you need to use for interaction with index-l: To take part in a discussion or send a message to the list (a.k.a. group or subscribers), address your e-mail to index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a message directly to the moderator (a.k.a. Charlotte), address your e-mail to cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu or Skuster@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a command to the listserv, address your e-mail to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu. As subscribers, you are able to send commands to the listserv to see the archives, see a list of subscribers, stop your mail for a while, or a number of other options. To get a list of listserv commands and what they do, send the following message to the listserv:=20 INFO REFCARD Do not sign your name or put anything else in the message. 2. Netiquette Index-l is un-moderated most of the time. This means the listowner does not see the messages before subscribers do. There are +/-800 subscribers to index-l. It is a very diverse group of=20 free-lance indexers, students, academics, in-house indexers, technical writers, editors, and others. The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is appropriate. ---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about software/equipment. ---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be legitimately related to indexing, it may appropriate.) ---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted messages. --Other guidelines related to keeping the list free of clutter and strife ---Refrain from sending comments without content such as "I agree" or "right on" or "me too", "thanks", or "welcome". This type of message is best sent directly to the person you are responding to. (An exception to this would be a global thanks for information or assistance provided by several people.) ---When surveying the group for information that requires a brief answer, such as "how many of you are librarians?" or "who uses XYZ software?", please invite respondents to reply to you directly and offer to summarize for the list. ---Avoid quoting long messages when responding to a post. Quote segments just long enough to let others know what you are responding to. =20 ---Fire prevention. If possible, try not to respond to postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the person personally. ---If you are having technical problems, please contact the listowner directly (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu). ---For a more extensive treatment of netiquette issues see the following site on the world wide web: =20 http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/netiquette.html 3. ARCHIVES There are two ways to look at the archives: ---Received directly from the listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Send the following message to the listserv: index index-l. You will receive a list of available archives. When you decide what you would like to see, send the following message to the listserv: get log9703a (for the first week in March, for example) ---On the library gopher at Georgia Southern University: Messages are stored here from the start of the listserv in 1992 through the most recent preceding month. A WAIS searching program is available to search through all years at once or through a selected year. =20 The GSU gopher is located through a gopher client at gopher.gasou.edu or by telnet to gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu.=20 public login (INFO), and then look for the gopher program on the the main information services menu.=20 When you reach the gopher take this directory path: =20 /Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Organizations/Index-L 4. BOOKS ON INDEXING Bonura, L. The Art of Indexing. Wiley, 1994 Knight, G. N. Indexing, The Art Of. Allen & Unwin, 1979.=20 =20 Lancaster, F. W. Indexing and Abstracting in Theory and Practice. U of Illinois Press, 1991.=20 =20 Lancaster, F. W. Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval,=20 2nd ed. Information resources Press, 1986=20 Mulvany, Nancy C. Indexing Books, University of Chicago Press, 1994. =20 Wellisch, H. Indexing and Abstracting, an International=20 Bibliography ABC-Clio, 1980.=20 =20 Wellisch, H. Indexing from A to Z. H. W. Wilson, 1991.=20 =20 =20 5. WHAT SOFTWARE DO INDEXERS USE? (This is a limited list. See the ASI Web Site for a more extensive listing: http://www.well.com/user/asi) Cindex (DOS, Macintosh, Windows) Indexing Research=20 Box 18609=20 Rochester, NY 14618 (716) 461-5530=20 FAX: (716) 442-3924 info@indexres.com http://www.indexres.com HyperIndex (Macintosh) Andre De Tienne 7590 Harcourt Road #106 Indianapolis, IN 46260 (317) 274-2033 adetienn@iupui.edu =20 IN>SORT (DOS) Kensa Software=20 P.O. Box 4415=20 Northbrook, IL 60065=20 (708) 559-0297=20 info@kensa.com =20 Macrex (DOS) Wise Bytes P.O. Box 3051=20 Daly City, CA 95015-0051=20 (415) 756-0821=20 FAX: (415) 757-1567=20 Macrex@aol.com http://www.cix.co.uk/~hcalvert SKY Index (Windows) SKY Software 4675 York One Rd Lineboro, MD 21102 Voice and FAX: (410) 374-3484=20 email@sky-software.com URL: http://www.sky-software.com wINDEX (DOS) Susan Holbert Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 FAX: (617) 894-4665 susanh@world.std.com http://www.abbington.com/holbert/windex.html 6. COURSES OR TRAINING FOR INDEXERS (OUTSIDE OF LIBRARY SCHOOLS) Graduate School of the USDA=20 Correspondence Programs, Ag Box 9911=20 Room 1114, South Agriculture Building=20 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW=20 Washington, DC =20 (202) 720-7123 TDD: (202) 690-1516=20 http://grad.usda.gov/corres/edit.html 20250 Tuition: (includes all materials)=20 $281,00--Basic Indexing (beginning) $275.00--Applied Indexing (more advanced) Basic Indexing Skills Video Susan Holbert/Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 susanh@world.std.com http://www.abbington.com/holbert/learn.html Fee: $149 + $7 shipping + $7.45 tax for MA residents only 7. PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES/ORGANIZATIONS FOR INDEXERS =20 American Society of Indexers (ASI)=20 P.O. Box 48267 Seattle, WA 98148-0267 (206) 241-9196 FAX: (206) 727-6430 E-MAIL: asi@well.com http://www.well.com/user/asi/=20 Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada/ Soci=82t=82 Canadienne pour l'Analyse de Documents (IASC/SCAD) Box 744 Station F=20 Toronto Ontario=20 Canada M4Y 2N6=20 http://tornade.ere.umontreal.ca/~turner/iasc/home.html =20 National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services=20 (NFAIS)=20 1518 Walnut Street Suite 307 Philadelphia PA 19102-3403=20 (215) 893-1561 FAX: (215) 893-1564 E-MAIL: nfais@hslc.org=20 Society of Indexers (SI) Mermaid House 1 Mermaid Court LONDON SE1 1HR United Kingdom +44 (0) 171 4034947 FAX +44 (0) 171 4038988 E-MAIL: 10624.1745@compuserve.com Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI)=20 GPO Box 1251L, Melbourne=20 Victoria 3001, Australia=20 E-MAIL:mindexer@interconnect.com.au http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi =20 8. NETWORK CONNECTIONS=20 =20 America Online (800) 227-6364=20 =20 CompuServe (800) 848-8199=20 =20 Delphi (800) 495-4005=20 =20 GEnie (800) 638-9636=20 =20 The Well (415) 332-4335=20 =20 Real/Time Communications (512) 459-4391=20 =20 See also.=20 Maren, M. "The Age of E-Mail. Home Office Computing,=20 December, 1993, 63-70.=20 Tetzeli, R. "Is Going On-line Worth the Money?" FORTUNE 129(12):104-105, 108. June 13, 1994. 9. Internet Sites Gopher Index-L Archives gopher eagle1.cc.gasou.edu World Wide Web American Society of Indexers http://www.well.com/user/asi Australian Society of Indexers http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada http://tornade.ere.umontreal.ca/~turner/iasc/home.html =20 =20 =20 10. WINNERS OF THE ASI/H.W. WILSON COMPANY AWARD FOR INDEXING=20 =20 1979--Hans H. Wellisch, author and indexer; John Wiley, publisher: The Conversion of Scripts: Its Nature, History and Utilization =20 1980--Linda I. Solow, indexer; M.I.T. Press, publisher: Beyond Orpheus:Studies in Musical Structures.=20 =20 1981--Delight Ansley, indexer; Random House Publisher: Cosmos by Carl Sagan,=20 =20 1982--Catherine Fix, indexer; Wm. Saunders Company, publisher: Diagnosis of Bone and Joint Disorders.=20 =20 1983--Award not given.=20 =20 1984--Trish Yancey, indexer; Information Handling Services, publisher: Index and Directory of U.S. Industry Standards=20 =20 1985--Sydney W. Cohen, indexer; Random House, publisher: The Experts Speak by Cerf and Navasky.=20 =20 1986--Marjorie Hyslop, indexer; American Society for Metals, publisher: Metals Handbook.=20 =20 1987--Award not given.=20 =20 1988--Jeanne Moody, indexer; National Wildlife Institute, publisher: Raptor Management Techniques.=20 =20 1989--Philip James, indexer; Butterworths, publisher: Medicine for the Practicing Physician, 2nd ed..=20 =20 1990--Marcia Carlson, indexer; Cornell University Press, publisher: Strategic Nuclear Arms & Arms Control Debates.=20 =20 1991--Daniels, Nancy L., indexer; Van Nostrand Reinhold, publisher:Beyond Public Architecture: Strategies for Design Evaluation. =20 1992--Johnson, Rachel Jo., indexer; Matthew Bender, publisher: American Law of Real Property.=20 =20 1993--Award not given.=20 1994--Deminna, Patricia, indexer; U. of California, publisher: Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture by Daniel Boyarin 1995--White, Martin L., indexer; University of Chicago Press, publisher; The Promise of Pragmatism: Modernism and the Crisis of Knowledge and Authority. 1996--Award not given 1997--Gillian Northcott and Ruth Levitt, indexers; Grove's Dictionaries in the United States and Macmillan Publishers Ltd. in the United Kingdom; Dictionary of Art, edited by Joan Shoaf Turner.. The Dictionary of Art is made up of 32 volumes. This marks the first time that the Wilson Award has been presented for a multi-volume work. The index, which took 10 years to compile, comprises one volume of the dictionary.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:49:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Information on Indexing II In other words, I'll just take my ball and go home. TW > -----Original Message----- > From: Emma Hunt [SMTP:Emma1113@AOL.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 7:11 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Information on Indexing II > > >I have no intention of posting > >anything > >again---I'm unsubscribing from the list. I've had my say. > > > >Regards, > > > Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melinda Davis Organization: Univ. of Tennessee College of Law Subject: "Portraits in Cataloging and Classification" Indexers and catalogers may be interested in two recent issues of Cataloging and Classification Quarterly (v.25, #2/3 & #4)--it is a series of "Portraits in Cataloging and Classification: Theorists, Educators, and Practitioners of the Late Twentieth Century." Hans Wellisch is in #4. I was delighted to find my library school cataloging prof included--brought back some good memories, and guess what, I found out that she belonged to ASI! Of course, when I was in library school, I had absolutely no intention of becoming a cataloger, although I loved the course, and indexing would have been even further from my mind. And now here I am, a cataloger who indexes on the side. Things have a way of coming full circle, don't they? Melinda D. Davis Assistant Professor and Catalog Librarian College of Law Library University of Tennessee 1505 W. Cumberland Avenue Knoxville, TN 37996-1800 (423) 974-6552 (423) 974-6571 (fax) e-mail: davis@libra.law.utk.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:47:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Seeing my own posts Thank you, Naomi, Deborah, and the others who supplied my with the information needed. Cheers. Toni Clark Williams The Procyon Group Documentation Department whose opinions are her own ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:23:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eileen Lutzow Subject: Quote about indexing For those of you who like to collect quotes about indexing, here's another that can be found in _Our singular strengths : meditations for librarians_ by Michael Gorman (Chicago : American Library Association, 1998) p. 171. *************************************************** "Some books live or die by their indexes. An index can be the determining factor in whether a reference book is useful. I have a cookbook that contains great recipes but has an index so eccentric that it is easier to memorize the recipes than to hunt for them. On the other hand, I have just read a long biography packed with detail and possessing a marvelous index that enables the reader to locate any fact or incident with ease. The Anglo-American tradition of serious writing and publishing calls for an extensive 'scholarly apparatus' (indexes, footnotes, citations, and bibliographies) and it is always a shock to read continental European, especially French, books that lack footnotes or indexes. There have been a number of attempts to automate indexing, and there is no doubt that indexes have improved greatly over the last fifty years. However, indexing cannot be mechanized and its largely anonymous practitioners need much flair and intuition to accompany the automated approach. Pity the poor indexer! Most readers take good indexes for granted and curse bad ones and, in either event, give little thought to the people who created them. I will appreciate the work of the Unknown Indexer." *************************************************** For those of you who give a hoot, Michael Gorman is a "somebody" among librarians, being one of, if not *the*, driving force behind the developement of AACR (Anglo-American Cataloging Rules), which is a "bible" for library catalogers. He is currently dean of libraries at California State University at Fresno, and a heck of a nice guy with a wonderful British accent. The rest of the book contains similar short essays followed by concise statements on a wide range of issues relating to libraries and librarianship. Eileen Lutzow Cataloger Charleston County Library Charleston, SC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:21:48 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: trust In "Matter of Trust," Claire Garoutte quotes from Bob Dylan: "To live outside the law, you must be honest." We must recognize that we are living outside the law (i.e., established custom) and that we ourselves must handle all the fallout from our behavior. We can't expect a court to handle our messes, and we can't expect our biological families or even our friends to give us advice or to understand what we're doing. In beginning poly relationships or adding members, it's crucial to establish and use behavioral algorithms (such as those printed recently in Loving More magazine); otherwise our subsequent behavior will be nothing but confusion. Safe-sex rules are part of the lore of poly living that we're elaboratin g, either as sociosexual innovaters or as folks who just want to have fun. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:27:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Judaica questions Delurking: My usual person to ask these questions of has gone on vacation so I must ask of all you wonderful people these questions. Does anyone know if Rabad is Rabbi Asher ben David (of the 13th century?) When indexing ancient rabbis such as Asher ben David do you index them as Asher ben David, or as David, Asher ben. I doubt ben David was an actual surname, but was merely an identification, like Azriel of Gerona. If all you have is a first name of a rabbi, would you put Isaac (Rabbi) or just Isaac? Especially confusing . . . If you have a ton of Isaacs, how do you know if they're all the same guy, or separate indiduals? Rabbi Isaac, Isaac the Blind, Isaac of somewhere or other. This book is a multi-authored book, actually of papers presented at a conference on 13th c. Jewish mystical leaders. The article I'm suffering through at the moment was written by a very eminent scholar, but I think he doesn't speak English very well and so his writing in English is very difficult to make out. In fact, I might even call it nearly incomprehensible. Fortunately only about 4 people will read this book I think (there will only be 500 copies printed) but I'm afraid of making a idiot of myself by listing people separately who are one and the same, or vice versa, and of leaving out important concepts, or putting in trivia. Thanks in advance!!!! Pray for me . . . Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:56:55 -0500 Reply-To: Laura R Rustin Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura R Rustin Subject: Re: Judaica questions In-Reply-To: <199806241827.NAA15440@freebird.ghofn.org> Rachel, I have to pass on the first question ( does Rabad = the other name), although I have passed it on electronically to my authority. I recently indexed a book with the subtitle " Ancient Jewish attitudes toward other religions" and asked those same questions as well as many more. I'll include a couple of my entries here since they will show the way I was advised to format the entries. Simeon b. Gamaliel, Rabbi, 167n95 Simeon b. Yohai, Rabbi, 164 Simon (in Josephus), 130 Simon b. Kosiba, see Bar Kokhba Simon the Maccabee, 37, 39-40 I had a lot of help from the author I was working with, but even then there were some references to Yohannan that I never did determine which Yonannan they were. (There was Rabbi Yohannan, the High Priest Yohannan and Yohannan b. Zakkai) i suspect that the author I worked with might be one of the 4 people who read your book. Thanks for bringing back some memories. By the way, that book had three indexes....subject, modern author, and ancient and Biblical citations. Final draft ran to 51 pages. Good luck. Laura Rustin Houston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:59:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BALIPETZ@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Quark's take on indexing (long) Kate, I started to read the Quark article on indexing, and it turned me off immediately. The very first question addressed, What is indexing?, talks about listing of subject matter by categories or hierarchies. But it totally misses the essential element, which is that an index exists to provide location information. Maybe the article got more accurate as it progressed, but I could not spare the time to find out. Ben Lipetz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:59:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Judaica questions In-Reply-To: <199806241828.OAA50478@rs8.loc.gov> Rachel, The Library of Congress has him as Asher ben David, 13th cent. and cites the Encyc. Judaica as its source. There are two refs. from a Rabad: Abraham ben David, of Posquieres, 1125-(ca.) 1198, with an accent grave over the first "e" (that's the very first key in the upper left hand corner of my keyboard, right below the tilde); and Ibn Daud, Abraham ben David, Halevi, ca. 1100-ca. 1180. For folks without family names, I'd enter them in running form (e.g. Asher ben David) unless ref. sources list them otherwise. I'd put Issac (rabbi) myself, but hope it's not the case of someone so famous one need only say Isaac and everyone knows whom they are referring to. I think the Encyc. Judaica is the ref. work you need for all these Isaacs. Best of luck! Sounds like a neat book! Sam Andrusko On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Rachel Rice wrote: > Delurking: > > My usual person to ask these questions of has gone on vacation so I must > ask of all you wonderful people these questions. > > Does anyone know if Rabad is Rabbi Asher ben David (of the 13th century?) > > When indexing ancient rabbis such as Asher ben David do you index them as > Asher ben David, or as David, Asher ben. I doubt ben David was an actual > surname, but was merely an identification, like Azriel of Gerona. > > If all you have is a first name of a rabbi, would you put Isaac (Rabbi) or > just Isaac? Especially confusing . . . > > If you have a ton of Isaacs, how do you know if they're all the same guy, > or separate indiduals? Rabbi Isaac, Isaac the Blind, Isaac of somewhere or > other. > > This book is a multi-authored book, actually of papers presented at a > conference on 13th c. Jewish mystical leaders. The article I'm suffering > through at the moment was written by a very eminent scholar, but I think he > doesn't speak English very well and so his writing in English is very > difficult to make out. In fact, I might even call it nearly > incomprehensible. > > Fortunately only about 4 people will read this book I think (there will > only be 500 copies printed) but I'm afraid of making a idiot of myself by > listing people separately who are one and the same, or vice versa, and of > leaving out important concepts, or putting in trivia. > > Thanks in advance!!!! Pray for me . . . > > Rachel > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:34:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Proper Names In-Reply-To: <199806240424.XAA02480@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I am indexing a book about geology. I have to make an entry of 3 proper >names which are somewhat similar. The problem is all 3 of them are on >the same page.I have 2 choices, > >Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics at Munster, Germany, 132 > >Institute of Geophysics in Warsaw, 132 > >Institute of Geophysics in Kiel, West Germany, 132 > The other choice is..... > >Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Germany), 132 >Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 >Institute of Geophysics (West Germany), 132 > I always do it the second way, but I keep the cities: Institute of Geophysics (Kiel, West Germany), 132 Institute of Geophysics (Warsaw), 132 Institute of Theoretical Solid State Physics (Munster, Germany), 132 I don't add country names for cities that are very well known, such as Warsaw. A habit from my copyediting days. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:34:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Information on Indexing In-Reply-To: <199806240424.XAA02480@mixcom.mixcom.com> >All right, call me a grouchy old curmudgeon---it's probably true. But I am >constantly >amazed at the people who have just "discovered" indexing and index-l, and want >to be spoon-fed more information about indexing. Don't they know how to use >search engines? Haven't they ever done research? How are they going to be able >to find information they need while indexing a book if they can't even find >out >anything about indexing? Using search engines is only one way to get information. Another way is to ask the "experts," by posting a question to the relevant list. I, for one, am not offended to be asked for pointers to a Web site, etc. Some people like to search through reference shelves in libraries; some go right to the reference librarian for help. This list is for sharing information. All indexing-related questions should be welcome, whether from newcomers or oldtimers. I don't happen to have the URL to the USDA course handy, but there's a link to it from my Web page (see URL below). Yes, the course is given by the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture. More specifically, the USDA has a graduate school (but don't ask me why), and it offers many correspondence courses. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:45:19 -0700 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: cindex question Hi All, I have a question about Cindex. I recently started using this program and LOVE it. Except, I am making up a one-page sample and cannot figure out how to put space between my opening sentence about typographical conventions. I managed to figure out how where to write the sentence, but after calling Indexing Research I am still at a loss as how to put space between that sentence and I would hope some kind of a dividing line. (Just like the setup of the first page of the Index User Manual's Index.) Also, now that the opening sentence showed up, my columns are not even across the top. Probably a separator line will fix that. Indexing Research told me that the directions to do what I want are not in the handbook. I looked everywhere. Maybe it would be a good idea to respond to the list to help other new Thanks to everyone who will (I hope) respond. Kathy Paparchontis kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:21:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Teresa Peterson Subject: Re: Information on Indexing II I agree with Emma. I'm a newbie, lurking while I job-hunt. I've taken the UW Extension Indexing Class (taught by Kari Kells - was Bero) and have interviewed with Microsoft for an one-line indexing project (still waiting to hear from them). My impression of this list is that it's a resource for indexers. I wouldn't subscribe to a list-serve to find out more about a career - it's entirely too much e-mail! A little research before subscribing to this sort of list seems pretty logical. Teresa Peterson Emma Hunt wrote: > I see that some people have been upset by my previous posts (althought some > people have privately agreed with me). I was simply suggesting that newcomers > do a little research first before asking questions. I have no intention of > pursuing > the matter further, and I certainly have no intention of "jumping all over" > anyone > who posts questions to index-l. In fact, I have no intention of posting > anything > again---I'm unsubscribing from the list. I've had my say. > > Regards, > > Emma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Morey, Diane L." Subject: Re: Judaica questions Rachel Rice asked... (( Does anyone know if Rabad is Rabbi Asher ben David (of the 13th century?) > When indexing ancient rabbis such as Asher ben David do you index them > as > Asher ben David, or as David, Asher ben. I doubt ben David was an > actual > surname, but was merely an identification, like Azriel of Gerona. > > If all you have is a first name of a rabbi, would you put Isaac > (Rabbi) or > just Isaac? Especially confusing . . .)) > > [>] [>] Delurking for just a moment (a specific ID of "Rabad", along with other helpful hints on Judaic naming customs, has already been forwarded to Rachel privately under separate cover-- hope it was helpful)-- I'll put on my battered old librarian hat in honor of the upcoming ALA convention... AACR2 (the librarian's bible), has rules both for establishing well-known names (use the "commonly known" form, with cross-references from the actual or variant forms) as well as establishing names from given names, patronymic, place references, etc. Thus: Isaac ben Aaron is established in direct form with a x-ref from Aaron, Isaac ben; similarly, Moses ben Jacob [patronymic], of Coucy [place reference], w/ x-refs from other forms; also, Steinunn Sigurdardottir, etc. in other languages that also use patronymics). There are also a number of specific guidelines for establishing names in 1) many specific languages and/or 2) with terms of honor (thus: Alban, Saint; Francis, of Assisi, Saint; Angelico, fra; Vivekananda, Swami; so I would assume Isaac ben David, [place reference if any], Rabbi). Fort, I never had to do name authority work in my previous incarnation as a librarian-- we had a specialist just for that. :) Now what constitutes well-known... I was always instructed that means well-known to the public at large, or at worst a casual generalist in your topic. So when in doubt, construct the name according to the patronymic/place rules w/ approriate cross-references. Lee Morey, Electronic Transition Staff, U.S. G.P.O. email: dmorey@gpo.gov phone: (202)512-1698 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:44:25 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: trust Oops. Hope you enjoyed it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:06:06 +0100 Reply-To: paul.wheaton@virgin.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Wheaton Organization: Home Subject: Re: Infornation on Indexing Emma Hunt wrote: > > In a message dated 6/23/98 5:44:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, FixUrTypo@aol.com > writes: > > << > Wow, I have to tell you that that is the least supportive comment I've ever > read in a newsgroup. For your information, there are plenty of us who "lurk" > in this newsgroup specifically to gather information. And, yes, I know > exactly how to do research, maybe even better than yourself, and yes, I have > done searches on the topics you suggested, and found plenty of information on > indexing. The one thing I didn't find, and the main reason I subscribed to > this newsgroup, is how to go about learning HOW to index. That is the one > thing NOT mentioned in most of the web sites I found. > > So please excuse me if I have offended any of you here with my questions > about > how to get started in the indexing field. According to this woman's > comments, > this newsgroup is not for us newcomers. > > Barbara > >> > > Barbara, I think you misunderstood me, or I did not make myself clear. If you > are > familiar with newsgroups, then you know that most of them have FAQ > (Frequently Asked Questions) lists. Why? Because people get tired of answering > the same questions over and over. A FAQ answers the basic questions people > ask who are new to a subject. FAQs are usually posted once a month or so, and > "newbies" are often told to wait, observe, and read the FAQ before asking a > question. > The FAQ equivalent for index-l is the ASI web site: www.asindexing.org > > Certainly, index-l is a wonderful resource on "how to" index. People ask for > help all > the time and are usually inundated with expert information. Beginning indexers > are > encouraged to ask questions. It's just that after a while one gets tired of > reading > requests for information on the USDA course, where to get indexing software, > what books are available, when a few minutes' search would reveal the > information. > > I hope that clarifies my meaning. > > Emma Sorry Emma I think you're displaying a narrow attitude. There a great many places outside the USA and the information people want just isn't on the search engines. If you think about it they must have done a considerable amount of research just to find index-l. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:59:01 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Information on Indexing In-Reply-To: <199806241906.MAA20553@neti.saber.net> Carol, I noticed an article in the last Indexer that explains the history of the USDA graduate school program: "Bringing it home: learning to index books by correspondence," on page 185! Naomi . More specifically, the USDA has a graduate >school (but don't ask me why), and it offers many correspondence courses. > >Cheers, > > >Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My >Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. >Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer >http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:00:01 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: locators and footnotes In-Reply-To: <199806240604.XAA11769@neti.saber.net> Dear Tom and Sylvia, This reference still doesn't clarify for me what to do it the locators that look like this: whathaveyou, 63-67, 63n or should it be whathaveyou, 63n, 63-67 Any other thoughts from others on the order of locators and references would be appreciated. Naomi >I should have mentioned that I was referring to the Chicago 13th edition. >Thank you for clarifying. > >Sylvia Coates > >Tom Brown wrote: > >> > >This situation is discussed in Chicago on page 520 (section 18.26). >> >> The reference 18.26 is for the 13th edition of _The Chicago Manual of >> Style_. The equivalent in the 14th edition is 17.28. (I own the complete >> 13th edition, but have only the USDA booklet _Indexes_ from the 14th.) >> >> ____ >> /om thomasb@tp.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:55:36 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) on indexing In-Reply-To: <04204111717859@domain1.bigpond.com> Australians (and others) interested in beginning indexing could do worse than to start at the Australian Society of Indexers Web site: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi. We don't have a FAQ page yet, but if people would like to contribute the material, I'm happy to organize it and put one up. I'm told that the ASI FAQ page at http://www.asindexing.org is excellent. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:03:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: QUESTION: Windows NT NOT indexing! I finally bit the bullet and am installing Windows NT 4.0 on my system. If anyone out there has experience with NT as opposed to Win 95, and has noted idiosyncracies or unexpected behaviour, please drop me a note off-list. I have already had some working experience with Win 95, so I understand navigation shouldn't ne a problem. Am also installing Norton Utilities, System Commander, CleanSweep and Partition Magic. Thanks in advance, y'all. Dave T. 75711.1637@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:33:28 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: E: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: E: Original tag data was -> Charles Anderson Subject: Re: QUESTION: Windows NT You have got to be the most optimistic person I have ever encountered! You might want to check Symantec's User Support Web site (it was http://service.symantec.com) for the hundreds and hundreds of postings almost daily on problems with Norton Utilities 3.0; watch out for Partition Magic and large capacity disk utilities such as EZ-Drive; don't let CleanSweep ever delete anything permanently, particularly DLLs - archive them off the hard disk somewhere. Mainly, good luck! Charles Anderson At 02:03 PM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >NOT indexing! I finally bit the bullet and am installing Windows NT 4.0 >on my system. If anyone out there has experience with NT as opposed >to Win 95, and has noted idiosyncracies or unexpected behaviour, please >drop me a note off-list. I have already had some working experience >with Win 95, so I understand navigation shouldn't ne a problem. > >Am also installing Norton Utilities, System Commander, CleanSweep >and Partition Magic. > >Thanks in advance, y'all. > >Dave T. >75711.1637@compuserve.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:16:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "SHARON J. STEINBERG" Subject: Re: Judaica questions In-Reply-To: <199806241828.OAA00545@alcor.concordia.ca> Dear Rachel, I don't think you have to be afraid of making a fool of yourself if you don't know whether thirteen or one hundred different listings of Isaacs are one and the same. Aren't you supposed to have some contact with the author of this book or an editor at least? Forgive my ignorance if I don't know the protocol for this, but it does seem a bit much to expect you to have all the answers off the top of your head. Good luck from Canada! Sharon Steinberg On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Rachel Rice wrote: > Delurking: > > My usual person to ask these questions of has gone on vacation so I must > ask of all you wonderful people these questions. > > Does anyone know if Rabad is Rabbi Asher ben David (of the 13th century?) > > When indexing ancient rabbis such as Asher ben David do you index them as > Asher ben David, or as David, Asher ben. I doubt ben David was an actual > surname, but was merely an identification, like Azriel of Gerona. > > If all you have is a first name of a rabbi, would you put Isaac (Rabbi) or > just Isaac? Especially confusing . . . > > If you have a ton of Isaacs, how do you know if they're all the same guy, > or separate indiduals? Rabbi Isaac, Isaac the Blind, Isaac of somewhere or > other. > > This book is a multi-authored book, actually of papers presented at a > conference on 13th c. Jewish mystical leaders. The article I'm suffering > through at the moment was written by a very eminent scholar, but I think he > doesn't speak English very well and so his writing in English is very > difficult to make out. In fact, I might even call it nearly > incomprehensible. > > Fortunately only about 4 people will read this book I think (there will > only be 500 copies printed) but I'm afraid of making a idiot of myself by > listing people separately who are one and the same, or vice versa, and of > leaving out important concepts, or putting in trivia. > > Thanks in advance!!!! Pray for me . . . > > Rachel > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Getting credit for your index Curiousity may have killed the cat, but hopefully it won't kill the newbie indexer! I'm so grateful for all of you who have taken the time to answer my questions. Thank you very much for your advice and for helping me make sense of some of this. I would have given up long ago if it weren't for you all! That said, I have a few more questions...I'm curious to know how you experienced indexers receive "credit" for your indexes. I have gathered from previous posts that the indexer holds a copyright on the index...is this the case? Also, is it at all common to have your name published in the book as the indexer? I have yet to see this in any indexes that I have been studying. One more question...how many of you request a copy of the book as part of pay, and how often do you get it? Thanks again for your help! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:47:23 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index Kari, I have mixed feelings about written credit for my indexes. I love it when I have full control of content and style. I feel that it is my work and I am proud of it. On the other hand, very often I do not agree with the publishers' style, length restrictions, or content decisions. In those cases I make suggestions as diplomatically as I can. If I don't get my way, which happens about half the time, I feel more like a hired gun than an author. In that case I do not want my name in print because it is not a true reflection of my best work. I have never asked for a copy of the book, but I think I will start. Once I paid $35 for a book I had indexed about World War I aircraft. It was an expensive gift for my little son! I really don't think it would have been too much to just ask the publisher for a copy. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index In-Reply-To: <199806251920.PAA15264@mail3.bellsouth.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Kari Miller > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 1998 2:26 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Getting credit for your index > > That said, I have a few more questions...I'm curious to know how you > experienced indexers receive "credit" for your indexes. Frankly, I'm less interested in seeing my name in the book than in seeing my name on the check...! The only time I've gotten an actual printed credit line was in a contracted series I did a number of years ago for Time-Life -- and that only happened because they (obviously) knew in advance who was going to index each book. Ordinarily, the final pages are already made up before the editor even begins calling around for an indexer. > I have gathered > from previous posts that the indexer holds a copyright on the index...is > this the case? I keep seeing this, too, and I admit I don't quite understand it. I occasionally compile an index on my own -- to older works of local history and genealogy -- but I also publish and market the thing, so of course I hold the copyright. But a back-of-the-book index is, almost by definition, a work-for-hire, and the hiree then has no rights in the copyright. > One more question...how many of you request a copy of the book as part > of pay, and how often do you get it? I had never requested this, but two of my regular clients routinely send me copies of the books I do for them, which is nice. Usually, I give them to the local library (after perhaps photocopying the indexs for my files) because they aren't books I would care to reread and are not in the few areas in which I sort of collect (okay, accumulate...) books. When I asked a couple other clients about sending me a copy of the book, there was generally a semi-embarrassed pause and then the editor would explain that such a thing was against policy, or it wasn't in their budget, or whatever.... > Kari Miller Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:40:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Information on Indexing In-Reply-To: <199806250409.AA08577@world.std.com> I've been away from the list for quite some time. I'm sorry to see that the problem of miscommunication continues. I think it helps to remember that most people feel (at least I do) that their professional reputation is on the line before a large indexing audience. This list is much more like a classroom, corporate meeting, or panel discussion than a large friendly conversation. Furthermore, when you read a message it seems like an impersonal public document, like a book, but the reply is not experienced by the sender as impersonal, any more than a book review is experienced as impersonal by an author. Thus the sender feels hurt by the reply, and the replyer usually ends up feeling hurt by the response to the reply, etc. Replies are made as if they were not being made directly to the original sender. Please remember -- they are. This list is a good opportunity to develop our communication skills in a new direction -- diplomacy! I often refrain from responding to the list for fear of misinterpretation. In spite of my current apprehension that people will interpret the following suggestion as a commercial message, I would like to inform any "newbies" that my Web site contains a quiz called "Is Indexing for You?" especially for beginners and pre-beginners. It tries to convey a sense of what aptitudes and life-style preferences are most suitable for becoming a feelance indexer and may answer some personal questions that other venues, especially FAQs, don't. Personally, I find the most helpful aspect of this list to be a resource for information at whatever level. Regards, Susan ============ Susan Holbert --- Indexing training videos --- 781-893-0514 "Basic Skills" & "Manuals and Online Help" http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:55:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth SanMiguel Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index If you have looked in any Macmillan Computer Publishing books (Que, SAMS, New Riders, Hayden, etc.), the indexer's name is almost always listed. However most indexers working for MCP are on staff or are freelancers who used to be on staff. ESM -----Original Message----- From: Kari Miller [mailto:karimiller@MINDSPRING.COM] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 1998 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Getting credit for your index Curiousity may have killed the cat, but hopefully it won't kill the newbie indexer! I'm so grateful for all of you who have taken the time to answer my questions. Thank you very much for your advice and for helping me make sense of some of this. I would have given up long ago if it weren't for you all! That said, I have a few more questions...I'm curious to know how you experienced indexers receive "credit" for your indexes. I have gathered from previous posts that the indexer holds a copyright on the index...is this the case? Also, is it at all common to have your name published in the book as the indexer? I have yet to see this in any indexes that I have been studying. One more question...how many of you request a copy of the book as part of pay, and how often do you get it? Thanks again for your help! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:07:54 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: infrared/longwave radiation URGENT I am currently indexing an edited collection of papers on climatology/meteorology and wonder if anyone can help with a query. Some authors refer to longwave radiation and others to infrared radiation, in relation to absorption by clouds, measurement by satellites, etc. etc. Are they the same sort of radiation, i.e. should all the subheadings be under longwave or infrared (with a cross-reference), or are they different? Also, what is the relationship between solar and shortwave radiation, which are also mentioned. This index has to be finished by tomorrow - these queries have just come up at the editing stage and it's too late to contact the editor. Thanks Margaret Binns ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:15:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index In-Reply-To: ELIZABETH_SANMIGUEL@Conseco.com "RE: Getting credit for your index" (Jun 25, 3:55pm) > If you have looked in any Macmillan Computer Publishing books (Que, > SAMS, New Riders, Hayden, etc.), the indexer's name is almost always > listed. However most indexers working for MCP are on staff or are > freelancers who used to be on staff. The same is true for books published by O'Reilly & Associates, and the indexer is usually someone on staff (me). In situations where the staff indexer doesn't write the index, the indexer's name does get mentioned. (This is true for about 95% of all published books; some books do not list any production names except the project manager.) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org webmaster, STC Indexing SIG: http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:20:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index Kari, You asked some excellent questions! Re: name on index This is a mixed bag. Some publishers usually put the indexer's name either on the top of the index, or where they list credits, in the front matter. Those are the ones who respect the indexer's intellectual labor and product the most, IMHO. I don't ask for my name on the index as a rule, because I don't know what the client will do to the index after I submit it. This was brought home to me by an event that horrified me. I had created a cumulative index out of 30 indexes of individual volumes for a long-time client. This cumulative index was an entire volume in itself. I had asked, in that case, to be credited for it in the book. I felt it was my due, since the entire book was my work. Well, was I glad that it didn't work out that my name *was* put in! Due to change of personnel at the publisher, somebody didn't follow through, and it was never added. Why was I glad? I finally received my copy of the cumulative volume, months after it appeared, and after I had formed a relationship with the editor's successor. To my horror, ALL of the SGML coding I had so painstakingly inserted hadn't translated, but was reproduced as part of the entries containing it, which led to awful, messy, long entries. [SGML coding is used to indicate the beginning and end of a change in type or location, such as and to indicate "start" a subscript and "end" a subscript. So the subscript "2" in a chemical formula came out 2 or something like that.] Throughout the entire book! Boy was I glad my name wasn't in the book. Taught me NOT TO ASK for it if I don't have control over what happens when the index leaves my hand. Now ........ that's just one experience. I *do* have other clients who do routinely put my name in their indexes, but they don't change those indexes after I submit them, so that's fine with me. I *do* like credit. Re: Portfolio copies of the book There's nothin wrong with asking. Some publisher will send them, some won't. Some will if you remind them a million times. Depends on the case. Re: Copyright. Mike is right. Many publishers have you sign a work for hire agreement, by dint of which you give up the copyright. If you don't have a written agreement, it's a dicey thing. In reality, they do once money crosses hands, I think. A reminder -- if *you* are writing a contract, or a proposal, on an index which you feel *may* end up on the web, and you have strong feelings about who holds copyright in that case, please negotiate on the issue of rights. That, like anything else, can be negotiable. It might mean that the publisher goes to another indexer who isn't interested in retaining copyright, because it simply is too much trouble to negotiate with you .... but that's fine. You're within your rights to bring the subject up, IMHO. That's an interesting aspect of intellectual property/cyber law. I think the jury may yet be out on those cases. Anybody have experience in this area? Either way -- I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences. Well, my two cents. Good questions. Regards, Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:13:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index In-Reply-To: <3592A447.C54BA92E@mindspring.com> I get credit in the book from 3 of my clients, and not from one and sometimes from the odd others. It's usually on a page that credits all the production staff, but for one publisher it's on the verso page. I always ask for a copy. Some publishers do, some don't, some sometimes, some all the time. I don't consider it part of pay but a benefit. I don't push it as I don't really want tons of books around that I might or might not ever read again. Sometimes I don't want credit!!! Like for one book that I got a call from the publisher saying I had screwed up the alphabetizing but they had fixed it and it had gone to print. I looked at my file and it was fine. Called in a panic thinking that somehow the subentries had lost their styles and that they had resorted all the subs into the mains. Turns out they had only thought the prepositions were out of order. I explained indexing conventions and they were very embarassed, blamed it on a new editor. My name is in that one. And thanks to everyone for all the help with the Judaica questions. I'm plowing through. Almost done, thank goodness and thanks to you all. And fortunately this publisher is one that doesn't give credit to the indexer, thank goodness. Rachel >Curiousity may have killed the cat, but hopefully it won't kill the >newbie indexer! I'm so grateful for all of you who have taken the time >to answer my questions. Thank you very much for your advice and for >helping me make sense of some of this. I would have given up long ago >if it weren't for you all! > >That said, I have a few more questions...I'm curious to know how you >experienced indexers receive "credit" for your indexes. I have gathered >from previous posts that the indexer holds a copyright on the index...is >this the case? Also, is it at all common to have your name published in >the book as the indexer? I have yet to see this in any indexes that I >have been studying. > >One more question...how many of you request a copy of the book as part >of pay, and how often do you get it? > >Thanks again for your help! > >Kari Miller Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:37:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Re: Getting credit for your indexes So if an indexer does not hold a copyright on an index, who does? Has this ever been a concern for anyone? I suppose I am just in "English teacher" mode, and I want to be able to figure this out to make sure I am correct. Also, does this mean that I can list (as experience) an index for a book even if it wasn't published? (Of course I would list it as unpublished). Thanks for the tips about the computer books...I have not paid any attention to those as I am mostly focusing on education (especially english and art). Thanks! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:38:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Betsy Schoeller Subject: Re: Judaica question Delurking: Considering the threads lately, this slightly off-topic question is risky right now, but I'm hoping someone out there can answer this one (I have been researching, with no luck): What is the significance of placing a stone on a tombstone of (I assume) a loved one? Thank you for your consideration in advance :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:51:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Judaica question In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980625213803.006e1d14@alphab.csd.uwm.edu> My understanding has always been that it's simply to show that someone was there. Rachel Delurking: > >Considering the threads lately, this slightly off-topic question is risky >right now, but I'm hoping someone out there can answer this one (I have been >researching, with no luck): > >What is the significance of placing a stone on a tombstone of (I assume) a >loved one? > >Thank you for your consideration in advance :) Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael C. Rossa" Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index (long) In-Reply-To: <199806251920.OAA29475@centurion.flash.net> At 03:25 PM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote: > >That said, I have a few more questions...I'm curious to know how you >experienced indexers receive "credit" for your indexes. I have gathered >from previous posts that the indexer holds a copyright on the index...is >this the case? Also, is it at all common to have your name published in >the book as the indexer? I have yet to see this in any indexes that I >have been studying. I agree with Mike Smith that an index is considered a work-for-hire and that, upon full payment to the indexer, all rights transfer to the publisher. The sample agreement that I have seen from ASI has a section for assignment of rights. I'm starting to have stronger feelings regarding credit in the book. I'm finding that some clients readily agree to furnish credit on the copyright page where others are often credited anyway (e.g. cover or jacket designers, photographers, and typesetters). This is easily added even if the book is otherwise completely finished. I think this can be useful for at least a couple of reasons. First, we have discussed in the past the fact that we labor in obscurity, and we lament that too often even those in publishing fail to appreciate or even understand indexing as a professional activity. I believe that every time an indexer receives credit in a book, and someone notices, not only that indexer but our entire profession has gained a little needed visibility. Also, for an indexer trying to build a business and a reputation, a credit can be valuable in marketing efforts. Finally, for any of us who choose to deal with low-paying clients (for whatever reason), getting credit can be a non-pay benefit to help compensate. Sure, we all know the horror stories of pitifully mangled indexes (oooh!). But also, hopefully, most of us would know enough not to jump to conclusions about an indexer's competence based on one wounded index. Especially since we can talk about them here! One of my favorites is the story told by one of our colleagues. (I know you're reading this, care to comment?) The publisher actually stretched the index to fill pages by printing it in what looks to me to be about 14 point type. The indexer told me she thinks it looks like a *first grade* index! I still chuckle about that one. >One more question...how many of you request a copy of the book as part >of pay, and how often do you get it? I have also found that, if I only ask, I can often get a complimentary copy of the book. Sometimes not. I think this can also be considered a nice benefit, and sometimes even useful to refer to. How do y'all feel about these thoughts? Sorry about the long rambling. Can you tell I'm between projects? Regards, Mike * * * * * * * * * * Michael C. Rossa Allied Editorial (972) 267-2537 (972) 267-2538 Fax rossa@flash.net * * * * * * * * * * "A ... mind, stretched by new ideas, can never go back to its original dimensions." Oliver Wendell Holmes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:46:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Judaica question In-Reply-To: <199806252140.OAA06997@firewall.persistence.com> At 04:38 PM 6/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >What is the significance of placing a stone on a tombstone of (I assume) a >loved one? Try http://www.uh.edu/~cleimer/ for info * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Lindsay Gower lindsay@persistence.com -or- lindsay_gower@hotmail.com Technical Writer Persistence Software, Inc. 1720 So. Amphlett Blvd #300 San Mateo CA (650) 372-3606 http://www.persistence.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:15:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: getting credit for your index Murphy's Law of Indexing Credit: The index you completed in four days under deadline pressure and stretched to 12-point type to meet the book's signature will always have your name listed in the credits. However, the flawless index you labored over for weeks will remain anonymous. Actually, my name is also listed in a handful of books that I never actually indexed. One of the hazards of working in-house is that our book assignments change frequently, so if the page layout team is working from an older or inaccurate schedule, your name can end up in all sorts of places. :) Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:34:11 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: E: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: E: Original tag data was -> Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index 1) The only publisher that ever used to include my name with the index was the American Library Association. I agree, it is not at all common. I have not heard anything about the indexer holding copyright to an index. >That said, I have a few more questions...I'm curious to know how you >experienced indexers receive "credit" for your indexes. I have gathered >from previous posts that the indexer holds a copyright on the index...is >this the case? Also, is it at all common to have your name published in >the book as the indexer? I have yet to see this in any indexes that I >have been studying. > 2) I always request a copy of the published book, but not as part of pay. When I send in the bill, I include a cover letter that thanks the editor for considering me for the job and also request a copy of the book when published to add to my collection. I can't think of once over the past 25+ years of free-lance indexing when the request hasn't been honored. In fact, the last time I made a major move, I donated a lot of books to the local library. Charles Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Copyrights At someone's suggestion, I checked out Nancy Mulvany's article on copyrights and indexing as work for hire. Although it seems that no one has the absolute definitive answer, one thing has been made clear to me from the responses that I received...it really doesn't matter that much, but it is something that I am glad I am more informed about. Thanks! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:01:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index In-Reply-To: <199806251920.MAA18564@smtp3.teleport.com> >One more question...how many of you request a copy of the book as part >of pay, and how often do you get it? Hi Kari Always, and never Martha Back Words ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:15:29 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Subject: NT Install Well, first I emailed this privately to Dave T., but then I thought it might be of general interest. It's kind of long, so if you don't care about my opinions on NT, stop reading NOW. Vicki --------- Hi Dave T. System Commander is a great product and works fine with NT. I agree with Charles Anderson that you might have trouble with the others. You might not need to have both Sys Commander and Partition Magic, since the latest Sys Commander version has many of the features of Partition Magic. A couple things to look out for: IMHO, NTFS file system can be a problem, just because if there's some problem and you want to boot to DOS and your hard drives are all partitioned with NTFS, you can't see any of them with DOS. So when I install NT, I usually stick with FAT for the boot disk (I put DOS, NT, Win95, and OS/2 on one partition) even though it's wasteful of disk space and slow. Then I have an NTFS partition just for "NT only" sorts of programs or data. Since you're installing Sys Commander, I assume you probably want multiple operating systems, so FAT is the one that's common to DOS, Windows, OS/2. You probably know all this already. Lots of nice features that come with device drivers for Win95 aren't so friendly when it comes to NT. The manufacturers haven't put all the bells and whistles on their NT versions. I actually switched from NT, which I loved, back to Win95, because my printers weren't supported in bidirectional mode in NT, and tape drive didn't work well. The other thing that annoyed me was that NT versions of things often costed more than the W95 versions. But I was running NT Server, so that problem doesn't occur as often with NT Workstation. All in all, NT is far superior. If you can get all the drivers you want, you will love it. The interface is very similar to W95. I learned NT first, so I think it is actually easier to find things. And you don't have to deal with that plug and play garbage. Good luck. If you run into any specific troubles, feel free to email me. I don't have an NT box running at the moment, but I might be able to help anyway. But I always had far fewer troubles setting up NT than I did W95, so you should have clear sailing! Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:50:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Copyrights In-Reply-To: <199806252255.PAA02880@powergrid.electriciti.com> My view on copyright is that it's better business to index than to go to court on iffy grounds. In other words, I am paid more to index than I suspect I would recoup by going to court on copyright fees. Now if the National Writers' Union or some similar group was advocating for me--that's another matter. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:27:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Virginia Dais Subject: Re: infrared/longwave radiation URGENT Long wave or short wave radiation probably refers to the wavelength! Depending on how technical your books is, the long wave and IR are probably equivalent (or at least close) and the shortwave and solar (probably UV) are close. Wavelength and energy (intensity of the radiation) are inversely proportional. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:15:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jimj Organization: Lonewolf Inc. Subject: Radiation Questions Long wave and short-wave radiation fall within the same category as they refer to manmade radiation or radio emissions. Solar radiation is the effect on the atmosphere of energy from the sun striking the atmosphere in the form of sun light. Infrared Radiation is another form of light energy that is in a spectrum that is not visible to the human eye. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:11:09 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Judaica question Betsy wrote: >Considering the threads lately, this slightly off-topic question is risky >right now, but I'm hoping someone out there can answer this one (I have been >researching, with no luck): > >What is the significance of placing a stone on a tombstone of (I assume) a >loved one? I believe it shows that someone has been there, to show love or respect. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:27:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index In-Reply-To: <199806251920.MAA27303@pacific.net> Kari asked: >One more question...how many of you request a copy of the book as part >of pay, and how often do you get it? I frequently put "and 1 copy of book" on my invoice. About 8 times out of 10 I receive the book. I think I've been fortunate, many indexers complain they never see their published work. I like having the books for many reasons, one of which is that they frequently serve as reference works for subsequent indexes I do. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:46:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Getting credit for your indexes In-Reply-To: <199806252131.OAA16660@pacific.net> Kari wrote: >So if an indexer does not hold a copyright on an index, who does? Has >this ever been a concern for anyone? Legally, the indexer definitely holds the copyright, determined in the courts in the late 1980s. The work-for-hire agreement exists in part specifically to assign the copyright to the publisher. Work-for-hire without a written contract essentially assigns the copyright and it would be a big fight in court. There are circumstances in which the indexer retains the copyright after publication. The question that has always been asked is, What benefit may one derive from this copyright? Technically, if retained, one should receive residuals from book sales. It was once proposed that perhaps one way for indexers to arrange finances with a publisher would be to receive a residual. I have no idea if anyone has tried this. In practice, holding the copyright to indexes seems to have little effect on indexers. However, when the courts found that indexers retained the copyright because an index is an independently created work, it gave indexers an argument for our worth. When I inform people that indexes are separately copyrighted it helps them to understand the nature of my work more than almost any other thing I can say. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:17:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: CFP's New Resource Page FAQ A Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) web page is being designed for all services the CFP represents. In the future, see the Resource Center Page of the CFP web site for updates. We will consolidate questions and answers from the bulletin board, chat sessions hosted by professionals, research, and contributions. If you would like to contribute to FAQs, please e-mail CFP at consortims@aol.com. The following are the main categories for indexing FAQs: INDEXING: Apprenticeships/Mentoring Books to Read Business Management Courses USDA Susan Holbert's Video Course Database Indexing Embedded Indexing Freelancing verses Inhouse employment General Information Indexing Content Analysis Indexing Process Marketing Resumes/Brochures Organizations ASI Software Macrex Indexing Cindex SKY Index Web Indexing Web Site Resources This Resource Page will also be available by e-mail for those that do not have Internet access. Simply request an e-mail copy. Susan Wilkerson consortims@aol.com http://members.aol.com/consortims ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:29:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Tombstones In-Reply-To: <199806252140.RAA43148@rs8.loc.gov> Betsy, Like many customs whose original meaning are lost and have changed over time (e.g., Easter eggs and bunnies and Christmas trees and Dec. 25th), tombstones originally probably had a more sinister purpose: I would hazard a guess that they were also intended to keep the dead person's spirit from rising from the grave. Not sure about the pagan Germanic relgions, but the Celts felt the dead envied the living and would do the living harm. Many other cultures also had mixed feelings towards the spirits of the dead. Oh, and many tombstones in Christian graveyards used to face east because of Jesus' Second Coming (He is supposed to arrive from that direction). Not sure that is done very often nowadays though. Sam Andrusko P.S. Any Wiccans on the list? Would be interesting to hear if tombstones have any symbolic meaning for them although I guess it's a rather minor theological point all in all. And for some reason I think Wiccan is based more on Celtic than Germanic/other beliefs?? On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Betsy Schoeller wrote: > Delurking: > > Considering the threads lately, this slightly off-topic question is risky > right now, but I'm hoping someone out there can answer this one (I have been > researching, with no luck): > > What is the significance of placing a stone on a tombstone of (I assume) a > loved one? > > Thank you for your consideration in advance :) > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:57:39 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: getting credit for your index Kari asked about getting copies of indexed books... I index mostly medical books, and I've never gotten a copy of the book with my index in it, but some publishers include the indexer's name in the front matter. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:56:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: getting credit for your index > Murphy's Law of Indexing Credit: > > The index you completed in four days under deadline > pressure and stretched to 12-point type to meet the book's > signature will always have your name listed in the credits. > However, the flawless index you labored over for weeks will > remain anonymous. > > > > > Actually, my name is also listed in a handful of books that I > never actually indexed. One of the hazards of working in-house > is that our book assignments change frequently, so if the page > layout team is working from an older or inaccurate schedule, > your name can end up in all sorts of places. :) > > Erika Millen > Indianapolis > No kidding! Not only are our indexes in-house, for our code indexes we obviously do not re-index the entire code every year, we merely update them. Therefore my name may be on an index that I've only updated once, and which has 10-15 years of other contributors to really thank for its structure and content! And this year I got my name prominently slapped on a couple of real dog indexes that we inherited from another company! You can only do so much in one supplement season. Oh, well. Such is life in our profession! :-) -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:13:13 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: index copyright Victoria, your comment on work-for-hire agreements as a means for publishers to acquire index copyright is intriguing. Indexers who are freelancers, it seems to me, are in a similar position, in regard to the publisher, to that of writers who agree with a publisher to produce a book. Some get upfront payments, and a few get periodic payments, prior to publication, and yet they retain copyright to their work. Hm. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:40:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: index copyright David Amundson writes: << Indexers who are freelancers, it seems to me, are in a similar position, in regard to the publisher, to that of writers who agree with a publisher to produce a book. Some get upfront payments, and a few get periodic payments, prior to publication, and yet they retain copyright to their work. Hm. >> In the computer publishing industry, many authors write on a work-for-hire basis where they receive a flat fee for the manuscript and the publisher holds the copyright to the material. If you check the credits pages of computer books, you'll often see that the copyright line lists the name of the publisher rather than the name of the author. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:50:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Binder Subject: Re: index copyright How an author gets paid (whether the book is work for hire or a royalty job) and who holds the copyright on the book are separate issues; each is spelled out in the author's contract and has no effect on the other. This is a good reason for an indexer to have an explicit written contract, if you're interested in retaining copyright. Otherwise, I would assume the publisher holds the copyright. Incidentally, I'm the author of a few books, and I do not hold the copyrights to them until they're out of print. Kate On 6/26/98 9:28 AM, INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU wrote: >From: amundsn@PENN.COM (David Amundson) >Sender: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Indexer's Discussion Group) >Reply-to: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Indexer's Discussion Group) >To: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L) > Victoria, your comment on work-for-hire agreements as a means for >publishers to acquire index copyright is intriguing. > Indexers who are freelancers, it seems to me, are in a similar >position, >in regard to the publisher, to that of writers who agree with a publisher >to produce a book. Some get upfront payments, and a few get periodic >payments, prior to publication, and yet they retain copyright to their >work. Hm. ------------------------------------- Kate Binder, Ursa Editorial Design UrsaDesign@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ursadesign ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:54:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: index copyright Someone made a comment earlier that seemed to connect the method of payment with copyright. Can't speak for all publishers (and I'll insert the usual caveat about not being a lawyer), but those really are two separate issues. Writers who *do* retain copyright sometimes receive multiple payments prior to publication, just as writers who *don't* retain copyright do. Writers who *do* retain copyright sometimes receive a flat fee, just as writers who *don't* retain copyright do. Writers who *do* retain copyright sometimes receive payments after publication, just as writers who *don't* retain copyright do. How a person is paid has more to do with the usual suspects: product budget, market, size of book, schedule.... Copyright issues aren't specifically tied to money. That's probably way too simplistic. But I just wanted to separate the idea that one necessarily drives the other. Larry Baker Gale Research Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:05:46 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: index copyright Right, payment and copyright are separate issues, and my point is that w e could achieve a little more recognition for our work, even while signing away residuals and such, by retaining copyright, which would (one presumes) have to be uniformly acknowledged in the front matter of books in which our indexes appear. I wonder if that approach would be of any help to us in situations in which publishers screw up indexes after we've made them. It MIGHT make publishers a bit more careful. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:09:52 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Philip W. Jones" Subject: Re: infrared/longwave radiation URGENT In-Reply-To: <199806252110.PAA27372@Rt66.com> from "J.A Binns" at Jun 25, 98 10:07:54 pm J.A Binns writes: > > Some authors refer to longwave radiation and others to infrared radiation, > > Also, what is the relationship between solar and shortwave radiation, which > are also mentioned. Well, Heather's the indexer, but this subject line caught my eye since I do climate research for a living... Anyway, infrared radiation is longwave radiation and the two terms are used interchangeably in climate research. Similarly, incoming solar radiation is mostly shortwave and those two are also used interchangeably in discussions of climate and/or meteorology. Hope this helps you in time, Phil /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | I probably know the authors... | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, New Mexico http://mack.rt66.com/hpjones/hpjones.html | \----------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:24:07 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: Getting credit for your indexes Victoria Baker writes: >>In practice, holding the copyright to indexes seems to have little effect on indexers. However, when the courts found that indexers retained the copyright because an index is an independently created work, it gave indexers an argument for our worth. When I inform people that indexes are separately copyrighted it helps them to understand the nature of my work more than almost any other thing I can say.<< Another point might be useful in getting payment for work done. If you hold the copyright on the index, you could threaten to not let the publisher use that work. IOW, you could hold up the publication of a book because it contains your copyrighted material. Just ask anyone who has tried to get permission to use some short piece of copyrighted material, like a few lines of a poem or novel. I'm working with a poet now who has dropped two rather good poems from a proposed collection of her poetry because they use epigrams from another poet who is dead, but whose literary estate is loathe to give permission for such use. (BTW, I'm not indexing here, just helping with selection and editing.) This, of course, would probably ruin the chances of any future work, but then you'd probably not want to work for this publisher anyway. art ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:50:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BALIPETZ@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: infrared/longwave radiation URGENT My take is that "longwave" is probably meant to refer to any radiation with wavelength longer than visible light--which would mean anything from infrared to radio or communication bands. Solar radiation is a mixture of both infrared (long) and shorter wavelengths such as visible light and probably some even shorter wavelengths such as ultraviolet or even x-rays. I hope this helps. Ben Lipetz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:25:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: index copyright In-Reply-To: <199806261411.HAA00103@powergrid.electriciti.com> At 02:05 PM 6/26/98 +0100, you wrote: which would (one presumes) >have to be uniformly acknowledged in the front matter of books in which our >indexes appear. Again, I am not an attorney &/or lawyer. But, copyright does not depend on notice. I'm not saying the notice is a bad thing, just that copyright exists independently and it's not required that copyright be published for there to be rights. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:40:58 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: infrared/longwave radiation URGENT Several folks have described solar radiation as short wave radiation and IR as longwave. Isn't IR part of the solar radiation spectrum? IR missiles, for instance, can be fooled by the sun. I believe this is one problem fighter pilots have when trying to lock onto an enemy fighter with IR missiles. UV would be at the opposite end of the spectrum. The sky is blue because the blue, shorter, wavelengths are scattered by the atmosphere as they enter. I suspect the answer to the question about long versus short wave radiation is that they are at opposite ends of a spectrum. How wide the spectrum is, however is another question. I would guess that the spectrum keeps getting wider as we get better instruments to measure it. art ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:46:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: QUESTION: Windows NT We have been using Windows NT in our office for two years now and I like it very much but be extremely careful with utilities. Utilities which are not designed primarily to operate in an NT environment can create serious problems. Also be sure to check the approved hardware list when purchasing new equipment. NT was designed for the business environment and certain products more often purchased by consumers may cause headaches. N.T. 4.0 is better than 3.51 but there are still some unexpected traps out there. DCS The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:53:46 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Philip W. Jones" Subject: Re: infrared/longwave radiation URGENT In-Reply-To: <199806261434.IAA17423@Rt66.com> from "Art Elser" at Jun 26, 98 08:40:58 am Art Elser writes: > > Several folks have described solar radiation as short wave radiation and > IR as longwave. Isn't IR part of the solar radiation spectrum? At the risk of extending a thread which is not related to indexing: Solar radiation is a classic blackbody spectrum and as such includes both short and longwave (including infrared) radiation. Almost all of the solar energy is in the shortwave portion of the spectrum (visible and ultraviolet), so we consider solar to be shortwave radiation even though the full spectrum extends to the infrared and beyond. In the climate community (the topic of the original post), we generally divide radiation as shortwave and longwave in the way we treat them in climate models. In our discussions, solar and shortwave are synonymous because there are essentially no terrestrial sources of shortwave radiation on atmospheric space and timescales. Shortwave (solar) radiation basically is either absorbed by ozone, absorbed by the Earth's surface or scattered back into space. Longwave, however, is much more complicated as there are many sources/sinks of longwave in the atmosphere and at the surface of the Earth. These include the classic greenhouse gasses (water, CO2, methane, etc.) as well as the blackbody radiation emitted by the warm surface of the Earth. All of these occur typically in the infrared. So anyway...as I responded earlier, we in the climate community use shortwave=solar and lump much of the rest into longwave=infrared. Phil (a climate researcher whose wife is the indexer) /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Everyone who stands in water should be taxed - D.P. Gumby | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, New Mexico http://mack.rt66.com/hpjones/hpjones.html | \----------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:26:45 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: infrared/longwave radiation replies Thanks to everyone who replied to my query (some off-list). Unfortunately, Philip Jones' reply, which really gave me the answer I wanted, came too late: >So anyway...as I responded earlier, we in the climate community >use shortwave=solar and lump much of the rest into longwave=infrared. > I have sent off the index with separate headings for infrared, longwave, solar and shortwave, and the editor can alter it if he wants. Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:23:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: question on crossreferences In-Reply-To: <199806240422.AA13728@world.std.com> RE: payment scheduled, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See also processing, scheduled payement processing scheduled payment, 1-1, 2, 5, 22, 4-4, 7, 11, 15, See alsopayment, scheduled I agree. These entries should NOT have crossrreferences. You only use xrefs to refer a reader/user to new page numbers, not just different terminology. Furthermore, unless "Processing" is a technical term and part of the program command structure, it is too general and not many people would look there. You would be better off using your time to reduce the number of undifferentiated page references. Make "Payment scheduling" your main entry if required and add subs. But I would guess that some of these pages only repeat inessential material and should be omitted. Susan Susan Holbert --- Indexing training videos --- 781-893-0514 "Basic Skills" & "Manuals and Online Help" http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Getting credit for your index In-Reply-To: <199806260417.XAA27393@mixcom.mixcom.com> Having my name in the book has never been important enough to me to actually negotiate for it. However, I have started including the following in my cover letter that goes back with the finished index: "If my name could be included somewhere in the back (say, with the designer's name), that would make me very happy. In any case, it was great working with you." Some of my clients automatically send me a portfolio copy of the book, some don't. If it's a book I especially want (perhaps one that I'll use as a reference book for others in the same field), then I always ask for a copy and usually get it. I've only had one client refuse. One book that I didn't ask for, and didn't get, a copy of turned out to be one my husband really needed and had to buy; wish I'd asked for that one. I agree with what others have said about copyright. My understanding is that once I'm paid, the publisher owns the copyright *unless* I were to have a contract that stipulates otherwise (which I don't bother with). Hey, I just had an idea. Has anyone ever used this to nudge late payers? That is, you say to the client, "You do realize of course that you can't publish my index until you pay me, because I hold the copyright?" Just a thought. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:54:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "ELDER, MELINDA" Subject: ATTN: Houston Indexers I am organizing an informal get together of Houston Indexers. If you are interested in getting together over lunch, dinner, or coffee to meet one another and visit, please let me know. Please include what days of the week and times of the day are best for you. Also, respond to me individually and I will respond directly to those interested. Thanks. Melinda Elder melder@mdck.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:51:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carol T. Bradford" Subject: copyright soapbox (longish) In-Reply-To: <199806261801.OAA20752@freedom.cce.cornell.edu> Carol Roberts wrote: >My understanding is that once I'm paid, the publisher owns the copyright >*unless* I were to have a contract that stipulates otherwise (which I don't >bother with) ---------- It's the other way around. In the USA, writers retain the copyright to what they've written, unconditionally, unless: 1) they are employees who produced the work as part of their employment---by definition "work-made-for-hire" or 2) they have specifically transferred their copyright to someone else, or 3) the work was produced under a "work-made-for-hire" contract, generally used when the work cannot stand on its own and be published separately, but is part (like a TOC or an index) of a larger work. You do not relinquish the copyright simply by being paid. You have to agree to do so, on paper. In the absence of any other written agreement, you license the one-time use of your work (publication rights) to the publisher, who needs to negotiate with you again if your work is to be published in another form (anthology, electronic, whatever) This is a burning issue with freelance writers right now. I was offered a contract where the publisher demanded "all the rights to the work throughout the universe in any and all media now in existence or hereafter developed." Think about the possibilities there. All this for no extra compensationGeneva. No, thanksGeneva. http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1txt.html what's a copyright http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ09 what's a "work-made-for-hire" http://www.asja.org some of the freelance issues I am not a lawyer either, but I've looked into this subject for self-preservation purposes. Carol Bradford Syracuse, New York, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:10:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: copyright soapbox (longish) In a message dated 98-06-26 15:52:06 EDT, you write: << In the absence of any other written agreement, you license the one-time use of your work (publication rights) to the publisher, who needs to negotiate with you again if your work is to be published in another form (anthology, electronic, whatever) >> If the indexer holds the copyright, is the publisher legally binded to use the same indexer to update the index of new editions? Susan Wilkerson consortims@aol.com http://members.aol.com/consortims ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:56:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rick Hurd Subject: Advice I had a lady contact me about a week ago requesting me to write an index for a 923 page manuscript written by 19 different committees about the prison system here in the United States. She said it was going to have a tight deadline and that I would receive it by the 1st of July and she would have to have the index by the 20th . After careful consideration I decided to take on this project which paid $3.00 per page. Today I received word that I would receive it on the 7th of July and would have to have the index written and returned by the 15th. Being my second paid indexing project, all this is making me a little apprehensive. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps having someone else index half of it has crossed my mind. Sincerely, Rick Hurd, Rick's Indexing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:57:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elaine & Philip Subject: Re: ATTN: Houston Indexers In-Reply-To: <199806261900.OAA27388@hal-pc.org> Hi Melinda - My name is Elaine Tucker. I am just getting started (at least trying to) in indexing. In the process now of sending samples to publishers. I would love to meet other indexers. At present almost anytime is good for me. I live in the Pearland area and am very close to the Beltway so any place is OK. Look forward to hearing from you. At 01:54 PM 6/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am organizing an informal get together of Houston Indexers. If you >are interested in getting together over lunch, dinner, or coffee to meet >one another and visit, please let me know. Please include what days of >the week and times of the day are best for you. Also, respond to me >individually and I will respond directly to those interested. Thanks. > >Melinda Elder >melder@mdck.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:11:29 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: Re: Advice In-Reply-To: <199806262057.QAA03338@jane.penn.com> At 04:56 PM 6/26/98 EDT, Rick Hurd wrote: I had a lady contact me about a week ago ... She said ... that I would receive it by the 1st of July and she would have to have the ... index by the 20th . After careful consideration I decided to take on this project which paid $3.00 per page. Today I received word that I would receive it on the 7th of July and would have to have the index written and returned by the 15th.... all this is making me a little apprehensive.... __________ Rick: I'd make her stick to her original time schedule. She can always take her book to someone else (not me!). If she treats indexers like that, you won't want indexes from her in the future anyway. You COULD divide it up, but with an index with real conceptual content like I'm sure this one has, you'd have quite a job reconciling all the pieces--editing could be a real challenge. David Amundson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:45:59 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: E: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: E: Original tag data was -> Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Advice If it's 923 manuscript pages, I would think you would be looking quite at bit less in final page form - maybe 400 pages? Then take away non-indexable stuff and you have even less. And what is the approximate indexing density - five entries per page? 10? 3? Lots of author references? I can turn a 300 page book around in 12 hours(spread over several days naturally - I don't have fingers of steel)so if it isn't really 923 final pages, it shouldn't be so bad. I would definitely recommend inputting as you read without doing a preliminary read though - to save time (I assume you are using either Cindex or Macrex?) Returned how? Do you need to allow a day for Fedex overnight? Or can you e-mail the night before the deadline? If you try to divide the work among two people, even if there are 19 different authors, I would bet you will spend more time at the end trying to make entries consistent and won't gain anything in the end. This kind of thing does happen and I've found meeting the deadline, even if it looks unreasonable, does gain you a lot of points with the editor. On the other hand, one think I tell my editors is that I have never missed a deadline - so if you really think it's impossible, maybe it's better to get out of it. IMHO that would be better than being late. Charles Anderson At 04:56 PM 6/26/98 EDT, you wrote: >I had a lady contact me about a week ago requesting me to write an index for a >923 page manuscript written by 19 different committees about the prison system >here in the United States. She said it was going to have a tight deadline and >that I would receive it by the 1st of July and she would have to have the >index by the 20th . After careful consideration I decided to take on this >project which paid $3.00 per page. > >Today I received word that I would receive it on the 7th of July and would >have to have the index written and returned by the 15th. Being my second paid >indexing project, all this is making me a little apprehensive. > >Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps having someone else index >half of it has crossed my mind. > >Sincerely, >Rick Hurd, >Rick's Indexing. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:48:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Tortora Subject: Re: Advice In a message dated 6/26/98 5:10:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RHurd44884@AOL.COM writes: << I had a lady contact me about a week ago requesting me to write an index for a 923 page manuscript written by 19 different committees about the prison system here in the United States. She said it was going to have a tight deadline and that I would receive it by the 1st of July and she would have to have the index by the 20th . After careful consideration I decided to take on this project which paid $3.00 per page. Today I received word that I would receive it on the 7th of July and would have to have the index written and returned by the 15th. Being my second paid indexing project, all this is making me a little apprehensive. >> Rick, Unless you are prepared to work 18 hours a day for those 8 days, I would not accept the job. Or you could make her stick to the original schedule. Seldom do I receive an "on time" proof. If you have the time to devote, you could renegotiate the original per page fee to reflect the short turn around time. I also agree with David who says that splitting it up would be a bad idea. Good luck. Sue Tortora Tortora Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:57:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Advice Rick 900 pages in one week would be tough for even the most seasoned indexer. I wouldn't want the job either, and I've been indexing forever. You could try telling the client that you *could* produce an index, but a very light index, and no quibbling. You would not be able to get into the text AT ALL in terms of concepts. Just broad topic areas, working from headings only, etc. And for the same $3/page or perhaps, if you're gutsy, for more -- call it a rush fee. So this makes it more possible. A very, very light index for the same money as a heavy one. I would refuse to do a full index in that time. Period. If you lose the job, that's fine. You don't want it! Tell the client you need more time for your usual good indexing job. That's it. Believe me, it will be no loss. The client is playing hardball with you. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. You need proper time to do a professional job. If you don't, you'll be (1) underpaid, (2) overworked, and (3) set up for your client to complain about either the quality of your index, or lateness if you have a problem. Don't go there. Hope this helps you handle the situation. Scheduling and dealing with this type of client is never easy, even for the experienced indexer. It's a constant challenge. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 03:29:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laurie McBride Subject: Dir, Tech and Coll Svs Vacancy--Seattle, WA This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BDA17B.BE03A080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Colleague:=20 The Seattle Public Library, one of the most dynamic public=20 libraries in the nation, is seeking top-notch candidates for=20 the position of Director of Technical and Collection Services=20 and we are asking for your assistance in spreading the word.=20 Attached is brief description of the position we are=20 currently recruiting for. We would appreciate your sharing the=20 enclosed job bulletin with anyone you believe might be qualified=20 and interested in applying for these positions.=20 Thank you, in advance, for any assistance you are able to provide.=20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *=20 Director of=20 Technical and Collection Services=20 Pay Range: $59,195-$71,869 annually=20 The Director of Technical and Collection Services provides=20 leadership in the acquisition, cataloging, processing and=20 distribution of new books and materials for the Library system.=20 JOB OVERVIEW:=20 The Director of Technical and Collection Services serves as=20 advisor to the City Librarian and senior administrators regarding=20 strategies for purchasing, cataloging, and processing of Library=20 books and materials; and provides leadership and counsel=20 regarding electronic resources and emerging issues regarding=20 Internet use and intellectual freedom. This position also directs=20 the work of two units, Bibliographic Services and Collection=20 Development, through subordinate supervisors.=20 HOW TO APPLY:=20 You may request a complete career opportunity bulletin by e-mail at human.resources@spl.org or by calling (206) 386-4121.=20 You can also check out the SPL Internet Homepage (www.spl.org). This posting opens June 8, 1998 and will remain open until sufficient=20 applications have been received or until close of business on July 31, = 1998,=20 whichever comes first.=20 THE SEATTLE PUBLIC LIBRARY=20 PROUDLY PROMOTES DIVERSITY IN EMPLOYMENT.=20 If accommodations are needed during the selection process,=20 please let us know. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BDA17B.BE03A080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Colleague:
The Seattle Public Library, one = of the most=20 dynamic public
libraries in the nation, is seeking top-notch = candidates for=20
the position of Director of Technical and Collection Services =
and we are=20 asking for your assistance in spreading the word.
Attached is brief=20 description of the position we are
currently recruiting for. We = would=20 appreciate your sharing the
enclosed job bulletin with anyone you = believe=20 might be qualified
and interested in applying for these positions. =
Thank=20 you, in advance, for any assistance you are able to provide.
* * * * = * * * *=20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Director of =
Technical=20 and Collection Services
Pay Range: $59,195-$71,869 annually
The = Director=20 of Technical and Collection Services provides
leadership in the = acquisition,=20 cataloging, processing and
distribution of new books and materials = for the=20 Library system.
JOB OVERVIEW:
The Director of Technical and = Collection=20 Services serves as
advisor to the City Librarian and senior = administrators=20 regarding
strategies for purchasing, cataloging, and processing of = Library=20
books and materials; and provides leadership and counsel =
regarding=20 electronic resources and emerging issues regarding
Internet use and=20 intellectual freedom. This position also directs
the work of two = units,=20 Bibliographic Services and Collection
Development, through = subordinate=20 supervisors.
HOW TO APPLY:
You may request a complete career = opportunity=20 bulletin by e-mail
at human.resources@spl.org or by calling (206) = 386-4121.=20
You can also check out the SPL Internet Homepage
(www.spl.org).
This posting opens June = 8, 1998=20 and will remain open until sufficient
applications have been = received or=20 until close of business on July 31, 1998,
whichever comes first. =
THE=20 SEATTLE PUBLIC LIBRARY
PROUDLY PROMOTES DIVERSITY IN EMPLOYMENT. =
If=20 accommodations are needed during the selection process,
please let = us=20 know.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BDA17B.BE03A080-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 03:30:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laurie McBride Subject: Dir, Tech and Coll Svs Vacancy--Seattle, WA This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BDA17B.EEF62500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Colleague:=20 The Seattle Public Library, one of the most dynamic public=20 libraries in the nation, is seeking top-notch candidates for=20 the position of Director of Technical and Collection Services=20 and we are asking for your assistance in spreading the word.=20 Attached is brief description of the position we are=20 currently recruiting for. We would appreciate your sharing the=20 enclosed job bulletin with anyone you believe might be qualified=20 and interested in applying for these positions.=20 Thank you, in advance, for any assistance you are able to provide.=20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *=20 Director of=20 Technical and Collection Services=20 Pay Range: $59,195-$71,869 annually=20 The Director of Technical and Collection Services provides=20 leadership in the acquisition, cataloging, processing and=20 distribution of new books and materials for the Library system.=20 JOB OVERVIEW:=20 The Director of Technical and Collection Services serves as=20 advisor to the City Librarian and senior administrators regarding=20 strategies for purchasing, cataloging, and processing of Library=20 books and materials; and provides leadership and counsel=20 regarding electronic resources and emerging issues regarding=20 Internet use and intellectual freedom. This position also directs=20 the work of two units, Bibliographic Services and Collection=20 Development, through subordinate supervisors.=20 HOW TO APPLY:=20 You may request a complete career opportunity bulletin by e-mail at human.resources@spl.org or by calling (206) 386-4121.=20 You can also check out the SPL Internet Homepage (www.spl.org). This posting opens June 8, 1998 and will remain open until sufficient=20 applications have been received or until close of business on July 31, = 1998,=20 whichever comes first.=20 THE SEATTLE PUBLIC LIBRARY=20 PROUDLY PROMOTES DIVERSITY IN EMPLOYMENT.=20 If accommodations are needed during the selection process,=20 please let us know. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BDA17B.EEF62500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Colleague:
The Seattle Public Library, one = of the most=20 dynamic public
libraries in the nation, is seeking top-notch = candidates for=20
the position of Director of Technical and Collection Services =
and we are=20 asking for your assistance in spreading the word.
Attached is brief=20 description of the position we are
currently recruiting for. We = would=20 appreciate your sharing the
enclosed job bulletin with anyone you = believe=20 might be qualified
and interested in applying for these positions. =
Thank=20 you, in advance, for any assistance you are able to provide.
* * * * = * * * *=20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Director of =
Technical=20 and Collection Services
Pay Range: $59,195-$71,869 annually
The = Director=20 of Technical and Collection Services provides
leadership in the = acquisition,=20 cataloging, processing and
distribution of new books and materials = for the=20 Library system.
JOB OVERVIEW:
The Director of Technical and = Collection=20 Services serves as
advisor to the City Librarian and senior = administrators=20 regarding
strategies for purchasing, cataloging, and processing of = Library=20
books and materials; and provides leadership and counsel =
regarding=20 electronic resources and emerging issues regarding
Internet use and=20 intellectual freedom. This position also directs
the work of two = units,=20 Bibliographic Services and Collection
Development, through = subordinate=20 supervisors.
HOW TO APPLY:
You may request a complete career = opportunity=20 bulletin by e-mail
at human.resources@spl.org or by calling (206) = 386-4121.=20
You can also check out the SPL Internet Homepage
(www.spl.org).
This posting opens June = 8, 1998=20 and will remain open until sufficient
applications have been = received or=20 until close of business on July 31, 1998,
whichever comes first. =
THE=20 SEATTLE PUBLIC LIBRARY
PROUDLY PROMOTES DIVERSITY IN EMPLOYMENT. =
If=20 accommodations are needed during the selection process,
please let = us=20 know.

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BDA17B.EEF62500-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:45:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Advice Rick wrote: << I would receive it by the 1st of July and she would have to have the index by the 20th . After careful consideration I decided to take on this project which paid $3.00 per page. Today I received word that I would receive it on the 7th of July and would have to have the index written and returned by the 15th. >> I always tell editors when this happens: "I committed to the due date based on the date I received the pages, and I would need that amount of time to finish this index, which would make it due on the 27th. Of course, I will do my very best to get it to you as soon as I possibly can. But because, once I commit to a deadline you can count on it, I'm very careful only to commit to deadlines I'm sure I can meet, I can only promise the 27th." If I think I could get it done earlier if I pushed, I say, "This new schedule would, of course, constitute a rush, and thus be subject to higher fees (add fifty cents a page or so--how much do other people add? I probably don't add enough)." And since this is your second job, you should try to keep it if possible--but if she wants it in a week she should pay you more. Best of luck! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:01:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rick Hurd Subject: Re: Advice In a message dated 26-Jun-98 5:50:27 PM Central Daylight Time, POSTMASTER@BINGVMB.BITNET writes: << If it's 923 manuscript pages, I would think you would be looking quite at bit less in final page form - maybe 400 pages? Then take away non-indexable stuff and you have even less. And what is the approximate indexing density - five entries per page? 10? 3? Lots of author references? I can turn a 300 page book around in 12 hours(spread over several days naturally - I don't have fingers of steel)so if it isn't really 923 final pages, it shouldn't be so bad. I would definitely recommend inputting as you read without doing a preliminary read though - to save time (I assume you are using either Cindex or Macrex?) Returned how? Do you need to allow a day for Fedex overnight? Or can you e-mail the night before the deadline? If you try to divide the work among two people, even if there are 19 different authors, I would bet you will spend more time at the end trying to make entries consistent and won't gain anything in the end. This kind of thing does happen and I've found meeting the deadline, even if it looks unreasonable, does gain you a lot of points with the editor. On the other hand, one think I tell my editors is that I have never missed a deadline - so if you really think it's impossible, maybe it's better to get out of it. IMHO that would be better than being late. Charles Anderson >> Yes, I did leave out some important detail. The pages are double spaced on standard paper 8.5 "x 11". There is no limit on number of entries per page. Nor are there any agreement on the number of entries per page. But it seems to me that the lady wants as many as possible with many cross references. No author references, but there will be a sperate index for contacts listed at the end of each chapter. There are only a few contact persons listed at the end of each chapter. I have been given the unfinished manuscript so that I can read it through before I receive the final for indexing. I use Cindex for windows. I can send it by e-mail. Thank you, and everyone else, for your advice. Sincerely, Rick Hurd. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:16:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Advice In-Reply-To: <199806270415.XAA09039@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Yes, I did leave out some important detail. Even if the typeset pages come in at around 400 pages, I have to agree with everything Janet Perlman said. And I would turn this job down if they can't give you more time. I've done 400 pages in a week (for $4 a page), but it was *extremely* difficult, even though I've been indexing for 5 yrs. and am reasonably fast. I know how hard it must be, as a new indexer, for you to turn down work. We've all been there. But believe me, there will be other work for you. You don't have to learn the trade through trial by fire. If you decide to make a counteroffer, along the lines Janet suggested (the very, very light index), and the client accepts, I would put it in writing. Good luck, whichever way you go with it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 10:50:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Manley Subject: Business Name? I am trying to think of a business name but I don't want copycat anyone. I am thinking about: GuideWords Indexing Does anyone already have this as their business name? Susan GuideWords Indexing Gideword@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:20:35 -0500 Reply-To: rumpergj@jmu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rumper, Gail J" Subject: thank you again Thank you to everyone who has answered my recent queries and given me excellent and valuable advice. You have helped me immensely. Gail -- Rumper, Gail J rumpergj@jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:12:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Rapper's name I need help - quick! I'm indexing a book in which a rap artist called Flavor Flave is mentioned. How should I index his name? Should I treat "Flave" as his surname, or is the name one and indivisible, like Howlin' = Wolf or Little Richard? "Flave, Flavor" looks weird. = Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:25:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. Shaw" Subject: Re: Rapper's name In-Reply-To: <199806271915.PAA04851@camel23.mindspring.com> Christine, I've never heard of this person, but I did a web search and found 18 sites that mention him or her. The search URL is: http://www.hotbot.com/default.asp?_v=2&OPs=MDRTP&MT=Flavor+Flave&SM=name&DV= 7&RG=.com&DC=10&DE=2&submit=SEARCH I'd look at the individual URLs, but you'd be a better judge than I. Cheers, Deborah At 03:12 PM 27-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >I need help - quick! I'm indexing a book in which a rap artist called >Flavor Flave is mentioned. How should I index his name? Should I treat >"Flave" as his surname, or is the name one and indivisible, like Howlin' = > >Wolf or Little Richard? "Flave, Flavor" looks weird. = > > >Christine > >************************************************************* >Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services >Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB >Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 >email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com >or 106234.1745@compuserve.com >************************************************************* > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:26:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: ATTN: Houston Indexers Melinda, I would enjoy a Houston indexers get together. Lunches are best for me with my current schedule at a location not too far outside the Loop. We might try one of the many Cafe Express locations around town. They are inexpensive and congenial to groups. Let me know what you decide. Beth ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:35:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Rapper's name I'd go with "Flavor Flave," especially considering that anyone looking for Flave would certainly find that entry. I also can't imagine anyone looking under the letter J, for instance, to find "LL Cool J," ot T to find "Ice T." What book, Christine? (When you have time, of course.) Best, Craig Brown On 6/27/98 14:12 Christine Shuttleworth wrote: >I need help - quick! I'm indexing a book in which a rap artist called >Flavor Flave is mentioned. How should I index his name? Should I treat >"Flave" as his surname, or is the name one and indivisible, like Howlin' = > >Wolf or Little Richard? "Flave, Flavor" looks weird. = > > >Christine > >************************************************************* >Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services >Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB >Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 >email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com >or 106234.1745@compuserve.com >************************************************************* > ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:58:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Binder Subject: Re: Rapper's name Christine-- The author has the name wrong, if that's how it is in the text. There's no "e" on the end, according to my rock 'n' roll writer husband. Also, he says, the name is two words, but they're indivisible, like Little Richard. So it should be listed as Flavor Flav. Kate PS: Thanks a lot, by the way. Now I have to listen to my husband the human jukebox singing the collected works of Flavor Flav all weekend. ;-) On 6/27/98 3:15 PM, INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU wrote: >From: ChristineShuttleworth@COMPUSERVE.COM (Christine Shuttleworth) >Sender: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Indexer's Discussion Group) >Reply-to: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Indexer's Discussion Group) >To: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L) >I need help - quick! I'm indexing a book in which a rap artist called >Flavor Flave is mentioned. How should I index his name? Should I treat >"Flave" as his surname, or is the name one and indivisible, like Howlin' = > >Wolf or Little Richard? "Flave, Flavor" looks weird. = > > >Christine > >************************************************************* >Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services >Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB >Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 >email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com >or 106234.1745@compuserve.com >************************************************************* ------------------------------------- Kate Binder, Ursa Editorial Design UrsaDesign@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ursadesign ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 04:34:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Rapper's name Thanks to several people for helping me out with Flavor Flav. Kate, your husband is right - there's no "e" in Flav. Deborah Shaw pointed me in the= direction of a web site which confirmed this, and I will point out the error to the client. His real name is Charles Drayton and he is a member= of the rap group Public Enemy. I am now convinced that I should index him= as Flavor Flav - no inversion. = Many thanks again to all you helpful people. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:03:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: Rapper's name Dear Christine: I'd index him as Flavor Flave. It would be treated as a business name -- Roebuck, Sears and just doesn't seem right. See also LL Cool J, MC Hammer and Notorious BIG, The. Enjoy, Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carol T. Bradford" Subject: Re: copyrights In-Reply-To: <199806262010.QAA26968@freedom.cce.cornell.edu> >If the indexer holds the copyright, is the publisher legally binded to use the >same indexer to update the index of new editions? > >Susan Wilkerson This is where the intellectual property lawyer steps in! Carol Bradford Syracuse, New York, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:43:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: note cards versus software First, thanks to all who responded to my questions about copyrights. It has been a gray area for me since my days editing at the Florida Department of Education, when I had to research articles for use in testing materials. Now I feel that I have a better handle on it. I'd like to know what you all think the pros and cons of indexing using software versus the index card approach are. I am writing an article for the Tennessee Regional Group of Indexer's web page, but I would also like to know for myself. I myself like the index card approach because I like having the cards in my hand, but I'm sure that the time consideration would be a huge factor when I begin to get paid work. I've also downloaded SKYIndex from the Internet. Does anyone have any strong preferences for one type of indexing software? Thanks! -- Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:07:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. Shaw" Subject: Re: note cards versus software In-Reply-To: <199806281838.OAA16795@camel23.mindspring.com> At 02:43 PM 28-06-98 -0400, Kari Miller wrote: >I'd like to know what you all think the pros and cons of indexing using >software versus the index card approach are. I believe that an indexer should learn with cards, just as everyone should learn to add and subtract mentally, so that a calculator is just a time-saving tool. It's a good foundation in the principles and good practice in the methods. A plus is that if you lose power, you can still work. When Hurricane Fran knocked out our electricity for almost three weeks (I live in a forest), I just hauled out my banker's box, alphabetical guides, and index cards, put a new ribbon in my father's upright Royal manual typewriter (on which I had learned to type as a child), and continued to work. Try all the software and read the reviews before you buy. Everyone has their individual preference; you need the one that complements your workstyle. Cheers, Deborah shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:38:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Charles Anderson? HEY CHARLES! You posted me a note recently but the listserv's "parser" could not determine your address. I would like to reply. Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:19:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: note cards versus software In-Reply-To: <199806281838.OAA19806@mail2.bellsouth.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Kari Miller > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 1998 1:44 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: note cards versus software > > First, thanks to all who responded to my questions about copyrights. It > has been a gray area for me since my days editing at the Florida > Department of Education, when I had to research articles for use in > testing materials. Now I feel that I have a better handle on it. > > I'd like to know what you all think the pros and cons of indexing using > software versus the index card approach are. I am writing an article > for the Tennessee Regional Group of Indexer's web page, but I would also > like to know for myself. I myself like the index card approach because > I like having the cards in my hand, but I'm sure that the time > consideration would be a huge factor when I begin to get paid work. > > I've also downloaded SKYIndex from the Internet. Does anyone have any > strong preferences for one type of indexing software? > > Thanks! > -- > Kari Miller > This was kicked around a little in this group a short while back. I think the consensus was that the "shoebox" method of indexing, which a few of us oldtimers did in the days before PCs, is useful as a learning tool, but that no sane indexer would do without software in this day and age. *You* still have to do the thinking and make the decisions, but the *software* makes short work of all the scut-work, like sorting, consolidating, formatting, substituting revised terms for old ones, etc. I could certainly do a book index with a stack of note cards and a manual typewriter even now, but it would take me five times as long and I wouldn't do anything like the amount of revising and editing that OUGHT to be done. As for specific indexing programs, everybody has their favorite. Personally, I've used Cindex since the very month the first DOS version appeared, and I wouldn't use anything else at this point. (I feel the same way about WordPerfect.) Macrex is also supposed to be pretty good. I suspect those two programs account for 3/4 of all indexers -- maybe more than that. I'm also active in genealogy, and SKYIndex used to be heavily promoted for indexing homemade family histories, but I gather it's functions have recently been extended. I would suggest you go to the Cindex and Macrex web sites and download the demos and play around with them some. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:23:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: copyrights In-Reply-To: <199806281715.KAA23498@powergrid.electriciti.com> At 09:55 PM 6/27/98 -0400, you wrote: >>If the indexer holds the copyright, is the publisher legally binded to use the >>same indexer to update the index of new editions? >> >>Susan Wilkerson > >This is where the intellectual property lawyer steps in! > I'm not particularly smart (intellectual), have little property, and am not a lawyer, but copyright only deals in right for re-use of what has been created (a publisher cannot automatically, i would suspect, re-code a print-only index into html without payment to or permission from the original indexer. Update rights would need to be arranged for through a contract specifying that right. Unless a publisher is VERY certain of an indexer's skills and life expectancy, it's unlikely that a publisher would agree to such a stipulation. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com